The Arachidonic Acid Help Guide

Jiigzz said:
I literally cannot argue with you. Your claim is unfounded, your argument is moot.
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You're the one making claims at this point. I already srated that you could be right or wrong but you're incessantly pushing for you being right.

Of course you can't really argue with me. LoL. There's nothing to argue because at this point, I've stated many times, I'm not an expert (and let's face it, nor are you), so go consult the expert. Duh.
 
Thread went from solid info to a drama show.
 
kissdadookie said:
You're the one making claims at this point. I already srated that you could be right or wrong but you're incessantly pushing for you being right.
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Lol, no; I am basing what I know entirely off the evidence which you have failed to provide. Anybody can make a claim but in doing so, you must provide evidence to suggest the claim has actual backing and is reasonable. You state that 6 grams of Fish oil will not displace/ compete with Ara, yet there is evidence upon evidence suggesting this is indeed the case.

As you are claiming this is wrong and Bill is right, you need to state as too why this is. You fail to provide, I will assume that you are unable to back your claim and that your argument ends with nothing more than "well anecdote paints a different picture".

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In any case I have a feeling you hate admitting that you don't know where to find the evidence , nor have you found any and so you are trying to shift the blame to me to look because you are unable to.

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Pseudoscience relies on some of the following criteria:

1) Has a negative attitude to skepticism

2) Does not require critical thinking

3) Does not require experimental repeatability

4) Does not require tests

5) Does not accept falsifying data that would disprove a hypothesis

6) Uses vague language

7) Relies on anecdotal evidence

8) No self-correction

9) Makes absolute claims

10) Produces no useful knowledge
 
Does anyone know if Bill has 'discussed' this with neuron, Coop or Synapsin in the past either here or at bbcom? Ive read the maximising ArA thread cover to cover and cant recall a debate of much substance.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Does anyone know if Bill has 'discussed' this with neuron, Coop or Synapsin in the past either here or at bbcom? Ive read the maximising ArA thread cover to cover and cant recall a debate of much substance.
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I've seen him post here on AM a few times but that's it. Can't recall exactly what threads or when.
 
uwotmate said:
why is ara suggested to cycle for 50 days then 50 days off? what happens if you just keep on going without cycling off?
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You stop fitting through doors.

Lol no just is smart to cycle anything, to maintain effectiveness and with this you would probably not want year-round inflammation
 
uwotmate said:
why is ara suggested to cycle for 50 days then 50 days off? what happens if you just keep on going without cycling off?
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For n3:n6 ratio and long term health. Generally you don't want n6 high for an extended period of time while n3 levels being so low (as most cease dosing while running ArA)
 
You actually brought up people taking 6gs of Fish Oil earlier in the thread kissdadookie
Will L. acknowledges in his IronRadio interview that there is limited direct study about this in exercising humans, but this was the closest thing I could find to a study measuring fatty acid displacement in lipid membranes.

This rodent study, where rats were fed the equivalent of 5.5g of DHA per day resulted in a 40% reduction in lipid membrane ARA content:

Likewise, consumption of the equivalent of 5.5g ARA resulted in a 68% increase in lipid membrane ARA content.

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uwotmate said:
why is ara suggested to cycle for 50 days then 50 days off? what happens if you just keep on going without cycling off?
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You are *probably* fine for over 50 days, but the best safety data we have is 50 days, and I wouldn't recommend that people exceed documented safety data.

--

Generally speaking, if you are lifting hard and releasing your muscular ARA stores, you shouldn't have excessive accumulation issues.

That said, again, defer to safety recommendations :p
 
Im completely ignorant when it comes to fish oil studies.

Is there (as far as the science is concerned) supposed to be some sort of 'direct' ergogenic/hypertrophic benefit to supplementing with fish oil, or is doing so really just a general health measure (similiar to supp'ing with a multi)?
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Im completely ignorant when it comes to fish oil studies. Is there supposed to be some sort of 'direct' ergogenic/hypertrophic benefit to supplementing with fish oil, or is doing so really just a general health measure (similiar to supp'ing with a multi)?
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General health mostly.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Im trying to understand/empathise with those who are reluctant to suspend fish oil supplementing whilst running an ArA cycle.
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Your guess is as good as mine.

