Tamoxifen is not necessary for PCT

[Whisky]

After 15 years on this board I expected nothing less. lol

We can't just assume that everyone knows that you shouldn't use steroids before 21 or 23 or even that people know what steroids are safer or more effective for younger people.

With respect this isn’t helped when you start threads about why people over 21 shouldn’t be afraid of prohormones?

That surely only serves to encourage youngsters to start taking them at that age therefore creating the issue you are using to justify this thread (that growth plates haven’t closed).......

Don’t get me wrong, you know way more about all this stuff than probably ever will but doesn’t that seem a bit messed up?

Whether intentional or not, to someone fairly new to all this (I.e me) it comes across like a sales message mate.

 

[EricMM]

No, if you know which prohormones don't aromatize then there is no need to concern oneself with age, in fact using certain prohormones may keep growth plates open (1-DHEA, Epiandrosterone for example).

I like to facilitate discussions and challenge the accepted practice. It's a forum, if I don't have someone calling me names and irresponsible then we aren't having a spirited discussion!

While you may see it as sales, I see it as having a theory backed by facts and then of course often I will design products for myself and others around those theories.

If you look at my article on testosterone boosting...doesn't it make sense that we should have more in a "testosterone booster" than simply LH stimulation?

My next article will be sensitizing the Leydig Cells which Astragulus does quite nicely! I don't sell Astragulus. I don't sell eggs for healthy cholesterol. I don't sell LongJack (which I love) nor Forskolin.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

What? Since when is amoratization got to do with whether or not to do a PH at a young age?? You saying that they won’t suppress your natural test levels?

 

[EricMM]

The theory why under 21 shouldn't take prohormones -

They can convert to estrogen

Estrogen closes growth plates

PROHORMONES = BAD

This is easily solved with prohormones that don't convert to estrogen

PROHORMONES = GOOD

I had a HUGE discussion 10 years ago with people that androgen receptors likely become less sensitive with more stimulation (drugs) and it was a flame war with people putting up studies on HYPERPLASIA when the mature male should be looking at HYPERTROPHY. Making new cells (incredibly long process) vs filling the existing ones (very rapid process and REAL growth).

Most people don't understand the difference. HYPERPLASIA is likely not going to give you gains and yes satellite cells add androgen receptors and increase sensitivity to androgens, but the VAST majority of your muscle cells are NOT immature myocytes, they are mature muscle cells which require HYPERTROPHY.

Years, later, I don't think you can take 2g of testosterone and your androgen cells get more sensitive and you can take 750mg the next cycle. The body wants to remain in a constant state and has safeguards against massive changes or swings.

 

[EricMM]

What? Since when is amoratization got to do with whether or not to do a PH at a young age?? You saying that they won’t suppress your natural test levels?

Aromatization has EVERYTHING to do with it. When 1-DHEA was studied, they didn't worry about suppression in a 30 day cycle. Hell, getting a girlfriend will lower testosterone levels. In most cases only long term massive use of steroids will shut you down to levels where it's an issue. I also suggest Rise and Swell on cycle or another testosterone booster. There is no reason to think that we can't do a cycle of prohormones while keeping our natural levels higher than normal.

 

[EricMM]

I don't see encouraging younger adults to take additional prohormones to balance the estrogen to androgen ratio as a bad thing.

We are bombarded with pesticides and other chemicals.

http://www.ewg.org/research/dirty-dozen-list-endocrine-disruptors#.WecstHVSyV4

These all lower testosterone and many act as estrogens in the body. There is almost no way to avoid it. It's why sperm counts are half of what males had in the 70's.

 

[yates84]

Just.....wow.

 

[EricMM]

Ah, the boards. When the discussion becomes too complicated then it's "wow, just wow" and "you are irresponsible".

I have been in this industry using and studying prohormones since 1997 when Biotest released their Androsol and Nandrosol.

It's a discussion and a learning opportunity. I am stating facts and many of them require an understanding of concepts that the average person doesn't have.

