The ANDROGIN Experience

Vitruvian Man

Vitruvian Man

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Product:
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Starting Stats: 5’11, 188-190lbs
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Training/Diet: Have initial Skype meeting with my coach on Monday, prepping for a Physique show in June. So all that will come then.

Blah blah blah: So just a general rambling. I recently had COVID last month. Had to quarantine something bizarre, like 17 days lol. Ended up losing 10lbs and quite a bit of strength. Illness itself wasn’t bad IME but the time off stuck on my couch did me no favors. So I’m in the midst of bouncing back while also about to enter prep.

No other supps outside of vitamins, creatine, pre-workout. This will be a 4 week run of ANDROGIN solo and if I enjoy it I will run some more but once April hits I’ll be using ThermoAmp, 7-keto, and such along with it.
 
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Vitruvian Man said:
How are you dosing? In the big Androgin thread people are throwing their dosing protocols in and it’s throwing me off.
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Been doing it 1 cap first thing as soon as I wake and 1 cap right before going to sleep. I am just trying to feel it out.
 
Is anyone running this going to do bloodwork ? I've done blood work on supps I've ran. I'm more curious on actual bloodwork. Op if you can get one we'll appreciate it for comparison.
 
In on this!
 
nnnnnn said:
Is anyone running this going to do bloodwork ? I've done blood work on supps I've ran. I'm more curious on actual bloodwork. Op if you can get one we'll appreciate it for comparison.
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For GH?

The panels needed for this would be pretty damn expensive?
 
DAY 1 & 2 — Initial Impressions
  • Day 1 — I dosed first pill upon waking. Waited 30 min to eat then off to gym (all I could manage to wait, 3rd shift makes me extremely hungry 2 times a day; immediately upon waking and right before bed). 2nd dose was an hour fasted and 1.5 hours before next meal. 2nd dose I felt came with a bit of a ‘peaceful feeling’, could’ve been placebo. Also felt a bit more of a carb craving at my end of night meal.

  • Day 2 — Dosing was similar but not as ideal as far as fasted doses go. Hunger was not as increased today and I only ended up eating 1.9k calories as sleep got fucked and passed out early. Training volume has taken a major decrease now as I enter prep (update on that coming). I did notice CRAZY vascularity today, not sure if attributable to Androgin already, but also nothing else new in the mix. This was post-workout vascularity BTW that remained 2-3 hours until I went to sleep.
TRAINING/DIET UPDATE:

So per my coach I will be training PUSH/PULL/LEGS/PUSH/PULL/OFF/OFF. Competing in Physique so only one leg day. As I said he has pulled the volume back off my typical training, BIG TIME lol. Which is probably fine as I had some super high volume bro fluff in there.

2600cal/day; 250P/240-265C/60-70F macros.

START OF DAY 3:

- 187.6lbs upon waking. Weight has dropped a little but interested to see what it does. Sometimes things like this can make you shovel in food and not notice a drop on the scale but leaning effects in the mirror so should be interesting as I enter a caloric deficit
- Look a tad bit fuller, especially in the arms. Vascularity is not as pronounced as lastnight and seems to be my ‘normal’.
- Feel a bit hungry from the undereating yesterday but not nearly as hungry or carb craved as I thought I’d be.
- 2-3 hours of sleep yesterday. About 5 tonight. I’m off all day today so I’ll prob nap 2-3 hours at some point today. Working third shift full-time about to switch back to swing shift (should be mostly 2nds), so my sleep may get a bit choppy. Did not feel any extra tiredness, I have dreamed both nights thus far.


Last thing to note the Androgin pills seem to have a mint-y taste to them. This is neither good nor bad and has no actual context, just my observation 😂
 
DAY 4

Weight was 185.0lbs in AM so a decent drop. Am feeling a bit more fullness. Still have had dreams every night / nap. Not much else to report.

No huge hungers or anything.
 
DAY 8 UPDATE:
186.8lbs AM Weight

BP: 245x10,10,8, 225x10
Inc BP: 175x10 x4
Pec Dec: 100x12 x4
DB Skullcrushers: 30x10, 35x8,8,7
TriPD: 60x11, 50x11, 50x8, 40x12
Abs + bike

So some updates. Was off the last 2 days and prior to that I didn’t have anything new to report, so no update.

