Test/Dien E w/ a DMZ kicker

If the DMZ wants carbs to grow I would finish before starting a cut!
I want some noodz brother!
 
I was going to wait until I leaned out a little before any noodz. And as for "keep going" versus "stop, drop and start a cut", you are right. I just keep going back and forth in my head about how best to optimize the improved digestion and protein synthesis from the DMZ to help lose some of this extra fat that I picked up. :)
 
Here are some noodz, taken this morning. I am not unhappy with the bulk, but also not exactly happy. At least I have 1 more week to go, maybe it will really take off these next several days.

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Here is the best I could do to get a back shot. You can also see my lower back fat in it.

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You can see my "turtle belly" in this picture *sigh*

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I really plan to knuckle down next week and pull back on the calories to bring my belly back into shape before we get too far into summer here.
 
Sparkss said:
Here are some noodz, taken this morning. I am not unhappy with the bulk, but also not exactly happy. At least I have 1 more week to go, maybe it will really take off these next several days.

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Here is the best I could do to get a back shot. You can also see my lower back fat in it.

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You can see my "turtle belly" in this picture *sigh*

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I really plan to knuckle down next week and pull back on the calories to bring my belly back into shape before we get too far into summer here.
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Getting thick brother! Putting on some size since the last noodz I saw!
 
Join me and we will be known as the "Fellowship of the turtle belly".

Right now I'm working on it too, making slight improvements while intermittent fasting.
 
Studhorse said:
Getting thick brother! Putting on some size since the last noodz I saw!
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Thanks. The pictures don't really do my progress justice, but do they ever? My wife even commented how I was thicker across the shoulders and back and also in my legs. My jeans still fit (barely) in the waist, but I almost can't get my legs in them. I make them look like skinny jeans right now (they are relaxed fit Kirkland brand). But that is all the result of a couple of cycles over the last 6+ months. Although I am not sure when I last posted any pictures, I mean outside of my neck surgery ones (which you can still see the scar in my first pict, but it is actually fading pretty fast)

But in all seriousness I appreciate the compliment! Especially since I did a piss-poor job of getting a decent picture of my upper chest/front. :)
 
hairygrandpa said:
Join me and we will be known as the "Fellowship of the turtle belly".

Right now I'm working on it too, making slight improvements while intermittent fasting.
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I have been following along with your progress. You are a lot fiercer looking than I am, so your belly isn't that obvious like mine is. I think that you are in great shape! It is so frustrating to see the outline of my abs (even the side edges are visible in the picture), but still have my belly stick out so much. *sigh*.
 
Hyde said:
Pics aren’t working for me
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I think there was a site wide issue earlier today. I saw the Admins get called into one of the promo threads about picts not showing up. I think that it is fixed now (at least I can see picts in all threads now).
 
Sparkss said:
I have been following along with your progress. You are a lot fiercer looking than I am, so your belly isn't that obvious like mine is. I think that you are in great shape! It is so frustrating to see the outline of my abs (even the side edges are visible in the picture), but still have my belly stick out so much. *sigh*.
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A lot of it looks like bloat from elevated e2, trust me. Unless you had blood labs, try 0.5 adex -or 12.5 exem and see how you look tomorrow.
 
Just a little update. My BP this morning was 148/77, so I added a couple of Celery Seed Extract pills to my daily vitamin stack. We will see tomorrow if it helps.

I went into this cycle with a creaking (painful) elbow, but that subsided a couple of weeks ago. I should have paid more attention to see if it was around the time I suspect that my e2 spiked, but I cannot be sure. The day after the first mast injection and the "creak" is starting to come back. It could be coincidental, or not, either way I lived (and worked out) with it before. It just looks like I need to dig out my anti-inflammatory again.

I have a blood draw scheduled for next week, the day after my last DMZ dose. I want to see what my liver/kidney markers all look like to know what I might need to use (for ancillaries) the next time I run DMZ. I will also be checking my e2 levels.

And my weight boomerang'ed/yoyo'ed back to 202 again today. It was 209.6 last night, 202.2 this morning (my digital scale only measures in .2 lb increments). No matter what I do or eat I seem to keep coming back to this weight. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out once I start cutting next week, that plus stopping the DMZ.
 
Sparkss said:
I think there was a site wide issue earlier today. I saw the Admins get called into one of the promo threads about picts not showing up. I think that it is fixed now (at least I can see picts in all threads now).
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I still cant see pics either

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Invalid Link Removed
 
hairygrandpa said:
A lot of it looks like bloat from elevated e2, trust me. Unless you had blood labs, try 0.5 adex -or 12.5 exem and see how you look tomorrow.
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It is funny that you say that. I did just schedule labs for mid-next week, the day after my last DMZ dose. The tests include e2.