Probably believe fish oil does more then it actually is intended to do.
 
so people suggest to take it on an empty stomach before workout, but most of us have our pre workout meal like 1-2 hrs before working out. theres no such thing as being an empty stomach if u eat a preworkout meal
 
uwotmate said:
so people suggest to take it on an empty stomach before workout, but most of us have our pre workout meal like 1-2 hrs before working out. theres no such thing as being an empty stomach if u eat a preworkout meal
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Take after a few warmup sets but 2 hours should be okay too
 
Some of the dosing recommendations are 'ideals', they are not absolutes. Dosing preworkout is probably the most important thing to follow.
 
I dose after 2 sets of whatever my workout is and I'm getting 100% results.
 
I just crunched some numbers, and by my calculations you are only getting 98.79% optimal results by dosing like that. If youre interested though, you could make up the lost results by using a transdermal fish oil patch.
 
I dosed 45minutes pre workout on a semi empty stomach. Like an hour after my last meal, and I consume all kinds of aminos at the time I dose .

seen great results btw
 
HardEarned said:
I dosed 45minutes pre workout on a semi empty stomach. Like an hour after my last meal, and I consume all kinds of aminos at the time I dose . seen great results btw
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I love ara

One of my favorite product is X factor

I run it as long as o can it's good for everything bulking cutting Recomp just a great natty prod
 
uwotmate said:
so people suggest to take it on an empty stomach before workout, but most of us have our pre workout meal like 1-2 hrs before working out. theres no such thing as being an empty stomach if u eat a preworkout meal
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Again, exercises ability to increase epinephrine which blunts insulin is why you're fine to dose ArA in around food, as long as it's preworkout.
 
Do I really have to point out that I clearly mentioned that Will L. said what he said on the PED podcast so clearly, my recent mention of omega-3 was obviously based on that and now Jigzz is claiming that I'm making claims? Really? I relayed info I heard on the podcast and now that's being ignored and turned around as if it's just purely my own claims? Really?

Again, go ask Will. Is that really so hard?

Apparently it is because likely it's easier to just argue with me. LoL.
 
aaronuconn said:
So, a couple days later, no email inquiries have been sent.
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Exactly.

Inb4 someone tells me to go e-mail Will L. In this specific case, I'm kind of the messenger that is being shot, since I'm just sharing things that Will L. said on the PED podcast, I'm not the one trying to refute it. Lulz.
 
kissdadookie said:
Exactly. Inb4 someone tells me to go e-mail Will L. In this specific case, I'm kind of the messenger that is being shot, since I'm just sharing things that Will L. said on the PED podcast, I'm not the one trying to refute it. Lulz.
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But, you could email him if you chose :)

Jiigz has no desire to, therefore repeatedly telling him to email Will isn't going to get anyone anywhere.
 
aaronuconn said:
But, you could email him if you chose :)

Jiigz has no desire to, therefore repeatedly telling him to email Will isn't going to get anyone anywhere.
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I could, but again, if you think about this logically, Jigzz is the one contesting Will L's points and even went as far as imply that Will L is trying to shill XFA or something. So instead of taking it up directly with the source of the information I shared, somehow it makes more sense to him to claim that I am making claims. LoL.

Tbh, having been told that I'm making claims in the past two days or so on this thread, I actually second guessed myself and thought "maybe I did make claims" but then rememebered how I specifically referenced back to the PED podcast.

Perhaps I'm in reality Will L.? :P
 
NewAgeMayan said:
I just crunched some numbers, and by my calculations you are only getting 98.79% optimal results by dosing like that. If youre interested though, you could make up the lost results by using a transdermal fish oil patch.
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cool
 
I know pre-workout meal interaction has been discussed already. However, my first meal is around 1600 calories and eaten about 3 hours before my workout. Would that be enough time for the ARA to do its job well?
 
SChasEE said:
I know pre-workout meal interaction has been discussed already. However, my first meal is around 1600 calories and eaten about 3 hours before my workout. Would that be enough time for the ARA to do its job well?
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I had the same set up my first run, no problems
 
kissdadookie said:
I could, but again, if you think about this logically, Jigzz is the one contesting Will L's points and even went as far as imply that Will L is trying to shill XFA or something. So instead of taking it up directly with the source of the information I shared, somehow it makes more sense to him to claim that I am making claims. LoL.

