Tapering Yes or no?
- Thread starter hjunior58
- Start date
nosnmiveins
Well-known member
no tapering up or down, just a waste of gear
frozencore12
New member
For the little bit of test-level that is higher for a longer time you will down regulate some receptor populations, so its not worth it. Starting up, I think it is a good idea for one's first cycle for a particular gear, especially if you are succeptible to heart problems, etc.
ezza
Member
hehe tapering off narcotics hey? this is just my oppinion and don't have much to back it up with but i believe their is advantages to tapering off designer steroids cycles mainly if they are highly suppressive or you have run an extended cycle... i believe it helps stop a complete crash and helps ease into pct.
poopypants
Banned
???? whats the reasoning behind this?
Tease you balls back into production?
its not going to work or "ease" you into PCT. The drop is inevitable and all your really doing is giving your body less androgens then it was just using to have and its still just as suppressed. Drop all use at once and start an immediate reproduction protocol otherwise your just wasting product with subpar doses that wont do anything for helping you maintain your gains. Achieving homeostasis ASAP will help you keep those gains.
holyintellect
Well-known member
Tapering was down back in the day because guys mistakenly thought it would help them lessen the crash. We now know that suppression can occur even at the lowest of mgs...
holy
holy
ezza
Member
ok well i will give and an example of my reasoning based on an oral cycle with an 8-12 hr half life. So normally you would take be taking 2-3 caps a day for example. The idea is you keep blood levels stable for best gains but at the same time your basically being supressed 24/7... if you taper down to 1 cap and take it in the morning you still have high androgen levels while your awake so your likely not going to feel the negative effects of low test and by the time you go to sleep they will drop which allows the message to produce natural test. keeping in mind you produce most of your natural test at night anyway. well i did the taper down once with a 5 week super/phera/fini stack.. recovery was a dream and i'm pretty sure i was shutdown like a mofo. i also took a couple of otc ai's before bed and resumed a fairly standard nolva+ai pct.
ezza
Member
we also know that a lot of the side effects get more pronounced as dosages get higher... obviously higher doses will create faster and more severe supression or even complete shutdown. I'm pretty sure everyone will agree that they would rather be supressed than shutdown completely...i'm not saying everyone should be tapering all the time but i definitely think it would be usefull in longer or heavier cycles where complete shutdown is a possibility
ezza
Member
i prefere to think for myself mate, never got into the whole group thinking mentality... oh thats right the world is flat right? :nutkick:
holyintellect
Well-known member
I totall understand where you're coming from, but the flaw lies in how I think you recover from suppression/shutdown....You indicate that recovery would start at night, after the oral with the short half life has cleared your system...if that were true, there would be no need for PCT at all....suppression takes much longer to return to normal than a couple of hours. Sometimes it can take months...I dont think tapering is a bad thing, I just think it isnt efficient at restarting your testes.
holy
poopypants
Banned
agreed.
As you stated, most of production starts at night, and if one wants to avoid shutdown as much as possible then they would benifit with morn to noon doses throughout the whole cycle. BUT I think when it comes to the point you are already on cycle for weeks, even the dosing in the day is going to be enough exogenous sources to really minimize the amount made at night time production. In this case you might as well be pulsing and then your talking a whole nother animal.
Remember also most have tapered up to a dose throughout a cycle as they have seen necessary due to "tolerance" or just cause they felt like it. Dropping back down to the lesser dose depending on how low you go will def not bring the same effects and I think if I want my balls to start working I dont want to yoyo the response outta them with a flux between nightime and daytime signals. I want to get the serious HTPA starting SERM in there and all exogenous sources out, this will allow for the quickest recovery and reproduction of natural hormones. I think otherwise its a waste of supps and I coulda gained more just running straight to the finish instead of slowing or completely stopping gains while im not really even beginning normal production.
