Tamoxifen is not necessary for PCT

Eric Mar

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You don't necessarily need Tamoxifen after steroids, and I certainly don't suggest it for the DHEA based or progestin based prohormones!

Here we go, I am going to get flamed, but I have been on the anti-tamoxifen band wagon for 15 years now. It does have it's place for severe gyno suffers, but for PCT I don't think you need Tamoxifen at all and it could be bad for you.

The main reason is that it reduced IGF-1 levels. 15 years ago when I rallied against it, IGF-1 wasn't the hot product it is now, but we did know it increased muscle growth.

Second, it can have estrogen effects. Many guys think the "more is better" approach is the way to go and dose it 60mg and higher. Unlike the experts on this forum medicine doesn't fully understand all the effects of tamoxifen.

This study shows that Tamoxifen can have ESTROGENIC effects in other tissues, which I have been saying for years. The very thing you want to stop closing your growth plates may be the problem. That means you could stop growing prematurely in both your penis and bones! MORE IS NOT BETTER. Tamoxifen is a partial agonist for estrogen at higher levels and could be acting like an estrogen in other tissues! See the studies at the bottom!

I suggest you take something natural to boost your androgen levels. Maybe read my article and learn why a FULL approach to PCT could just get you better results than Tamoxifen!

Stop The Beating

J Bone Miner Res. 2008 Aug;23(8):1267-77. doi: 10.1359/jbmr.080319.
Tamoxifen impairs both longitudinal and cortical bone growth in young male rats.

Karimian E1, Chagin AS, Gjerde J, Heino T, Lien EA, Ohlsson C, Sävendahl L.
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Tamoxifen (Tam) has been used experimentally to treat boys with gynecomastia and girls with McCune-Albright syndrome. This drug was recently shown to inhibit the growth of cultured fetal rat metatarsal bones and thus might also affect bone growth in vivo. Four-week-old Sprague-Dawley rats were gavaged daily with vehicle alone (peanut oil), Tam (40 mg/kg/d; 1 or 4 wk), or estradiol (40 microg/kg/d; 4 wk). Five of the 10 rats in each group were killed after 4 wk and the other five after 14 wk of recovery. Bone growth was followed by repeat DXA scans, whereas other bone parameters and spine length were evaluated by pQCT and X-ray at the time of death. Four-week Tam treatment significantly decreased body weight, nose-anus distance, spinal and tibial bone lengths, trabecular BMD, cortical periosteal circumference, and bone strength and also reduced serum IGF-I levels (424 +/- 54 versus 606 +/- 53 ng/ml in control; p < 0.05). Analysis of the tibial growth plate of treated rats showed elevated chondrocyte proliferation (BrdU) and apoptosis (TUNEL), as well as decreases in the number of hypertrophic chondrocytes and in the size of terminal hypertrophic chondrocytes. Despite a complete catch-up of body weight after 14 wk of recovery, the tibia was still shorter (p < 0.001) and its cortical region was smaller. We conclude that, when administered at a clinically relevant dose, Tam causes persistent retardation of longitudinal and cortical radial bone growth in young male rats. Our findings suggest that this inhibition results from local effects on the growth plate cartilage and systemic suppression of IGF-I production. Based on these rat data, we believe that Tam, if given to growing individuals, might compromise cortical bone growth, bone strength, and adult height.
 

Eric Mar

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Bone. 2007 May;40(5):1415-24. Epub 2007 Jan 9.
Tamoxifen induces permanent growth arrest through selective induction of apoptosis in growth plate chondrocytes in cultured rat metatarsal bones.

