Unanswered T3 and muscle catabolism

maximillia

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I have a very simple question for experienced T3 users here. At 50 Mcg T3, what kind of muscle catabolism are we looking at ? I am cutting, and I simply do not want any muscle catabolism at all, aside from whatever is induced from a caloric deficit. So, from this perspective, should I consider T3 at all?

Secondly, is there a way to combat this catabolism without using anabolics? I have read some people thinking stacking Clen can have an anti-catabolic effect, I could stack low dose clen with 50 Mcg T3. Please tell me if you think that will prevent muscle catabolism.

As a last resort, I could use something like ostarine with this stack, will that be enough? We are talking 50 Mcg only. I am hoping not to disturb my HPTA, because I want to run a bulking cycle soon. I have been cutting for sometime. It is my impression that a 4 week cycle would be good, for the T3.

Also, has anybody heard of Cloma Pharma? They sell this fat burner and claim it to have an ECA stack, but I am wondering if it is marketing fluff? I don't know If I can post links here. It's called Methyldrene 25 and I can get it on amazon in my country.
 
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Jeremyk1

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Why are you okay with T3 and clen but not any anabolics? Makes no sense.
 

Mathb33

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I certainly wouldn’t go over 50 if you don’t wanna look as flat as sheet of paper
 

Mathb33

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And I agree with jeremyk lol Clen is one of the most dangerous **** out there
 

maximillia

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Because he is running a cycle to bulk soon, is what I read?
To recomp. I was thinking I could speed up my fatloss now and then be in a very good position to recomp, but then T3 might be catabolic and Clen might not even be safe, So I don't think I will be doing this. I am now leaning towards doing a cutting cycle with T3 and Maybe Clen thrown in. I think that's best.
 

maximillia

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And I agree with jeremyk lol Clen is one of the most dangerous **** out there
Yes. I should probably drop it. But, I was never planning to exceed 40Mcg. I figure if I keep the dosage within that which is useful for therapeutic purposes, the safety profile should be elevated by a small degree.
 

Jeremyk1

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Secondly, is there a way to combat this catabolism without using anabolics?

...

As a last resort, I could use something like ostarine with this stack, will that be enough?
You ask about doing this without anabolics. Then you say ostarine would be a last resort. That certainly sounds like you’re opposed to using anabolics. Did you just now change your mind?
 

Jeremyk1

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Secondly, is there a way to combat this catabolism without using anabolics?

...

As a last resort, I could use something like ostarine with this stack, will that be enough?
You ask about doing this without anabolics. Then you say ostarine would be a last resort. That certainly sounds like you’re opposed to using anabolics. Did you just now change your mind?
 

maximillia

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You ask about doing this without anabolics. Then you say ostarine would be a last resort. That certainly sounds like you’re opposed to using anabolics. Did you just now change your mind?
No, it's like this- I have some time before I start a cycle, the exact nature of which I haven't decided yet but it's going to be either a cutting or a recomp cycle. I was thinking of slimming down further during the time that I have pre-cycle, thus these questions. I don't want to use anabolics to save my HPTA for my planned cycle, the ostarine question is just something I was mulling as something of a compromise.
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

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The entire T3 causes muscle loss is over played, just like "dieting causes muscle loss" is over played.

Here is my stance. Disagreement is fine.

You don't break down muscle for caloric needs to any appreciable degree except in extreme circumstances. You break down muscle for amino acids required for metabolic processes. If you are eating sufficient protein to meet these needs, your body will have no need to burn muscle when you have fat readily available.

To put this in more perspective, if you are breaking down and mobilizing tissue for energy, why not use fat when it is readily available? The only reasom is that you need the amino acods themselves.

Going even further, in a caloric deficit our cells switch from carbohydrate utilization to fat utilization for energy. Fat burning is upregulated and carb burning is more difficult.

So, take this to the extreme and you can see thay utilizing protein for energy needs would likely require you to break it down, strip the nitrogen, convert it to a lipid and then burn it - unless you are using it to meet the small carbohydrate need you still have, which is smaller than normal because you have upregulated fat metabolism.

And again, you would just use your dietary protein before using muscle because using muscle would be less efficient.

T3 with sufficient protein will not burn muscle that much faster. It is over hyped.

