Straight talk concerning 1 Andro

ToxAF

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Looking into this to stack as a bulking agent with 4 Andro (Iconic Formulations most like)...my thought is that if Im gonna tank my lipids that bad I may as well go with something like DMZ or Epistane and swing for the fences. Thoughts?
 
Afi140

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They both have their pros and cons. I’m a big fan of andros but also like my methylated compounds as well. They’re easier on the liver and the gains tend to be more keepable imo. I will say that epistane is one of my favorite methylated compounds.

@Vitruvian Man just ran an andro cycle and really enjoyed it. Here is his thread and maybe he can chime in.

Becoming Mandro the Giant (1 & 4 Andro Stack)
https://anabolicminds.com/community/index.php?threads/Becoming-Mandro-the-Giant-(1-&-4-Andro-Stack).318514/
 
Afi140

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Here is part of his review just posted 3 hours ago He gained strength and almost 8lbs in just 4 weeks

IMG_5206.JPG
 

ToxAF

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Hey thank you for chiming in! Sounds like a fun run, figure it will depend on whats most readily available when the time comes, getting my PCT supplies together before I screw with anything else.

For that matter, have you found OTC PCT sufficient for andros? Think Ill still err on the side of caution regardless, plus having the stuff around for harsher runs is a priority. Thanks again for the responses, checking out that log now.
 
StarScream66

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If you're concerned about your lipids, cholesterol and overall heart health, you will want to get a full panel blood test before and after the cycle to compare the two.

You can buy these on https://health-tests-direct.com
 
xR1pp3Rx

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as an adjunct to either type of cycle i would recommend APEX Helios. lots of good effects and one being positive on cholesterol from both a total cholesterol stand point, to the blocking of oxidation of LDL.
literally a must have~

its on sale now BOGO!


 

ToxAF

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as an adjunct to either type of cycle i would recommend APEX Helios. lots of good effects and one being positive on cholesterol from both a total cholesterol stand point, to the blocking of oxidation of LDL.
literally a must have~

its on sale now BOGO!


Thanks a lot! Ive actually been on your site several times the past week or so, I'll be placing an order for sure as soon as I get some other things lined up.
 
thebigt

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Looking into this to stack as a bulking agent with 4 Andro (Iconic Formulations most like)...my thought is that if Im gonna tank my lipids that bad I may as well go with something like DMZ or Epistane and swing for the fences. Thoughts?
iconic formulations alpha four [4-andro] also includes androsterone which a study has shown actually improves lipids---good stuff-eh?
 
Rad83

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... my PCT supplies together before I screw with anything else.


For that matter, have you found OTC PCT sufficient for andros? Think Ill still err on the side of caution regardless, plus having the stuff around for harsher runs is a priority. Thanks again for the responses, checking out that log now.
--Smart move! Get everything beforehand

-No....Not worth the risk of your hpta, staying suppressed any longer than needed.
A serm will give you the best chance of keeping some strength/size...If you keep up training intensity + nutrition and sleep.

Is this your first cycle? I suggest 1 andro at 330mg, minimum....See how you respond to that and then consider a methyl later on down the road.
 

ToxAF

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--Smart move! Get everything beforehand

-No....Not worth the risk of your hpta, staying suppressed any longer than needed.
A serm will give you the best chance of keeping some strength/size...If you keep up training intensity + nutrition and sleep.

Is this your first cycle? I suggest 1 andro at 330mg, minimum....See how you respond to that and then consider a methyl later on down the road.
Absolutely! Ran two cycles of Epistane and a transdermal formestane in the early 2000s, did a full PCT and kept most of my gains. Was also 24 at the time, so thereve been some changes haha. Been training again for about 5 years-ish, so seeing whats what. Would like to take things to the next level.
 

jim2509

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I actually looked into this a bit and the study I found which appears comprehensive showed that the 1-dhea was infact quite possibly worse than some of the original DS/PH's pre 2004 when it came to lipids etc. I'll dig it up and post the link if anyone is interested. Obviously i cant vouch as to whether it was biased or whatever but it seems odd the US would not ban it if it was seriously that bad.

Also look into using Cel Cycle Support.
 
