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Terror in our time. Video.

MarcusG said:
Video's of civilians being beheaded is montrous but is one-sided. Iraqi's are being killed and kidnapped in greater numbers than foreign contractors. No one seems to know who are behind some of the kidnappings of Iraqi's - are government agents involved?

Ordinary iraqis feel every bit of their grinding poverty when their electricity bills in Baghdad jumped 1,000% post-war - changed by privatization and deregulation in favour of certain foreign corporations. They are disillusioned with the transparency and integrity of the reconstruction process when the CPA mishandled and wasted 20billion of Iraqi oil revenue (Bremmer just signs it) without proper accounting on cherry picked contractors, instead of the utilising more of the 87bil reconstruction package (which would be subjected to greater scrutiny?).
How can you make excuses for people who would kill you just because of who you are?! This kind of touchy feely tree hugging hippie crap is exactly the reason we can't go in there and get the job done like we should. Comparing the beheadings to the prison scandal is assanine. I have yet to hear one freakin muslim come out and say how wrong that **** is, yet how much have we heard about the prison crap. If you want to worry about someone, try starting with your own countrymen, like the sailors on the uss cole or the the marines sleeping in the barracks who got blown to **** by a terrorist in a van full of explosives or the people and families of the people in the two buildings that NO LONGER EXIST. The list goes on. And I bet if we sat back and did nothing to address iraq or the terrorist threat, and more innocent americans got killed, you'd be the first guy on his soapbox condeming the government for not doing anything. Go sell your **** to michael moore, he'd most certainly be more receptive.
 
It boggles my mind that anyone could try to minimize the impact of merciless beheadings via a knife...videotaped for your family, no less. How can there be any one-sided reporting of that? Further, the people in Abu G. prision were ENEMY COMBATANTS, not innocent civillians. You have no idea what they did, and for all we know, they might deserve a much worse fate than being forced to wear panties.

How brutal does it have to get before you see the truth that there are some really nasty fucks in the world who are sub-human? You know what happens if we catch those murders, too, right? They get celebrity treatment, and even on the fat chance that they were executed, it surely would be humane, and it surely wouldn't involve a dull blade and a video camera. Why are you blind to this?
 
This is what bugs me about our society...I never thought I'd live in a day when people would be beheaded on television and their own countryman would act like its nothing to get pissed off about, implicitly suggesting they deserved it.
 
Yeah, i'm also sick of the U.S. getting held to higher standards than anyone else in the world. Any other country can pull off whatever the hell they please with no repercussions and the bleeding hearts are right there justifying it. There's been too much off this Dr. Phil get in touch with your feelings, be more sensitive crap passed on to americas young men that they end up turning them into castrated wimps and spend more time trying to "understand" things instead of just being a man and DOING the right thing.
 
Deoudes59 said:
Media could care less
the media is effin out of control. it's no longer unbiased truthful information you get on the news. it's what gets the ratings and biggest shockvalue. Look at the ban on ephedra- the media played a HUUUGE part in that one.
 
CDB said:
No, he didn't. He had a 13 year old daugher who may one day see this tape, a wife, a family. Personally I don't know how anyone can watch that and not want to nuke that whole area of the world.

I agree that those who did this are deserving of death. However, nuking "that whole area of the world" is ludicrous. It would make us just as bad as them. Not to mention that by that standard, we'd need to nuke our own country as well. We have terrorists here. The whole premise behind the actions of the KKK is to create terror, to name one American terrorist group within our borders.
 
Brodus said:
Can someone come up with a nice, warm, fuzzy way of extracting information from people who kill their own daughters and rammed planes into buildings of thousands of innocent people?

What if you were interrogating a gang member of a gang that killed your son? Would you take time out to make sure he was comfortable and receiving 100X better care than your own flesh and blood did?


Read 'the interrogators'. They are very devious. In a very good way ;)
 
Brodus said:
It boggles my mind that anyone could try to minimize the impact of merciless beheadings via a knife...videotaped for your family, no less. How can there be any one-sided reporting of that? Further, the people in Abu G. prision were ENEMY COMBATANTS, not innocent civillians. You have no idea what they did, and for all we know, they might deserve a much worse fate than being forced to wear panties.

How brutal does it have to get before you see the truth that there are some really nasty fucks in the world who are sub-human? You know what happens if we catch those murders, too, right? They get celebrity treatment, and even on the fat chance that they were executed, it surely would be humane, and it surely wouldn't involve a dull blade and a video camera. Why are you blind to this?

Almost all of Abu G. inmates were innocent and imprison by mistake or simply guilty of petty crimes. US MI estimated 70-90% were arrested by mistake. The MO is to arrest and detain young males within a certain distance of an attack or IED. If you torture the lot, 90% of the information you get would be rubbish. So what was happening is 90% of people (who weren't processed unofficially and hidden from the red cross) would now have a motivation to get back at US troops.

Didn't I say before the beheading was a monstrosity?
 
Brodus said:
This is what bugs me about our society...I never thought I'd live in a day when people would be beheaded on television and their own countryman would act like its nothing to get pissed off about, implicitly suggesting they deserved it.