Tbh, having been told that I'm making claims in the past two days or so on this thread, I actually second guessed myself and thought "maybe I did make claims" but then rememebered how I specifically referenced back to the PED podcast.

Perhaps I'm in reality Will L.? :P
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Edit:

I am contesting Will Ls point because they go against what is commonly known, i.e. making a claim that is in contradiction to current evidence. You also stated that the evidence that there is contradiction is simply me theorizing; it is not. It is grounded in something.

This post is what tipped it:

kissdadookie said:
I've used fish oil as well as no fish oil with ArA. The non-fish oil run I even ran it with GMS and LCLT. Was there a difference? No. At least nothing tangible but I suppose theoretically if we were to measure strength gains in ounces and LBM in grams or something, maybe? But in all practicality, no difference that was appreciable.

Lots of anecdotal feedback on the subject as well, and at worse it's like a 50/50 split for those whom kept fish oil in as to it being less effective or no difference in effectiveness. If we tallied them all up, it might even be in favour of the no difference camp.

So whatever amount keeping fish oil in is inhibiting ArA, in all honesty, I have not seen much anecdotal feedback stating that it does so in any appreciable way. So this honestly IMHO is one of those looks good on paper but does it really matter in practice? No. Btw, this was the gist of Will's view as well if you listened to the interview. He is surmising his stand on the subject based on customer feedback over however many years he's had the product on the market.

Also, you honestly think that Will L. is saying what he's saying in regards to fish oil just to shill XFA? COME ON NOW. He stated nice and clearly on both Iron Radio as well as the PED podcast that ArA is what he is going to go down in the books for, not Anabolics.

Also, in regards to "basic biochemistry," going by "basic biochemistry" many bodybuilders shouldn't be able to grow due to a fundamentally broken inflammation response due to them pounding 6 grams or more of fish oil every day. This EXACT issue of fish oil consumption cancelling out ArA was brought up by Dr. Lowery on Iron Radio when they interviewed Will L. However, we know that this is NOT the case in practice because there’s A LOT of bodybuilders and powerlifters whom religiously pound massive amounts of fish oil daily and for years now (thus why Will L. has mentioned that if you are taking 2-3 grams of it, that’s a relatively modest dose and isn’t going to negatively impact ArA supplementation in a meaningful way).
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In this quote you are basically saying you agree to his view point because it seems logical based on anecdotal feedback and Will L's status (an appeal to authority). This view point also assumes that Fish Oil will PREVENT inflammation rather than reduce it. Hypertrophy can still occur with mega doses of fish oil yet this quote makes the assumption that isn't true.

kissdadookie said:
Again, if eicosanoid inhibition of ArA is going to play a significant role and things work as simply as you are implying, then the plentiful bodybuilders literally pounding down 6+ grams of fish oil DAILY and for YEARS would have some serious deregulation of their cellular inflammation response.

What matters is IN PRACTICE. Something which you are glad and quick to discount.

Remember, ArA plays a MAJOR role in inflammation response. Inflammation response plays a MAJOR role in growth and adaptation. IF ArA is so easily and seriously inhibited in the inflammation response cascade due to fish oils, that's a disruption of a MAJOR pathway for growth and proper inflammation response. That is NOT some small insignificant thing like you are making it out to be ("oh, if it's going to inhibit this pathway, we can just go down other ones").

All you're doing right now is theorizing things on paper whilst completely discounting what is occurring in the real world scenarios. It has nothing to do with anecdotal feedback being a brilliant marker or not. It wasn't that long ago that ArA was looked at as a terrible thing that we do NOT want. That was based off of your good old "basic biochemistry."

There are plentiful nuances you are not accounting for by willy nilly throwing around your "dude this is basic biochemistry" bit. Do we know what types of cellular regulation is in play for what fatty acids gets taken up and at what amounts and which will displace what and at what levels and what the possible dose response relationship would be for this to occur and if there is a limit as to how much is displaced? Do you have the information for that? Or are you going to keep going back to the "basic biochemistry" bit?
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At this point, you are making strong claims that the biochemistry that is well known is incorrect YET you have shown no evidence to suggest it is. You ask me to email someone on your behalf but if you are the one now reinforcing the claims, then the burden of proof is on you.

De__eB stated that fish oil can displace/ counteract Ara by a large percentile but not fully inhibit it. This is key. So yes, information exists on this.