What WILL happen is that T3 and dieting will deplete glycogen levels, make you look flat and cause you to have dramatic strength losses really quickly.

I believe that most people start dieting, start T3 or whatever and they drop 30-50 pounds on their deadlift and freak that they must be eating muscle up.

The fact is that if you have sufficient protein and stay the course in these situations the strength will stabilize after glycogen depletes and you may start regaining even during the diet. When you finally get off the diet and replenish the glycogen in your body, strength levels quickly come back.
 

DS3317

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And I agree with jeremyk lol Clen is one of the most dangerous **** out there
How so? Anything is dangerous is used incorrectly, but clen is nowhere near the top of the list.
Perhaps the myth that of necrosis of heart tissue is what you’re referring to.
Honestly I’d choose clen over these otc fat burners that you have no idea what’s actually in them.
 

maximillia

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The entire T3 causes muscle loss is over played, just like "dieting causes muscle loss" is over played.

Here is my stance. Disagreement is fine.

You don't break down muscle for caloric needs to any appreciable degree except in extreme circumstances. You break down muscle for amino acids required for metabolic processes. If you are eating sufficient protein to meet these needs, your body will have no need to burn muscle when you have fat readily available.

To put this in more perspective, if you are breaking down and mobilizing tissue for energy, why not use fat when it is readily available? The only reasom is that you need the amino acods themselves.

Going even further, in a caloric deficit our cells switch from carbohydrate utilization to fat utilization for energy. Fat burning is upregulated and carb burning is more difficult.

So, take this to the extreme and you can see thay utilizing protein for energy needs would likely require you to break it down, strip the nitrogen, convert it to a lipid and then burn it - unless you are using it to meet the small carbohydrate need you still have, which is smaller than normal because you have upregulated fat metabolism.

And again, you would just use your dietary protein before using muscle because using muscle would be less efficient.

T3 with sufficient protein will not burn muscle that much faster. It is over hyped.

What WILL happen is that T3 and dieting will deplete glycogen levels, make you look flat and cause you to have dramatic strength losses really quickly.

I believe that most people start dieting, start T3 or whatever and they drop 30-50 pounds on their deadlift and freak that they must be eating muscle up.

The fact is that if you have sufficient protein and stay the course in these situations the strength will stabilize after glycogen depletes and you may start regaining even during the diet. When you finally get off the diet and replenish the glycogen in your body, strength levels quickly come back.
Makes sense. I am leaning towards this being true and also planning a small run to test it for myself. I am supposedly glycogen depleted already on keto, so maybe that aspect of T3 will hit me less?
 

maximillia

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How so? Anything is dangerous is used incorrectly, but clen is nowhere near the top of the list.
Perhaps the myth that of necrosis of heart tissue is what you’re referring to.
Honestly I’d choose clen over these otc fat burners that you have no idea what’s actually in them.
That's interesting. What do you consider safe dosages and length of clen usage to be?
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

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How so? Anything is dangerous is used incorrectly, but clen is nowhere near the top of the list.
Perhaps the myth that of necrosis of heart tissue is what you’re referring to.
Honestly I’d choose clen over these otc fat burners that you have no idea what’s actually in them.
Can you show that it is a myth? Or is that just some bro saying "don't worry, you'll be fine" on the interwebs?

I am sincerely curious, because I've seen some studies showing that it might not be a myth and the logic behind the reasoning is pretty sound; so I'd want to be certain if I decided to use it.
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

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Makes sense. I am leaning towards this being true and also planning a small run to test it for myself. I am supposedly glycogen depleted already on keto, so maybe that aspect of T3 will hit me less?
I would love to hear your feedback! It may be that you will have less of a fall off, although I still wouldn't be shocked if you saw some fall off in the first couple weeks. It would be interesting to see IRL what the outcome is. It may be evidence to prove my theories incomplete or just outright wrong...or we could be right!
 

DS3317

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Can you show that it is a myth? Or is that just some bro saying "don't worry, you'll be fine" on the interwebs?

I am sincerely curious, because I've seen some studies showing that it might not be a myth and the logic behind the reasoning is pretty sound; so I'd want to be certain if I decided to use it.
It was a study that showed in rats but there’s been any evidence in humans. If you have a healthy heart and you don’t run crazy doses you should be fine. I just don’t like the anxiety it gives me.
 