Chagin AS1, Karimian E, Zaman F, Takigawa M, Chrysis D, Sävendahl L.
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Estrogen affects skeletal growth and promotes growth plate fusion in humans. High doses of estrogen have been used to limit growth in girls with predicted extreme tall stature; a treatment which has been associated with severe side effects. Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) could potentially be used as an alternative treatment. We chose to study the effects of Tamoxifen (Tam), a first generation SERM that has been used in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia or McCune-Albright syndrome. Cultured fetal rat metatarsal bones were used to study the effects of Tam on longitudinal bone growth. In sectioned bones, chondrocyte apoptosis and proliferation were analyzed by TUNEL assay and BrdU incorporation, respectively. We also used a human chondrocytic cell line, HSC-2/8, to study the effects of Tam on apoptosis (FACS analysis and Cell Death detection ELISA) and caspase activation (caspase substrate cleavage and Western immunoblotting). Tam caused a dose-dependent growth retardation of cultured metatarsal bones. No catch-up growth was observed after Tam was removed from the culture medium. Detailed analysis of sectioned growth plate cartilage revealed increased apoptosis of chondrocytes within the resting and hypertrophic zones. HCS-2/8 cells also underwent apoptosis upon Tam treatment. Tam-induced apoptosis was caspase-dependent and completely abrogated by either caspase-8 or -9 inhibitors. A substrate assay revealed that caspase-8 is first activated followed by caspase-9 and -3. Finally, FasL secretion was stimulated by Tam and blocking of either FasL or Fas decreased Tam-induced apoptosis in chondrocytes. We here describe a novel mechanism of tamoxifen-induced apoptosis in chondrocytes, involving the activation of caspases and the FasL/Fas pathway, which diminishes the potential for bone growth.
 
Wobmarvel

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Well I'm currently on my pct from a superdrol cycle and am not using nolva so we'll see how that goes.
 

Eric Mar

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Well I'm currently on my pct from a superdrol cycle and am not using nolva so we'll see how that goes.
Try Rise and Swell, you will love it. Yes, i sell the product, but read my article on the "beating" and tell me you only need an AI or SERM for pct? You need a whole host of factors to really get the testicles cranking! You should not be boosting testosterone without Rise and Swell IMHO!

We will be doing some sample packs shortly and that's amazing because you can FEEL this after one dose and turn your raisins back into grapes in a day!

http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/product/rise-and-swell-by-mind-and-muscle/
 
booneman77

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this does not belong in the supplements section... not even gonna address the fact that this is basically just a product plug
 
rowz4broz

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you have been putting some pretty wild stuff on this board lately
 
Juicedeez utz

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Lol could you please post the blood work showing how it is better at restarting the HPTA than nolva?
 
Godstrength

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Who in the world doses nolva at 60 mg??
 

Eric Mar

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Lots of people take massive amounts of Nolva.

I like to shake things up. Not everything I say is going to pan out to be perfect, but to be honest it's important to have a counter argument to the typical BROLORE that is just thrown around.

These are potent drugs and while I get serious flack for advising a Noob take prohormones, everyone just accepts that Tamoxifen and HCG are safe and without side effects.
 

Eric Mar

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Lol could you please post the blood work showing how it is better at restarting the HPTA than nolva?
I never said it was "better" but there are massive downsides to Tamoxifen that one should be aware of before just ordering off a research chem site.

Tamoxifen doesn't dissolve well, so you typically end up with it clumping at the bottom. This lack of uniformity makes dosing pretty tough among the other things.

I will always question the status quo because that's why we are on a forum.
 
rowz4broz

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Lots of people take massive amounts of Nolva.

I like to shake things up. Not everything I say is going to pan out to be perfect, but to be honest it's important to have a counter argument to the typical BROLORE that is just thrown around.

These are potent drugs and while I get serious flack for advising a Noob take prohormones, everyone just accepts that Tamoxifen and HCG are safe and without side effects.
i dont necessarily think this is true, people are just able to identify that the side effects associated with serms and HCG are not outweighed by the benefits they have in restarting HPTA and for HCG mitigating on-cycle side effects
 

Eric Mar

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We can disagree on that one! Tamoxifen is effective for sure, that's not something we need to debate, but the side effects are pretty harsh all things considered, especially the closing of penis and growth plates.
 
Juicedeez utz

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But most people go with clomid and to be honest my penis hasn’t grown any bigger for a while now. I do agree though liquid research stuff is not where I’d get my SERM or AI, either has to be a very prestigious lab or pharma.
 
