Tbol Vs Ostarine

[YamahaC76]

Just wondering if anybody has done both here? The more I'm easing into AAS, the more I realize that untested compounds long term like LGD and Ostarine are dangerous. But a TBOL and Ostarine cycle of 6 weeks has peaked my interest coming up in winter. Has anybody done this combo?

How harsh is TBOL on the HPTA?

 

[CatSnake]

Just wondering if anybody has done both here? The more I'm easing into AAS, the more I realize that untested compounds long term like LGD and Ostarine are dangerous. But a TBOL and Ostarine cycle of 6 weeks has peaked my interest coming up in winter. Has anybody done this combo?

How harsh is TBOL on the HPTA?

I wouldn't stack them, since neither one can aromatize. without that, you'll run into some low E2 issues on cycle...

 

[rascal14]

I don’t see a point in using Ostarine on Tbol. Save the money and get a test base.

 

[jgntyce]

Test and tbol was my first cycle. No regrets and the gains were awesome.

 

[mike33511]

Ostarine is pretty much useless unless you're looking to preserve muscle in a caloric deficit. A 5mg dose would be enough to accomplish this.

12 weeks of test E with a 6 week Tbol kicker. That's what you want, whether you realize it or not.

 

[Dz23]

Test and tbol is deffo the way to go man I had a great cycle on that and was vascular as a mother ****er

 

[YamahaC76]

Ostarine is pretty much useless unless you're looking to preserve muscle in a caloric deficit. A 5mg dose would be enough to accomplish this.

12 weeks of test E with a 6 week Tbol kicker. That's what you want, whether you realize it or not.

Test and tbol was my first cycle. No regrets and the gains were awesome.

That was the impression I got from the cycle. I liked the strength gains but would have appreciated some more size, and maybe a little bit more strength. But further reinforcing it, you guys sold me on it. I think 250 Test C with Tbol kicker? 12 week. This seems like what I'm looking for.

Suppression on Ostarine hits about week 5, noticeably. So, I don't think I'm really considering LGD at all. I'd probably throw mk-677 into the mix.

 

[hairygrandpa]

That was the impression I got from the cycle. I liked the strength gains but would have appreciated some more size, and maybe a little bit more strength. But further reinforcing it, you guys sold me on it. I think 250 Test C with Tbol kicker? 12 week. This seems like what I'm looking for.

Suppression on Ostarine hits about week 5, noticeably. So, I don't think I'm really considering LGD at all. I'd probably throw mk-677 into the mix.

Before buying Tbol, get a sample from your source and buy a Turinabol "roid test" on amazon for about $25.- , like I did:

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Tbol is my favorite oral, very few sides -if any, justifying the only moderate size -and strength gains.

 

[YamahaC76]

iv'e read that T-BOL can wreck your HPTA, but iv'e also read SARMS can do that too and my libido and HPTA is fine after 25mg ED of ostarine, two cycles, 6&8 weeks.

 

[mike33511]

That was the impression I got from the cycle. I liked the strength gains but would have appreciated some more size, and maybe a little bit more strength. But further reinforcing it, you guys sold me on it. I think 250 Test C with Tbol kicker? 12 week. This seems like what I'm looking for.

Suppression on Ostarine hits about week 5, noticeably. So, I don't think I'm really considering LGD at all. I'd probably throw mk-677 into the mix.

500.

 

[YamahaC76]

500.

Seems to be the consensus, I don't think ill fight you on this either, I want the gains, I don't want to waste my own time lol.

 

[YamahaC76]

So contrary to doing each compound individually , Test and Tbol can be run simultaneously for a first time gear run?

 

[MrKleen73]

So contrary to doing each compound individually , Test and Tbol can be run simultaneously for a first time gear run?

Anything can be run for a first time run, but jumping into the deep end to learn how to swim is often a lot less enjoyable than learning where your feet can touch the bottom.

Ideally if you truly want to know what each compound does for you then 500mg of Test E or C a week for 12 weeks will be a nice first run. TBol is very user friendly in my opinion, it has a good bit of bang for the buck when it comes to milder orals. So it is a pretty safe first oral. Nothing wrong with running it with your first cycle and the results will be great. Just make sure you are taking enough TUDCA and NAC, plus keep an eye on blood pressure and you will be good to go!!!!

I agree with everyone here, 12 weeks test e or c @ 500mg, 6 weeks of TBol 50-80mg a day = a damn nice cycle!!!!!!!

 

[Glycomann]

You might end up with low estrogen issues. I can see Turinabol overshadowing ostarine. Turinabol adds strength and not a lot of mass. The beter way to use Ostarine is probably as a base of a SARM stack maybe using it with Ligandrol or one of the others. It seems that people respond to the different SARMs a little differently. Turinabol is a different anamal all together. It's like a turbo booster on a TRT protocol. On it's own you might have low E issues by the end of a cycle with it. Once you start playing around with these things the steroid homeostasis is going to be out of whack. Keeping a little estrogen but not to much around is a key in this. These guy that do 500 mg of test and add in other stuff are probably in a shambles as far as estrogen/androgen/anabolic ratios.

 

[YamahaC76]

Anything can be run for a first time run, but jumping into the deep end to learn how to swim is often a lot less enjoyable than learning where your feet can touch the bottom.

Ideally if you truly want to know what each compound does for you then 500mg of Test E or C a week for 12 weeks will be a nice first run. TBol is very user friendly in my opinion, it has a good bit of bang for the buck when it comes to milder orals. So it is a pretty safe first oral. Nothing wrong with running it with your first cycle and the results will be great. Just make sure you are taking enough TUDCA and NAC, plus keep an eye on blood pressure and you will be good to go!!!!

