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telmisartan New on cycle sup?

Mathb33

Mathb33

Well-known member
So a couple friends of mine mentionned me they started using telmisartan (ARB) which is a blood pressure meds during all their cycles. Supposedly not as harsh as some other meds too. Any of you guys know anything about it? @Whisky @Nac. @Hyde
 
Im in a rush and can’t think of the guys I want to tag in lol hopefully you guys manifest or I’ll come back later and tag you guys
 
Hmmm well yeah it's obviously an Rx for BP, but it seems lots of guys are using for off-label purposes, it's got great data on vascular health in general, diuretic control, cardiac remodelling, etc etc. It works on the RAS which is the main system controlling vascular constriction/relaxation, and water, and so on.

Dudes like Victor Black, Vigorous Steve, etc champion the stuff. It does look really good for purposes beyond just blood pressure control. I'd be tempted to take it at a low dose (10-20mg) to avoid it changing my BP, which is already good, solely for its other benefits.
 
Yeah I’m supposed to have a call tonight with a friend he says he takes it for everything else but BP. He’s got it from Viktor
 
@Nac my first concern was exactly that.. but what if your BP is fine on cycle (which is my case) wouldn’t this lower it to dangerous low levels? He told me supposedly no because it uses a different pathway than other BP meds???
 
Mathb33 said:
@Nac my first concern was exactly that.. but what if your BP is fine on cycle (which is my case) wouldn’t this lower it to dangerous low levels? He told me supposedly no because it uses a different pathway than other BP meds???
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It could do, sure. I can't remember the specific numbers mentioned in studies, but it *is* used for BP. And yes, it has a different MoA to something like a beta blocker.

I've been looking into foods that are "natural" ARBs and ACE inhibitors (Telmisartan is an ARB). There's not as much good data on these foods as say pomegranate, but there's some....
 
Mathb33 said:
@Nac my first concern was exactly that.. but what if your BP is fine on cycle (which is my case) wouldn’t this lower it to dangerous low levels? He told me supposedly no because it uses a different pathway than other BP meds???
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I believe I read that telmisartan will only lower blood pressure to certain levels and no lower, as in unlikely to dangerously low levels. Might want to search that a little.
 
GreenMachineX said:
I believe I read that telmisartan will only lower blood pressure to certain levels and no lower, as in unlikely to dangerously low levels. Might want to search that a little.
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That is what I’m founding too at the moment. Seems to bring it back to healthy levels but won’t go too low
 
"Telmisartan 20 to 160 mg once daily produced mean reductions in supine trough systolic blood pressure and diastolic blood pressure of up to 15.5 and 10.5 mm Hg, respectively. Maximum blood pressure reduction occurred with a dosage of 40 to 80 mg/day."

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^based on that study, 10-20mg looks like a good starting point if asymptomatic. 10mg still shows cardiac benefits.
 
Nac said:
"Telmisartan 20 to 160 mg once daily produced mean reductions in supine trough systolic blood pressure and diastolic blood pressure of up to 15.5 and 10.5 mm Hg, respectively. Maximum blood pressure reduction occurred with a dosage of 40 to 80 mg/day."

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^based on that study, 10-20mg looks like a good starting point if asymptomatic. 10mg still shows cardiac benefits.
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Thanks for the link. Starting to be highly interested and my source has Pharma sooo
 
Nac said:
Hmmm well yeah it's obviously an Rx for BP, but it seems lots of guys are using for off-label purposes, it's got great data on vascular health in general, diuretic control, cardiac remodelling, etc etc. It works on the RAS which is the main system controlling vascular constriction/relaxation, and water, and so on.