JMO
DR.D
Well-known member
It's not about avoiding crash, it's about limiting crash by staging a smoother recovery. You have inducible enzymes involved, proteins and globins changing ratios, electrolyte balance, and your thinking very black and white just saying it won't prevent crash. If you're gonna crash anyway, is it better to hit the wall at 75 mph or 25? Put the freakin' breaks on if you can! A wise man avoids all extremes, or he dies young. Tapering has it's place.
poopypants
Banned
AHHHHH!!!!! nice to see ya round D!!
great to have a voice with some weight behind it....
But is it really possible to START any type of production while still introducing an exogenous source??? I can understand the drop off the previous androgen is lessend but how does this really effect the time it takes to jumpstart natty production if your still supressing yourself???
great to have a voice with some weight behind it....
But is it really possible to START any type of production while still introducing an exogenous source??? I can understand the drop off the previous androgen is lessend but how does this really effect the time it takes to jumpstart natty production if your still supressing yourself???
tnick7
Active member
Dr.D and poopypants back. Guys from the days when I read and not post. Days I was seen but not heard
AFAIK it is not possible to start any production while still introducing an exogenous source.
Dr.D could you explain further? You are not going to steadily become less shut down (are you?). In fact is it not more likely that tapering will increase the cycle length, making it harder to restart HPTA???
Thanks
holyintellect
Well-known member
I realize there are other variables besides the actual chemical itself. I also realize that there may very well be valid uses for a taper, but as it pertains to steroids, injectibles in particular, this theory does not hold up.
Lets say I take 500mgs (or a gram, it really doesnt matter) of testosterone cypionate for 12 weeks. At some point relatively early on, I am going to experience suppression of the testes, perhaps even total suppression. Obviously this can be predicted, but even when you can "feel" the onset, you wont know to what degree. Around week 9 or 10 I start tapering down, maybe to 250mgs. Well, at this point we can agree that Im certainly going to be experiencing suppression....again, we can predict this, but not to the exact degree. 250mgs is absolutely enough exogenous testosterone to continue suppression (or shutdown whichever the individual case may be). At this point, not only am I still suppressed, but I have even less available testosterone due to the tapering down, so Im probably going to start feeling the effect. Even if I dont though, at the very least Im not putting myself in a positive position hormone wise. Recovery will not begin until the hypothalamus senses that it needs to send the signal to pituatary gland to remind those testes to pump out some endogenous test again. It certainly isnt going to do this while we are still injecting 250mgs...
Admittedly there are many, many variables in play here. If I am forgetting something here that would make it more feasible, please tell me...I have had my mind changed before, and I even use protocol with some of my clients that was taught to me by others, so Im certainly willing to look through the window from your side...
holy
hjunior58
New member
This is exactly why i started this thread. Over the years of talking to people in the know and research I am still no closer to an answer, but it is pretty damn cool to have guys like Dr. D getting in on one of my first post. I hope to get alot more feedback on this topic bc i feel its one of the largest debates out there.
And by the way the narcotic refrence came from my experience with friends that went into rehab for drugs we wont mention. Tapering has been used as a method to bring addicts off of harsh narcotics that if quit altogether would cause severe reactions even death. This method found its way into the bodybuilding world but there have been no studies that i can find to validate its effectiveness.
And by the way the narcotic refrence came from my experience with friends that went into rehab for drugs we wont mention. Tapering has been used as a method to bring addicts off of harsh narcotics that if quit altogether would cause severe reactions even death. This method found its way into the bodybuilding world but there have been no studies that i can find to validate its effectiveness.
DR.D
Well-known member
Right, Holy, I agree with your points. After about 6wks some might even find it beneficial to increase doses a little, but lowering them will often cost you effectiveness. Once you're severely shutdown anyway, what's the point? I agree.
When I say taper (taper down specifically) I mean over 2-3wks, and with parenteral test cyp that happens naturally after the last administration. As far as tapering up with esters, one certainly doesn't need to unless they're very gyno prone or something, and it can actually be better to front the dose once all is considered.