I agree with everyone here, 12 weeks test e or c @ 500mg, 6 weeks of TBol 50-80mg a day = a damn nice cycle!!!!!!!

I appreciate the input brother. I think this sounds like the right type of cake. I read the German testing on tbol went up to 35mg with no adverse effects noticed. 50mg for 6 weeks though is the real deal? Was considering maybe only a 4 week run.

I think it's about that time. I think SARMS are great for newcomers to see what a PED is capable of. As far as TUDCA goes, what is the recommended dose? I was going to run K1ngs Guard by OL.

Do I need to taper up with the Test C? Stuff with me tends to hit hard. My first dose of ostarine at 25mg knocked me down good...took me a day to recover. I found tapering up from 5mg doing a +5mg a day rectified this until I hit my 25mg mark. I think it would be rather crazy for 500mg to hit me at once haha. If somebody could explain briefly how the test ester releases/activates in the stream, I'd appreciate it. Thanks guys!

EDIT: Also, use of AI exemestane while 'on' over arimidex? Friendlier on hairline or doesn't matter? I pretty much know what to expect with 500mg Test C though.

 

[MrKleen73]

I appreciate the input brother. I think this sounds like the right type of cake. I read the German testing on tbol went up to 35mg with no adverse effects noticed. 50mg for 6 weeks though is the real deal? Was considering maybe only a 4 week run.

I think it's about that time. I think SARMS are great for newcomers to see what a PED is capable of. As far as TUDCA goes, what is the recommended dose? I was going to run K1ngs Guard by OL.

Do I need to taper up with the Test C? Stuff with me tends to hit hard. My first dose of ostarine at 25mg knocked me down good...took me a day to recover. I found tapering up from 5mg doing a +5mg a day rectified this until I hit my 25mg mark. I think it would be rather crazy for 500mg to hit me at once haha. If somebody could explain briefly how the test ester releases/activates in the stream, I'd appreciate it. Thanks guys!

EDIT: Also, use of AI exemestane while 'on' over arimidex? Friendlier on hairline or doesn't matter? I pretty much know what to expect with 500mg Test C though.

Yeah you can tun the TBol for 4 weeks. If so I would run it higher though. I was going 6 at 50mg to keep everything mild but effective for your first run. Maybe 85-80 if four weeks and really wanting to see a kick. As far as the Test shoot twice a week 250, and 250 every 3.5 days. I have just always done them on Tuesday evening, and Saturday mornings just to have them spread apart. Test E and C have 5-6 day half life depending on the reference source you look at. Which is why 2 doses a week are ideal to keep levels more stable rather than dipping up and down by half with only one shot a week.

Hair loss you might want to grab monoxodyl if you feel you are prone to hair loss and trying to retain it. I would not use an AI to limit aromatization to avoid DHT... You want estrogen in your system or you won't make as many gains and your system won't run right. Energy and even erection issues can be a result of to low estrogen levels.

Either of the options you mentioned are suitable for 500mg IF AND ONLY IF you start experiencing high estrogen sides. Do not start your cycle off using an AI... Especially on 500mg you may not need it at all.

TUDCA get in no less than 500mg a day while running the oral, if you go over 50mg to do the 4 weeks then 750-1000mg. Then you can do 250-500 the rest of the cycle when only injection based gear is being used. I don't know the exact profile of that product so I can't recommend how many servings that would be out of it or if it even has TUDCA in it. For liver specifically I am using Gun Show Supplements Clear, it has 250mg TUDCA & 250mg NAC per cap, same price as most companies TUDCA alone. They even sell TUDCA in a bulk powder.

 

[YamahaC76]

Yeah you can tun the TBol for 4 weeks. If so I would run it higher though. I was going 6 at 50mg to keep everything mild but effective for your first run. Maybe 85-80 if four weeks and really wanting to see a kick. As far as the Test shoot twice a week 250, and 250 every 3.5 days. I have just always done them on Tuesday evening, and Saturday mornings just to have them spread apart. Test E and C have 5-6 day half life depending on the reference source you look at. Which is why 2 doses a week are ideal to keep levels more stable rather than dipping up and down by half with only one shot a week.

Hair loss you might want to grab monoxodyl if you feel you are prone to hair loss and trying to retain it. I would not use an AI to limit aromatization to avoid DHT... You want estrogen in your system or you won't make as many gains and your system won't run right. Energy and even erection issues can be a result of to low estrogen levels.

Either of the options you mentioned are suitable for 500mg IF AND ONLY IF you start experiencing high estrogen sides. Do not start your cycle off using an AI... Especially on 500mg you may not need it at all.

TUDCA get in no less than 500mg a day while running the oral, if you go over 50mg to do the 4 weeks then 750-1000mg. Then you can do 250-500 the rest of the cycle when only injection based gear is being used. I don't know the exact profile of that product so I can't recommend how many servings that would be out of it or if it even has TUDCA in it. For liver specifically I am using Gun Show Supplements Clear, it has 250mg TUDCA & 250mg NAC per cap, same price as most companies TUDCA alone. They even sell TUDCA in a bulk powder.

You guys have been a huge help, I am actually really looking forward to this now. As far as the hair loss is concerned, does monoxodiyl block DHT at the scalp? I use it currently, and I can say it does help. I'm just trying to gauge if the hair loss talk is overplayed/overhyped, which tends to happen with lots of "reading" but not a lot of "doing". And you can never say for sure anyway until you start.

