TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE ANABOLIC WINDOW-IS IT REALLY NECESSARY?

[corsaking]

Im always continually reading how important it is to take advantage of the Anabolic Window after training .A period which seems to vary in time from 30 min to 2 hours depending on what you read.Ive been led to believe that this is the time the body readily takes up nutrients more than any other time.However im thinking that taking advantage of this window , just might not be necessary.

If you look at other sports , football, athletics, long jump, shot put .cycling. Taking each one individually , football -once the game is over and its a cup final for example, theres no rushing tothe dressing room for a carb/protein drink.Usually celebration on the field follows along with press interviews and cup or medal presentation
Athletics -the winner trots around the track carrying the countrys flag , waving to the crowd and provides a tv interview, and so on.

Although the sports are different to weights , some are a combination of aerobic and anaerobic exercise but in every case demands are placed on the body which must deplete it of nutrients.

Even at my gym some dont bother with a post wo drink and go into town to the bank etc and their physiques dont seem to suffer as a result.

So is it a myth that a post wo drink is desirable immediately after training and starts the anabolic process?

Would it be better to let the body settle down and "normalise " itself after making the demands that have been placed on it during training before asking it to do anymore work of digesting the drink and incidentally pulling blood away from the muscles to help the intestines with the digestive process?

Any views?

 

[Nitrox]

I think that you are on the right track.

Typical weight training does not burn that many calories (~300/hr). It is very easy to get through a workout without going drastically catabolic if the meals prior have appropriate calories.

Also, the adaptation stimulus from weight training lasts for 24-48 hours. So even if you have not had anything to eat pre-workout, losing one hour or so is not going to torpedo your overall progress.

Personally I think that some of the hype about the PWO window is for encouraging the sale of supplements (i.e. whole foods are too 'slow' for PWO recovery).

 

[corsaking]

I think that you are on the right track.

Typical weight training does not burn that many calories (~300/hr). It is very easy to get through a workout without going drastically catabolic if the meals prior have appropriate calories.

Also, the adaptation stimulus from weight training lasts for 24-48 hours. So even if you have not had anything to eat pre-workout, losing one hour or so is not going to torpedo your overall progress.

Personally I think that some of the hype about the PWO window is for encouraging the sale of supplements (i.e. whole foods are too 'slow' for PWO recovery).

im beginning to think that switching the emphasis to the pre workout meal/drink is more important than the post wo. Also having an intra workout drink consisting of a small amount of carbs and bcaa s and or eaas might be a better option than post wo.

 

[Nitrox]

im beginning to think that switching the emphasis to the pre workout meal/drink is more important than the post wo. Also having an intra workout drink consisting of a small amount of carbs and bcaa s and or eaas might be a better option than post wo.

Here you are falling into the same trap - just favoring the pre-workout period instead. Personally I don't think that there should be any emphasis on any specific meal. You create the growth stimulus in the gym and your body grows outside the gym. This means that every meal is just as important as the other. Miss any one of them and you are losing an opportunity for growth.

Remember that a large meal can take several hours to digest and the body does have some 'battery' capacity (i.e. glycogen stores in the liver).

Just ensure that your daily calories are on target, you are spreading out your meals, and you make some considerations for periods of higher activity and let your body do the rest. For example, around your workout times, reduce the time between meals, make those meals slightly larger, or add another meal altogether.

 

[corsaking]

Here you are falling into the same trap - just favoring the pre-workout period instead. Personally I don't think that there should be any emphasis on any specific meal. You create the growth stimulus in the gym and your body grows outside the gym. This means that every meal is just as important as the other. Miss any one of them and you are losing an opportunity for growth.

Remember that a large meal can take several hours to digest and the body does have some 'battery' capacity (i.e. glycogen stores in the liver).

Just ensure that your daily calories are on target, you are spreading out your meals, and you make some considerations for periods of higher activity and let your body do the rest. For example, around your workout times, reduce the time between meals, make those meals slightly larger, or add another meal altogether.

got it , thanks

 

[crazyfool405]

pre and POST POST are the most important in my opinion.

Protein with some BCAAS right after training or just protein after and BCAAs during. it keeps you lean this way too from my experience,

ive also just tried intermittent fasting.

3 meals and 3 5-6 hour fasts. inbetween and ive been able to eat anything and anything i want and stay lean.

i mean ****in texas style ribs loaded sweet potatoes and a ****ing icecream sunday as a meal. . . or all you can eat sushi. feels good man.