I wasn't trying to imply they deserved it. I was trying to bring some attention to the Iraqi's who are suffering just as much if not more. And many are not overtly grateful because of some of the reasons I gave. A soldier in Iraq has his personal donation project which I admire greatly:
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"I was trying to bring some attention to the Iraqi's who are suffering just as much if not more."

They still have their heads, man. I don't see it as an equal equation.

How do you know what the "MO" is concerning Abu G. inmate arrests? And where did you pull your 90% figure? That is so made up! I have a project for you--go interview everyone incacerated in American jails. They're all innocent too! You have no basis in fact to make those statements. If we arrest ten people who are protecting a safehouse for a known terrorist, they know something. They aren't copying down the Koran in their freetime--they're selling heroin, approving of honor killings, and perpetuating a truly wicked philosophy among those they influence. Since you have such a well-developed sensor for the culpability of Iraqis, maybe you can volunteer and save the government a bunch of money, and let them know. Send an email--send a letter--tell them about how innocent everyone who is incarcerated is.

I didn't advocate torture--there are other methods. I asked you to come up with some. I'm asking you to be realistic, and not live in a fantasy world where we allow those who are associates of polygamist heroin dealers to get special treatment b/c we feel sorry for them. What do you suggest? That we sit down and have civil discussions? They'll slit your throat for who you are! They hate you! They don't care that you're posting **** about how nice they really are!

How would "processing them officially" help? How does Red Cross involvement limit the number of people getting their heads chooped off? How do UN sanctions effect the actions of people like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi?

What it comes down to is you become an appologist for the opposition. You just don't want to face how wicked our enemy is; you want to divert attention to the people of Iraq; this does nothing to accelerate our departure. If you read any psychology, or better, Bobo's recent article on the power of suggestion, you know how important it is to maintain a positive attitude regarding a project you embark on. If you had a child, and he/she did bad on one test, would you constantly bring it up until they viewed themselves as a failure? What is the purpose of the Abu G. scandal being on the front page of the LA Times on 50 occassions?

I haven't heard one positive suggestion from people with this mindset; no solutions, just complaining. If you were on a team, you would be kicked off.

And guess what, there were a lot of innocent Germans who died during WWII-->in fact, so many more in so many more horrible ways than ever will die in Iraq, that to suggest we are being anything but protective of citizens in Iraq betrays a total lack of understanding of the historical record. If you are a pacifist, and you're goal is just to have us focus on the attrocities of war so that we come to share your beliefs, say it now. Otherwise, please, answer some of my quesitons.

1. Explain to me how cheap it really is to restore power and water to an infrastructure that has been crippled by its own people, and further destroyed by terrorists.
2. Please post the document you have that instructs soldiers to randomly arrest innocent people and torture them.
3. Please post figures for the number of civilians killed in Iraq. Do the same for WWI, WWII, and VietNam.
4. Please give me your vision of the correct way to handle pedophilic heroin dealers with a hard on for killing.
5. Please explain what the US should do when they see Iraqis committing "petty crimes." By petty, do you mean the kind that they cut your hand off for in the old Iraq? Or just the kind that they stone you for in public?
6. Did you read "The Interrogators?" Do you agree with the authors assertion that :

"They flirted, he acknowledges, with stress positions and sleep deprivation, but this was nothing, he claims, beyond what army recruits and the interrogators themselves routinely endured; their main weapons seem to have been veiled threats to return Arab prisoners to their homelands, where they would face real torture."
 
All in all, a similar mentallity to the war on terror is repeated on this thread and others. Kill them, by any means neccessary.
I feel most Americans feel that way -
We just don't hear about it.
Very few Americans believe respect from abroad is priority over safety at home. If they believe that, well maybe they need to experience a 9/12.
We hear the endless bush-hate and abu-graib propaganda.
But the average person doesn't buy it.

There is first: the propaganda, then: the propaganda that people actually buy into the progpaganda.

We aren't idiots.

We can tell the difference between hazing and beheading. No matter what the New York Times tells us.

That is why I maintain this election will be a landslide: B58-K40-N2.
 
MarcusG said:
I wasn't trying to imply they deserved it. I was trying to bring some attention to the Iraqi's who are suffering just as much if not more. And many are not overtly grateful because of some of the reasons I gave. A soldier in Iraq has his personal donation project which I admire greatly:
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This is a war. The people of iraq unfortunately are going to suffer as a result. But at least it's a byproduct of us helping them restore their country to peace rather than them suffering at the hands of a sadist like saddam for his own sick pleasure. In the end they were going to suffer either way, at least they'll hopefully get something out of it now. And for you to imply that the guys beheading the contractors consider their doings acts of war or somehow just according to their religion or beliefs, consider this- In the koran it states in numerous passages that beheading is acceptable if the person is PERSONALLY attacking you or PERSONALLY waging war against you. These were civilian contractors helping in the rebuilding process, not commiting any act of aggression or attacks. That logic is extremely faulty.
 