Ill be supplementing with TUDCA for safety then, I can easily get this stuff for cheap.

Now this is where I wanted to put out there something people don't do. I actually am friends with a few users out by me. He recommended to me to taper off the test for about 4-6 weeks slowly like a 250/100/100/75/50/25, then start on a SERM. He told me this helped keep the gains on the cycle as opposed to stopping cold turkey and using a SERM. So, just curious if anybody has done this, or anything close to this taper? I know ill lose some gains inevitably, but I'm talking more about keepable muscle really.

Of course, this puts the cycle at closer to 5 months than a 3 month thing, not sure how rough this would be on me @25 as a first time gear run. I also plan to keep running mk677 with all this, and maybe HGH frag as well.

 

[CatSnake]

You guys have been a huge help, I am actually really looking forward to this now. As far as the hair loss is concerned, does monoxodiyl block DHT at the scalp? I use it currently, and I can say it does help. I'm just trying to gauge if the hair loss talk is overplayed/overhyped, which tends to happen with lots of "reading" but not a lot of "doing". And you can never say for sure anyway until you start.

Ill be supplementing with TUDCA for safety then, I can easily get this stuff for cheap.

Now this is where I wanted to put out there something people don't do. I actually am friends with a few users out by me. He recommended to me to taper off the test for about 4-6 weeks slowly like a 250/100/100/75/50/25, then start on a SERM. He told me this helped keep the gains on the cycle as opposed to stopping cold turkey and using a SERM. So, just curious if anybody has done this, or anything close to this taper? I know ill lose some gains inevitably, but I'm talking more about keepable muscle really.

Of course, this puts the cycle at closer to 5 months than a 3 month thing, not sure how rough this would be on me @25 as a first time gear run. I also plan to keep running mk677 with all this, and maybe HGH frag as well.

that taper is a silly idea....

tapering like that doesn't help your body, since the only way you'll recover is by being off. (IMO, there are a couple situations to use a taper, but they're rather specific and kinda rare).

anyway, ask your buddy why he would ever shoot 25 mg of test... seriously, ask him the reason.

^FWIW, any amount of an outside androgen is going to cause an equal amount of suppression. so taking even a small amount simply suppresses you a small amount with no net gain.

EDIT: to be clear, I'm not trying to be a jerk to you, but get annoyed when people give bad advice like your buddy gave you...

 

[MrKleen73]

that taper is a silly idea....

tapering like that doesn't help your body, since the only way you'll recover is by being off. (IMO, there are a couple situations to use a taper, but they're rather specific and kinda rare).

anyway, ask your buddy why he would ever shoot 25 mg of test... seriously, ask him the reason.

^FWIW, any amount of an outside androgen is going to cause an equal amount of suppression. so taking even a small amount simply suppresses you a small amount with no net gain.

EDIT: to be clear, I'm not trying to be a jerk to you, but get annoyed when people give bad advice like your buddy gave you...

No doubt.

OP tellyour buddy that he really needs to read up on how the HTPA system works because what he said and did was wrong and I can promise you he did not keep any extra mass out of it. Just someone who misunderstood something they saw somewhere, or heard it from a friend and took it to be true.

Glad you brought that up here because that is bro science at its worst right there....

 

[Whacked]

Any water weight or Lethargy from TBOL?

 

[Glycomann]

No doubt.

OP tellyour buddy that he really needs to read up on how the HTPA system works because what he said and did was wrong and I can promise you he did not keep any extra mass out of it. Just someone who misunderstood something they saw somewhere, or heard it from a friend and took it to be true.

Glad you brought that up here because that is bro science at its worst right there....

I think you ar leaving out a few things for thought here. Coming off AAS is not only a concern for HPTA. These things are metabolized in the body and those processes get activated and upregulated. The compounds, for instance, are glucunaosylatd, hydroxylated, otherwise conjugated and so on. The convert to beta 3 hydroxylated forms, DHT derivatives, setrogenic derivatives and many others such as those that are neauroactive. Tapering will allow those processed to tamp down over weeks before allowing them to leave the system through the intrinsic properties of their ester timeing release. There are also areas of cross talk from interconversion of these compounds that impacts other steroid pathway signaling such as mineralocorticoids, estrogen signaling, progesterin signaling. There is a lot going on and these things were not really designe to be ramped up into the ranges that most use for BBing purposes. For instance, coming down from 100 mg decedurabolin injected onceevery 17 days for 6 weeks is a lot different from coming down from 500 test E and 400 Deca durabolin inj weekly. You can PubMed and poke around in the abstracts for a couple hours looking into some of the key concepts here in and pronbably get a better drift of what I am describing here. Viewed through this mroe inclusive lense it is not so foolish to taper down from a BBing cycle before the next step.

 

[Glycomann]

No doubt.

OP tellyour buddy that he really needs to read up on how the HTPA system works because what he said and did was wrong and I can promise you he did not keep any extra mass out of it. Just someone who misunderstood something they saw somewhere, or heard it from a friend and took it to be true.

Glad you brought that up here because that is bro science at its worst right there....