 

[jakz]

This is a serious question as all my others have been. Would you do a cycle of a PH of your choice and then your suggested PCT and report with blood work?

I am once again not just messing with you, but would actually be interested.

 

[EricMM]

This is a serious question as all my others have been. Would you do a cycle of a PH of your choice and then your suggested PCT and report with blood work?

I am once again not just messing with you, but would actually be interested.

I guess I am not following your question. I don't supply free prohormones to people especially not now, but if a manufacturer wants to give you some then we will throw in the R&S for you to test bloodwork! Hi-Tech makes almost every legal prohormone on the market and they are on hold for now, so i doubt there are any freebies to give out! Hopefully in another few weeks they will have this all cleared up and will start shipping prohormones again

 

[jakz]

I was asking that you do it at your own expense

 

[Wobmarvel]

That's a valid point. If your promoting a product you should prove it works. Having said that people would just accuse you of providing false bloodwork if it proved your product was effective as a pct.

 

[coltonwalker]

Aromatization has EVERYTHING to do with it. When 1-DHEA was studied, they didn't worry about suppression in a 30 day cycle. Hell, getting a girlfriend will lower testosterone levels. In most cases only long term massive use of steroids will shut you down to levels where it's an issue. I also suggest Rise and Swell on cycle or another testosterone booster. There is no reason to think that we can't do a cycle of prohormones while keeping our natural levels higher than normal.

Getting a girlfriend may drop test. It may raise it. But pros dont just "drop it" it reduces it greatly. Not to mention other sex hormones.They didn't worry about suppression cause of the falsity they thought it wouldn't mess with tesr/estrogen. Same concept as SARMS right now. Everyone thought it wouldn't touch sex hormones. Boy were they wrong. Not saying your product doesn't work, just stop with the B.S. about growth plates. If you're 28 running pros/any form of Aas you're going to run nolva with no worry of growth plates. I would be more worried about my FSH and LH for the future over some growth plates

 

[uprightrows]

I don't see encouraging younger adults to take additional prohormones to balance the estrogen to androgen ratio as a bad thing.

We are bombarded with pesticides and other chemicals.

http://www.ewg.org/research/dirty-dozen-list-endocrine-disruptors#.WecstHVSyV4

These all lower testosterone and many act as estrogens in the body. There is almost no way to avoid it. It's why sperm counts are half of what males had in the 70's.

Ok, first of all you aren't "balancing" your hormones by adding exogenous prohomones or precursors to 1-test, you are actually shooting yourself in the foot and stopping your body from making endogenous testosterone, and then advising against people using the most effective drug to treat the problem this creates, in hopes they buy some snake oil. You are either misinformed, incredibly and willfully ignorant, or just trying to sell a product (most likely). Young healthy people should have balanced hormones already, and if they don't exogenous hormones aren't going to help at all, unless you have actual hypogonadism and get them from an endocrinologist, not some idiot on the internet.

 

[EricMM]

Have you read any news on the state of hormones in people these days? There Xenoestrogens are in everything. BPA bottles being one of the worst offenders. Men have 50% of the sperm count that they did in the 70's.

It's not necessary to take Tamoxifen after a short 4-8 week cycle of prohormones IMHO. You can disagree and suggest people ALWAYS take it, but I don't touch the stuff and I am fine. Tamoxifen is a drug and not one person has addressed any of the concerns with it's safety and side effects. It's not a "dangerous" drug, but it has side effects and downsides and isn't something people use without knowledge.

People should know that it's not without side effects too and I don't think it is necessary for most men who use steroids or prohormones.

 

[EricMM]

I see people using Dymethazine cycles taking Tamoxifen and Arimidex. It's insane, why would you take an AI with a dry compound? The older members should be teaching younger people that this kind of indiscriminate stacking of everything without any idea what they are taking is just crazy!

Why isn't anyone mentioning that an aromatase inhibitor while taking a dry steroid is not good for you?