Dudes like Victor Black, Vigorous Steve, etc champion the stuff. It does look really good for purposes beyond just blood pressure control. I'd be tempted to take it at a low dose (10-20mg) to avoid it changing my BP, which is already good, solely for its other benefits.
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I think the diuretic effect is from the telmisartan/hydrochlorothiazide form , but not telmisartan in its own
 
Iwilleattuna said:
I think the diuretic effect is from the telmisartan/hydrochlorothiazide form , but not telmisartan in its own
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Yes, hydrochlorothiazide from my understanding operates through the sodium pathway. Telmisartan works through the RAS system, so will impact aldosterone (lowering angiotensin-ll) which is also a contributor to sodium/potassium balance...the impact here is more secondary compared to the more potent diuretic effect of hydrochloro-. But the potential is there, simply due to the system it impacts upon.

I only mentioned it because Telmisartan seems to have a much broader application/impact than simply hypertensive reductions. Victor Black goes into this side of it much more completely than I've crudely touched on.
 
Interesting thread. I’ve mentioned elsewhere it’s one I’m looking at after hearing Derek talk about it a lot.

my supplement regime does already cover a lot of the wider application areas and my bp is generally fine even on cycle which is probably the only reason I haven’t gone the route yet, but I do think it’s a really interesting and useful compound
 
GreenMachineX said:
Have any of y'all looked into the potential cancer issue with it?
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Really? Everything I've read shows ARBs (Telmisartan specifically) to be ANTI-cancerous/cell proliferation. What's your source on this?
 
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Telly is also a PPARy agonist. It has a host of positive metabolic effects over time:

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The lone argument I have really seen postulated against using bp meds is that chronic use inevitably would lead to heart deconditioning with age. But using only during blasts seems to my non-medical self like it would circumvent that issue.
 
Hyde said:
Telly is also a PPARy agonist. It has a host of positive metabolic effects over time:

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The lone argument I have really seen postulated against using bp meds is that chronic use inevitably would lead to heart deconditioning with age. But using only during blasts seems to my non-medical self like it would circumvent that issue.
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Is it something you’ll consider?
 
Mathb33 said:
Is it something you’ll consider?
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Yes. I acquired some and will use if necessary on next blast over Carditone. It’s the first choice pharmaceutical intervention I would consider based on the PubMed you can explore showing it’s efficacy, how well it is received, the host of benefits.

If you get 80mg tabs and quarter them, you are really spending extremely small amounts per day compared to most otc supplements. Not that cost should be the first concern when looking at health, by a long shot. But it’s a factor for some folks.

If you are going to be using 19-Nors, EQ, DHB or compounds that are more nephrotoxic independent of your blood pressure, it makes sense to me.
 
Hyde said:
Telly is also a PPARy agonist. It has a host of positive metabolic effects over time:

Invalid Link Removed

The lone argument I have really seen postulated against using bp meds is that chronic use inevitably would lead to heart deconditioning with age. But using only during blasts seems to my non-medical self like it would circumvent that issue.
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That's awesome, hadn't come across the PPAR thing.
 
Nac said:
That's awesome, hadn't come across the PPAR thing.
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I heard Leo postulating on his podcast that it can promote androgenic-deposited organ fat to be liberated and redeposit as surface subcutaneous fat, causing a softer look.

But it’s well documented that visceral fat is associated with higher mortality and subcutaneous much less so, and subcutaneous is much easier to burn off, so if that happens just do some damn cardio and burn it off - simple solution to a silly worry IMO.
 
Nac said:
Yes, hydrochlorothiazide from my understanding operates through the sodium pathway. Telmisartan works through the RAS system, so will impact aldosterone (lowering angiotensin-ll) which is also a contributor to sodium/potassium balance...the impact here is more secondary compared to the more potent diuretic effect of hydrochloro-. But the potential is there, simply due to the system it impacts upon.