I am also still on the 60mg ralox + bioperine in the morning. But as that does nothing specifically for e2 levels it will be interesting to see what my labs come back with next week. I am reluctant to take any exem right now as my joints are starting to ache again, which might be due to low e2 (hard to guess w/o that lab work)
 
Great log Sparkss, just getting caught up. I’m running a similar blast in 3 weeks. Dien/DMZ and some other goodies added also...
 
Looking good my friend, keep up the good work!
 
Matthersby said:
Great log Sparkss, just getting caught up. I’m running a similar blast in 3 weeks. Dien/DMZ and some other goodies added also...
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If you never ran a nor19 before then make sure your support supps are in line. I did my due diligence, but couldn't anticipate the shortness of breathe that I experienced, But as with all things we (I) live and learn!
 
Rocket3015 said:
Looking good my friend, keep up the good work!
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High praise from you Rocket! I appreciate the compliment, although I am less than happy with the pictures I posted (or more specifically how I look in them). But I wanted an accurate representation and those were as close as I could get, but I do feel that I look better than the pictures show, but such is life :).
 
Another little update.

BP this morning, about 90 mins after my DMZ dose and roughly 30 minutes after finishing my morning coffee, and it was 140/69. So the celery seed extract addition seems to have really made a difference. *coffee for me is a double shot of espresso with a small amount of milk.

I wanted to report no lethargy throughout the run, however around 3 ~ 4 PM each day I sort of crash. It seems to happen no matter what I had for lunch, or just before hand (IE: whether it was higher in carbs or higher in protein). that lasts about an hour then I am back good to go for the rest of the day. This started about a week ago.

I am up an lb today, went to bed at 210.6, woke up at 203.2. And TBH I actually feel like I look a little leaner than I did yesterday, but that may just have been the lighting this morning.

The lump behind my right nipple is still there. It is not really sore (until after I poke around it for a bit, then it is :)) and it has not really gone down in size that I can tell. But the studies w/ ralox ran it for up to 60 months to get the reported gyno reduction. Plus most anecdotal feedback is that it takes at least 1 to 2 months for most to see any changes (although some see it in just a couple of weeks, but apparently I am not one of them).

I am looking forward to the next couple of days to see what I can squeeze out of this DMZ run. And also for next week to get the blood test results. I am really curious to see how impactful the DMZ was and also where my e2 is at. I do have exem on hand if I need to bring my e2 down at all, but by that time I will have been on mast for just over a week, so that little anti-e affect might be enough to bring it in line if it was out of line to begin with. Because of that I am tempted to push up the blood draw to this week, since a couple of days won't make much difference with the DMZ impacts on my liver/kidneys. But getting an appointment for the blood draw is rough. And I much prefer an appointment over walking in and going stand-by.

Once my BP calms down, which I figure will be a couple of days after the end of the DMZ, I plan to add in some stim fat burners. Fun times :)
 
Will you be using that VL Necrofire? Stuff looked nice for $20/bottle.

Plain old 30mg Synephrine caps from SNS have been remarkably effective for me in controlling hunger on the occasional days I fast. Ephedrine with a baby aspirin on top will flat turn off my hunger if I need it. But caffeine doesn’t really do anything for appetite suppression for me.
 
Hyde said:
Will you be using that VL Necrofire? Stuff looked nice for $20/bottle.

Plain old 30mg Synephrine caps from SNS have been remarkably effective for me in controlling hunger on the occasional days I fast. Ephedrine with a baby aspirin on top will flat turn off my hunger if I need it. But caffeine doesn’t really do anything for appetite suppression for me.
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Yes, I have necrofire on hand and am going to stack it with necrosis. For appetite, I have that phentermine prescription from my doctor. He was touting it's nootropic affects when he prescribed it for me, calling it "adderall-lite". I have seen an improvement in my alertness too. He only gave me a 2 month prescription for it, but I go back to see him in a couple of weeks and maybe he will extend it. I had to produce a recent EKG for him to prescribe it, which I had one on hand from my surgeries the end of last year. Not sure if he does refill, what tests he might require. But I love how much control it gives me over my appetite, that plus the alertness is a huge bonus.
 
I have a hard time controlling evening hunger, with out taking something that has bad effects on my sleep.
 
Rocket3015 said:
I have a hard time controlling evening hunger, with out taking something that has bad effects on my sleep.
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if I take anything even "stim-adjacent" after 2 PM I am toast that night. Oddly enough I can drink a cup of coffee as last as 4 or 5 and still be ready for bed by 9 ~ 10 PM.
 