I think you ar leaving out a few things for thought here. Coming off AAS is not only a concern for HPTA. These things are metabolized in the body and those processes get activated and upregulated. The compounds, for instance, are glucunaosylatd, hydroxylated, otherwise conjugated and so on. The convert to beta 3 hydroxylated forms, DHT derivatives, setrogenic derivatives and many others such as those that are neauroactive. Tapering will allow those processed to tamp down over weeks before allowing them to leave the system through the intrinsic properties of their ester timeing release. There are also areas of cross talk from interconversion of these compounds that impacts other steroid pathway signaling such as mineralocorticoids, estrogen signaling, progesterin signaling. There is a lot going on and these things were not really designe to be ramped up into the ranges that most use for BBing purposes. For instance, coming down from 100 mg decedurabolin injected onceevery 17 days for 6 weeks is a lot different from coming down from 500 test E and 400 Deca durabolin inj weekly. You can PubMed and poke around in the abstracts for a couple hours looking into some of the key concepts here in and pronbably get a better drift of what I am describing here. Viewed through this mroe inclusive lense it is not so foolish to taper down from a BBing cycle before the next step.

 

[MrKleen73]

I think you ar leaving out a few things for thought here. Coming off AAS is not only a concern for HPTA. These things are metabolized in the body and those processes get activated and upregulated. The compounds, for instance, are glucunaosylatd, hydroxylated, otherwise conjugated and so on. The convert to beta 3 hydroxylated forms, DHT derivatives, setrogenic derivatives and many others such as those that are neauroactive. Tapering will allow those processed to tamp down over weeks before allowing them to leave the system through the intrinsic properties of their ester timeing release. There are also areas of cross talk from interconversion of these compounds that impacts other steroid pathway signaling such as mineralocorticoids, estrogen signaling, progesterin signaling. There is a lot going on and these things were not really designe to be ramped up into the ranges that most use for BBing purposes. For instance, coming down from 100 mg decedurabolin injected onceevery 17 days for 6 weeks is a lot different from coming down from 500 test E and 400 Deca durabolin inj weekly. You can PubMed and poke around in the abstracts for a couple hours looking into some of the key concepts here in and pronbably get a better drift of what I am describing here. Viewed through this mroe inclusive lense it is not so foolish to taper down from a BBing cycle before the next step.

So are you saying a longer down time for HPTA, having less androgens and not starting a PCT for quite a while is going to help someone maintain more mass than getting off the gear doing a proper pct and getting their levels back up as quickly as possible? I mean we aren't talking about health benefits here but how to keep the most mass from the cycle.

To me that sounds more like health benefits of tapering down and not muscle mass retention benefits. I am not saying better health is not a good thing but that isn't what the guy told him it did. He told him it would help him keep more mass from the cycle.

Can you recommend one of the studies you have read that actually play into the idea that a long taper like that actually allows more muscle to be maintained. Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but typically the body goes into a bit of a shock during PCT which is probably what you are referring to with all of the metabolites you mentioned. This typically causes a massive spike in Cortisol which makes people catabolic, and they often lose muscle mass then. If that is the idea then okay, I see that but there is already an answer to that issue out there that is much easier than that taper. Add in a cortisol management supp... works like a charm!

 

[Glycomann]

So are you saying a longer down time for HPTA, having less androgens and not starting a PCT for quite a while is going to help someone maintain more mass than getting off the gear doing a proper pct and getting their levels back up as quickly as possible? I mean we aren't talking about health benefits here but how to keep the most mass from the cycle.

To me that sounds more like health benefits of tapering down and not muscle mass retention benefits. I am not saying better health is not a good thing but that isn't what the guy told him it did. He told him it would help him keep more mass from the cycle.

Can you recommend one of the studies you have read that actually play into the idea that a long taper like that actually allows more muscle to be maintained. Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but typically the body goes into a bit of a shock during PCT which is probably what you are referring to with all of the metabolites you mentioned. This typically causes a massive spike in Cortisol which makes people catabolic, and they often lose muscle mass then. If that is the idea then okay, I see that but there is already an answer to that issue out there that is much easier than that taper. Add in a cortisol management supp... works like a charm!

I really haven't seen you post publications that support the notion that tapering does not aid in recovery. I can probably post a number of publications that refer to steroid metabolism. There is an entire AAS drug detection industry built around many of these metabolites. AS you read through the literature over time you will find the diversity of steroid metabolites some groups that are active in signaling and others that are targeted for degradation. All I can tell you is try the taper. You might be surprised how little, if any, true mass you lose during the taper. You may enter into your post cycle therapy in better condition to respond since the system will have moved closer to a more normal state. You can build a taper into a cycle. The Classic era BBers didn't even have PCT. Taper was their PCT. They understood that the crash could be lessened if a taper was used. Referring to cortisol spike, it isn't truly a cortisol spike after cycle. It is a relief of cortisol signaling repression. For instance you can find articles specific to GR suppression from oxandrolone. Once the anabolic steroid is removed the ssytem is set to hyper-signal signal from the glucocorticoid receptor. Again, a taper from a high dose status to a lower one will allow the system to modulate to a lower response status rather than "crash" as the drug is more rapidly removed.

 

[MrKleen73]

I really haven't seen you post publications that support the notion that tapering does not aid in recovery. I can probably post a number of publications that refer to steroid metabolism. There is an entire AAS drug detection industry built around many of these metabolites. AS you read through the literature over time you will find the diversity of steroid metabolites some groups that are active in signaling and others that are targeted for degradation. All I can tell you is try the taper. You might be surprised how little, if any, true mass you lose during the taper. You may enter into your post cycle therapy in better condition to respond since the system will have moved closer to a more normal state. You can build a taper into a cycle. The Classic era BBers didn't even have PCT. Taper was their PCT. They understood that the crash could be lessened if a taper was used. Referring to cortisol spike, it isn't truly a cortisol spike after cycle. It is a relief of cortisol signaling repression. For instance you can find articles specific to GR suppression from oxandrolone. Once the anabolic steroid is removed the ssytem is set to hyper-signal signal from the glucocorticoid receptor. Again, a taper from a high dose status to a lower one will allow the system to modulate to a lower response status rather than "crash" as the drug is more rapidly removed.