 

[bruno.camilo]

Take clomid then. End of thread.

Yey , Clomid 4 ever, 5000ui of D Vitamin and a multivitamin like Animal Pack or some other.

I never PCT always on TRT, so just saying yo mr. Walt

 

[murman89]

...

 

[uprightrows]

Have you read any news on the state of hormones in people these days? There Xenoestrogens are in everything. BPA bottles being one of the worst offenders. Men have 50% of the sperm count that they did in the 70's. .

Yeah and I'm sure taking pro-hormones will help increase those numbers... or just stop your natural testosterone and seminal production. I hate to be the lesser man, but are you actually that retarded or that desperate to sell a product that you would propagate that kind of b*lls*ht? (not that one post, the thread in general) and advise people not to use a serm

 

[EricMM]

haha, no I just have always challenged bro-lore. I've been doing this longer than you and I am used to bro-lore acceptance and "everyone needs a SERM" and all that nonsense. Almost no one does bloodwork to see if they have shut down. Shut down isn't doesn't necessarily happen from prohormones and it's certainly going to recover quickly.

So many people never use PCT and have no idea about it and they seem just fine. PCT was invented to sell products. Nothing wrong with PCT mind you but I don't like to suggest people use poorly dosed research chemicals as their first answer.

 

[EricMM]

Ok, first of all you aren't "balancing" your hormones by adding exogenous prohomones or precursors to 1-test, you are actually shooting yourself in the foot and stopping your body from making endogenous testosterone, and then advising against people using the most effective drug to treat the problem this creates, in hopes they buy some snake oil. You are either misinformed, incredibly and willfully ignorant, or just trying to sell a product (most likely). Young healthy people should have balanced hormones already, and if they don't exogenous hormones aren't going to help at all, unless you have actual hypogonadism and get them from an endocrinologist, not some idiot on the internet.

Is there any real discussion here?

What do you think about testosterone at 1200 ng/dl which is the highest normal human level FAIL at building any muscle mass. Thoughts?

 

[edsd]

haha, no I just have always challenged bro-lore. I've been doing this longer than you and I am used to bro-lore acceptance and "everyone needs a SERM" and all that nonsense. Almost no one does bloodwork to see if they have shut down. Shut down isn't doesn't necessarily happen from prohormones and it's certainly going to recover quickly.

So many people never use PCT and have no idea about it and they seem just fine. PCT was invented to sell products. Nothing wrong with PCT mind you but I don't like to suggest people use poorly dosed research chemicals as their first answer.

saying a PCT was invited to sell products seems to be a little strong... i can only speak for personal experience but coming off a Test/Tren cycle i crashed hard, major libido issues and the only thing that saved me was 4 weeks of nolva. I see posts on this forum almost every day from some guy who cant get a hard on because they stopped a cycle 2 or 3 weeks previous and the only thing that saves them is a PCT and its generally not a natural test booster that does almost nothing.

 

[Nac]

If an individuals homeostasis is a 1200 TT but coming off a cycle he is at 150, he is probably going to experience issues.

And, most guys will feel pretty decent at 1200 TT compared to 150.

The point: a SERM will get you to upper range better than any natty compound. Its not about "building muscle" during PCT, but retaining on-cycle gains (strength and lean tissue), not having dik issues, and recovering HPTA...as quickly as possible.

 

[EricMM]

I love what Dan Gwartney has to say

"The actions of testosterone are dependent upon the individual’s ability to produce the hormone, maintain a relatively steady concentration over time, tissue-specific recognition and stimulation, G-protein coupling, co-activator and co-suppressor activity, response elements within the chromosomes, transcriptional and translational events, and so on."

Why is no one SCREAMING at the guy above who is taking a prescription AI with a steroid that CAN NOT turn into estrogen. Estrogen is vital for vascular health and muscle growth. This person is taking Dymethazine which will absolutely reduce testosterone levels and estrogen levels and then an AI to prevent any adrenal androgens from making estrogen.