jarhead said:
How can you make excuses for people who would kill you just because of who you are?! This kind of touchy feely tree hugging hippie crap is exactly the reason we can't go in there and get the job done like we should. Comparing the beheadings to the prison scandal is assanine. I have yet to hear one freakin muslim come out and say how wrong that **** is, yet how much have we heard about the prison crap. If you want to worry about someone, try starting with your own countrymen, like the sailors on the uss cole or the the marines sleeping in the barracks who got blown to **** by a terrorist in a van full of explosives or the people and families of the people in the two buildings that NO LONGER EXIST. The list goes on. And I bet if we sat back and did nothing to address iraq or the terrorist threat, and more innocent americans got killed, you'd be the first guy on his soapbox condeming the government for not doing anything. Go sell your **** to michael moore, he'd most certainly be more receptive.
I'm going to memorize this so I can say it to every bleeding heart liberal bitch I come across. :goodpost:
 
I normally dont get into any of these types of conversations, BUT..... I cannot help myself this time.
I have served in the US Military for over 10yrs now and I always find it funny when people that know nothing about the military have all of these facts about things that they truely know nothing about.
For all of you people that think that the Iraqis have it worst than us or that they are treated worse than us, here are some facts for you that I know first hand because I have been there!!! These people do NOT like us!!! The only reason that any of them put up with us is for our money. The reason these people where ruled the way they were by Saddam is because that is the only thing these people understand. They are primative people and they only listen to people because they are afraid of them(ruled by an iron fist). I have been to the Middle East and until you go there and see FIRST HAND how these people act toward us you should not make statements about how mistreated they are....
The only other thing I would like to point out is Iraq is a terrible place for any American to be, our military is under attack everyday and what the TV shows you is a joke and cannot do justice for what it is really like. IT SUCKS BAD!!!!!!
I wish everyone would stop and think about what it would be like to leave all of your love ones and friends to go to a place where at any moment you could be killed and fight for people that show NO graditude for what we are trying to do. It is a Slap in mine and every other military members face when people make comments about things they no nothing about! You can read anything you want or watch any TV show but NONE of them are the truth all of them are created to support someones agenda!!!!!!! If you want to know the truth join the military and go over there and find out!!! I think you will be SHOCKED by the truth!
Just my Opinion
 
If any part of the religion that I join would do such things I would quit being into that religion-and I did so for maybe far lesser reason.
 
You know Brodus I've said similar things before, not on here, but verbally. About how the Middle East for the most part is one of the last bastions of tribal culture. They are culturally about 500 years behind us and technologically prolly 15-20 years on average and over 100 years in others.

Eventually something is going to happen. Something BIG. It will most likely be a long time though. Because what really needs to be done is someone goes in there and sets up shop... and obliterates ANY form of resistance to the change that needs to take place. I'm talking every freedom, media, protests, armed insurgents, etc...
Its going to have to be done one day. Maybe not in Iraq, Iran, etc... but its gonna have to happen... and North Korea is looming as well; and that guy is pretty bad news himself
 
"the Middle East for the most part is one of the last bastions of tribal culture."

Exactly. It's a culture clash that is inevitable. Further, I think if their culture weren't engaged in some of the bizarre customs, like honor killings and such, they might be able to exist longer. Witness the American Amish--essentially old school tribal, they shun modernity, but don't do anything extreme enough to warrant intervention.

And believe it or not, Tatt2d's sentiment is shared by MOST of my friends who left the middle east with their families and now live here.
 
Good points about the Iraqi's culture. I think one HUGE stumbling block that will have to be overcome is the fact that we're trying to impose a democratic government on a society so deeply run by religion. Our idea of a democracy requires a separation of church and state, and in my opinion I don't see how that can work over there. There church pretty much dictates many of there laws. We have many different religions here in our country while there it's primarily muslim. The concept of a "free" society may be too much for those people to grasp. And as you guys pointed out, being that they're cultural retards and lack the tolerance required of a free society, it might be that the only way they can ever function semi peacefully is by being ruled by an iron fist as you guys suggested.
 
Maybe it would be best to leave it that way it is and only work on it from the outside(UNO),like before and if it should get too rough,with CIA,etc. .

Why not tryin´ the smart way,like before,of course there will always be loss like the WTC´s and they´ll always find a way to scare and shock us,but any kind of fanatism is not built to last,Hitler Goebbels,Mao,Idi Amin,you name it,simply because it´s too much effort against the true human nature and in the end the one who wins will be the one who acts smartest,stays as cool as possible,and without energy-wasting anger and effort.

Self-assassins aren´t there to win,or to be fight or conquered,they´re unhuman and everything they stand for is denying the most essential part of humans nature,and nature itself-living,staying alive and gettin´ along.-you can´t win,nor the side they´re fighting for,because there´s no logic and once you fight nature (and logic is a part of it) you will lose.

I think,beside some errors made in the past,because of too much power,China is making big efforts and maybe the only way to democracy or a human-respecting regime is the world trade every country depends on.

You must get that into the minds of the people,even with military force,if necessary but one should do it smart.No use in fighting against people who kill themselves and are supported by the whole.

You gotta be smart and a genocide would be the same failure as Saddam/Hitler did,and it would look pretty unmotivated,like it´s doing now,to the whole rest of the world.-That´s the tactic of the terrorist,they know damn much about psycological warfare.Spreading hysteria and capturing the fundaments of democracy to bust it itself and making even the opposite look right.