Okay, that makes sense and again I never once said tapering does not aid in recovery. I actually kind of seconded that opinion when I said it would be a healthier option for sure. I was basically saying I don't see any way that it could help maintain more mass from a cycle than going directly into a PCT and recovering your HPTA faster, those are not the same things.

Admittedly, I am also thinking from the standpoint of a bodybuilder or someone who is really bulking and running multiple cycles in a year, not your average recreational user only trying to do one cycle a year. SHortening the time between effective cycle time is going to net more gains over the year. Obviously not the same thing but that piece is forward in my mind due to me planning to run 2 cycles this year to get ready for a show. Just kind of wedged itself into my mentality while discussing this.

Something else to consider also, Classic era bodybuilders did use nolvadex to control gyno in and after cycles. Nolvadex is also a SERM and could have also aided in a lot of that recovery even though it was not considered a PCT.

By the way I was genuinely asking for you to recommend some specific studies, so I could read them. I wasn't trying to call you out. It sounds like that was your impression from the first sentence in your response.

I imagine neither of us have studies to validate this claim on either side though. I can't imagine there has ever been a study to see what the best way to come off of a high dosed androgen cycle is in order to maintain the most muscle mass. We can theorize and extrapolate from other studies not specifically designed to test this theory and make references as to why we think the theory may hold water but that is probably about it unless you know of an actual study for this specific issue.

I will say that I retract my statement that his buddy is an idiot and say that there may be merit to that statement. I definitely think that the taper would offer a healthier option to coming off of a cycle. That said, I personally still feel it is unlikely you will retain more mass in the end once PCT is completely over. I could be wrong... probably a 6 in one hand and half dozen in the other type of scenario where the benefits and weaknesses kind of cancel each other out.

Again, if you have a study or two that you felt really spoke to why you feel this way I would love to get a chance to read them. I am not interested enough to filter through hundreds of studies trying to find a few that may be useful in figuring some of this out. However would definitely go read a few if you could refer any of them to me. Obviously if you have to go look them back up yourself then it probably isn't worth the bother. Hell even some good search options that might bring up studies that validate some of this.

By the way what is your education? YOu sound pretty damn knowledgeable. Are you getting a formal education in this area or just someone who loves to peruse research on their own?

 

[fueledpassion]

500.

Agreed.

And for what it is worth regarding tapering, everything else we take that changes the neuro circuitry needs to be tapered. I'm talking opiates and various stims. All those drugs jack with a lot of the same receptors and hormones as testosterone & it's derivatives do. So from a point of observation, tapering might serve a decent purpose in cycling at least in regard to dopamine & serotonin levels, which is really the part of the "crash" that hits our mental state the hardest.

 

[CatSnake]

I really haven't seen you post publications that support the notion that tapering does not aid in recovery. I can probably post a number of publications that refer to steroid metabolism. There is an entire AAS drug detection industry built around many of these metabolites. AS you read through the literature over time you will find the diversity of steroid metabolites some groups that are active in signaling and others that are targeted for degradation. All I can tell you is try the taper. You might be surprised how little, if any, true mass you lose during the taper. You may enter into your post cycle therapy in better condition to respond since the system will have moved closer to a more normal state. You can build a taper into a cycle. The Classic era BBers didn't even have PCT. Taper was their PCT. They understood that the crash could be lessened if a taper was used. Referring to cortisol spike, it isn't truly a cortisol spike after cycle. It is a relief of cortisol signaling repression. For instance you can find articles specific to GR suppression from oxandrolone. Once the anabolic steroid is removed the ssytem is set to hyper-signal signal from the glucocorticoid receptor. Again, a taper from a high dose status to a lower one will allow the system to modulate to a lower response status rather than "crash" as the drug is more rapidly removed.

what taper are you referring to?

the OP posted a taper that included absurdly low doses of testosterone.... are you saying that is effective in maintaining mass?

 

[Glycomann]

Okay, that makes sense and again I never once said tapering does not aid in recovery. I actually kind of seconded that opinion when I said it would be a healthier option for sure. I was basically saying I don't see any way that it could help maintain more mass from a cycle than going directly into a PCT and recovering your HPTA faster, those are not the same things.

Admittedly, I am also thinking from the standpoint of a bodybuilder or someone who is really bulking and running multiple cycles in a year, not your average recreational user only trying to do one cycle a year. SHortening the time between effective cycle time is going to net more gains over the year. Obviously not the same thing but that piece is forward in my mind due to me planning to run 2 cycles this year to get ready for a show. Just kind of wedged itself into my mentality while discussing this.

Something else to consider also, Classic era bodybuilders did use nolvadex to control gyno in and after cycles. Nolvadex is also a SERM and could have also aided in a lot of that recovery even though it was not considered a PCT.

By the way I was genuinely asking for you to recommend some specific studies, so I could read them. I wasn't trying to call you out. It sounds like that was your impression from the first sentence in your response.

I imagine neither of us have studies to validate this claim on either side though. I can't imagine there has ever been a study to see what the best way to come off of a high dosed androgen cycle is in order to maintain the most muscle mass. We can theorize and extrapolate from other studies not specifically designed to test this theory and make references as to why we think the theory may hold water but that is probably about it unless you know of an actual study for this specific issue.

I will say that I retract my statement that his buddy is an idiot and say that there may be merit to that statement. I definitely think that the taper would offer a healthier option to coming off of a cycle. That said, I personally still feel it is unlikely you will retain more mass in the end once PCT is completely over. I could be wrong... probably a 6 in one hand and half dozen in the other type of scenario where the benefits and weaknesses kind of cancel each other out.