You do realize that hormones do exist in the body for a reason...

 

[EricMM]

If an individuals homeostasis is a 1200 TT but coming off a cycle he is at 150, he is probably going to experience issues.

And, most guys will feel pretty decent at 1200 TT compared to 150.

The point: a SERM will get you to upper range better than any natty compound. Its not about "building muscle" during PCT, but retaining on-cycle gains (strength and lean tissue), not having dik issues, and recovering HPTA...as quickly as possible.

I disagree, the 1200 ng/dl was from Novedex XT from Gaspari. I think 6-OXO got close to that high as well.

 

[Nac]

I disagree, the 1200 ng/dl was from Novedex XT from Gaspari. I think 6-OXO got close to that high as well.

Okay, let me clarify.

A SERM has a relatively known MoA. The pharmacology is well studied in various populations/demographics.

Can we say the same for the compounds in the OTC product?

Additionally, a SERM has a high success rate. You generally wont come across "non responders" unless they have a fundamental physiological issue preventing the SERM having the intended effect.

Can we have similiar confidence in the OTC compounds?

No.

 

[yates84]

I see people using Dymethazine cycles taking Tamoxifen and Arimidex. It's insane, why would you take an AI with a dry compound? The older members should be teaching younger people that this kind of indiscriminate stacking of everything without any idea what they are taking is just crazy!

Why isn't anyone mentioning that an aromatase inhibitor while taking a dry steroid is not good for you?

Lol standard recommendation on this board is to have an ai on hand and only use if you have high estrogen sides. You should actually participate on this board and you will see that we aren’t a bunch of idiots and actually know how to cycle properly. That’s probably the reason for so many negative reactions to your recommendations.

 

[EricMM]

I have been on this board since 2000 lol

I participate a lot. Someone explain to our friend up there that an AI will DO NOTHING for a cycle of Dymethazine. In this case I suggest people keep tamoxifen on hand for emergency SHBG run off.

An AI will do absolutely nothing for SHBG estrogen release in response to a strong binder like dymethazine or methasteron. Only a SERM will help or NATURAL SUPPLEMENTS like Indole 3 Carbinol, which is AMAZING NATTY stuff for turning a strong estrogen into a weaker one.

KEY POINT - KEEP A SERM ON HAND FOR THESE KINDS OF CYCLES ALONG WITH I3C.

 

[EricMM]

I think my favorite "are you an idiot" thread from 15 years ago was ANDROGENS UPREGULATE IN RESPONSE TO TESTOSTERONE. Bunches of dudes posted studies on HYPERPLASIA when the VAST majority of muscle growth comes from HYPERTROPHY.

No, Bro's it's very unlikely that the AR upregulates in response to higher doses of testosterone. The AR seems to have a threshold that must be eclipsed for a physiological response to happen.

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/articles/chemical-enhancement/2942-androgen-receptor-sensitivity-all-men-are-not-created-equal-by-dan-gwartney-md.html#.WefcwXVSyV4

Read this and if you understand 1/10th of what he is saying we can talk. The AR is not a one size fits all receptor, it seems to have varied se

 

[uprightrows]

I have been on this board since 2000

Well get the f*k out then and stop posting rubbish about your store. You still shouldn't buy anything from this vendor (mind and muscle) or anything from hi-tech or any of its subsidiaries.

 

[Georgiepecker]

Science wise I imagine Clomid to be the better choice anyways. It is used for HPTA restarts and seems better for 'PCT' purposes in my opinion. Thoughts?

 

[EricMM]

Well get the f*k out then and stop posting rubbish about your store. You still shouldn't buy anything from this vendor (mind and muscle) or anything from hi-tech or any of its subsidiaries.

It's a forum man and just because I don't think tamoxifen is necessary you feel I shouldn't post? There are other ways to recover HPTA than tamoxifen.

 

[EricMM]

So, the standard is to have an AI.

You have Dymethazine which DOES NOT CONVERT TO ESTROGEN.