Maybe Kerrys way to get the troops out of there,the next four years isn´t the worst thing to do.You got to beat them with their own weapons which are inhumanity,lying,sleepers,terrorism and fanatism.

You should know that there are victims of every nature but I think you shouldn´t sacrifice them the way they want it to,leading to much more inhumanity and throwing petrol into the fire of fanatism,but as hard as it is in anger,do what a civilized human nation should do,showing the cruelety of them,and the patience and humanity of us.

Because there is a universal truth beside the fanatism of the Islam and a Muslim,it even is in Christianity(remember them,being as fanatic),and so it is in Buddhism and so on.(look at the dog-crap which is written in most parts of the bibel,sorry, but a religion which doesn´t teach you to break the rules it has itself,to teach you independany,is no good and even if it says so by Jesus ,many people read the bullshit,wasting their time,trying to folow useless rules.You should doubt a whole lot of things which are written down-in general!)

I don´t trust anyone who wears a scarf,though and not separting themself from fanatism and I don´t trust most of them even if they do so.

But you gotta show them what the lie is behind all this and only react the way you have to react,even with CIA/FBI/Military to really protect yourself without getting trapped by your own system ,nor that of clever terrorism-and I think it was wrong to attac the Irak,it was already under control befor and at the bottom,economically and military.

They say,leave us alone and we don´t do you any harm,why don´t we say OK,we don´t do you no harm but look what you´re doing to us.

Embargos shouldn´t be to strict for a too long period of time either.
 
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Perhaps as long as there are Muslims there will be terrorism. I won't pretend to be an expert on their religion, but from what I have read, and what we have all witnessed the root of the problem lies within their religous beliefs.
 
Maybe,everything is possible,but the Christians were the same,and even today ther´re radical groups exerting terrorism on individulas in sociaty and this is not seldom,just this isn´t a whole cultural tribe.

I belive there are Moslems and Islams whÃ*ch don´t give Jack about theri reilgion....

For example the Tuaregs in the Sahara,the men wear scarfs the women don´t and guest-right is untouchable.

The evil root may lie in theri religious beliefs in this region,but it is to us,too proof them they´re wrong and make this religious fanftism vanish.

The best way to do this ,is to substitute it with something different.-That´s hard,but only the hard way will lead to success.-We Germans learned our lesson,and in the end there was not enough ammunition to just simply blow them all away.(fell free to use it as a metaphor)
 
Fastflight said:
Maybe,everything is possible,but the Christians were the same,and even today ther´re radical groups exerting terrorism on individulas in sociaty and this is not seldom,just this isn´t a whole cultural tribe.

I belive there are Moslems and Islams whêch don´t give Jack about theri reilgion....

For example the Tuaregs in the Sahara,the men wear scarfs the women don´t and guest-right is untouchable.

The evil root may lie in theri religious beliefs in this region,but it is to us,too proof them they´re wrong and make this religious fanftism vanish.

The best way to do this ,is to substitute it with something different.-That´s hard,but only the hard way will lead to success.-We Germans learned our lesson,and in the end there was not enough ammunition to just simply blow them all away.(fell free to use it as a metaphor)

I agree with some of your points but i don't think the "evil root" as you say lies in their religion, it's certain factions interperetations of their religion that are evil. I don't believe all muslims are evil. There a many peaceful Muslims in the world.(But why they're not condeming what those bastards are doing is beyond me). You can't just throw a blanket statement like that out without out it being viewed as kind of racist/stereotyping. I mean how is that different from them saying all Americans are evil and should be killed? I'd like to think we're better than that as a country. If you could add just an ounce of tolerance, be it religious or racial or whatever, to that region, imagine how many problems that would solve. Crap now I'm starting to sound like a friggin tree huggin hippie.
 
Brodus said:
"I was trying to bring some attention to the Iraqi's who are suffering just as much if not more."

They still have their heads, man. I don't see it as an equal equation.

I wasn't trying to bring a comparison in my previous post.

How do you know what the "MO" is concerning Abu G. inmate arrests? And where did you pull your 90% figure? That is so made up! I have a project for you--go interview everyone incacerated in American jails. They're all innocent too! You have no basis in fact to make those statements. If we arrest ten people who are protecting a safehouse for a known terrorist, they know something. They aren't copying down the Koran in their freetime--they're selling heroin,....

Your project is to search for the statements that MI gave to the red cross and one former MI who gave the 70-90% figure among others.

How would "processing them officially" help? How does Red Cross involvement limit the number of people getting their heads chooped off? How do UN sanctions effect the actions of people like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi?

To give some semblance of due process. This has nothing to do with people getting their heads chopped off. If you say prisons should serve as black holes then furthur discusson is moot.

And guess what, there were a lot of innocent Germans who died during WWII-->in fact, so many more in so many more horrible ways than ever will die in Iraq, that to suggest we are being anything but protective of citizens in Iraq betrays a total lack of understanding of the historical record. If you are a pacifist, and you're goal is just to have us focus on the attrocities of war so that we come to share your beliefs, say it now. Otherwise, please, answer some of my quesitons.