Yesterday around house and today at work I felt I looked a bit more fullness, esp in chest, shoulders traps.

I had an insane pump at the gym today. Literally felt like my triceps were going to rip out of my skin. And if you look at my lift it’s not super volume orientated to ‘pump-seeking’ type of deal currently.

Also still have had a dream every night. Sleep itself has not been the greatest since starting 3-6 hours most days. I do not feel tire throughout the day but am able to fall asleep fairly quickly after lying down (this is good and not typical for me). Also have felt well rested despite the lackluster amount of sleep.

Lastly I’ve started a new job and am training 1st shift this week and probably next week as well. Then will be working 2nd and some 3rds mostly. So in all fairness my huge pumps today could be attributed or at least partly/mainly attributed to the fact; 1.) I typically train nearly fasted most days (300-500 cals in me), today I had a small breakfast, small lunch, and preworkout meal in me (1400 cal and 210g carb), 2.) I also typically lift with about 20-30oz water in me (plus 20-40oz or more during lift). Today I had 70-80oz + in me and killed another ~70oz during lift, 3.) carbs were very high yesterday so that plus other factors could all have contributed

Or a combo of all these factors + Androgin 👍, just a lot of variables and want to ensure I’m open about all.
 
ALSO—

My Push Day 1’s are now done at the gym and my flat and incline pressing are done on smith. My lifts this week on both of those were actually weaker than last week and I kind of struggled to get in the grove/good position. And thus, my triceps may have been overcompensating and leading to another factor in the nearly skin splitting pumps. Plus I had been lifting with 2 other people all last week and my rest times were much longer vs today where, admittedly, I was rushing my rest times.

So again a lot of factors. We will see how the rest of the week plays out.
 
I’m in! Not sure how I missed it this long. Great details and feedback this far!
 
DAY 11
(AM Weight: 185.4lbs)
Inc BP: 185x10 x4
BP: 225x7 x4
DB Fly: 30x10 x4
CGBP: 205x9, 205x8 x3
DB Ext: 30x8 x4

Felt pretty weak on incline and flat bench. Lifted at gym today not home and the incline is much steeper than at home (not adjustable). The gym incline is beyond 45°, prob 50-60° and my home set up is prob closer to 30°. So I believe that 1.) made incline feel harder and 2.) made flat feel harder as shoulders and such were more taxed.

Definitely noticing fullness. I don’t feel a huge recomp effect at this point, but stomach feel flat vs a little pudge or food belly type **** — this could be diet related. A bit of vascularity all day long more pronounced. And as I said, sleep is godly and energy is awesome (in the sense that I’ve been sleeping 5-6 hours vs my reg 7-9 and feel more well rested throughout the day).

Gym pumps seem to be better but I believe that insane pump from Monday was moreso due to other variable vs effects of Androgin just because it hasn’t repeated thus far. At only 10 days in tho I do feel very impressed tbh. Traps also seem to be bigger/popping more which is strange as direct trap work isn’t really programmed into what I’m doing currently. Idk if GH increases affects androgen receptors in the traps like AAS and such does but seems like an interesting note, or perhaps outside of the GH increase this also is a bit anabolic 😈

I’m not complaining either way hehe :-) Pull day tomo then off the weekend so unless I notice something new I probably will not update until Monday or so. Cheers y’all
 
Vitruvian Man said:
Idk if GH increases affects androgen receptors in the traps like AAS and such does but seems like an interesting note, or perhaps outside of the GH increase this also is a bit anabolic 😈
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Remember the main effect is not the increase in GH, it’s that it’s a natural SARM.
Really interested in seeing how it affects your strength. That’s the main thing I’m looking for with muscle growth being secondary, but definitely welcome!
Thanks for logging! When I get a chance to take the plunge I’ll have to do the same! Cheers!
 
Vitruvian Man said:
DAY 11
(AM Weight: 185.4lbs)
Inc BP: 185x10 x4
BP: 225x7 x4
DB Fly: 30x10 x4
CGBP: 205x9, 205x8 x3
DB Ext: 30x8 x4

Felt pretty weak on incline and flat bench. Lifted at gym today not home and the incline is much steeper than at home (not adjustable). The gym incline is beyond 45°, prob 50-60° and my home set up is prob closer to 30°. So I believe that 1.) made incline feel harder and 2.) made flat feel harder as shoulders and such were more taxed.