Again, if you have a study or two that you felt really spoke to why you feel this way I would love to get a chance to read them. I am not interested enough to filter through hundreds of studies trying to find a few that may be useful in figuring some of this out. However would definitely go read a few if you could refer any of them to me. Obviously if you have to go look them back up yourself then it probably isn't worth the bother. Hell even some good search options that might bring up studies that validate some of this.

By the way what is your education? YOu sound pretty damn knowledgeable. Are you getting a formal education in this area or just someone who loves to peruse research on their own?

I'm a bit older than most of you guys. I have a Ph. D. in Biochemistry and have been working in research science for about 20 years. Thanks for the compliment. As far as retaining muscle from a cycle. What I have seem over time is most guys with a decent base of some years of training will retain a goodly mount of mas from their first cycle. After that it seems to fall back if enought time is taken offbetween cycles. Sad to say, most guys I have seen get really big didn't take a long time off whan they did and tended to blast and cruise. There were a few rare cases that seemed to hold a lot of mass for longer. After many years of training I have seem guys that used over many years maintain a lot of mass with low doses. Most of the time the added steroid mass seems to require some amount of PEDs to maintain. That first virgin cycle seems to be the one where most people hold onto the added muscle.

You also have to realize that 8-10 lbs of mass gained in a typical steroid cycle is from supraphysiological glycogen storage and other intra and extracellular water stores. So for instance if you go from 185 to 205 in your first cycle and thn 4 months after your PCT you are 195 and roughly the same composition as far as lean mass and fat mass you have probably put on and maintained 10 lbs. So everytime you go off your cycle you can assume that you will lose that 8 or so lbs, the steroid pump so to speak.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[MrKleen73]

I'm a bit older than most of you guys. I have a Ph. D. in Biochemistry and have been working in research science for about 20 years. Thanks for the compliment. As far as retaining muscle from a cycle. What I have seem over time is most guys with a decent base of some years of training will retain a goodly mount of mas from their first cycle. After that it seems to fall back if enought time is taken offbetween cycles. Sad to say, most guys I have seen get really big didn't take a long time off whan they did and tended to blast and cruise. There were a few rare cases that seemed to hold a lot of mass for longer. After many years of training I have seem guys that used over many years maintain a lot of mass with low doses. Most of the time the added steroid mass seems to require some amount of PEDs to maintain. That first virgin cycle seems to be the one where most people hold onto the added muscle.

You also have to realize that 8-10 lbs of mass gained in a typical steroid cycle is from supraphysiological glycogen storage and other intra and extracellular water stores. So for instance if you go from 185 to 205 in your first cycle and thn 4 months after your PCT you are 195 and roughly the same composition as far as lean mass and fat mass you have probably put on and maintained 10 lbs. So everytime you go off your cycle you can assume that you will lose that 8 or so lbs, the steroid pump so to speak.

Just my 2 cents.

I have definitely seen the same with gaining and dropping weight with gear after cycles. Heck my first 2 cycles I didn't have a clue about PCT, then again, that was 20+ years ago so not even sure they were being used at that point. Wasn't until the internet became saturated with information that I really started learning anything more than what a typical bro might.

RIght now I am pretty lucky, well not sure if lucky is the right word, but I am making the most out of my TRT by having mini cycles peppered in throughout this year, and tracking bloodwork to stay healthy. So the last 2 oral cycles the only thing I really lost were what I would call glycogen gains... that extra 4-5lbs that you are able to keep in due to the gear just like you mentioned.

As far as maintaining when I was not on TRT and this is obviously anecdotal evidence but the 2 cycles I kept the most from were ones that I was using a cortisol management supplement that I started using 1 week into the PCT. When I did that I did not lose that extra 3-ish lbs during PCT that I used too. So for me anyway that was the best post cycle maintenance of mass gains. Keeping an extra 3 or so pounds was definitely a pretty big deal.

 

[YamahaC76]

Hey guys, figured I'd bump this thread since it had a lot of good information on it. I am looking forward to getting the ball rolling on this. I never asked besides the taper, on what my PCT should look like, at responsible doses.

I have also considered anavar instead of tbol but once again I have no realistic idea what to expect from the orals. But from what I have read, Tbol just seems better in every way?

 

[Chados]

I don't know why people see tbol as a weak bulker, it adds qualitymass and while it should be dosed higher than drol or dbol it doesn't add any water so it's easier to keep, not even sure you'll get more lean mass with dbol. And what else do we have?, winstrol and anavar.. none of these can compare to tbol as a bulker, winstrol will definitely shred me more than tbol but even here i feel some of the gains are coming from drying me out rather than from bloat which will also be like a reversed dbol and instead of the water disappearing now will come back. Tbol you don't have to worry about your body all of the sudden will loose definition as much as with the others. Anyone disagreeing?

 

[Outofbody]

I used to love tbol, I just wish I didn't get such horrible acid reflux from it.

 

[YamahaC76]

I used to love tbol, I just wish I didn't get such horrible acid reflux from it.

I take acid reflux medicine already, so this isn't a concern to me. Regarding HPTA restart post cycle, most people don't have sides from Clomid right? I am just starting to see and respect the knowledge on here. I remember reading about the effects on the eyes clomid can have (causing floaters) but I believe this is the same % of people that suffer permanent ED from finasteride. There's tons of clinical data on this stuff.