 

[AntonG42O]

its all about a net protein balance = protein synthesis - protein breakdown. during the day you are usually in the positive because the protein thats breaking down is re-synthesising = protein turnover. during the workout there is a huge negative balance because of all the protein breakdown. this needs to be neutralized if you want to gain any muscle. otherwise your body remains in a negative protein balance = catabolism = loss of lean body mass.

also there is a theory that you are more anabolic and shuttling nutrients more efficiently also because the muscles jsut got worked/more bloodflow to muscle/etc

so the window is very crucial because of many physiological processes that go on during and after workout when body struggles to repair the damage. the body releases free radicals as a result of your lifting and you need nutrition to normalize all systems.

here read this in its entirety:

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/protein-01.htm

 

[chocolatemilk]

I've had amazing success drinking chocolate milk post workout.

Milk is highly insulinogenic for that good insulin response, has the carbs for replenishment, the immediate protein for muscle repair, and fats.

I'm also a believer in the anabolic window and this is from my experience.

 

[Nitrox]

i mean ****in texas style ribs loaded sweet potatoes and a ****ing icecream sunday as a meal. . . or all you can eat sushi. feels good man.

I've had amazing success drinking chocolate milk post workout.

Milk is highly insulinogenic for that good insulin response, has the carbs for replenishment, the immediate protein for muscle repair, and fats.

Love how a conceptual discussion always turns into a 'magic' food discussion. Don't forget about drinking the onion juice... :wink1:

 

[chocolatemilk]

Oh I'm sorry... you wanted conceptual... here:

"Based on the limited research, milk appears to be an effective post-resistance exercise beverage that results in favourable acute alterations in protein metabolism. Milk consumption acutely increases muscle protein synthesis, leading to an improved net muscle protein balance. Furthermore, when post-exercise milk consumption is combined with resistance training (12 weeks minimum), greater increases in muscle hypertrophy and lean mass have been observed."

Milk: the new sports drink? A Review
Brian D Roy1

Journal of international society of sports nutrition

 

[Nitrox]

Oh I'm sorry... you wanted conceptual... here:

"Based on the limited research, milk appears to be an effective post-resistance exercise beverage that results in favourable acute alterations in protein metabolism. Milk consumption acutely increases muscle protein synthesis, leading to an improved net muscle protein balance. Furthermore, when post-exercise milk consumption is combined with resistance training (12 weeks minimum), greater increases in muscle hypertrophy and lean mass have been observed."

Milk: the new sports drink? A Review
Brian D Roy1

Journal of international society of sports nutrition

The OP was initiating a discussion about whether the concept of post-workout window is valid or just BB dogma - not what the ultimate PWO drink is.

Look, I don't really have issue if someone goes off topic a bit with some useful info but your claim of having 'amazing' success drinking choc milk PWO reads like a tabloid headline.

By all means correct me if I am wrong but my interpretation is that you are saying that the choc milk vs some other PWO meal was the main source of your success. No other variables changed at all in your comparison: total cals, macros, activity level, superdrol cycle, etc?

I am not disagreeing that there is a place for choc milk in a lifter's diet. The supporting quote that you provided does indicate effectiveness but neither it nor your own claim (based on what you have provided) indicates superiority.

FWIW I am not purposely trying to kick in you in the nads here. I just happen to be feeling particularly objective; feel free to kick back. :nutkick:

 

[Sweekaters]

This board is a lot more intelligent than most other fitness boards I visit. There isn't really and such thing as an 'anabolic window'. The human body would not make sense if it worked that way. Your body is able to adapt the the stresses you place on it whether or not you drink the newest protein drink post workout or not. Here's an article with a lot of good research disposing of the 'anabolic window' myth.
htt p://w ww.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/the_top_10_post_workout_nutrition_myths

 

[chocolatemilk]

The OP was initiating a discussion about whether the concept of post-workout window is valid or just BB dogma - not what the ultimate PWO drink is.

Look, I don't really have issue if someone goes off topic a bit with some useful info but your claim of having 'amazing' success drinking choc milk PWO reads like a tabloid headline.

By all means correct me if I am wrong but my interpretation is that you are saying that the choc milk vs some other PWO meal was the main source of your success. No other variables changed at all in your comparison: total cals, macros, activity level, superdrol cycle, etc?

I am not disagreeing that there is a place for choc milk in a lifter's diet. The supporting quote that you provided does indicate effectiveness but neither it nor your own claim (based on what you have provided) indicates superiority.

FWIW I am not purposely trying to kick in you in the nads here. I just happen to be feeling particularly objective; feel free to kick back. :nutkick:

Well we are not gonna find scientific articles comparing chocolate milk to Gatorade as post workout drinks lol. Wish we could. All we can do is speculate with the scientific data we have.

We're not going to see scientific studies done on nolva vs clomid for a PCT.. but we do find tids and bits of scientific literature about nolva and clomid and assume from these findings they would be useful for PCT.