I only mentioned it because Telmisartan seems to have a much broader application/impact than simply hypertensive reductions. Victor Black goes into this side of it much more completely than I've crudely touched on.
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Okay, the effects on aldosterone would make sense. I've seen this about ace inhibitors too. Definitely better options than beta blockers.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Hyperkalemia?
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Yes, that’s actually a risk on the medication so fair lol . They do say to limit potassium while taking. I don’t personally take any bp meds, I’m a firm believer in diet, cardio and supps for bp however, I think the first defense should always be a mild diuretic dose if going pharma
 
Iwilleattuna said:
Changes the bodies potassium/sodium ratio to more favorably towards potassium. @Nac can mistake me if I’m wrong but it that’s the case, how is that bad?
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It's a risk, sure. Just like prolonged qt interval is a potential risk with Toremifene and arrhythmia is a potential risk with clomid and so on..these are drugs, user beware, do your research.
 
Nac said:
It's a risk, sure. Just like prolonged qt interval is a potential risk with Toremifene and arrhythmia is a potential risk with clomid and so on..these are drugs, user beware, do your research.
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I agree and definitely would always choose an ace inhibitor or arb over beta blocker
 
I just started my telmisartan up again after this thread. I forgot all the other benefits when I stopped taking it and was only thinking blood pressure.

Has anyone looked into the ACE/ARB thing with Covid in a while?
 
GreenMachineX said:
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Looks like this study shows it helps fight covid-19.
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Excellent news. Now I feel really good about getting the 80mg tabs (plan for on-blast support is to 1/4 them). On cycle I planned 20mg as a support potentially, but they used 160mg in this study for the drastic anti-inflammatory over a short spell for COVID for anyone who didn’t read it.
 
Hyde said:
Excellent news. Now I feel really good about getting the 80mg tabs (plan for on-blast support is to 1/4 them). On cycle I planned 20mg as a support potentially, but they used 160mg in this study for the drastic anti-inflammatory over a short spell for COVID for anyone who didn’t read it.
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I'm just staying on 40mg since I don't cycle; on my TRT. I'm confident that, optimal vitamin D levels and resveratrol and I'm covered.
 
Hyde said:
Telly is also a PPARy agonist. It has a host of positive metabolic effects over time:

Invalid Link Removed

The lone argument I have really seen postulated against using bp meds is that chronic use inevitably would lead to heart deconditioning with age. But using only during blasts seems to my non-medical self like it would circumvent that issue.
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How would bp meds lead to deconditioning of the heart?
 
GreenMachineX said:
How would bp meds lead to deconditioning of the heart?
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This was more about elderly folks dying of the heart giving out as diastolic bp gets too low in advanced age. It was an interesting argument and I’m not sure I fully understand it even.

But it just gave me pause to consider the notion that there could be longterm ramifications I have never considered, and I should be mindful before electing to add prescription drugs forever without a doctor even being in the picture weighing in. That there could be unintended consequences that won’t manifest for decades.

Not a doctor. I just lift rusty weights in my garage
 
@Nac everyone interested I finally decided to go with an ace inhibitor finally.. it’s going to be lisinopril. Telmisartan seemed very very promising and maybe even had MORE benefits (lowering ht and hemo etc) BUT... I’ve seen a few people (known and very knowledgeable personalities like Ben chow) use telmisartan initially and ended up with extremely high liver values to the point of vomiting and feeling extremely bad. After reading I saw that it’s only happening to % of people but that isn’t something I will risk while bodybuilding. lisinopril Is the most used and most secure ace i and has amazing benefits so it’s going to be my pick. Now @Nac a question for you... do you think there’s any problem with running this and nattokinase at the same time?
 
Yeah dude, I saw Ben discuss this on Fouads podcast the other week.

Natto + lisinopril? Myself, I'd be comfortable with 100mg/2000fu and 10mg, I wouldn't anticipate any issues but that's based largely on my research of telmi, I haven't looked as closely at lisino.
 
Nac said:
Yeah dude, I saw Ben discuss this on Fouads podcast the other week.