DS3317

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That's interesting. What do you consider safe dosages and length of clen usage to be?
Start at 20mcg go up 10mcg every other day for 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. I wouldn’t go over 140 mcg. If you’re comfortable do that for a total of 10-12 weeks. Make sure you supplement correctly or you’ll cramp like crazy and get muscle spasms.
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

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It was a study that showed in rats but there’s been any evidence in humans. If you have a healthy heart and you don’t run crazy doses you should be fine. I just don’t like the anxiety it gives me.
That isn't how it works. Lack of human studies doesn't prove safety - or anything. It is an unknown.

The fact that in animal models it causes damage is a red flag. We have no evidence it won't do it in humans.

I am sorry if this is coming of as aggressive, but I have to correct this.

To be giving advice to other people saying, "if you have a healthy heart and you don't run crazy doses, you should be fine" is just poor information.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it will or will not cause heart damage. I don't know. We lack the information. Anyone who chooses to use clen has to asses that riak properly for themselves and in an honest fashion. Burying heads in sand and pretending we know "you should be fine" is foolish.

The fact is, deep down, even you have doubts - because you have to qualify - healthy heart and not crazy doses.

What about people who don't know they have a heart problem?

What is a "crazy" dose? Sonce we lack the human studies, where are you getting this information as to what is a crazy dose?

What if someone is healthy - what is the LD50? What is a crazy dose?

I am not trying to attack you, but if you are going to claim a drug with studies showing dangers is safe bwcause those studies were in rats, at least have some evidence beyond just discounting the limited available evidence just because it isn't as good as it could be.
 

DS3317

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That isn't how it works. Lack of human studies doesn't prove safety - or anything. It is an unknown.

The fact that in animal models it causes damage is a red flag. We have no evidence it won't do it in humans.

I am sorry if this is coming of as aggressive, but I have to correct this.

To be giving advice to other people saying, "if you have a healthy heart and you don't run crazy doses, you should be fine" is just poor information.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it will or will not cause heart damage. I don't know. We lack the information. Anyone who chooses to use clen has to asses that riak properly for themselves and in an honest fashion. Burying heads in sand and pretending we know "you should be fine" is foolish.

The fact is, deep down, even you have doubts - because you have to qualify - healthy heart and not crazy doses.

What about people who don't know they have a heart problem?

What is a "crazy" dose? Sonce we lack the human studies, where are you getting this information as to what is a crazy dose?

What if someone is healthy - what is the LD50? What is a crazy dose?

I am not trying to attack you, but if you are going to claim a drug with studies showing dangers is safe bwcause those studies were in rats, at least have some evidence beyond just discounting the limited available evidence just because it isn't as good as it could be.
Okay. Where are the bodies from people with healthy hearts?Also read my second post where I posted dose and length recommendations.It has never been shown to cause necrosis in human hearts. Do you understand? I never said its healthy. I don’t think any of these fat burners or preworkouts are, especially when you don’t even know if what’s on the label is actually in them.
Can it be taken safely by person who is healthy? Absolutely.
Rat studies aren’t always applicable to humans.
Id50 was shown to be around 159 mg per kg in rats now I don’t think you’d wanna apply that to a human.
I didn’t bury my head in the sand or assume anything. Anyone who uses any ped should be getting bloods and tests done. This is common sense.
I’m not a parent and I’m not here to hold hands.
It’s not like clen is some new mystery drug that hasn’t been used by humans for years.
Do you need everything laid out? Do you not know how use information and come to a conclusion?
It’s been around since 1967 when it was patented.
It’s used in humans medically in Bulgaria, Russia, and China.
You’re acting like I’m telling him to go load up on dnp.
Clen is a very commonly used drug by people to lose fat and there are very common protocols where it is in fact used safely.
Bodybuilders have been using since atleast 1992.
 