You have natural shut down of testosterone WHICH DOES CONVERT TO ESTROGEN.

Dymethazine kicks estradiol off of SHBG. What does an AI do?

 

[jakz]

I think my favorite "are you an idiot" thread from 15 years ago was ANDROGENS UPREGULATE IN RESPONSE TO TESTOSTERONE. Bunches of dudes posted studies on HYPERPLASIA when the VAST majority of muscle growth comes from HYPERTROPHY.

No, Bro's it's very unlikely that the AR upregulates in response to higher doses of testosterone. The AR seems to have a threshold that must be eclipsed for a physiological response to happen.

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/articles/chemical-enhancement/2942-androgen-receptor-sensitivity-all-men-are-not-created-equal-by-dan-gwartney-md.html#.WefcwXVSyV4

Read this and if you understand 1/10th of what he is saying we can talk. The AR is not a one size fits all receptor, it seems to have varied se

I will read the full article when I have time,I do agree that everyone reacts differently.

a Friend of mine and I ran our first cycles at the same time. We both used the same source and gear:
Weeks 1-4: Dbol.
Weeks 1-10: Test cyp.

I ran 400mg Test cyp and 20mg Dbol and blew up! I still do and this was 3 years ago. Never had to increase the dosage.

He on the other hand had to ramp up test to 600mg and Dbol to 40mg and I still gained more than him both on and post cycle.

 

[EricMM]

I will read the full article when I have time,I do agree that everyone reacts differently.

a Friend of mine and I ran our first cycles at the same time. We both used the same source and gear:
Weeks 1-4: Dbol.
Weeks 1-10: Test cyp.

I ran 400mg Test cyp and 20mg Dbol and blew up! I still do and this was 3 years ago. Never had to increase the dosage.

He on the other hand had to ramp up test to 600mg and Dbol to 40mg and I still gained more than him both on and post cycle.

Yes, each person reacts differently and that article is basically saying that the AR is a complex organelle which varies greatly between people and also seems to vary with age. Younger people can take less while older guys need more to complete their additional transcription.

I don't think we fully realize the difference nor understand the AR by a very long margin at this point. Not much is studied because it's not a "disease" factor like the ER is in breast cancer.

 

[uprightrows]

It's a forum man and just because I don't think tamoxifen is necessary you feel I shouldn't post? There are other ways to recover HPTA than tamoxifen.

Sorry, well I kind of went off on a rant there, I understand you're trying to run a business and youre entitled to post what ever you want on an open forum. I just think it's a little irresponsible how you titled the thread, and a lot of the information you're putting out is misguided, especially for young people who might not understand the nuances of manipulating your hormones

 

[EricMM]

it's not misguided especially for young people.

Fact: Tamoxifen looks like it lowers IGF-1 levels based on the studies. We don't know all that IGF-1 does but here's what we do know. It builds muscle and it increases height.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00381-013-2124-6

Fact: Tamoxifen has estrogenic effects in ERb and other target tissues that could close growth plates in the penis and bones (height). Shown in studies mentioned above.

Question: Do you know if you have shut down and if you are still in the "normal" range does it make a difference?

Fact: Testosterone levels in the "normal" range don't seem to make a difference unless you are going by "feeling". Boosting to 1200 ng/dl did nothing for muscle gain. The body has many many fail safes to lowered androgen levels and will likely upregulate the AR's in response to the change in T. Conversely it probably reduces AR sensitivity when you have high levels.

Thus you only get a major response to "testosterone" when you go well above the "high normal greater than 1200ng/dl" levels with prohormones or steroids and push past the natural defenses.

Estrogen is CRITICAL to the body for blood pressure and other factors.

We see above our friend using Dymethazine and an AI to absolutely DESTROY estrogen. Likely you will see the body upregulate the ER to compensate. Someone like this who is trying to remove every bit of estrogen in his body isn't going to succeed or he would die. Look at the Novedex XT study where a suicide inhibitor caused a massive increase in BOTH TESTOSTERONE AND ESTROGEN. That's not supposed to happen but the body knows how to survive us being stupid.