Jinsun

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I couldn't read from those pics, but was the article maybe about 1ad not dhea?

Anyway, I'm always surprised by people who cycle, a bit now and then, being so concerned about lipids ... Lipids will go to chit with more or less anything you take - but will always bounce back quickly after cessation of aas. Some aas crash lipids more some less but they all have an impact. It's how androgens act, they directly upregulate and downregulate some processes regarding LDL and HDL; lowering one's production and upping the other.

So if Lipids are such a big concern - don't do aas. Period.

With two 6 to 8 week oral cycles a year, this is however a totally moot point - unless somebody would have some other underlying heart conditions or something.

What's a more important debate, one that actually matters; what bang for your "buck", so to speak, you are getting for the price of being suppressed and going through pct and everything. And another one; who you are actually buying from and do they send gear regularly for lab analasys and is their gear independently third party tested. Also, does the manufacturer provide info in what kind of lab's they are producing their gear, how's the sterility, etc. etc.

Lipids, really, who gives a fuack : )

Regarding andro's, they are not the best bang for buck. They are to dependent on the enzyme conversion process which really differs from person to person and it's not guaranteed you'll get enough of the active ingredient to actually make it worthwhile.

So, this is some straight talk about andro's. Expensive and hit or miss. My recommendation; get something that doesn't require conversion.

Good luck with your cycle!
 
thebigt

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I couldn't read from those pics, but was the article maybe about 1ad not dhea?

Anyway, I'm always surprised by people who cycle, a bit now and then, being so concerned about lipids ... Lipids will go to chit with more or less anything you take - but will always bounce back quickly after cessation of aas. Some aas crash lipids more some less but they all have an impact. It's how androgens act, they directly upregulate and downregulate some processes regarding LDL and HDL; lowering one's production and upping the other.

So if Lipids are such a big concern - don't do aas. Period.

With two 6 to 8 week oral cycles a year, this is however a totally moot point - unless somebody would have some other underlying heart conditions or something.

What's a more important debate, one that actually matters; what bang for your "buck", so to speak, you are getting for the price of being suppressed and going through pct and everything. And another one; who you are actually buying from and do they send gear regularly for lab analasys and is their gear independently third party tested. Also, does the manufacturer provide info in what kind of lab's they are producing their gear, how's the sterility, etc. etc.

Lipids, really, who gives a fuack : )

Regarding andro's, they are not the best bang for buck. They are to dependent on the enzyme conversion process which really differs from person to person and it's not guaranteed you'll get enough of the active ingredient to actually make it worthwhile.

So, this is some straight talk about andro's. Expensive and hit or miss. My recommendation; get something that doesn't require conversion.

Good luck with your cycle!
the huge advantage of andro's is that they are legal and compliant.
 
StarScream66

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Homie, here is how you share that Google link, I just posted this yesterday. :)


Also, here's a really good article about 1DHEA:


But, I would love to see the study you're trying to link.
 

jim2509

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I couldn't read from those pics, but was the article maybe about 1ad not dhea?

Anyway, I'm always surprised by people who cycle, a bit now and then, being so concerned about lipids ... Lipids will go to chit with more or less anything you take - but will always bounce back quickly after cessation of aas. Some aas crash lipids more some less but they all have an impact. It's how androgens act, they directly upregulate and downregulate some processes regarding LDL and HDL; lowering one's production and upping the other.

So if Lipids are such a big concern - don't do aas. Period.

With two 6 to 8 week oral cycles a year, this is however a totally moot point - unless somebody would have some other underlying heart conditions or something.

What's a more important debate, one that actually matters; what bang for your "buck", so to speak, you are getting for the price of being suppressed and going through pct and everything. And another one; who you are actually buying from and do they send gear regularly for lab analasys and is their gear independently third party tested. Also, does the manufacturer provide info in what kind of lab's they are producing their gear, how's the sterility, etc. etc.

Lipids, really, who gives a fuack : )

Regarding andro's, they are not the best bang for buck. They are to dependent on the enzyme conversion process which really differs from person to person and it's not guaranteed you'll get enough of the active ingredient to actually make it worthwhile.