In WW2, Vietnam, the people living in 'enemy' countries were portrayed in propaganda-like manner as grinning bucktooth hornrimmed wearing mongoloids, murderous huns and slopes. And 'strategic bombing' with iron finned bombs is alot more messy.

1. Explain to me how cheap it really is to restore power and water to an infrastructure that has been crippled by its own people, and further destroyed by terrorists.
I never said it was going to be cheap . I was talking about the Iraqi reconstruction racket.

2. Please post the document you have that instructs soldiers to randomly arrest innocent people and torture them.
It was a part of a documentary or a journalism snippet showing a soldier talking about the Abu ghraib situation.

3. Please post figures for the number of civilians killed in Iraq. Do the same for WWI, WWII, and VietNam.
What would that prove?

4. Please give me your vision of the correct way to handle pedophilic heroin dealers with a hard on for killing.
Easy. Put them on trial since it must be so evident that they are drug crazed killers or at least let the Red Cross take their names down to make sure they don't end up as corpses carried in the dead of night with fake bandages and IVs. Why try to hide corpses if there is nothing wrong with the circumstances of their deaths?

5. Please explain what the US should do when they see Iraqis committing "petty crimes." By petty, do you mean the kind that they cut your hand off for in the old Iraq? Or just the kind that they stone you for in public?

Don't be an idiot, the supposedly Muslim moderate country of KSA has hand chopping rules. Iraq under Saddam was a secular country with secular laws.

6. Did you read "The Interrogators?" Do you agree with the authors assertion that :

"They flirted, he acknowledges, with stress positions and sleep deprivation, but this was nothing, he claims, beyond what army recruits and the interrogators themselves routinely endured; their main weapons seem to have been veiled threats to return Arab prisoners to their homelands, where they would face real torture."

Yes I read through it. That was an Amazon snippet, not what the writer said, or what happened. One incident in the book was a prisoner being made to assume the stress position, the MI said it wasn't anything more than what he had endured in training. His CO shouted, 'you volunteered for the army'. About the arab threat - read the part of the loaded gun or pointed dagger rule.
 
Dude you are effin clueless. You're saying Saddam held up some semblance of laws that weren't barbaric? Please.But you're right about the point being moot- you're just one of those guys who will find any reason to say what your country is doing is wrong, so there is really no reason to discuss anything with you. By the way, you are an American, right? And if you're so worried about the welfare of those murderous fucks over there, why don't you volunteer to go over and give aid to those "poor" people? I wonder if you'd be saying the same **** if you were on your knees in an orange jumpsuit being beheaded by the people you're making excuses for? Or if you were a soldier standing in the middle of the street surrounded by iraqi's, wondering which one has a wad of C-4 crammed up his ass.
 
For all of you appologists for the "innocent" Iraqis who like to blow each other up, read the front-page of your newspaper today and tell me these people need the UN to watch over them with a straight face.

"Highlights"
3 Car bombs were detonated as US Soldiers were handing out candy to children for a celebration, killing 35+ children and wounding another 40+

10 more hostages were taken, with threats of death.

How can anyone say we're doing anything worse than they are doing to themselves?!!!
 
Man that **** pisses me the **** off. I also read an article about the 4 terrorists-that-met-their-72-raisans were in the last couple of minutes of the firefight hiding behind kindergarden aged children. Luckly the pakistani security forces were able to kill them without harming the children.

On the same subject, I ran across this on another site
WAS THE RUSSIAN SCHOOL ATTACK A DRY RUN FOR THINGS TO COME IN AMERICA????
San Diego school crisis plan is found on disk in Iraq
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No mercy for these people, man. Its a worst nightmare scenario, but it is upon us, and it's enough to turn a one-time pacifist like myself into a hawk.

People who think like this, act like this, etc., need to go...period. They are poison. You don't hold onto posion without becoming sick yourself.
 
Countries who have been through this know it's the only answer. Ever wonder why Germany and France restrict your "Freedom" to be a skinhead Nazi or a member of a hategroup?
 
France is a nation of the biggest bunch of cowards in the history of the world. They joined the Nazis in WWII, if they won't fight for their own freedom - why in the world would they fight for the people of the Sudan, Iraq, or anywhere else.
France the birthplace of liberalism.
France the birthplace of cowards.
 
Ooops...sorry I touched a nerve! I was just bringing it up to illustrate that some countries that have seen the evil that men can do don't think twice about controlling the groups who are allowed to build up in their country.
 
But guys, I though diversity was a beautiful thing, dont these people understand that we are just trying to show them our culture/ way of life. (sarcasm for you slow people) Another point for segregation/ not becoming involved in other coutries affairs. I am by no means a pacifist, but I do not think we should become involved in foreign countries affairs without being attacked first, and if attacked, we should destroy their country, and not help them rebuild. 1 solider/civilian's life is not worth saving 1000 of theirs. Kill them all I say. Make them leave our country, I would personally voulenteer to round them up. Mods feel free to edit of delete this post if you see fit, I am so damn mad after seeing that video.
 