Definitely noticing fullness. I don’t feel a huge recomp effect at this point, but stomach feel flat vs a little pudge or food belly type **** — this could be diet related. A bit of vascularity all day long more pronounced. And as I said, sleep is godly and energy is awesome (in the sense that I’ve been sleeping 5-6 hours vs my reg 7-9 and feel more well rested throughout the day).

Gym pumps seem to be better but I believe that insane pump from Monday was moreso due to other variable vs effects of Androgin just because it hasn’t repeated thus far. At only 10 days in tho I do feel very impressed tbh. Traps also seem to be bigger/popping more which is strange as direct trap work isn’t really programmed into what I’m doing currently. Idk if GH increases affects androgen receptors in the traps like AAS and such does but seems like an interesting note, or perhaps outside of the GH increase this also is a bit anabolic 😈

I’m not complaining either way hehe :) Pull day tomo then off the weekend so unless I notice something new I probably will not update until Monday or so. Cheers y’all
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So GH increase is sort of a secondary MOA on this product.
Its primary MOA is direct androgen receptor binding like an anabolic steroid or SARM.
This is basically a natural SARM.

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Sorry the pics were not properly labeled.
The top 4 are ginsenosides. The next 2 are Dianabol and Testosterone. Notice the similar structure. This allows them to bind to the same receptors.
 
Turkesterone also has a similar structure but doesn't seem to bind to the androgen receptor due to its size. It looks like ginsenosides are just as "bulky" and unless those parts are cleaved off via some metabolic process, its hard to imagine that any strong binding if any occurs.

That doesn't mean it can't though just want to be clear.
 
And I wonder...because of similar backbone structure and "bulkiness"....I wonder if binding to the estrogin beta receptor like waht Turk does is a possible anabolic mechanism? Whatever the case I salute Black Lion Research and companies like it (Antaeus Labs) for novel thinking. Bravo. Bravo indeed.
 
Keeping in mind that there are multiple ginsenosides I can state with 100% confidence that some of them bind to androgen receptors. Absolutely certain. I am also 100% certain that they cause an anabolic effect as a result.
Here are some interesting reads.

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Ginsenoside Rb1 inhibits vascular calcification as a selective androgen receptor modulator

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20(S)-protopanaxadiol regio-selectively targets androgen receptor:

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Effectiveness of Panax ginseng on Acute Myocardial Ischemia Reperfusion Injury Was Abolished by Flutamide via Endogenous Testosterone-Mediated Akt Pathway
"Our results for the first time indicate that blocking androgen receptor abolishes the ability of Panax ginseng to protect the heart from myocardial I/R injury. "

There are dozens of studies validating ginsenosides androgen receptor binding affinity and anabolic response.
More than just about anything natural Ive ever seen.
 
Also notice that on top of being anabolic, ginsenosides are cardio protective and inhibit testosterone suppression.
They also increase growth hormone to a significant degree and reduce insulin sensitivity.
Of course each has its own properties. Some are more anabolic, some are better for fat burning etc.
 
Appreciate the study reference Brundel.

Whenever novel products based on extrapolation of studies come out, inevitable scrutiny from the experienced and analytical crowd comes out. Same thing with the fanboys and supporters no matter what a company does. Both are needed.

As a previous steroid user and lifelong bodybuilder, one gains quite a bit of knowledge, experience, and analytical tools along the way. The chemistry game that has become an integral part of the biology game we play opens up new horizons in the muscle building journey. That chemistry applies to novel concentrated extracts as well and will be trying this out with the eye of scrutiny. That's not a bad thing at all. Thanks again for bringing some more excitement!
 
Of course. I absolutely welcome intelligent discussion about this stuff. This new product is so interesting as well.
Ginsenosides are just about as close to a natural steroid as I think we have ever seen and echinacoside seems to be just about as strong as GHRP6.