You are completely right, superiority is a tough thing to claim. But I do believe I gave the OP a bit of credentials when it comes to the overall usage of a post workout drink. Since milk has been shown to be an effective post workout drink... this shows that the general scope "post workout drinks" COULD (if they are legitimate) be very beneficial post workout over no drink post workout.

The anabolic window stays open!!! Now what to fill it with??? I do chocolate milk

 

[corsaking]

This board is a lot more intelligent than most other fitness boards I visit. There isn't really and such thing as an 'anabolic window'. The human body would not make sense if it worked that way. Your body is able to adapt the the stresses you place on it whether or not you drink the newest protein drink post workout or not. Here's an article with a lot of good research disposing of the 'anabolic window' myth.
htt p://w ww.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/the_top_10_post_workout_nutrition_myths

good article with some useful tips

 

[AntonG42O]

ive read taht tnation article but the fact still remains, blood samples taken prior during and post workout clearly displayed a negative protein balance because of the breakdown of protein caused by the workout. the body doesnt just adapt to not get stressed from lifting or not breakdown protein, you wouldnt grow if it just adapted to the stress. negative protein balance = catabolism. plenty of research done. i can dig up the metabolsim journal articles if the one i posted isnt enough.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

Bump.

 

[Sweekaters]

ive read taht tnation article but the fact still remains, blood samples taken prior during and post workout clearly displayed a negative protein balance because of the breakdown of protein caused by the workout. the body doesnt just adapt to not get stressed from lifting or not breakdown protein, you wouldnt grow if it just adapted to the stress. negative protein balance = catabolism. plenty of research done. i can dig up the metabolsim journal articles if the one i posted isnt enough.

Your body adapts to the stress, but you continue to stress is utilizing progressive overload. No progressive overoald = no growth. I think that total protein consumption is far more important than the timing of the consumption, but any articles you could post would be good information for sure.

 

[AntonG42O]

Your body adapts to the stress, but you continue to stress is utilizing progressive overload. No progressive overoald = no growth. I think that total protein consumption is far more important than the timing of the consumption, but any articles you could post would be good information for sure.

i mean yea im sure trying to utilizing this "window" is being a little anal but science does back it up. read the article i posted at the beginning of this thread, i also read its sources and there is a lot of research done on this.

 

[corsaking]

Your body adapts to the stress, but you continue to stress is utilizing progressive overload. No progressive overoald = no growth. I think that total protein consumption is far more important than the timing of the consumption, but any articles you could post would be good information for sure.

mmmmmmm(thinking)- im just not sure about all this at all .I can see where you are all coming from but lets take another example -a male gymnast. These guy have good bodies , muscular and defined -but theyre not huge . If we could attain the look that they have , i think most of us would be happy.I just carnt see them after a training session or competition , saying to the coach " i want to be bigger next year " stronger yes but not bigger.It would make the routine that they do so much harder .Bigger muscles dont necessarily bring greater strength.So i assume they choose to remain at a certain bodyweight just providing enough fuel in whatever form , drinks, food to maintain a status quo.

With the amount of training they do , i would think there is no-one who puts their body more under stress than they do.

 

[Dizmal]

Find something that works for you and stick with it. Don't worry about the rest. KISS.

I work out fairly late at night. I take 2 scoops of protein, mix with water and 2 raw eggs after WO. I'm in bed a hour and a half later. I may have a spoon of natty pb inbetween those times, sometimes I might not. I still make gains and sparing my body the insulin bomb shake thereby promoting the GH release at night keeps me lean in the process. That works for me.

 

[anoopbal]

The window of opportunity is usually the time that protein synthesis stays above basal levels and this is around 48 hours.

It is true that net protein balance remains negative until you start feeding. But it is also true that unless you are training in the morning on an empty stomach, you will have some amino in the blood stream so you will still have a positive protein balance.

Since the highest peak of protein synthesis is usually a few hours after exercise, it makes sense to have some protein after exercise. One study I can think of in long term showed that delaying protein ingestion by 2 hours lowered the lean body mass and fiber area in NON fasted young men compared to immediate consumption.There is some evidence against it too. But looking at all the evidence it seems sensible to take protein right after exercise.

And that T-nation is a bit old. The latest study he refers goes only uptill 2005.

 

[The_Reverend]

Find something that works for you and stick with it. Don't worry about the rest. KISS.

I work out fairly late at night. I take 2 scoops of protein, mix with water and 2 raw eggs after WO. I'm in bed a hour and a half later. I may have a spoon of natty pb inbetween those times, sometimes I might not. I still make gains and sparing my body the insulin bomb shake thereby promoting the GH release at night keeps me lean in the process. That works for me.

I like your method. I may try that the times I am forced to workout late.