Starting TRT with EM

CatSnake

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So, I just got my HCG and needles today. still waiting on the testosterone and anatrozole, but with all the weather emergencies down south, that's understandable.

I have never been on TRT before, and haven't used anything hormonal for prolly 6 years.

a couple years back, I had a significant injury that kept me out of the gym for about a year, and I ate like crap and drank too much then. gained a ton of fat, and got my T tested, and saw I was lowish. not quite low enough for insurance to cover or a regular doc to treat, but literally only 10-15 points away. there are no TRT clinics near me, and the nearest one charges idiotic prices ($350 for the initial consult, which doesn't even cover medications, all out of pocket, and it's an hour away).

Anyway, so over the course of the past few years, I've used research clomid on several different occasions in order to raise my testosterone.... it did work while on clomid (usually doubled it, from around 250-300 to 600-700), it did not stay up at all while I went off. and to be honest, I really didn't feel much better.... maybe a little bit (general mood and energy), but not like I'd hoped. I've lost a few pounds, but it's been a nightmare trying to get my weight under control.

So, I saw kenpoengineer 's post a while back, and took the plunge as well, so to speak.

Since I don't have some of my supplies yet, I'm going to try to get the full pre-TRT labs done through Discounted Labs in the next couple days for a better baseline, since the post-PCT labs I got don't have some of the things I want to track .

This will kinda be a general log for both EM and my experience with TRT....
 
kenpoengineer

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Smart to get baseline labs. If you can afford it, get your vitamin D, Folate, B12 and iodine checked.
 

CatSnake

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Smart to get baseline labs. If you can afford it, get your vitamin D, Folate, B12 and iodine checked.
I got D checked a while ago.... I didn't even think about those other ones. already ordered my test so I'll have to wait for that...
 
kenpoengineer

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Vitamin D is actually a hormone. What level are you?
 

CatSnake

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Vitamin D is actually a hormone. What level are you?
45.

when I first started trying to raise my T, I got it checked and it was around 25, so I got it up into the healthy range, at least.

I had hoped that would help my T production more, but it hasn't seemed to.
 

CatSnake

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Getting my baseline bloodwork today.

I actually got some more basic bloodwork done about a month ago, and started EA clomid right after as I suspected my T levels were creeping down again.

I was right.... total T was 265 (range 264-916). E2 14 (range 8-35).

Anyway, I believe the rest of my supplies are on my way, and I will start TRT as soon as I get that stuff. I will update what my current bloodwork is as well, just to show what EA's clomid does for a month (16 mg/day).

EDIT: got my pre-cycle bloodwork back, although I apparently checked "female" instead of "male." oh well...

anyway, so a month of EA's research clomid raised my total T to 540. E2 went to 16.
 

CatSnake

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Got the rest of the meds today, so I'll be starting today!

100 mg cyp, 250 IU HCG and 1/4 tab of anastrozole
 

CatSnake

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So far I haven't noticed a whole lot, but realistically shouldn't expect much yet either.

I did notice a significant increase in my "pump" working out the other day..... enough of a difference to realize it in the middle of my workout.
 

CatSnake

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A couple things I have been looking into, and kicking around in my head.

So according to the data below, test e/cyp seem to peak in around 10 hours (with a half-life of around 4.5 days):

http://www.bloodworks.com.au/docs/Pharmacology of testosterone preparations.pdf

however, anastrozole peaks in around 1 hour (with a half life of around 46 hours):

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/94/8/2975/2597128/Pharmacokinetics-and-Pharmacodynamics-of

I'm not sure how fast HCG peaks, but it appears to have a half life of around 23 hours:

https://www.empowerpharmacy.com/drugs/hcg-injection.html

So, after skimming through some of kenpoengineer 's posts, I was thinking something like this, maybe:

Sun-Wed: AM: HCG
Mon-Thu: AM: test cyp
Mon-Thu: PM: anastrozole

^does that makes sense, or am I reading too much into this?


side note: I edited my previous post with my updated bloodwork, for those interested...
 

CatSnake

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I ended up deciding to change my HCG dosing to Sun-Wed, so I took 250 IU's this morning. Will take the cyp tomorrow (100 mg) and Thur, and take the A-dex a couple hours after on the cyp days.

I noticed some random "wood" yesterday, so the TRT appears to be kicking in. hunger is also up (which is mildly annoying as I'm still trying to lose fat/weight). my muscles feel a bit more "full" all the time, even if it's not near my workout. not pumped or super vascular, but a touch bigger and tighter.
 

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A couple things I have been looking into, and kicking around in my head.

So according to the data below, test e/cyp seem to peak in around 10 hours (with a half-life of around 4.5 days):

http://www.bloodworks.com.au/docs/Pharmacology of testosterone preparations.pdf

however, anastrozole peaks in around 1 hour (with a half life of around 46 hours):

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/94/8/2975/2597128/Pharmacokinetics-and-Pharmacodynamics-of

I'm not sure how fast HCG peaks, but it appears to have a half life of around 23 hours:

https://www.empowerpharmacy.com/drugs/hcg-injection.html

So, after skimming through some of kenpoengineer 's posts, I was thinking something like this, maybe:

Sun-Wed: AM: HCG
Mon-Thu: AM: test cyp
Mon-Thu: PM: anastrozole

^does that makes sense, or am I reading too much into this?


side note: I edited my previous post with my updated bloodwork, for those interested...