So, this is some straight talk about andro's. Expensive and hit or miss. My recommendation; get something that doesn't require conversion.

Good luck with your cycle!
It was 1-Androsterone.
 
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StarScream66

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Here, I fixed your link for you.


It's a PDF file, I've also attached.

The title of the study is "Prohormone supplement 3b-hydroxy-5a-androst-1-en-17-one enhances resistance training gains but impairs user health". I had to look up the nomenclature to make sure that is 1-DHEA. I'll look over the study and see what it has to say.

1-ANDROSTERONE
OTHER NAME(S): 1-Androsten-3beta-ol-17-one, 1-Androstène-3bêta-ol-17-one, 1-Androstene-3beta-ol-17-one, 1-Androstène-3bêta-ol-17-one, 1-Androstene-3beta-ol,17-one, 1-Androstène-3bêta-ol,17-one, 1-DHEA, 3-hydroxy-5alpha-androstan-1-en-17-one, 3-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-17-one, 3-hydroxyandrost-1-en-17-one, 3beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-17-one, 3beta-hydroxy-androst-1-ene-17-one.
 

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ToxAF

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I couldn't read from those pics, but was the article maybe about 1ad not dhea?

Anyway, I'm always surprised by people who cycle, a bit now and then, being so concerned about lipids ... Lipids will go to chit with more or less anything you take - but will always bounce back quickly after cessation of aas. Some aas crash lipids more some less but they all have an impact. It's how androgens act, they directly upregulate and downregulate some processes regarding LDL and HDL; lowering one's production and upping the other.

So if Lipids are such a big concern - don't do aas. Period.

With two 6 to 8 week oral cycles a year, this is however a totally moot point - unless somebody would have some other underlying heart conditions or something.

What's a more important debate, one that actually matters; what bang for your "buck", so to speak, you are getting for the price of being suppressed and going through pct and everything. And another one; who you are actually buying from and do they send gear regularly for lab analasys and is their gear independently third party tested. Also, does the manufacturer provide info in what kind of lab's they are producing their gear, how's the sterility, etc. etc.

Lipids, really, who gives a fuack : )

Regarding andro's, they are not the best bang for buck. They are to dependent on the enzyme conversion process which really differs from person to person and it's not guaranteed you'll get enough of the active ingredient to actually make it worthwhile.

So, this is some straight talk about andro's. Expensive and hit or miss. My recommendation; get something that doesn't require conversion.

Good luck with your cycle!
Thank you! And you articulate my point better than I did. 1 dhea(?) doesn't seem worth it to me, if Im going to take the hit Id rather just go with something all around more "robust". From what I always understood lipids would bounce back anyhow, it really is a bang for the buck perspective. Just my shitty opinion haha.

That said, Androsterone seems like an almost perfect mild compound for leaning out and recomping and I really look forward to trying the IF transdermal...a lot! 4 dhea/andro that's available also seems promising and I look forward to trying that out as well. Now I just need to decide if I want to snag up some DMZ or go the extra mile for some Epistane.

Id like to run 2 cycles a year for the next few years. One a little more "hardcore" for wintertime bulking and one on the milder side geared towards leaning out in late spring/early summer. Just in the process of figuring out my sourcing, which is an interesting environment to navigate on some other forums, lol.

As far as cycle support I picked up something called Nektar by Ambrosia Collective that is a drink mix, anyone tried it? Been on it a few days, felt an instant boost in energy and noticeably better circulation.
 
StarScream66

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So, here's the takeaways from this study. I had to take a screenshot, because when I tried to copy and paste it wouldn't do the +/- symbols and other things. But, this does make 1DHEA sound like a pretty detrimental PH, despite the fact it increased lean mass and strength.

 
BCseacow83

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That 1-dhea study compared it to the OG androstenedione. Adione had a high conversion to ESTROGEN, which improves lipids, and a low conversion to 4-diol and then actual test. So yes the effective 1-dhea has more of a negative effect vs the ineffective adione.

Bans have NOTHING to do with safety and everything to do with political grandstanding.

Also saying you might as well take the strongest compound because they all have sides is like saying you might as well take methy-tren and abombs all the time because in the end all drugs have sides lol.
 