Godstrength

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We can disagree on that one! Tamoxifen is effective for sure, that's not something we need to debate, but the side effects are pretty harsh all things considered, especially the closing of penis and growth plates.
Closing of penis lmao
 
Godstrength

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I think it's a little bit strange that you recommend prohormones for young kids that will definitely close the epiphyseal plates but then are worried about them taking nolva doing the same. I'm just curious if you have any research that says nolvadex closes growth plates. Ive never heard that.
 
Wobmarvel

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I'm currently taking a natural test booster by sports asylum. It contains more natural test boosting ingredients than rise and swell. My preworkout contains some of the other ingredients. Not sure why I would need yohimbine hcl during pct. I'm also taking clomid, cardarine and continuing all support supps from when on cycle which includes nac tudca saw palmetto red rice yeast coq10 hawthorn milk thistle above other things and I have aromasin that I dose 10 mg every third day so I have many bases covered with the possible exception of hcg and prolactin. I also have nolva on hand but don't like using it so I agree that it isn't always necessary however I don't agree that I just need a natural test booster with some fat burning properties.
 
Godstrength

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I'm currently taking a natural test booster by sports asylum. It contains more natural test boosting ingredients than rise and swell. My preworkout contains some of the other ingredients. Not sure why I would need yohimbine hcl during pct. I'm also taking clomid, cardarine and continuing all support supps from when on cycle which includes nac tudca saw palmetto red rice yeast coq10 hawthorn milk thistle above other things and I have aromasin that I dose 10 mg every third day so I have many bases covered with the possible exception of hcg and prolactin. I also have nolva on hand but don't like using it so I agree that it isn't always necessary however I don't agree that I just need a natural test booster with some fat burning properties.
Yohimbine and daa is good for the libido my man. I will say I have used rise and swell and it is a good product. It (yohimbine) also raises free testosterone which a lot of people don't know.
 

Eric Mar

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Yohimbine and daa is good for the libido my man. I will say I have used rise and swell and it is a good product. It (yohimbine) also raises free testosterone which a lot of people don't know.
I always wondered about that. I will have to look into it. Didn't know that but I don't know why it would increase libido like that. I'll look into it!
 

Eric Mar

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I'm currently taking a natural test booster by sports asylum. It contains more natural test boosting ingredients than rise and swell. My preworkout contains some of the other ingredients. Not sure why I would need yohimbine hcl during pct. I'm also taking clomid, cardarine and continuing all support supps from when on cycle which includes nac tudca saw palmetto red rice yeast coq10 hawthorn milk thistle above other things and I have aromasin that I dose 10 mg every third day so I have many bases covered with the possible exception of hcg and prolactin. I also have nolva on hand but don't like using it so I agree that it isn't always necessary however I don't agree that I just need a natural test booster with some fat burning properties.
Good lord. Do you even know what you are taking and why? NAC isn't necessary and may reduce gains unless you are taking a liver toxic steroid (you aren't). You are taking liver support supplements without really having a major liver stress supplement.

Well, good luck but try not to "kitchen sink" everything under the sun!
 

Eric Mar

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Physiol Behav. 1985 Oct;35(4):517-21.
Testosterone is not required for the enhancement of sexual motivation by yohimbine.

Clark JT, Smith ER, Davidson JM.
Abstract
Yohimbine HCL (2 mg/kg, 20 min prior to testing) administration was followed by significant decreases in the latencies to initial mount, intromission and ejaculation in castrated male rats bearing 2 mm testosterone-containing Silastic capsules 51 days after castration. Further, yohimbine stimulated copulatory activity in castrated, nonhormone-treated male rats up to 91 days after castration. Finally, yohimbine induced mounting in intact, nonreceptive female rats. These observations indicate that testosterone is not required for the enhancement of sexual motivation by yohimbine and support the suggestion that alpha 2-adrenoceptors are involved in the modulation of sexual arousal.
 