Sparkss said:
if I take anything even "stim-adjacent" after 2 PM I am toast that night. Oddly enough I can drink a cup of coffee as last as 4 or 5 and still be ready for bed by 9 ~ 10 PM.
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Same Here!
 
Sparkss said:
if I take anything even "stim-adjacent" after 2 PM I am toast that night. Oddly enough I can drink a cup of coffee as last as 4 or 5 and still be ready for bed by 9 ~ 10 PM.
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Me too. We share a lot of things. Like 19-nor + stim sensitivity.
 
Day 38

Took the last dose of DMZ this morning. Won't be taking a 2nd dose this evening as it was literally the last dose (empty bottle now).

204.2 lbs
BF: around 17.1% (Omron handheld, so take that into account)
Waist: 35"
Midsection: 36.5" ~ 36.75"

Tomorrow morning I get labs done and also start my cut.

Still taking the ralox and still not 100% sure that the small lump behind my right nipple wasn't there before I started. Also a little over a week into Mast P + Mast E (going to drop the Prop after next week). I am hoping between this and my TRT dose it will be enough to prevent catabolism during my cut.

Overall I went up about 11 lbs and dropped 2% BF (I think the Omron's may have close to that for potential variance, but my upper body is leaner looking than when I started). But my waistline is up about 1". I am hoping that is mostly bloat and will go away over the next couple of days. I will continue the updates through the next week or so, at time permits.

I will add that I logged my starting weight at 193, which it was on day one. However I took a couple of days of phentermine when I first got the prescription and within 3 or 4 days it dropped me to 189. I am guessing that was mainly water weight or something else besides fat that the phentermine helped to eliminate. Then I started going back up in weight from there. Since I know that in those first 3 ~ 5 days the DMZ most likely wasn't doing anything (yet), one could almost consider the 189 as my starting weight, which would put the weight gain at 15 lbs. But I am used the day 1 weight as my starting weight. In the end all that matters to me is how I look in the mirror, the rest are just numbers on a screen. I included this detail for others who may be considering a similar run in the future, to provide them with as much information as I can. Cheers! :)
 
Interestingly enough, I’m starting this exact cycle tomorrow. I’m re-reading your log today for pointers..
I’ll be running it like this:
Test E: 250/week
Dien: 400/week
DMZ 15/30/30/30

Glad to see it treated you well and I’d be thrilled with similar results!
 
Sparkss said:
Day 38

Took the last dose of DMZ this morning. Won't be taking a 2nd dose this evening as it was literally the last dose (empty bottle now).

204.2 lbs
BF: around 17.1% (Omron handheld, so take that into account)
Waist: 35"
Midsection: 36.5" ~ 36.75"

Tomorrow morning I get labs done and also start my cut.

Still taking the ralox and still not 100% sure that the small lump behind my right nipple wasn't there before I started. Also a little over a week into Mast P + Mast E (going to drop the Prop after next week). I am hoping between this and my TRT dose it will be enough to prevent catabolism during my cut.

Overall I went up about 11 lbs and dropped 2% BF (I think the Omron's may have close to that for potential variance, but my upper body is leaner looking than when I started). But my waistline is up about 1". I am hoping that is mostly bloat and will go away over the next couple of days. I will continue the updates through the next week or so, at time permits.

I will add that I logged my starting weight at 193, which it was on day one. However I took a couple of days of phentermine when I first got the prescription and within 3 or 4 days it dropped me to 189. I am guessing that was mainly water weight or something else besides fat that the phentermine helped to eliminate. Then I started going back up in weight from there. Since I know that in those first 3 ~ 5 days the DMZ most likely wasn't doing anything (yet), one could almost consider the 189 as my starting weight, which would put the weight gain at 15 lbs. But I am used the day 1 weight as my starting weight. In the end all that matters to me is how I look in the mirror, the rest are just numbers on a screen. I included this detail for others who may be considering a similar run in the future, to provide them with as much information as I can. Cheers! :)
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Nice results!
 
Matthersby said:
Interestingly enough, I’m starting this exact cycle tomorrow. I’m re-reading your log today for pointers..
I’ll be running it like this:
Test E: 250/week
Dien: 400/week
DMZ 15/30/30/30

Glad to see it treated you well and I’d be thrilled with similar results!
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You will likely see more and leaner results if you are able to stick with the dien. As I had to ditch it early on I did not see as much lean progress as I had hoped (just regular bulking progress). Tag me into your thread when you start it up. I would love to follow along!
 