I am sorry, but I am quite well versed in this subject and I am proposing "NEW" information that challenges bro-lore and no one likes that, I get it. Been doing it since 1997.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

Who cares about TEMPORARY lowered IGF when it comes to a healthy HPTA. supraphysiological amounts of IGF over long periods builds new muscle cells via hyperplasia, once you are fully grown.
Who cares about TEMPORARY closed growth plates when they ARE FULLY GROWN.
Fact: everyone is different, some people with low/normal test levels have a host of problems I.e ED, low libido, depression etc. So by suppressing your natural test and LH to low levels and not even trying to recover to your baseline is idiotic. Even though I believe clomid is a site better than tamoxifen, it’s doesn’t agree with some people.

 

[yates84]

So, the standard is to have an AI.

You have Dymethazine which DOES NOT CONVERT TO ESTROGEN.

You have natural shut down of testosterone WHICH DOES CONVERT TO ESTROGEN.

Dymethazine kicks estradiol off of SHBG. What does an AI do?

Anything that has an affinity for the androgen receptor can cause high estrogen sides, dmz included. Just because a steroid doesn’t aromatize means absolutely nothing.

 

[Admin]

I love when internet dogma is challenged. Its quite entertaining.

 

[Admin]

Who cares about TEMPORARY lowered IGF when it comes to a healthy HPTA. supraphysiological amounts of IGF over long periods builds new muscle cells via hyperplasia, once you are fully grown.
Who cares about TEMPORARY closed growth plates when they ARE FULLY GROWN.
Fact: everyone is different, some people with low/normal test levels have a host of problems I.e ED, low libido, depression etc. So by suppressing your natural test and LH to low levels and not even trying to recover to your baseline is idiotic. Even though I believe clomid is a site better than tamoxifen, it’s doesn’t agree with some people.

Temporary IGF-1 lowering is ok.

Temporary growth issues is ok.

Temporary test suppression equals NOOOOOOO!!!

Just want to make sure I get your point.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

Temporary IGF-1 lowering is ok.

Temporary growth issues is ok.

Temporary test suppression equals NOOOOOOO!!!

Just want to make sure I get your point.

No I didn’t say that.

 

[EricMM]

Anything that has an affinity for the androgen receptor can cause high estrogen sides, dmz included. Just because a steroid doesn’t aromatize means absolutely nothing.

Care to explain that one?

 

[fueledpassion]

So, the standard is to have an AI.

You have Dymethazine which DOES NOT CONVERT TO ESTROGEN.

You have natural shut down of testosterone WHICH DOES CONVERT TO ESTROGEN.

Dymethazine kicks estradiol off of SHBG. What does an AI do?

It was one guy that used an AI with a dry steroid. Just one bad data point.

Let's not be like the Progressive Left and prescribe the "proof by example" methodology. One example does not start a trend nor does it draw the conclusion of being a universal fact across the entire board of members.

If it's that important to make sure no child is left in the dark, then just send him a gentle PM and let em know DMZ does not aromatize and that he is gonna tank his estrogen if he continues.

Anyways,

I think your initial post is a subject that we should dust off and re-evaluate now that we know more about what really causes secondary hypogonadism.

What first timers and early users ought to be doing is supplementing with Taurine, Vit E Tocopherol/Tocophenol complexes & IM ATP. Those three will mitigate much of the oxidative damage of steroid use and make for an easy PCT of Clomid only, with maybe a hint of Proviron or some other SHBG modulator.

This of course assumes one is not malnutritioned in the basic vits and mins required for normal HPTA function.

 

[CatSnake]

pretty much any time I see anyone recommend something like DAA over a SERM for PCT is when I wonder what they have to gain by saying something like that..... in the OP's case it's obvious: money.