Jinsun

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So, here's the takeaways from this study. I had to take a screenshot, because when I tried to copy and paste it wouldn't do the +/- symbols and other things. But, this does make 1DHEA sound like a pretty detrimental PH, despite the fact it increased lean mass and strength.

Good job.

But as far as interpreting those results ... Those are Mild (or at best regular) sides for an oral and not Heavy sides as the article suggests.

The problem with andro's is that they were touted as to be relatively non toxic and with not a lot of sides that methyls come with. This however we now all know is not true.

And let's be clear, they are mild only because you are not getting a lot of the active ingredient! 1dhea, aka DHB, is a heavy DHT and at normal levels (the ones that actually do something in regards of changing your physique) will trash your lipids and shut you down completely. Same goes for 4dhea, aka Testosterone, in regards to shutting down, lipids not so much.
 
StarScream66

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And let's be clear, they are mild only because you are not getting a lot of the active ingredient! 1dhea, aka DHB, is a heavy DHT and at normal levels (the ones that actually do something in regards of changing your physique) will trash your lipids and shut you down completely. Same goes for 4dhea, aka Testosterone, in regards to shutting down, lipids not so much.
DHB is relatively mild in terms of it's androgenic effects. What surprised me was the fact that it's slightly liver toxic, despite the fact that it's non-methylated. It definitely sounds like a TD would be the way to go with these PHs.
 

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DHB is relatively mild in terms of it's androgenic effects. What surprised me was the fact that it's slightly liver toxic, despite the fact that it's non-methylated. It definitely sounds like a TD would be the way to go with these PHs.
Thanks for converting the link. Glad it was of some use for people. I agree about the transdermals. Be great if there were more variety about.
 
StarScream66

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Thanks for converting the link. Glad it was of some use for people. I agree about the transdermals. Be great if there were more variety about.
There's some transdermal andros around. I just don't know who sells them. You could also always just skip the two step conversion and get methyl-1-androstenediol, which is still sold legally.
 

jim2509

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There's some transdermal andros around. I just don't know who sells them. You could also always just skip the two step conversion and get methyl-1-androstenediol, which is still sold legally.
Well I used M1-T back in the day.....was mental stuff. Here in the UK you can get Nano 1-T and M1A. I suspect M1A is would be quite harsh....interesting it's still legal in the US though. Must of slipped through the net?
 
StarScream66

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Well I used M1-T back in the day.....was mental stuff. Here in the UK you can get Nano 1-T and M1A. I suspect M1A is would be quite harsh....interesting it's still legal in the US though. Must of slipped through the net?
By my estimation, M1A should technically be illegal. But, the FDA has their hands full with COVID and probably doesn't have time to police all the bodybuilding supplements for the time being.
 
Jinsun

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I think there are lot's of TD andro supps aren't there? But they still need the enzymatic process. I think the conversion rate over TD is better though as skin in it self has enzymes that convert to the active compound. I am not educated enough when it comes to this topic though but there are some that are. @brofessorx
 
Jinsun

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DHB is relatively mild in terms of it's androgenic effects. What surprised me was the fact that it's slightly liver toxic, despite the fact that it's non-methylated. It definitely sounds like a TD would be the way to go with these PHs.
Yeah, especially as you don't need a lot of it to see results. 400mg is plenty.

What is liver toxic? DHB in oil? I was talking about dhb as in straight dhb not 1andro or 1ad, or any other PH. DHB at meaningful dosages, like 400 mg, will shut you down completely and will crash lipids. The only reason 1andor doesn't do it is bc you are probably not taking enough of it in order to achieve those blood plasma levels.
 
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@nostrum420 is certainly an expert in this area.