Take a look-
"There is increasing evidence that ginseng and its bioactive ingredients are involved in the regulation of nuclear receptors, molecules that act in response to the specific binding of hormones, which link to a diverse array of signaling pathways, such as the ERK and PI3K/Akt pathways. "
"The accumulated results definitely show that the nuclear receptors are cellular targets of ginsenosides, "
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A question that pops up in my head: you are well aware that steroid users or former users constantly play the "dosage" game. We also know (or eventually find out IF we are doing things smart and safe....so many uninformed don't (and the legions of these folks grow exponentially these days)) that each individual reacts differently to different dosages.

How was it determined that 2 capsules a day, 1 AM, 1 PM, was the "optimal dosage"? From your development, would you say this dosage is a "starting dosage" for safety concerns....is there an upper dosage range you and your team believe should NOT be experimented with?
 
Experimenter said:
A question that pops up in my head: you are well aware that steroid users or former users constantly play the "dosage" game. We also know (or eventually find out IF we are doing things smart and safe....so many uninformed don't (and the legions of these folks grow exponentially these days)) that each individual reacts differently to different dosages.

How was it determined that 2 capsules a day, 1 AM, 1 PM, was the "optimal dosage"? From your development, would you say this dosage is a "starting dosage" for safety concerns....is there an upper dosage range you and your team believe should NOT be experimented with?
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We ran tests on ginsenosides for nearly 2 years.
I wont go into all of the different aspects but we tested 9 different extracts and synthetic ginsenosides.
Even mixed ginsenosides at 80% failed to cause any response or effect we could document.
Basically we had to make pure ginsenosides, encase them in cyclodextrins and then add the complex bioavailability package to prevent metabolism and assist with absorption.
The dose in the product is much higher than you might think.
Average ginsenosides in ginseng root is 1-3%
ours is 98%
80% standardized extracts are not super expensive but you get mixed ginsenosides and not enough of the ones we want specifically.

"Ginseng is typically administered orally, after which the ingredients are exposed to gastric juices, digestive enzymes, and bacterial enzymes. Intact ginsenosides are absorbed only from the intestines (the absorption rate is as low as 0.1% to 3.7%) "Invalid Link Removed

So according to the above lets save average you absorb 1.5% ginsenosides normally.
The addition of the cyclodextrin complex increases solubility 75x and oral bioavailability up to 20x.
So lets say now 30%. Then we add the bioavailabiliy and metabolic package and we expect to see at least 40 to 50% bioavailabilty.

So......100mg of ours you absorb, conservatively, 50mg.
100mg of normal ginsenosides you absorb 1.5mg.

The dose doesnt seem high but it is drastically higher than anything ever made available.

I dont know what the upper limit is for this stuff but I know it was effective at half the dose in the product and before we added the echinacoside and acteoside etc. Which by the way have 0% bioavailability without our methods of enhancement.

The good news....
Androgin is a natural SARM and GH secretagogue.
But....unlike all its synthetic cousins it is heart protective
Liver protective
Brain protective
Testosterone suppression blocking.
0 side effect having
FIRE in a bottle.

I think if you want to try higher doses its up to you.
 
Worried about side effects in young adults. This is definitely intriguing due to no test suppression. I am 21 years old and looking to add some size and strength before I cut. Safe to take at that age?
 
Thanks Brundel. I have taken Ginseng before (I think everyone has) and frankly I liked its stress relieving effects on me but it had NO anabolic properties at all. Nada. Mentally it really put me in a good mood and I think Ginseng is very under rated for this. But like so many supplements, you never know about the potency and standardization which is why lot to lot or batch to batch results will vary. If anything, even IF this product does not do what it is purported to do anabolically (I am hopeful it will), the fact that it is standardized with the functional extracts makes it miles ahead of any other Ginseng product out there.

My run starts tonight.
 
JawnJohnson50 said:
Worried about side effects in young adults. This is definitely intriguing due to no test suppression. I am 21 years old and looking to add some size and strength before I cut. Safe to take at that age?
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Presently I have no reason to believe there is cause for concern.
Its not suppressive like AAS and Most SARMS and it seems to boost or maintain test levels.
 