DAA reputation for raising testosterone is something like 42%, depending on the study. In several studies, the levels return to normal within 30 days while still taking it.... and it is also notorious for raising prolactin significantly. and in some studies it hasn't been even shown to raise testosterone.

https://examine.com/supplements/d-aspartic-acid/

however, tamoxifen has been shown to nearly double testosterone levels. and clomid has been consistently shown to double testosterone levels, or even higher....

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html

I guess DAA helps your penis grow and growth plates tho??


.

 

[Admin]

pretty much any time I see anyone recommend something like DAA over a SERM for PCT is when I wonder what they have to gain by saying something like that..... in the OP's case it's obvious: money.

DAA reputation for raising testosterone is something like 42%, depending on the study. In several studies, the levels return to normal within 30 days while still taking it.... and it is also notorious for raising prolactin significantly. and in some studies it hasn't been even shown to raise testosterone.

https://examine.com/supplements/d-aspartic-acid/

however, tamoxifen has been shown to nearly double testosterone levels. and clomid has been consistently shown to double testosterone levels, or even higher....

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html

I guess DAA helps your penis grow and growth plates tho??


.

:face palm:

 

[CatSnake]

:face palm:

care to elaborate?

 

[CatSnake]

I got blurred vision from Clomid.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11056123

Hum Reprod. 2000 Nov;15(11):2302-5.
Clomiphene citrate increases insulin-like growth factor binding protein-1 and reduces insulin-like growth factor-I without correcting insulin resistance associated with polycystic ovarian syndrome.

de Leo V1, la Marca A, Morgante G, Ciotta L, Mencaglia L, Cianci A, Petraglia F.
Author information
Abstract
The induction of ovulation by clomiphene could be the result of interaction of the drug at various levels: hypothalamus, pituitary and ovary. It was demonstrated that administration of clomiphene to women with polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) is accompanied by a reduction in plasma concentrations of insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I). IGF-I seems to have an overall negative effect on normal folliculogenesis and ovulation. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the effect of clomiphene on plasma concentrations of IGF-I and IGF binding protein (IGFBP)-1 and on insulin resistance associated with PCOS. Fifteen patients diagnosed with PCOS were recruited. Clinical diagnosis was based on chronic oligomenorrhoea or amenorrhoea and hyperandrogenaemia. Clomiphene citrate was administered at a dose of 100mg/day to all women from day 5 to day 9 of the spontaneous or medroxyprogesterone acetate (MAP)-induced menstrual cycle. Blood sampling and a 2 h oral glucose loading test (75 g) were performed the day before and after the course of clomiphene. Ovulation was confirmed in 13/15 PCOS patients. Plasma concentrations of IGF-I decreased by 31.5% (434 +/- 84 versus 297 +/- 71 ng/ml; P: < 0.05) after 5 days of clomiphene therapy, whereas plasma concentrations of IGFBP-1 increased by approximately 28.1% (26.3 +/- 4 versus 36.6 +/- 7 ng/ml; P: < 0.05). This gave a 56.5% reduction in the IGF-I:IGFBP-1 ratio (21.9 versus 9.53). No significant changes in basal plasma concentrations of fasting insulin or area under the insulin curve were observed in response to oral loading. The present results show that clomiphene does not cause changes in insulin resistance associated with PCOS but reduces plasma concentrations of IGF-I and increases those of IGFBP-1, with a consequent marked reduction in the IGF-I:IGFBP-1 ratio.

^I'm not saying the study isn't applicable, but women with PCOS taking 100 mg/day of clomid are not exactly healthy guys going into PCT.

 

[Admin]

care to elaborate?

Sure. I'm amazed at the amount of people with such close minds.

 

[CatSnake]

Sure. I'm amazed at the amount of people with such close minds.

well, there are TONS of threads here where guys get prolactin induced gyno from DAA.

and, I posted some human data which showed my perspective on the topic.... I guess I don't consider that close minded. More like I'm concerned about the health of other board members.... if people don't believe me, it's easy enough to look at the data and disprove me.