With orals, tapering can be truly useful in helping to deemphasize inevitable shutdown and shortening recovery latency. Avoiding crash in other words. Except with orals, it's generally not beneficial to taper. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
DR.D
Well-known member
Yes Sir, this is applicable to many things in life. With a narcotics addict like your friend, it might have precipitate an acute state of shock physiologically if they hadn't tapered in rehab. Same with things that have deep glandular effects. Not just the testicles, the rest of the endocrine system as well. For example, never cold turkey T3 or T4, the crash can put you in the hospital. Give your body a chance to adapt into change. Did you know it's more toxic to quit smoking cold turkey that it is to keep smoking and tapering off over a few months?! It sounds crazy but that's no bull. Enzymes play a big role in this process, and usually take at least a few weeks to shift gears. Your body seeks homeostasis and must equilibrate to any significant changes.
I apologize for jumping into this thread without making my point more clear, but lots of people scoff at tapering without really understanding it. It can be useful and does have it's place.
tnick7
Active member
Well good to see you back. Is this a temporary comeback or permanent?
As for tapering orals, wouldnt a similar concept apply. Take SD as an example. I run it 20/20/20. By then you would imagine I would be reasonably shutdown. Now come the 4th week I taper down e.g 20-20-10-10-10-10EOD-10EOD-PCT. Now by tapering down my HPTA will not restore itself, if anything would it not continue to get worse? I guess my question is why/how does it differ for orals?
haroldjg
Member
If I was you, I would head over to TN and read up on the stasis-taper. It seems to work phenominally for most guys over there. Given, it is applied to injects, but you could stand to learn from the method. As well, I have toyed with the idea of doing a stasis taper myself but use Androsterone instead. Now it has been a while since I have even thought about Androsterone, but isnt the second step in the conversion to DHT not even reached until the muscle itself.... that being the reason why it is not deativated in the blood nearly instantly and why the suppression is so minimal??? If that is truly the case, I dont see why it couldn't be used very effectively for a micro-statis type protol. Similiar to using DHEA in the early stages of PCT, but more effective at maintaining the body-compostion, mass, and strength gained during a cycle. IMO it really shouldnt prolong recovery that drastically... I would maybe even count it in my time off. An example micro-stasis could look like (for a relatively mild cycle oulined below):
week 1-5 or 6
h-drol 50-100mg's/day depending on needs
or epi 30-50mg's/day depening on needs
followed by a micro-stasis taper (now I am just writing down my thoughts at the moment and I have not thought about this for a little while) consisting of a 3-5 week stasis period of 100mg's per day of Androsterone possibly followed by a couple week taper down. Now the time of day would depend on training time, but I would personally take about 30-60mins pre-wo. Or in the morning on non-training days. I may be completely off with this because I havent though about Androsterone in a long time, but I dont see why something like this couldnt be employed.
week 1-5 or 6
h-drol 50-100mg's/day depending on needs
or epi 30-50mg's/day depening on needs
followed by a micro-stasis taper (now I am just writing down my thoughts at the moment and I have not thought about this for a little while) consisting of a 3-5 week stasis period of 100mg's per day of Androsterone possibly followed by a couple week taper down. Now the time of day would depend on training time, but I would personally take about 30-60mins pre-wo. Or in the morning on non-training days. I may be completely off with this because I havent though about Androsterone in a long time, but I dont see why something like this couldnt be employed.
DR.D
Well-known member
Good to be back! Permanent return, but I'm working on a lot of stuff so might not be back full force until I get some of these products out.