Sparkss said:
You will likely see more and leaner results if you are able to stick with the dien. As I had to ditch it early on I did not see as much lean progress as I had hoped (just regular bulking progress). Tag me into your thread when you start it up. I would love to follow along!
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Will do, bro. I’m psyched about the Dien especially. I sincerely hate trashing my liver, it gets tougher on me and my appetite since I’ve been doing this 10 years. but I’m thinking I can get away with 30mg for 5 weeks with DMZ. May have to just run Tudca on top of my NAC/MT. I can’t even go over 10mg on SD anymore, so I’m thinking I’ll get more from an average dose but for an extra week on dymethazine.
 
Good Luck on the cut!
 
Matthersby said:
Will do, bro. I’m psyched about the Dien especially. I sincerely hate trashing my liver, it gets tougher on me and my appetite since I’ve been doing this 10 years. but I’m thinking I can get away with 30mg for 5 weeks with DMZ. May have to just run Tudca on top of my NAC/MT. I can’t even go over 10mg on SD anymore, so I’m thinking I’ll get more from an average dose but for an extra week on dymethazine.
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I had my blood draw done this morning so hopefully by tomorrow, or early next week, I should be able to give you an idea of the impact this DMZ had on my health markers.

Rocket3015 said:
Good Luck on the cut!
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Thanks. Ironically I am psyched to start the cut, in contrast to my normal excitement over starting a bulk :). I am really curious to see how much lean mass I end up with once I get my waistline back down again.

Even with the waist gain it was less than when I tried bulking with LGD last year. That one was around a 12 week run and I ended up having to move up a pants size for the last couple of weeks. I am still in my current pants size, albeit more comfortable in the ones with the elastic waistbands :).

I am going to calculate my strength increase from the start to now, as I know I have moved that needle a fair bit on several exercises. Both for strength and endurance. I hope to be able to get that done before the weekend. I also think that when I run this again I will not bother with trying to control my appetite. The last couple of days I just let my appetite do what it wanted and while I did see the scale move, I did not really see a corresponding increase in my waistline. Telling me that I need to feed this DMZ a lot more than I have been.

I had not posted this before, because it was no longer on the inventory roster, but I used (1 bottle) of VL Cadaver Candy (DMZ) for this run. I just saw on the FB page that it is coming back again.
 
I kicked mine off today. Dien@100 eod/30 dmz/Test 125 2x week.

Come on over!

Dienolone/DMZ/Test Log
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I got my blood work back earlier today from the draw yesterday. All liver and kidney markers were well within range. Makes me feel like I wasted money on the extra Tudca :).

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So I know that if I wanted to (on the next run) that I could 1. run less support supps or 2. Run the DMZ longer. As I have heard that DMZ hits a wall of diminishing returns around the 4 or 5 week mark I think I would go with saving some $$ on the TUDCA and going with 500 mg instead of 750mg/1g

However my estro was high, coming in at 97.

hairygrandpa said:
A lot of it looks like bloat from elevated e2, trust me. Unless you had blood labs, try 0.5 adex -or 12.5 exem and see how you look tomorrow.
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So HGP (@hairygrandpa) was spot on! I took an exem this evening and will likely take on EOD for a little while. My testosterone also came in high, at 1243. The thing to keep in mind is that I had the blood drawn on the day of my 2x/wk split dose TRT shot, before I did the shot that day. So the 1243 is the bottom end of my test levels. I knew that it was elevated since I was running a higher amount of test before, but I stopped that a couple of weeks ago with the last high dose shot being 4 weeks ago yesterday. Although I did read that cyp can take up to 44 days to "clear" the system, so another 2 weeks before it is completely out, but even with that being said my levels feel higher than I would have expected.

For the estro and exem, how long does it take for exem to have an effect on my e2 levels? I ask because I wanted to assess the quality of this exem and wanted to know how long to wait to get a blood test done (again, mainly to test the effectiveness of this exem). I am leaning towards doing my shot on Sunday, having my blood drawn on Monday, taking an exem on Monday and Wednesday then having my blood draw again on Thursday, to see how much it changed. Thoughts? Tests too close together?
 
Ya easily. Longer half-life as well. And as hormones with even 6 hour half lives take 4-7 days to really notice actual improvements, I have always felt with AI’s, it never responds as quickly as we’d like it to. Once I start an AI or bump up dose, it’s like a solid week before I really start to see its effects taking place, although labs may show differently, the body is sluggish in response to endocrine manipulation.
 
Exem and adex are working very quick for me. 6-10 hours after taking I pee frequently and the next day I can see changes in the mirror (less bloat).

No idea when it will show changes in blood, my guess is fairly quick too. Checking a week after would be a good idea -or maybe 10 days?
 