And his company puts out a lot of good TD compounds (although they aren't methylated "PHs").

 
delsolrob

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There's some transdermal andros around. I just don't know who sells them. You could also always just skip the two step conversion and get methyl-1-androstenediol, which is still sold legally.
Iconic Formulations makes the following (these gels use the same carrier as Dermacrine):
  • Alpha Four - each application contains 225mg 4-DHEA + 100mg Androsterone
  • Icon One - each application contains 112.5mg 1-DHEA + 94.5mg DHEA + 18mg Pregnenlone
  • Alpha Seven - each application contains 200mg androsterone + 75mg 7-keto
  • Ultra Hard - each application contains 375mg epiandrosteorne + 125mg androsterone
  • Ultra Epi - each application contains 450mg epiandrosterone
you can also still find Alpha Gainz topicals (in salvo)
  • 4-Andro TD V2 - 150mg 4-dhea per 1ml application
  • 1-andro td v2 - 125mg 1-dhea per 1ml application
  • Alpha Andro - 100mg androsterone per 1ml application
 
thebigt

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Hematocrit anything to worry about on an Andro run?
i've ran a ton of andro's in last 6 months....had my annual 2 weeks ago and everything came back good. this is wonderful news since 3 years ago my trt was cut from 200 to 100mg per week due to polycythemia.

since i have history with it for me it is safe to assume i for one don't have any issues with the andro's-but everyone is different.
 
thebigt

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Maybe not but the Red Cross could always use your help and then you can put your mind at ease.
great suggestion-the local red cross said on the local news the other day that donations are down due to covid!!!!
 
brofessorx

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1-testosterone can cause some minor liver stress, it in itself has some decent oral bioavailability.

topically applied pro hormones seemed to be a better option than mega dosing the raw powder orally.
Yes, the skin in certain areas will contain more enzymes that can convert the hormone to the target hormone.
But it’s usually regarded as more ideal with pro hormones as it bypasses first pass as well so less is lost during that initial stage.
 
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ToxAF

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Just wanted to thank everyone who has chimed in so far, Im learning a lot from you guys and appreciate yall taking a minute to help me out here.
 
brofessorx

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Do you know the percentage? I wonder why DHB is legal in the UK but no one is making a TD supplement.
If it’s legal then an injectable version would be the ideal usage. I know there are at least 1 known seller of oral 1-test, that nano-1-T product. I’m sure there are others.
Oral bioavailability will vary person to person, but I’ve never looked into what the estimated percentage is, as there’ve always been better options here in the US. I’m sure the info is out there though.
 
StarScream66

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1-testosterone can cause some minor liver stress, it in itself has some decent oral bioavailability.
From the study I posted above, it seems 1-DHEA does surprisingly cause some liver stress, which is very unusual for an unmetyhlated oral steroid.

topically applied pro hormones seemed to be a better option than mega dosing the raw powder orally.
Yes, the skin in certain areas will contain more enzymes that can convert the hormone to the target hormone.
But it’s usually regarded as more ideal with pro hormones as it bypasses first pass as well so less is lost during that initial stage.
I don't know if 1-DHEA is the same way, but topical 1-test gives you some pretty serious rashes, so you constantly have to keep switching where you rub it into. I remember having to shave my calves because I ran out of places to rub my 1-test TD in that I was using from Avant Labs back in the day.

btw, both 1-test and boldenone are DHB.
I think you made a flub there. Boldenone is EQ. 1-test is the same thing as DHB

[/QUOTE]
If it’s legal then an injectable version would be the ideal usage. I know there are at least 1 known seller of oral 1-test, that nano-1-T product. I’m sure there are others.
Oral bioavailability will vary person to person, but I’ve never looked into what the estimated percentage is, as there’ve always been better options here in the US. I’m sure the info is out there though.
There are injectable 1-tests on the market, and I have seen them esterified as well. But, like the swelling and rashes from the TD, the same thing can happen with the 1-test injections.
 
brofessorx

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I think you made a flub there. Boldenone is EQ. 1-test is the same thing as DHB
Yea, I was thinking dht.
Bold = dehydro testosterone
5a reduced test = dihydro testosterone
 

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I love 1 andro for dry, lean gains and strength but I had bloodwork after my last run and it definitely elevates liver enzymes slightly and is fairly rough on the lipids.
 
StarScream66

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I love 1 andro for dry, lean gains and strength but I had bloodwork after my last run and it definitely elevates liver enzymes slightly and is fairly rough on the lipids.
Did you take it orally and what was your dosage?
 

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