Grant, I kinda understand your point but that's what led us to pearl harbour(being isolationists). Also how many live would have been saved if we would have jumped in to stop hitler sooner? what if we had info on the 9/11 attacks before they happened(I'm not saying we did!!), wouldn't a president be required to launch a preemptive attack? It's kinda like with the war, he had british M-I6, russian intelligence, our own intel, and a number of other countries telling us saddam had wmd. If he DOESN'T do something and we get attacked by them, that's an impeachable offense. Ya know, the sad truth is we will never know what info we did or didn't have prior to the war. Oh and I agree with the comments about France. At the first sign of trouble, they fold easier than a card table. **** them and their fries!
 
jarhead said:
Grant, I kinda understand your point but that's what led us to pearl harbour(being isolationists). Also how many live would have been saved if we would have jumped in to stop hitler sooner? what if we had info on the 9/11 attacks before they happened(I'm not saying we did!!), wouldn't a president be required to launch a preemptive attack? It's kinda like with the war, he had british M-I6, russian intelligence, our own intel, and a number of other countries telling us saddam had wmd. If he DOESN'T do something and we get attacked by them, that's an impeachable offense. Ya know, the sad truth is we will never know what info we did or didn't have prior to the war. Oh and I agree with the comments about France. At the first sign of trouble, they fold easier than a card table. **** them and their fries!
Of course if we had info about an attack we would attack, did we have on in this case? We have allegations that we havent proven yet. I wouldnt have as much of a problem with what we did if we left after we were done destroying the place, but of course in this day and age, we are paying for the reconstruction of Iraq, both with Amererican dollars and lives, so that some muslim pig can behead an American.

At least the Germans didnt behead us when WW2 was over, they were somewhat greatful that we were helping pay for the reconstruction of their country, although I am sure they were a bit pissed they lost the war. Just shows you the difference between Europeans and muslim trash.


And that we didnt have ample warning about pearl harbour is debatable.
 
I just watched that video while eating a medium cooked hamburger and all I got to say is ****! I almost called for dinosours.

Every time I see something like this it makes me so proud to be joining the service. I have to report to OCS July 30 2005 and I can wait to finish my nuclear power and prototype school so I can get in the water and go fry some of those mother fucking sick bastards.
 
Did we have info about 9/11 beforehand? Don't know. But I do know we were attacked before that by al queda (embassies,USS Cole bombed) and **** was done about it. To bad GWB wasn't president then.
 
Grant said:
Of course if we had info about an attack we would attack, did we have on in this case? We have allegations that we havent proven yet. I wouldnt have as much of a problem with what we did if we left after we were done destroying the place, but of course in this day and age, we are paying for the reconstruction of Iraq, both with Amererican dollars and lives, so that some muslim pig can behead an American.

At least the Germans didnt behead us when WW2 was over, they were somewhat greatful that we were helping pay for the reconstruction of their country, although I am sure they were a bit pissed they lost the war. Just shows you the difference between Europeans and muslim trash.


And that we didnt have ample warning about pearl harbour is debatable.
The part about the intel reports from our country and others about Iraq are FACTS. whether or not they were accurate is debatable. I think you completely missed my point, but as for what you said- The Germans didn't behead us because they were thoroughly beaten. However they did damn near wipe out an entire race of people that might have been saved if we had gotten involved sooner. And who said this thing is over?! Iraq is an ENTIRELY different scenario than WW2. There's also a strategical/ moral reason we didn't go into Iraq and "destroy" the place and leave. Saying that we're there rebuilding and paying etc. so that muslim pigs can behead Americans as you did, sounds like a Michael Mooreism. And "muslim trash" ? I'm as pissed about this as the next guy, but I'm not going to let it change my values and think that because the terrorists are muslim, that means all muslims are trash. I've served my country along side peaceful muslims who are far from trash.

As far as the pearl harbour warning thing..um my point was not about having warning. It was about taking an isolationist stance and thinking we were untouchable that bit us in the ass.
 
Grant said:
At least the Germans didnt behead us when WW2 was over, they were somewhat greatful that we were helping pay for the reconstruction of their country, although I am sure they were a bit pissed they lost the war. Just shows you the difference between Europeans and muslim trash.

I don't think that that is entirely true.
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From the period of 1944 to 1948 a secret, pro-Nazi, fascist group of SS officers and German soldiers called "Werewolves" terrorized Allied sympathizers and allied soldiers. Using tactics which can only be described as guerrilla they posed a moderate security threat to the rebuilding of Germany. They often were dressed as civilians, and almost never fought as conventional soldiers. They frequently committed acts of violence not only against the Allied occupiers, but also against other Germans who they viewed as being anti-Nazi.

Allied-supported government leaders were assassinated including the American-supported and democratically elected mayor of Aachen, the first major German city to be liberated. The werewolves came to the house of the Mayor dressed as downed pilots and killed him when he came to the door.

In a 3-month period of 1945 there were 300 incidents of violence and sabotage in which the Werewolves were suspected. They blew up railroad tracks, schools, and in some cases attempted poisoning the food and liquor supply.