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HIT4ME

HIT4ME

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Okay. Where are the bodies from people with healthy hearts?Also read my second post where I posted dose and length recommendations.It has never been shown to cause necrosis in human hearts. Do you understand? I never said its healthy. I don’t think any of these fat burners or preworkouts are, especially when you don’t even know if what’s on the label is actually in them.
Can it be taken safely by person who is healthy? Absolutely.
Rat studies aren’t always applicable to humans.
Id50 was shown to be around 159 mg per kg in rats now I don’t think you’d wanna apply that to a human.
I didn’t bury my head in the sand or assume anything. Anyone who uses any ped should be getting bloods and tests done. This is common sense.
I’m not a parent and I’m not here to hold hands.
You obviously don't understand.

1. Lack of evidence in humans does not prove safety. Having evidence in an animal that says there is a risk and saying, "Oh well, it isn't in humans, and there are no studies in humans, so there is no evidence it happens in himans so it is safe" is, literally, moronic. You are saying, "lack of evidence" is more convincing than "evidence that could be a little bit better."

2. You say YOU somehow know the doses, and then state the LD50 in rats and then say, "I don't think you would want to apply that to humans." It SEEMS like you believe this helps your case, but it just highlights the flaws in your own argument.

Lets apply your logic to your scenario in #2.

You give an LD50 of 159 mg/kg in rats (sure we can adjust allosterically if you choose) But that is in rats, and rat studies don't carry over to humans - so if you take this dose and you have a healthy heart, you should be fine. There is no evidence that dose will kill a human with a healthy heart, so you should be great. I mean, if that dose would kill a healthy human, where are the bodies?

Oh, but why not just stick with the earlier statements - you ask, where are the bodies which shows just how little you understood the question to begin with.

YOU are the one qualified your original statements with stating healthy heart and not a crazy dose.

Yet, you have no studies stating what a "not crazy" dose in a human is - you HAVE to see the irony here when you are claiming that rat and mice/rat studies don't apply.

So, you are recommending doses and saying people should be fine and calling a potential danger safe(which no one knows about fully because the data does not exist) and then you are saying you are not somebody's parent? Then why are you calling things myths, promising safety, and recommending doses?

The bottom line is, the data we have suggest potential for heart damage, in multiple ways, with clen usage. Is the data conclusive? No. It isn't in humans and it could be better. But there is NO data in humans and thus no reason to believe the mouse studies are right or wrong...but anyone with an IQ above 70 would probably heavily consider the data we DO have that suggests risk over the data we do not have.

The issue is - someone who doesn't know better could do a google search, find this thread and die because they believe something is safer than it is. I am not being a scaremonger here.

Safety is a moving target, sure - but clen is certainly not risk free.

Beyond actual tissue death, there are plenty of other ways it can kill you. I spent literally 30 seconds and this was easy enough to find.


And since you are recommending doses, how about this (didn't you say 20 micrograms was "safe"? Was that you? I need you to lay it out for me.)


How about another bodybuilder using 3 drugs for just 10 days:


Shpuld we just assume his damage wasn't from the clen because...there are no human studies!?

And if you want bodies, look at the number of heart attacks in young bodybuilders. Could it be a hundred different drugs? Sure. But clen isn't an impossible cause either.
 
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HIT4ME

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Okay. Where are the bodies from people with healthy hearts?Also read my second post where I posted dose and length recommendations.It has never been shown to cause necrosis in human hearts. Do you understand? I never said its healthy. I don’t think any of these fat burners or preworkouts are, especially when you don’t even know if what’s on the label is actually in them.
Can it be taken safely by person who is healthy? Absolutely.
Rat studies aren’t always applicable to humans.
Id50 was shown to be around 159 mg per kg in rats now I don’t think you’d wanna apply that to a human.
I didn’t bury my head in the sand or assume anything. Anyone who uses any ped should be getting bloods and tests done. This is common sense.
I’m not a parent and I’m not here to hold hands.
It’s not like clen is some new mystery drug that hasn’t been used by humans for years.
Do you need everything laid out? Do you not know how use information and come to a conclusion?
It’s been around since 1967 when it was patented.
It’s used in humans medically in Bulgaria, Russia, and China.
You’re acting like I’m telling him to go load up on dnp.
Clen is a very commonly used drug by people to lose fat and there are very common protocols where it is in fact used safely.
Bodybuilders have been using since atleast 1992.
Ahh, you edited since I first read the post.

You HAVE to see the foolishness in your argument of choosing a population subset with dramatically increased premature death rates from drug use as your BEST defense of saying something is safe or not.