Wobmarvel

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Appreciate the imput. I've always been under the impression that superdrol being double methylated is reasonably harsh on the liver and I've always ran support supps into my pct. I will admit that I do go a bit supplement crazy though.
 
Apsmith4992

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Running a cycle without a serm pretty much leads to one thing and that's losing what you gain. I know this because I did it I used otc products and they aren't strong enough. FWIW I use Clomid anyway but a serm is far superior than any otc product. After using a serm almost a week after my current cycle I haven't lost anything at all and I'm still gaining. Sorry but I'll take a serm any day
 
Wobmarvel

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I've used yohimbine hcl a lot during cuts but it has never effected my sex drive one way or another. I love it as a fat burner though. It's one of the few legal supplements left that you can actually feel working with regards to heart rate and energy output.
 
yates84

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Take clomid then. End of thread.
 
ZachH

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Im with Yates. Looks like clomid is the answer here lol.
 
ZachH

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Appreciate the imput. I've always been under the impression that superdrol being double methylated is reasonably harsh on the liver and I've always ran support supps into my pct. I will admit that I do go a bit supplement crazy though.
You are right in doing that man don't listen to him. Superdrol is one of the most harsh orals and those ingredients you listed are good to cleanse the liver during PCT. its not overkill and you are being smart by protecting your body.
 

Eric Mar

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I got blurred vision from Clomid.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11056123

Hum Reprod. 2000 Nov;15(11):2302-5.
Clomiphene citrate increases insulin-like growth factor binding protein-1 and reduces insulin-like growth factor-I without correcting insulin resistance associated with polycystic ovarian syndrome.

de Leo V1, la Marca A, Morgante G, Ciotta L, Mencaglia L, Cianci A, Petraglia F.
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The induction of ovulation by clomiphene could be the result of interaction of the drug at various levels: hypothalamus, pituitary and ovary. It was demonstrated that administration of clomiphene to women with polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) is accompanied by a reduction in plasma concentrations of insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I). IGF-I seems to have an overall negative effect on normal folliculogenesis and ovulation. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the effect of clomiphene on plasma concentrations of IGF-I and IGF binding protein (IGFBP)-1 and on insulin resistance associated with PCOS. Fifteen patients diagnosed with PCOS were recruited. Clinical diagnosis was based on chronic oligomenorrhoea or amenorrhoea and hyperandrogenaemia. Clomiphene citrate was administered at a dose of 100mg/day to all women from day 5 to day 9 of the spontaneous or medroxyprogesterone acetate (MAP)-induced menstrual cycle. Blood sampling and a 2 h oral glucose loading test (75 g) were performed the day before and after the course of clomiphene. Ovulation was confirmed in 13/15 PCOS patients. Plasma concentrations of IGF-I decreased by 31.5% (434 +/- 84 versus 297 +/- 71 ng/ml; P: < 0.05) after 5 days of clomiphene therapy, whereas plasma concentrations of IGFBP-1 increased by approximately 28.1% (26.3 +/- 4 versus 36.6 +/- 7 ng/ml; P: < 0.05). This gave a 56.5% reduction in the IGF-I:IGFBP-1 ratio (21.9 versus 9.53). No significant changes in basal plasma concentrations of fasting insulin or area under the insulin curve were observed in response to oral loading. The present results show that clomiphene does not cause changes in insulin resistance associated with PCOS but reduces plasma concentrations of IGF-I and increases those of IGFBP-1, with a consequent marked reduction in the IGF-I:IGFBP-1 ratio.
 
Wobmarvel

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Thanks man. I was really just being polite. I would always rather over compensate than skimp on pct. A lot of people forget about half life of orals and presume that once they stop their cycle they can just switch off support supps. Even though they don't continuously pass through the liver they can still effect blood pressure etc. Days into your pct and just because you are not harming your liver anymore does not mean that the liver would not benefit from some continuous support from any damage it may have sustained.
 