It may also be because I’ve ran Trest something like 7 months out of the last 18 months, and that’s the only time I’ve needed strong AI+SERM on anything. I will throw everything at that methyl estrogen and it takes weeks to dial it in. Agreed on bloat though, I’ll notice water drop within 2 days of starting or upping AI usually.
 
Matthersby said:
It may also be because I’ve ran Trest something like 7 months out of the last 18 months, and that’s the only time I’ve needed strong AI+SERM on anything. I will throw everything at that methyl estrogen and it takes weeks to dial it in. Agreed on bloat though, I’ll notice water drop within 2 days of starting or upping AI usually.
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I always thought that our "traditional" AIs are not effective against methyl-estrogen? That they mainly just control regular estrogen and therefore leave more "room" for the methyl-e2, hence some people see results when using them against the m-e2. Or am I way out in left field on that one?
 
Sparkss said:
I always thought that our "traditional" AIs are not effective against methyl-estrogen? That they mainly just control regular estrogen and therefore leave more "room" for the methyl-e2, hence some people see results when using them against the m-e2. Or am I way out in left field on that one?
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That is what I'm thinking too. Trests conversion seems unaffected by AI's. We would need an expert on this like smurfy .
 
My next run will be trest-ace, winny, caber, no test, 1mg adex/d. Winny suppresses progestin (supposedly), lets see how that works.
Ralox did not inhibit gyno from trest (prolactin?) , at least not at 15mg-30mg/d as I had tried. Will leave a serm out and do a ralox protocol afterwards if gyno strikes again.
 
Sparkss said:
I always thought that our "traditional" AIs are not effective against methyl-estrogen? That they mainly just control regular estrogen and therefore leave more "room" for the methyl-e2, hence some people see results when using them against the m-e2. Or am I way out in left field on that one?
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Agreed fully. I can smash Letro all day on just 12-20mg/day Trest to no avail. The only thing that keeps it in check is Nolva or Ralox (I’m sure Torem and Clomid might suffice but breast tissue specific seems better to me) with Prami or Caber on hand as well. And I have needed them at times.. AI does little to nothing, except keep my low dose Test under control. I’m fairly certain if I were running Trest stand-alone, I wouldn’t even use an AI at all with a SERM and Prami on hand.

Also, having run Trest so much, EVERY time I introduce a DHT, I can cut my ancillary support in half for its duration.
 
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Loads of good info in here from some really intelligent guys here on AM. I stayed up reading last night to learn just how much I DON’T know...
 
Matthersby said:
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Loads of good info in here from some really intelligent guys here on AM. I stayed up reading last night to learn just how much I DON’T know...
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Read it -but what is the conclusion? Trest + AI = No ? Trest + Serm = Yes?
 
Matthersby said:
That’s kinda my takeaway plus AI has worked for very few of us as well.
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My guess is, that gyno from trest is progestin/prolactin related, the question arises, is a serm useful for prolactin/progesteron induced gyno?
 
Why were you taking such a baby dose of Ralox? You should be looking at 60, even 120mg for serious gyno control.
 
Hyde said:
Why were you taking such a baby dose of Ralox? You should be looking at 60, even 120mg for serious gyno control.
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Yes, next experiment will have higher dosage. at 15-30mg it probably wasn't enough to tap the receptors.
I was confident letro would suffice -but we all know how that went.
 
The scale has been moving pretty fast since I started cutting, which tells me that it was mainly water and glycogen stores. My current stats:

196.4
waist: 35"
midsection: 36.25"
BF (via omron): 18.6%

The last 2 days the scale has only moved incrementally, IE: yesterday was 96.6, today 96.4. I also have noted significant lethargy since I started cutting, which I attribute to the reduced caloric intake. I am going to give it a little more time then planning to add in some T3 (25mg). I just want to get to the point where I am working on the fat and not just water/etc before I start the T3. I am not using any stims right now (outside of my morning coffee and PWO drink). I have VL Necrofire that I may add to it next week, all depending on how things go leading up to the addition of the T3. I also my take some before I do my weekend yard work tomorrow, it will all depend on how I feel, and even so would not be a full dose (it is quite hot here and I don't want to over heat or over tax myself).

I had started ostarine at the clinical study dose of 3mg/day a little less than a week before the end of the DMZ (I have labs at that dose and know well how my body responds to it). I did add T2 (VL Necrosis) and Evomuse DCP in starting after the DMZ stopped. So I am currently taking those + my TRT dose of 180mg/wk of test and 375 mg/wk of mast.

Still on 60 mg/day of ralox (+bioperine) and I am also still taking exem at 10mg EOD. I have another blood draw scheduled for next Tuesday, so that will tell me whether this RC exem is doing any good.
 
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