If, as you say, it has been used "medically" in all these countries...where is the human data? Just because Russian athletes used it doesn't make it a medicinal drug in russia. Or any other country. Just like American athletes using it doesn't mean it has been used here.

It is foolish that you discount a rat study, make all these claims, and haven't provided a shred of evidence to back up a thing you have said. Sorry, but you are burying your head in the sand.

I am well aware of clen's usage history. You should NOT be giving advice on drug usage at this point. Like you said, don't hold anyone's hand.
 
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HIT4ME

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jrock645

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Interested in why T4 isn’t used more being that it’s apparently superior to T3, at least from what I’ve heard.
 

maximillia

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I would love to hear your feedback! It may be that you will have less of a fall off, although I still wouldn't be shocked if you saw some fall off in the first couple weeks. It would be interesting to see IRL what the outcome is. It may be evidence to prove my theories incomplete or just outright wrong...or we could be right!
Starting next month, I will log a low dose T3 cycle to assess it's effects on me, specifically with relation to muscle catabolism. It will be well articulated, with bloods too. I was thinking of adding low dose Clen as well, but that remains very tentative. I will read a few more research papers and make up my mind. Most probably, I will not be running it.
 

maximillia

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Interested in why T4 isn’t used more being that it’s apparently superior to T3, at least from what I’ve heard.
I think that's because T4 must be converted by the body, whereas T3 features direct action. At least that has something to do with it.
 

maximillia

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While we are talking about fat burners, I think it's an absolute shame that DNP has been relegated to history pretty much. I have a feeling that if Pharmaceutical companies took some interest in it, they could probably fix many of it's glaring faults, and make it a viable product. That would be the holy grail of all fat burners. Feels like a wasted opportunity.
 

maximillia

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Start at 20mcg go up 10mcg every other day for 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. I wouldn’t go over 140 mcg. If you’re comfortable do that for a total of 10-12 weeks. Make sure you supplement correctly or you’ll cramp like crazy and get muscle spasms.
If I ever try it, I would stay under 40 Mcg at all costs. 20-40 Mcg is the therapeutic range apparently, so that's some consolation for a nervous user. Greg Doucette, an IFBB Pro, recommends simply tapering the dosages up instead of the 2 weeks on 2 weeks off protocol. He figures the increased dosage will keep the drug effective. What do you think about that?
 

DS3317

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If I ever try it, I would stay under 40 Mcg at all costs. 20-40 Mcg is the therapeutic range apparently, so that's some consolation for a nervous user. Greg Doucette, an IFBB Pro, recommends simply tapering the dosages up instead of the 2 weeks on 2 weeks off protocol. He figures the increased dosage will keep the drug effective. What do you think about that?
I like Greg a lot but haven’t watched the video. He is a very good coach so I don’t think you could wrong listening to him.
Try it and see how it works for you. I’d like to follow the log if you started one.
The one thing I’d say is pay close attention to how you feel and if you notice anything you don’t like or that feels off I’d stop immediately.
Also look into proper supplementation for Clenbuterol.
 

DS3317

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Also make sure it’s reliable source that doses correctly. Anything to do with mcg is easy for a source to overdose.
 

Dutch guy in asia

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I used t3 actually got a few bottles still here. Not going to use it again it messes too much with my sleep. I am sensitive about my sleep. Actually have a lot of insomnia right now that I am combating. Just came of 50 mcg of t3 last Thursday.

Its not just the t3 but other factors too but after having stopped the t3 sleep improved (somewhat still not perfect).

I cant say I was afraid to lose muscle as I am on TRT and take a good amount of protein and lift heavy. I don't see it as a magic substance (neither is clen). It all comes down to diet and cardio then this can add some extra burn for sure. From now on i prefer to not use T3 or clen. I would rather use clen if I had too (with lots of taurine and magnesium / calcium ect). But only because it affects my sleep less.

But for now diet is going well so not going to use it anymore and just add cardio (hate it but its effective) and so is HIIT. If i were to add either clen or t3 it would go even faster but slow is good for me now. Lean enough now that I don't mind the last part taking 2 more months or so (2-4) kg more to lose to get really lean. Already more lean then ever before.
 
HIT4ME

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Interesting log. I subscribed.

Others can find theblog here:

 

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