You also state that this is simply "what happens on paper" which is not true; there are human studies. The fact that you do not acknowledge this does not diminish the fact they do not exist.

You can believe what you like, but I am strong in my view point that I want SNS's customers to get the absolute MOST out of ARA and not reduce its effects because they saw you posting about using 6 grams of fish oil daily which is the only reason I am still on this topic.
 
chedapalooza said:
Can't remember if this was talked about: Laxogenin + ARA?? Would the lax need to be dosed 4+ hours away?
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I asked but never got a clear answer. Supposedly it's got powerful anti inflammatory properties so I'm just gonna save it
 
Just ordered some Fearn SL Granules an another bottle of X Gels. Just want to verify my dosing scheme.

SL Granules 1 hour PWO
ArA 30 min PWO
Conqu3r/vital1ty 15 min PWO

Only thing different from what I've been doing is the SL.
 
say i am 25 days in the cycle. and then i have to stop working out/taking it for 2 weeks. how much of an impact will that make? it takes time for ara to build up in the system, if i stop for 2 weeks how much will that set me back?
 
uwotmate said:
say i am 25 days in the cycle. and then i have to stop working out/taking it for 2 weeks. how much of an impact will that make? it takes time for ara to build up in the system, if i stop for 2 weeks how much will that set me back?
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Hard to say but if you know you would have to stop for 2 weeks, I wouldn't start dosing until after that time frame.
 
if stopped taking for 2 weeks, do you have an estimate as to how many days i would have be on it again to get back to my previous ara levels before i stopped taking it?
 
uwotmate said:
if stopped taking for 2 weeks, do you have an estimate as to how many days i would have be on it again to get back to my previous ara levels before i stopped taking it?
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No. Why would you want to plan on dosing a supplement that you know you're going to stop taking for 2 straight weeks?

Just wait until you can run it fully.
 
Jigzz, you're essentially typing a lot of damn words to essentially avoid taking this up with Will L. as you logically should. That's the bottom line here and it's at this point hilariously obvious.

At first you were essentially implying he couldn't be trusts and then soon enough, you twisted things around to make it appear that I was making my own claims (which you did a good job at because it even made me believe so until I remembered that I specifically referenced where I got my info from).

End of the day, onus is on you and you know it, people following know it, you can dance around it all day all night but it still doesn't negate the fact that you are taking up the issue with me and avoiding taking it up with Will L. at more or less all cost.
 
I'm still not sure why you even keep on bringing William into this.

We recommend people stop taking fish oil with their ArA, or at the very least take them as far apart as possible, and we feel data supports that recommendation on multiple levels.

At the 6 gram fish oil dose you mentioned, ArA displacement would be significant, at lower doses obviously lower displacement. But the effect is there, and it is contrary to the goals of supplementing with ArA in the first place.

You can do whatever you want with your supplements, but don't bring misinformation to this thread unless you have data to back it up, and quoting Will L. 's by his own admission opinion and then asking other people to email him isn't data.
 
Supplementing with Fish Oil is overrated anyways.
 
De__eB said:
I'm still not sure why you even keep on bringing William into this.

We recommend people stop taking fish oil with their ArA, or at the very least take them as far apart as possible, and we feel data supports that recommendation on multiple levels.

At the 6 gram fish oil dose you mentioned, ArA displacement would be significant, at lower doses obviously lower displacement. But the effect is there, and it is contrary to the goals of supplementing with ArA in the first place.

You can do whatever you want with your supplements, but don't bring misinformation to this thread unless you have data to back it up, and quoting Will L. 's by his own admission opinion and then asking other people to email him isn't data.
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I've alread pointed out where Will states that you don't have to abstain from moderate fish oil use. TWO references. PED podcast and Iron Radio.

It seems to me like a bunch of online personalities essentially trying to fight for a popular belief rather than take away information from more credible sources (you know, like one of the experts in this topic).

Why do I keep bringing him up? Because I'm simply sharing the information from those two podcast interviews.

I'm not going to go around and be a pubmed ninja. It's pointless because time and time again many a times real world scenarios differ from perfect isolated cell culture data. You can intelligently extrapolate things from such data but you're ignoring how things may actually work in vivo.

Plus likely, Will has done a lot more work on the subject than a bunch of online personalities pub med ninja-ing this chit.
 
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