With orals, you won't continue to encourage suppression since you're necessarily doing a lower dose once the taper starts, but on the same token you won't be promoting recovery either. You will be staging a smooth recovery though, which is a fair trade off for holding the gains you made. What the taper does do is allow ARs to begin downregulating while SHBG and TBG start to normalizing again. Liver enzymes that reduce cortisol metabolism are also lowering at this time, which is offset with tapering so you aren't a sitting duck for catabolism, which is exactly what you get if you quit cold turkey. With injections, esters taper themselves well enough, unless they are fast acting forms and then a taper still could be useful.
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holyintellect
Well-known member
First and foremost, thanks for debating like an adult....I hate to say it, but its not to often on an internet forum you can have a constructive chat....
I understand your position, but I cant honestly say Im sold. As I said in my original post, I do think that there are situaions where it may be beneficial, and sure enough, you pointed out the smoking cessation situation....Orals are another animal completely, but the same concept applies in that at some dose the user will experience suppression. If the doses used at the end of the taper are equal to or above that magic #, then obviously suppression will continue. If you could pinpoint the mg amount that was just UNDER the amount required to suppress, and you could start tapering down from there, then yeah, I think that very well may be feasable. Obviously it would have to be a very loose number as the biggest variable is the individual...
holy
DR.D
Well-known member
In my experience, this board is better than many. The fellas here are mostly sincere and ready to share knowledge without attitude.
DR.D
Well-known member
Hey Hulk! Yes, you can do that, but it's probably better to ramp down off of test esters using orals to taper the last 2-3wks, then load the SERM and start an inverse ramp with an appropriate AI. After recovery has the momentum (libido return, test levels up, transaminase down, etc..) then you can take some chances with a low dose early morning oral if you like, but pulsing on w/o days is far more strategic and conservative with less risk to recovery. Of course, it really all depends on the individual and the idiosyncrasies of their endocrine system. Some guys can take more chances than others during PCT.
xtyler
Well-known member
Thank you for the quick reply sir:clap2:
I was wondering if I could do that after a 6 weeks SD cycle(you're right IME about it:it's not a poison as most claim,it's a clean oral,I've got many bloodworks to prove it and recovery isn't so tragic at all).
This is the original idea for pct:
Clomid Days 1-7 50mg, Days 8-14 25mg
Hyperdrol X2 Days 1-7 1cps,Days 8-14 2cps,Days 15-42 3cps
Indole-3-carbinol Days 1-42 400mg
Epidrol Days 1-42 10mg first thing in the morning
Do you really believe that a tiny amount of a so mild compound taken only in the morning could actually impair recovery to a significant degree?
I was wondering if I could do that after a 6 weeks SD cycle(you're right IME about it:it's not a poison as most claim,it's a clean oral,I've got many bloodworks to prove it and recovery isn't so tragic at all).
This is the original idea for pct:
Clomid Days 1-7 50mg, Days 8-14 25mg
Hyperdrol X2 Days 1-7 1cps,Days 8-14 2cps,Days 15-42 3cps
Indole-3-carbinol Days 1-42 400mg
Epidrol Days 1-42 10mg first thing in the morning
Do you really believe that a tiny amount of a so mild compound taken only in the morning could actually impair recovery to a significant degree?
Pemmican
Member
I have been thinking of using Toremifene as my SERM after a 4 week cycle of 1-Andro, 4-AD and DecaVol (Obviously haven't started it quite yet. During and after that cycle, i will be taking Cycle Support. What would be good dosages for the Tore. coming off a cycle like this? I will also be taking Arom-x during PCT
Space
Member
The theory behind tapering off narcotics is to reduce the side effects of withdrawal rather than restore healthy balance of endogenous hormones as is the case with AAS.
Completely different physiological principals aside one might ask the question why you would want to try a new method of PCT when you are relatively inexperienced with AAS?
Completely different physiological principals aside one might ask the question why you would want to try a new method of PCT when you are relatively inexperienced with AAS?
poopypants
Banned
A normal dosing routine should be used... and is widely avilable across the boards sir... search is your friend.
but a dose of 90/60/30/30 (week1/2/3/4)would be more then adequate for those compounds.