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My argument is fairly simple:

1) After a suppressive cycle it will be beneficial to take something to restore healthy HPTA function

2) SERMs are the most effective and efficient wrt (1)

Id say that a SERM is conditionally necessary for PCT.

-----------

Can a SERM have negative or unwanted sides? Sure. So the argument is then about weighing the potential benefits against the potential sides. But again, considering the relatively short dosing period (4-6 weeks) and low-moderate clinically proven doses (25-50mg for clomid), the pros will outweigh cons.
 

Eric Mar

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I am not totally against SERM's simply saying that there is no reason to think you can't survive without them and to know the negatives so you can make an excellent decision.
 

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I am not totally against SERM's simply saying that there is no reason to think you can't survive without them and to know the negatives so you can make an excellent decision.
For sure, and I agree. Buuuut, we could survive without lots of modern conveniences and aides, so the question Id ask of anyone is why would they choose to forgo a SERM?

If its about morals or ethics of off-label drug use, I cant argue against that. If its a safety concern then Im with you, as long as that decision is based on decent information and not ignorance then like all things, the individual takes responsibility either way.
 
Wobmarvel

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Plus you have to take into account that by this point people have already made the decision to run anabolics that in some way or another cause dangerous and unwanted side effects. So as Nac says it comes down to weighing up most effective results versus the dangers. There are hundreds of over the counter PCT products that are all much better on the body generally speaking than SERMs but as everyone seems to agree not as effective.
 

Eric Mar

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Everyone agree's because very few people do bloodwork and just have faith in their SERM. The dangers of bone plate closure and penis closure is a very big deal!
 
Juicedeez utz

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Everyone agree's because very few people do bloodwork and just have faith in their SERM. The dangers of bone plate closure and penis closure is a very big deal!
People who are taking steroids should be fully grown. Plus it’s run for 4-6 weeks.... my mother in law has been on nolva for 3 years due to breast cancer. No problems with her bones to date.
 
jakz

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If you go to a Honda dealership and ask the person selling them which is the better performance car, a Honda or a Porsche, you're leaving with a Honda.

That is all. Hope I don't have to explain that very vague comparison ;)
 
yates84

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I know there are hundreds of studies on serms and that they have been safely used for decades but you guys shouldn't use them....you should take twigs and berrys.....because I quoted a lot of references &#55357;&#56848;&#55357;&#56848;&#55357;&#56848;
 
Wobmarvel

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Remember to taper the berries. You could run the risk of vitamin rebound.
 
Godstrength

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Twigs and berries will restore your twigs and berries... 100 % evidence based brostudy... Trying to find the study now ill post up the link
 
jakz

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Appreciate the imput. I've always been under the impression that superdrol being double methylated is reasonably harsh on the liver and I've always ran support supps into my pct. I will admit that I do go a bit supplement crazy though.
It's extremely harsh on the liver. TBone was a member here for years and I remember him telling me that he ended up in hospital on Sdrol, jaundice etc. This was when you could by SD otc. Tudca/NAC is far from overkill in a SD cycle.
 
jakz

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It's a nice topic and I would love to walk into a supp shop and be able to buy an OTC PCT bro. I do believe they help.

The thing is, as Yates said, there are hundreds of studies on humans using Nolva for years, you on the other hand have quoted and linked studies only done on mice.

I have heard of a lot of people running andro's or SARMs and then taking OTC PCT and recovering, but the thing is, IMO, if I am willing to take the risk of using PH/DS/AAS why would I duck the PCT? If you don't like Tamoxifen then use Clomid.
 
jakz

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People who are taking steroids should be fully grown. Plus it’s run for 4-6 weeks.... my mother in law has been on nolva for 3 years due to breast cancer. No problems with her bones to date.
Also this. If you are taking steroids then you should be a developed adult. If a 16 year old takes AAS/PH/DS the thing that will hurt him least of all is the PCT.
 