Experimenter said:
Thanks Brundel. I have taken Ginseng before (I think everyone has) and frankly I liked its stress relieving effects on me but it had NO anabolic properties at all. Nada. Mentally it really put me in a good mood and I think Ginseng is very under rated for this. But like so many supplements, you never know about the potency and standardization which is why lot to lot or batch to batch results will vary. If anything, even IF this product does not do what it is purported to do anabolically (I am hopeful it will), the fact that it is standardized with the functional extracts makes it miles ahead of any other Ginseng product out there.

My run starts tonight.
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I cant wait to see what you think.
Ive been using it on my post covid recovery stack and its been most impressive.
I took basically the whole of last year off then got covid this year so its like starting from scratch (almost)
I do have alot of atrophied muscle cells as I was once a lean 235.
190 now and strength and muscle have been growing at a much faster rate than I had imagined it would.
 
Not to always be sounding like that guy who has nothing positive to say or is always the party pooper, but strength gain and muscle gain after laying off but starting serious again (meaning not just the training but the eating) is due primarily to that them there "muscle memory". It's real. So it might not be Androgin if you are implying the growth is from that (which I do not think you are).

As indicated, I have used steroids before; am pretty experienced with them. And I have recently experimented with SARMs (solo) also so I know what they can do for me. I have to be up front here: I do NOT think this will compare as favorably as one would hope. BUT, I WILL keep an open mind....I just have to constantly fight my skepticism.
 
AND, apologies to the OP. My responses, comments, and questions should have been in another thread or the main one where Brundel introduced Androgin. I didn't mean to hijack....forgot where I was.
 
Experimenter said:
Turkesterone
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I’ve never done a real cycle, tried ostarine over half a decade ago, but I enjoy the knowledge MPMD posts on YouTube and when he posted about Turk I had to drop androgin in the comments. 😅

From my understanding Turk could replace gear that also binds to the estrogin beta receptor and now Androgin can do the same for androgen receptor binding. I still have to try Androgin solo myself, appreciate logs, but I love thinking about combining things even if I haven’t tried them. lol

The prospect of being able to pick natural sources that do the same thing as gear makes the future of muscle building so exciting!
 
Not everything that binds to AR elicits stronger response than endogenous hormones... in the case of ostarine. Adding it to cycle to containing other androgens have resulted in diminished gains. In certain cases certain androgens may have stronger affinity to bind but also elicit a undesirable effect or diminished.
 
Jakethaniel said:
I’ve never done a real cycle, tried ostarine over half a decade ago, but I enjoy the knowledge MPMD posts on YouTube and when he posted about Turk I had to drop androgin in the comments.

From my understanding Turk could replace gear that also binds to the estrogin beta receptor and now Androgin can do the same for androgen receptor binding. I still have to try Androgin solo myself, appreciate logs, but I love thinking about combining things even if I haven’t tried them. lol

The prospect of being able to pick natural sources that do the same thing as gear makes the future of muscle building so exciting!
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Combining Turk and Androgin sounds great!
 
barische said:
Not everything that binds to AR elicits stronger response than endogenous hormones... in the case of ostarine. Adding it to cycle to containing other androgens have resulted in diminished gains. In certain cases certain androgens may have stronger affinity to bind but also elicit a undesirable effect or diminished.
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This is a good point. Lots of things bind to the androgen receptor. Many of them are antiandrogenic and block the effects of aas and endogenous hormones. This is different.
There are numerous studies showing an anabolic response from these compounds.
Not just androgen binding but skeletal muscle growth via multiple pathways stimulated by ar binding.
 
barische said:
Not everything that binds to AR elicits stronger response than endogenous hormones... in the case of ostarine. Adding it to cycle to containing other androgens have resulted in diminished gains. In certain cases certain androgens may have stronger affinity to bind but also elicit a undesirable effect or diminished.
Click to expand...

True this. If you keep up with the anecdotal experiences, Ostarine itself sometimes leads some to feel WEAKER. Why? Theory is that it has potentially a higher affinity for the AR and therefore knocks off the more potent AR agonist (testosterone in this case).
I think of it this way: Clomid occupies the ER, blocks estrodiol and therefore one gets a weaker estrogen result. I'm pretty sure the exact same thing happens at the AR. Bravo for bringing this up.
 
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