Natto + lisinopril? Myself, I'd be comfortable with 100mg/2000fu and 10mg, I wouldn't anticipate any issues but that's based largely on my research of telmi, I haven't looked as closely at lisino.
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That’s where I got the info too! I checked a few studies and ended up seeing it’s a miracle promising drugs but with possible harsh side effects so I’m going for the safe one. I’ll do 10mg
 
Mathb33 said:
@Nac everyone interested I finally decided to go with an ace inhibitor finally.. it’s going to be lisinopril. Telmisartan seemed very very promising and maybe even had MORE benefits (lowering ht and hemo etc) BUT... I’ve seen a few people (known and very knowledgeable personalities like Ben chow) use telmisartan initially and ended up with extremely high liver values to the point of vomiting and feeling extremely bad. After reading I saw that it’s only happening to % of people but that isn’t something I will risk while bodybuilding. lisinopril Is the most used and most secure ace i and has amazing benefits so it’s going to be my pick. Now @Nac a question for you... do you think there’s any problem with running this and nattokinase at the same time?
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I haven't heard anything about liver toxicity from telmisartan. That sounds kind of crazy.
 
GreenMachineX said:
I haven't heard anything about liver toxicity from telmisartan. That sounds kind of crazy.
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Because it’s not a commonly known side effect. It’s pretty clear in all study that most other ARBs have been implicated in rare but serious instances of symptomatic hepatotoxicity. There’s many cases of it happening and even tho it only happens in (random number) 5% of clients, I’d rather go for a ace inhibitors with whom it’s never happend and has been used for way longer than telmisartan. That’s what I meant
 
So just breezed through some of these posts and now I’m wondering about the beta blocker I’ve been on for probably 20 years. Doc has me on 40mg of nadalol daily. Before that it propanol. I was diagnosed with mvp in my early twenties. Are there better options than what I’m on now? I occasionally feel a flutter, and sometimes get palpitations, but it’s all pretty minimal. Just curious if I should ask my doc about other options.
 
hyperCat said:
So just breezed through some of these posts and now I’m wondering about the beta blocker I’ve been on for probably 20 years. Doc has me on 40mg of nadalol daily. Before that it propanol. I was diagnosed with mvp in my early twenties. Are there better options than what I’m on now? I occasionally feel a flutter, and sometimes get palpitations, but it’s all pretty minimal. Just curious if I should ask my doc about other options.
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You regularly getting in pomegranate juice (ideally) or pome supplements? I do both, damn near 100% reduced my palps.
 
@Nac what was that magical extract that you posted about a couple weeks back? I had noted it somewhere but forgot... I just bought everything for my yearly stack and forgot that specific thing.
 
Nac said:
You regularly getting in pomegranate juice (ideally) or pome supplements? I do both, damn near 100% reduced my palps.
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I’m taking a Pom extract supp. Not sure it’s the right one as it mentions no ellagic acid on the label.
 
Mathb33 said:
@Nac what was that magical extract that you posted about a couple weeks back? I had noted it somewhere but forgot... I just bought everything for my yearly stack and forgot that specific thing.
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I'm not sure...only ones I remember posting about in that time was natto, pome, dates, Pine bark...? Nothing really magical (well, pome+dates is pretty close to magical).
 
Nac said:
I'm not sure...only ones I remember posting about in that time was natto, pome, dates, Pine bark...? Nothing really magical (well, pome+dates is pretty close to magical).
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I think it was pomegranate extract ?? Is that it? I can’t remember why you suggested it tho
 
Nac said:
I'm not sure...only ones I remember posting about in that time was natto, pome, dates, Pine bark...? Nothing really magical (well, pome+dates is pretty close to magical).
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I am officially addicted to the dates, in a great way. 3 a day at once, every day, and I look forward to them so much we are going on vacation for a week and I bought a pack last night to bring so I don’t miss them. I also have to put the container away before I eat them so I am not tempted to overeat them. Been doing these daily for probably a month now? I have went through multiple lbs certainly.

I eat them along with my coffee and proats pre-training, and on off-days I have them as a desert or with a smaller meal to add satiety.
 
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