In a way to further their cause they also used media to their advantage. Using bootleg radio transmitters, pro-Nazi graffiti, and by dropping leaflets, they promoted the citizens of post-war Germany to rise up against the evil occupying forces of America, England, France, and the USSR.

Though the body count of Allied soldiers was light to non-existent, they did make the rebuilding of Germany a tougher job than it had to be. These Nazi sympathizers wanted a return to a statist, fascist Nazi led government.

Things eventually got better, but during the reign of the Werewolf citizens were terrorized and frightened to cooperate with the occupiers for fear of reprisal. This small, but dedicated, bunch of Anti-American insurgents did not want to see the end of the fascist Nazi ruling party that they were a part of. The ultimately knew that if Germany became a free state, all hopes of seeing their world of hate and genocide would come to an end. With freedom would come an end to the world they wanted to live in.
 
THE DEBATES
they are hardly debates - very little engagement
no questions from the candidates.

Bush never impresses me. But Bush is doing a GREAT JOB.
my 2cents.
 
Deoudes59 said:
THE DEBATES
they are hardly debates - very little engagement
no questions from the candidates.

Bush never impresses me. But Bush is doing a GREAT JOB.
my 2cents.

He's no public speaker. But the debates aren't going to change my vote.
 
Fastflight said:
The evil root may lie in theri religious beliefs in this region,but it is to us,too proof them they´re wrong and make this religious fanftism vanish.

The best way to do this ,is to substitute it with something different.-That´s hard,but only the hard way will lead to success.-We Germans learned our lesson,and in the end there was not enough ammunition to just simply blow them all away.(fell free to use it as a metaphor)

Bump to that. Islam is 500 years behind Christianity. This is their crusades, and it's going to be a hundred years before it's over.

Like it or not, if we lived in a secular world there'd be a lot less problems. Put a cherry '05 BMW in Omar's garage and two strippers making out in his pool, he's not gonna worry so much about blowing himself up on a bus this afternoon. ****, he'll probably be calling up his good pal Sclomo to bring an eight ball by his crib.

Don't get me wrong, the Jewish and Christian fundamentalists are out of control, too.

Say it with me: Greed is good.
 
jarhead said:
The part about the intel reports from our country and others about Iraq are FACTS. whether or not they were accurate is debatable. I think you completely missed my point, but as for what you said- The Germans didn't behead us because they were thoroughly beaten. However they did damn near wipe out an entire race of people that might have been saved if we had gotten involved sooner. And who said this thing is over?! Iraq is an ENTIRELY different scenario than WW2. There's also a strategical/ moral reason we didn't go into Iraq and "destroy" the place and leave. Saying that we're there rebuilding and paying etc. so that muslim pigs can behead Americans as you did, sounds like a Michael Mooreism. And "muslim trash" ? I'm as pissed about this as the next guy, but I'm not going to let it change my values and think that because the terrorists are muslim, that means all muslims are trash. I've served my country along side peaceful muslims who are far from trash.

As far as the pearl harbour warning thing..um my point was not about having warning. It was about taking an isolationist stance and thinking we were untouchable that bit us in the ass.
I was saying we had hints of a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, but chose to ignore them, its not like it came out of no where, with that warning we should have prepared.


Micheal Moore, hahaha **** that fat commie pig, of course we are not rebuilding Iraq so that muslims can kill americans, but that is what is happening... Is making a buck in Iraq worth the lives of these men, is helping these people worth the lives of our soliders. Hell we are not even going to take the damn place over, WERE GIVING IT BACK!!! FOR WHAT! I would be fine with it if we kept the country after the war was won, the USA could use some new land, especially land so rich in oil. While not all muslims share their beliefs, the perpetrators are still muslim trash. Of couse Iraq is a totally different situation then WW2, I never said that they were alike. Moral reasons for rebuilding Iraq, tell that to the guys daughter. They are a disgusting people, who do not deserve to be treated with respect or dignity. This did not change my values about muslims, if you read the Koran, a good muslim is one who acts as these people do, that is where I have the basis for my beliefs, and they are only reinforced by events like 9/11 and these beheadings.

I am joining the service also, but only to go fight these worthless POS, and while I do not think we should be there, I cant just sit by and see my countymen murdered.
 
Jeff said:
I don't think that that is entirely true.
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Interesting, I have never heard of that, but it does not suprise me that the Germans did that, and it is hardly compareable to what is happeneing in Iraq, as very few Allied soliders died. Dont get me wrong, I am not agreeing with genocide, I think that is where Germany went wrong.
 
Did the debate change anyone's mind?

Ultimate question, screw who won.
 
Grant said:
I was saying we had hints of a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, but chose to ignore them, its not like it came out of no where, with that warning we should have prepared.


Micheal Moore, hahaha **** that fat commie pig, of course we are not rebuilding Iraq so that muslims can kill americans, but that is what is happening... Is making a buck in Iraq worth the lives of these men, is helping these people worth the lives of our soliders. Hell we are not even going to take the damn place over, WERE GIVING IT BACK!!! FOR WHAT! I would be fine with it if we kept the country after the war was won, the USA could use some new land, especially land so rich in oil. While not all muslims share their beliefs, the perpetrators are still muslim trash. Of couse Iraq is a totally different situation then WW2, I never said that they were alike. Moral reasons for rebuilding Iraq, tell that to the guys daughter. They are a disgusting people, who do not deserve to be treated with respect or dignity. This did not change my values about muslims, if you read the Koran, a good muslim is one who acts as these people do, that is where I have the basis for my beliefs, and they are only reinforced by events like 9/11 and these beheadings.