I really just wouldn't mind the alpha feeling. I never really have had this in my life. Every once in awhile where everything for like a week is perfect. I work at a gym though, and iv'e seen every super babe in town, and it drives me the best crazy. I just want to be 20lb heavier in a good way. Stopping lifting in 2014 for a year was the dumbest thing iv'e done to date. Lost all my mass but the gains have never been slower.

 

[Outofbody]

I take acid reflux medicine already, so this isn't a concern to me.

I hear ya. I would also go for the tbol then as well.

Personally, I had to take high dosed omeprazole to handle the amount of all day / all night reflux it would give me. Omeprazole has been found to cause kidney damage as well, and our kidneys are already being taxed hard on cycle, so I decided to never use tbol or orals again.

 

[YamahaC76]

I hear ya. I would also go for the tbol then as well.

Personally, I had to take high dosed omeprazole to handle the amount of all day / all night reflux it would give me. Omeprazole has been found to cause kidney damage as well, and our kidneys are already being taxed hard on cycle, so I decided to never use tbol or orals again.

Ouch, this much I didn't know. This is exactly what I would take, and I really can't not take it. I take 20mg ED, but 6 weeks into Ostarine I had to double dose. I Take OL ar1micare pro, but not sure how much this does...better than nothing for sure though.

Didn't the Germans take tool @30mg ED for years?

 

[MrKleen73]

Tbol and Anavar are almost identical in how they respond in my opinion, with Anavar getting the tip of my hat due to it's ability to help with connective tissue. Just like Chados mentioned with Tbol, and Dbol I don't really see too much difference in total LBM gains from Var to TBol... I mean in the same way that you might gain 6lbs true lbm and extra 8lbs of water on Dbol than Tbol you might gain the same 6lbs lean muscle tissue, but only 2lbs of water on TBol over Var. However in the end the actual Lean tissue accrual is pretty damn close. Plus a lot of places interchange TBol and Var and just change labels...

I would put them at pretty damn interchangeable.

Forget Arimicare Pro!!!! Sorry, but I stressed to them over and over when I was repping for them that they needed an On cycle Support supplement that DID NOT HAVE AN AI!!!! You will have zero need for an AI and if not taking a test base you will really wish you weren't running the cycle with an AI...
80% of the legal stuff out there now does not need an AI but every damn kitchen sink on cycle support supp tosses one in there for good measure. Ugh!!!!

If not running something that aromatizes do not have an AI in your support supps!
Killing estro means killing gains, hurting joints and even worse, killing the libido... if not taking something that aromatizes then you are more than likely going to lower estrogen too much and low estrogen sucks too!!!!

 

[YamahaC76]

Tbol and Anavar are almost identical in how they respond in my opinion, with Anavar getting the tip of my hat due to it's ability to help with connective tissue. Just like Chados mentioned with Tbol, and Dbol I don't really see too much difference in total LBM gains from Var to TBol... I mean in the same way that you might gain 6lbs true lbm and extra 8lbs of water on Dbol than Tbol you might gain the same 6lbs lean muscle tissue, but only 2lbs of water on TBol over Var. However in the end the actual Lean tissue accrual is pretty damn close. Plus a lot of places interchange TBol and Var and just change labels...

I would put them at pretty damn interchangeable.

Forget Arimicare Pro!!!! Sorry, but I stressed to them over and over when I was repping for them that they needed an On cycle Support supplement that DID NOT HAVE AN AI!!!! You will have zero need for an AI and if not taking a test base you will really wish you weren't running the cycle with an AI...
80% of the legal stuff out there now does not need an AI but every damn kitchen sink on cycle support supp tosses one in there for good measure. Ugh!!!!

If not running something that aromatizes do not have an AI in your support supps!
Killing estro means killing gains, hurting joints and even worse, killing the libido... if not taking something that aromatizes then you are more than likely going to lower estrogen too much and low estrogen sucks too!!!!

Var helps with connective tissue? You may have convinced me to run this over tbol in this case. I don't care for water weight at all in all honesty. Nothing I couldn't just add mk-677 in for, (water) if I ever wanted it.

Yeah I think ill get another cycle support, maybe their k1ngs guard? I Like that one quite a bit as well, doesn't seem to have AI in there so it would be better, even though its more cash.

Regarding a Test base. Can I just run 4-andro with var or should I really consider just using a real Test Base. After running ostarine for longer than 4 weeks, I felt the suppression...and the side effects were very interesting.

The suppression had me being a little bit more upset at everything and not respecting my body as much. As a result, issues followed. Coupled with them not being tested, I'm done with SARMS. I honestly think people should just mess with short cycles of PH instead of SARMS.

 

[MrKleen73]

Var helps with connective tissue? You may have convinced me to run this over tbol in this case. I don't care for water weight at all in all honesty. Nothing I couldn't just add mk-677 in for, (water) if I ever wanted it.

Yeah I think ill get another cycle support, maybe their k1ngs guard? I Like that one quite a bit as well, doesn't seem to have AI in there so it would be better, even though its more cash.

Regarding a Test base. Can I just run 4-andro with var or should I really consider just using a real Test Base. After running ostarine for longer than 4 weeks, I felt the suppression...and the side effects were very interesting.

The suppression had me being a little bit more upset at everything and not respecting my body as much. As a result, issues followed. Coupled with them not being tested, I'm done with SARMS. I honestly think people should just mess with short cycles of PH instead of SARMS.

There is some supporting research that Anavar helps with collagen production which helps connective tissue. Also a lot of anecdotal evidence similar to what you might see with nandralone.