Apsmith4992

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Also this. If you are taking steroids then you should be a developed adult. If a 16 year old takes AAS/PH/DS the thing that will hurt him least of all is the PCT.
25 plus at a minimum imo. Maybe even closer to 30
 

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Yohimbine and daa is good for the libido my man. I will say I have used rise and swell and it is a good product. It (yohimbine) also raises free testosterone which a lot of people don't know.
sounds like id want to take Rise and Swell with a serm on PCT for best results? :)
 
yates84

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sounds like id want to take Rise and Swell with a serm on PCT for best results? :)
I've used it and it's a solid product but definitely don't skip that serm, my friend.
 

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Wow... just wow. Talking about the whole thread here, beside being a blatant product plug for "rise and swell" by a vendor, very few of these studies are actually applicable. As mentioned before, if your growth plates haven't closed you have zero business taking prohormones (even the neutered overpriced DHEA stuff in prop blends that the same vendor probably sells) or any form of more effective (slightly less legal?) DS/AAS, all of which would have a much more pronounced effect on bone plate closure than the serms you NEED to properly recover from the stuff. Also the studies cited were predominately on rats or females who were either ovulating/in induced ovulation or had cystic or cancerous situations. Also, yeah no sh*t, a drug meant to treat estrogen responsive cancers in women might also be designed to lower IGF-1 in women, because spoiler alert... you probably don't want high IGF levels if you have f*cking cancer.
But none of this matters if you are a male trying to get your HPTA restarted, Reestablishing your LH and FSH levels so your testes get the instructions to and know to do their job again is far more important in both the long and short term than any transient and temporary drop in IGF (which may not even be present in males depending on serm dosage and duration). No otc product is going to do this, none of them have the both the clinical research, nor the years of proven results that clomifene and tamoxifene have.
 
coltonwalker

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Wow... just wow. Talking about the whole thread here, beside being a blatant product plug for "rise and swell" by a vendor, very few of these studies are actually applicable. As mentioned before, if your growth plates haven't closed you have zero business taking prohormones (even the neutered overpriced DHEA stuff in prop blends that the same vendor probably sells) or any form of more effective (slightly less legal?) DS/AAS, all of which would have a much more pronounced effect on bone plate closure than the serms you NEED to properly recover from the stuff. Also the studies cited were predominately on rats or females who were either ovulating/in induced ovulation or had cystic or cancerous situations. Also, yeah no sh*t, a drug meant to treat estrogen responsive cancers in women might also be designed to lower IGF-1 in women, because spoiler alert... you probably don't want high IGF levels if you have f*cking cancer.
But none of this matters if you are a male trying to get your HPTA restarted, Reestablishing your LH and FSH levels so your testes get the instructions to and know to do their job again is far more important in both the long and short term than any transient and temporary drop in IGF (which may not even be present in males depending on serm dosage and duration). No otc product is going to do this, none of them have the both the clinical research, nor the years of proven results that clomifene and tamoxifene have.
Spot on brother. Lol @ this thread
 

Eric Mar

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After 15 years on this board I expected nothing less. lol

We can't just assume that everyone knows that you shouldn't use steroids before 21 or 23 or even that people know what steroids are safer or more effective for younger people. It's a discussion forum. We shouldn't assume that everyone knows how to properly dose Tamoxifen from a research chemical. I simply said it wasn't necessary.

Additionally, I am not convinced that short term increases or reductions in testosterone make that big of a deal.

We see in studies on AI's like the old Novedex XT and 6-OXO that getting up to 1200 ng/dl had ZERO effect on muscle mass gain. I think the body is pretty efficient at managing the ups and downs of androgen levels.

LH and FSH are simply one pathway to restored HPTA but not the end all be all.
 

Eric Mar

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sounds like id want to take Rise and Swell with a serm on PCT for best results? :)
I would personally take it with an AI. I like steroidal AI's better that are suicide inhibitors.

Competitive inhibitor - just blocks the enzyme

Suicide inhibitor - deactivates the inhibitor

So, what I would suggest is a suicide inhibitor coupled with a testosterone booster like Rise and Swell or something that does more than just pound on the LH/FSH pulse.
 

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