I am joining the service also, but only to go fight these worthless POS, and while I do not think we should be there, I cant just sit by and see my countymen murdered.
Whoa- first off I'm not defending these fucks. Everyoneone is disgusted by the attacks and beheadings, but it's not right to hate people just because of their race or religion. By your logic, timothy mcveigh bombed that building in Ok. and he's white and maybe a baptist or something, so does that mean all white baptists are trash? THAT'S how the terrorists think, and we should be better than that. And you're confusing me with the ww2 stuff because YOU brought it up comparing it to iraq. On of the biggest reasons the mideast doesn't want us there is because they're afraid we have long term designs on the place. Haven't you heard the pres. emphasize the fact that we there to LIBERATE the people of Iraq, not take over their country? I think you're missing the point entirely of why we're over there. You suggested we should take over the country because it's rich in oil?! Haven't we been trying to convince ourselves and other countries that we didn't go there for oil since this thing started?! The Koran DOES NOT state that these people are acting like good muslims. I doubt if you've ever picked one up or you would know this. It's the way these terrorists INTERPERET the writings of the koran that's got them all F'd up. Kinda like the way you just interpereted it. And if you are joining the military, I suggest you deal with your borderline racist attitude before you go to bootcamp or you are going to have a tough time. In the corps, one of the first things they taught us was that there is no black, no white, just green. Prejudice of any kind is not tolerated. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to get a muslim drill instructor to help you with these issues.
 
jarhead said:
Whoa- first off I'm not defending these fucks. Everyoneone is disgusted by the attacks and beheadings, but it's not right to hate people just because of their race or religion. By your logic, timothy mcveigh bombed that building in Ok. and he's white and maybe a baptist or something, so does that mean all white baptists are trash? THAT'S how the terrorists think, and we should be better than that. And you're confusing me with the ww2 stuff because YOU brought it up comparing it to iraq. On of the biggest reasons the mideast doesn't want us there is because they're afraid we have long term designs on the place. Haven't you heard the pres. emphasize the fact that we there to LIBERATE the people of Iraq, not take over their country? I think you're missing the point entirely of why we're over there. You suggested we should take over the country because it's rich in oil?! Haven't we been trying to convince ourselves and other countries that we didn't go there for oil since this thing started?! The Koran DOES NOT state that these people are acting like good muslims. I doubt if you've ever picked one up or you would know this. It's the way these terrorists INTERPERET the writings of the koran that's got them all F'd up. Kinda like the way you just interpereted it. And if you are joining the military, I suggest you deal with your borderline racist attitude before you go to bootcamp or you are going to have a tough time. In the corps, one of the first things they taught us was that there is no black, no white, just green. Prejudice of any kind is not tolerated. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to get a muslim drill instructor to help you with these issues.



No, Tim Mcvey and the Muslim terrorists are completly different, the Koran has many passages that state that it is ok and even good to kill infidels ( I will find them later I have a date), while there is nothing in the SBreligion that tells you to kill non believers. Also there have been far more hanus and horrible attacks commited by muslim terrorists then there have been commited by white southern baptists. WE should NOT be there to liberate anyone, that should be on their motivation, not ours. Im am not missing the point at all. I do not think it is worth it for a US solider to go fight and die for these people who are so ungrateful. I believe that they only time a nation should use its military is to defend itself and expand its national borders. If they want freedom let then fight for it. I am not going to deal with my "borderline racist attidude", I do not hate ALL muslims. There actully are passages in the Koran that jusitfy (for muslims) what they are doing), like I said, I will find them.
 
Grant said:
No, Tim Mcvey and the Muslim terrorists are completly different, the Koran has many passages that state that it is ok and even good to kill infidels ( I will find them later I have a date), while there is nothing in the SBreligion that tells you to kill non believers. Also there have been far more hanus and horrible attacks commited by muslim terrorists then there have been commited by white southern baptists. WE should NOT be there to liberate anyone, that should be on their motivation, not ours. Im am not missing the point at all. I do not think it is worth it for a US solider to go fight and die for these people who are so ungrateful. I believe that they only time a nation should use its military is to defend itself and expand its national borders. If they want freedom let then fight for it. I am not going to deal with my "borderline racist attidude", I do not hate ALL muslims. There actully are passages in the Koran that jusitfy (for muslims) what they are doing), like I said, I will find them.
Not ALL the people are ingrateful, you are contradicting yourself, there are passages in the Bible that say to stone an unruly child or unfaithful wife so why stop with the koran, and if you think we have have no busines over there, than you should think long and hard if you really plan on joining the military.
 
Didnt contradict myself at all. There are passages in the OLD testament, which is not what christains follow. There are not old and new testaments in Islam. Of course not ALL are ingrateful, but why the hell should we fight for someone elses freedom?
 
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