If you can run 4-andro high enough sure, but would get expensive. If you are going to get gear anyway though, get real testosterone!!! If you are afraid of needles then look for someone who can make a transdermal solution for you. They are out there for sure!!!

 

[Chados]

I agree that tbol and var have kind of the Same type of gains and also epistane to throw one more in there.. however in my opinion and since both tbol and var are often fake it can be even harder for people to distinguish them, but.. I find tbol being the superior bulker by far actually, and the strenght will go up more. they are both expensive though. Anavar might be more beneficial to take away the last little fat you have on your body during a cut, but during a bulking cycle ( in my own experience) tbol will shred you up more. This of course of you put on 15-20 pounds and not 5

 

[MrKleen73]

I agree that tbol and var have kind of the Same type of gains and also epistane to throw one more in there.. however in my opinion and since both tbol and var are often fake it can be even harder for people to distinguish them, but.. I find tbol being the superior bulker by far actually, and the strenght will go up more. they are both expensive though. Anavar might be more beneficial to take away the last little fat you have on your body during a cut, but during a bulking cycle ( in my own experience) tbol will shred you up more. This of course of you put on 15-20 pounds and not 5

There in lies the rub right! One thing I will say is that he is not going to be upset with his gains either way if he runs either of them. If looking to put on more than 10 lbs I wouldn't run any of it without test though. Not that it won't work but just the cost does not make sense when Testosterone is so damn cheap!!!

In reality I would much rather see him run Test E or C at 500mg a week for 12-14 weeks with no orals. Give himself an excellent baseline to build any and all other cycles from. Unless just in a hurry to see the muscle when it comes to this being a hobby and whatnot running oil only is just better for you. I would much rather see beginners running oils than orals... Much less to deal with in many ways...

 

[Chados]

There in lies the rub right! One thing I will say is that he is not going to be upset with his gains either way if he runs either of them. If looking to put on more than 10 lbs I wouldn't run any of it without test though. Not that it won't work but just the cost does not make sense when Testosterone is so damn cheap!!!

In reality I would much rather see him run Test E or C at 500mg a week for 12-14 weeks with no orals. Give himself an excellent baseline to build any and all other cycles from. Unless just in a hurry to see the muscle when it comes to this being a hobby and whatnot running oil only is just better for you. I would much rather see beginners running oils than orals... Much less to deal with in many ways...

Absolutely agree

 

[YamahaC76]

Appreciate it guys. The reason for the Oral is because I just want experience with one, and my coach who is off the gear really reccomended anavar over the tbol due to the properties it has. But, he's also never done Tbol. I'd only run it the 4 weeks though. I really am just looking to put on the muscle as quickly as possible haha. I'm trying to become a bartender at an upper class establishment, and they do want a certain look. I'm not bad in the face at all haha, but at 156lb and 5'9, I really need some improvements.

For the sake of a consensus, I am running one of those orals at a good dose for 4 weeks. Unless I REALLY wouldn't see much. At this point, you guys got me at a tie between the two haha. Var vs Tbol.

I can vouch for the real stuff regarding the orals though, but you guys are going back and forth, you're making it hard to decide haha! Ill have liver support so that's not a concern, not a crazy drinker either. Maybe twice a month IF that...

 

[YamahaC76]

I agree that tbol and var have kind of the Same type of gains and also epistane to throw one more in there.. however in my opinion and since both tbol and var are often fake it can be even harder for people to distinguish them, but.. I find tbol being the superior bulker by far actually, and the strenght will go up more. they are both expensive though. Anavar might be more beneficial to take away the last little fat you have on your body during a cut, but during a bulking cycle ( in my own experience) tbol will shred you up more. This of course of you put on 15-20 pounds and not 5

Re-reading this, I am doing a bulk of course. Trying to supersize myself. So this is really the answer then correct?

 

[Chados]

Re-reading this, I am doing a bulk of course. Trying to supersize myself. So this is really the answer then correct?

I stand by that 100%, I really doubt people got real tbol of they call it less of a bulker than var. I don't think they are comparable as a bulker.

Winstrol, best oral for cutting or lean gains in my opinion, however some of that will be lost due to water coming back.

Tbol, will keep it clean and not dry you out like winstrol but you're not gonna see as much veins. Adds the most size of these and probably overall the most complete oral since it can do everything.

Anavar a mild tbol would be fair to say. I still think winstrol is a better bulker and better for a cut.

Basically its extremely hard to explain to someone who hasnt used it. Winstrol and anavar are absolute perfect to Finnish a cycle and clean your gains up and tbol is more of a kickstarter that will put this size on to clean up. However tbol doesn't really need to be cleaned up. Dbol or anadrol might need that. hope I made sense

 

[Godstrength]

...

 

[YamahaC76]

For a bulk I would use tbol with something as a base underneath (test, 4 ad or trest). Definitely run it for 6 weeks... If your going to do it go in as to get some results worthwhile.

Thanks, and 6 weeks @50mg ED? What is the general regular dose for tbol?

 

[Godstrength]

Thanks, and 6 weeks @50mg ED? What is the general regular dose for tbol?

...

 

[Chados]

Thanks, and 6 weeks @50mg ED? What is the general regular dose for tbol?

I bulked on 50 mg winstrol/test so yes you can at 50, but like godstrenght said 60 seems to be optimal. Then again 10 mg is not gonna make an insane difference and tbol is expensive

 

[Chados]

Accident two posts.

 

[YamahaC76]

Nice, so with good training and proper diet and macros, what Can I expect to gain/keep of solid muscle excluding water? The combination of Test and the oral I assume the oral helps as the Test C ester gets underway.