I don't think you are over thinking it, that's a good way to do it, so you are hitting your trough and pinning hcg, I take my cyp twice a week also, when I take hcg I do it with the cyp just to keep it simple, I take anastrozole twice a week also, I take it approx. 24 hours after cyp inject, when you started with entourage did you have to go and get some type of physical?
 

CatSnake

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I don't think you are over thinking it, that's a good way to do it, so you are hitting your trough and pinning hcg, I take my cyp twice a week also, when I take hcg I do it with the cyp just to keep it simple, I take anastrozole twice a week also, I take it approx. 24 hours after cyp inject, when you started with entourage did you have to go and get some type of physical?
yeah.

I actually had just gotten my own bloodwork done and had my yearly physical maybe a month prior, so I just sent that to them. dumb luck on my part that I had all that stuff done already... :)
 

CatSnake

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I ended up ordering some tuberclin syringes the other day, and got them in the mail today. I believe it's 26 ga with a 5/8" needle. bigger than the 31 ga slin needle, but much smaller than the 23 ga IM needle. I shot that into my delt today.... no issues. I hope it wasn't too shallow for a IM shot, tho....

I also noticed that my weight is a smidge high.... I kinda pigged out over the weekend, but that weight usually comes off pretty quick when I get back on my diet. my wedding ring is also a bit snug, too. I have a very small touch of gyno on one nipple, and that was a little sensitive the other day, too.

So, I took 1/2 tab of arimidex today a couple hours after my cyp shot instead of 1/4 tab, and will see how that goes. I plan on staying with 1/4 tab, and am hoping that I just need a one-time bump to correct the E2 conversion.
 
kenpoengineer

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Did you get an email from Entourage Hormones stopping service?
 
81dcs

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A couple things I have been looking into, and kicking around in my head.

So according to the data below, test e/cyp seem to peak in around 10 hours (with a half-life of around 4.5 days):

http://www.bloodworks.com.au/docs/Pharmacology of testosterone preparations.pdf

however, anastrozole peaks in around 1 hour (with a half life of around 46 hours):

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/94/8/2975/2597128/Pharmacokinetics-and-Pharmacodynamics-of

I'm not sure how fast HCG peaks, but it appears to have a half life of around 23 hours:

https://www.empowerpharmacy.com/drugs/hcg-injection.html

So, after skimming through some of kenpoengineer 's posts, I was thinking something like this, maybe:

Sun-Wed: AM: HCG
Mon-Thu: AM: test cyp
Mon-Thu: PM: anastrozole

^does that makes sense, or am I reading too much into this?


side note: I edited my previous post with my updated bloodwork, for those interested...
How's this timing working 4 u? U know ur Sunday Monday Wednesday Thursday protocol and ur timing with them? I believe imma try the same routine out n c if it works better 4 me cause my nipples wanna get bigger if I wait 24 hrs.
 

CatSnake

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How's this timing working 4 u? U know ur Sunday Monday Wednesday Thursday protocol and ur timing with them? I believe imma try the same routine out n c if it works better 4 me cause my nipples wanna get bigger if I wait 24 hrs.
honestly... too soon to say.

I'm having a bit of an issue with timing my shots the same, as I work nights, but my schedule rotates a bit. so sometimes I'll take my shot at 700 am, and other days 700 pm.

I'm actually debating on backing everything down, and just take the cyp at 7 am on Mon, and the HCG at 7 am on Thur or Fri (and take the a-dex on shot days).

^obviously the blood levels will be slightly less stable, but I'm worried that I'm gonna miss a shot or A-dex as it is now. maybe once my blood levels are plateaued on that, I can tweak it down the road.... I dunno.
 

CatSnake

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Doc Henry called yesterday to check on me. Things are improving right now, although I think my E2 might be a bit high. I am going to take .5 mg of the Adex now, and see how that goes. <even still, I was rather concerned about crashing my E2, so I don't regret starting with conservative dosing there.

Also, he said that the HCG is a 3 month supply, which makes sense as to why I have so much. EDIT: also, I think the anastrozole Rx is for 3 months, as well...

He said that when we take our last shot of cyp, to go to the Entourage page and fill out the Rx refill request for that.
 
kenpoengineer

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What E2 issues make you think it’s high? Usually high E2 makes you moody, have acne forming with oily skin and you have hot flashes or the feeling of being hot.
 

CatSnake

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What E2 issues make you think it’s high? Usually high E2 makes you moody, have acne forming with oily skin and you have hot flashes or the feeling of being hot.
hot feeling, oily skin, some old gyno flaring up, minor water retention...
 

CatSnake

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Got my 2nd shipment today, so the auto-order seems to be working just fine.
 
81dcs

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Quick thought running thru my head. Does it really matter if u take ya anastrozole with r without food?
 

CatSnake

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Quick thought running thru my head. Does it really matter if u take ya anastrozole with r without food?
I believe you can do it either way.... although I suppose you want to be consistent, and try to do the same way most of the time.

I know aromasin is better with food, tho...
 

CatSnake

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So, I ran yesterday, and noticed that the gyno really kinda hurt when I was jogging.

I got some bloodwork drawn today (total/free test, E2), so I can see how everything is working there. I also took my HCG today, and when I did, I took 1 mg of Arimidex instead of .5 mg. I'm hoping that this will bring the E2 down enough to stop the gyno from growing, and I also ordered some research chem Raloxifene the other day and will start that when I get it.

I'm noticing a mild increase in energy, as well as leaning in the midsection a bit. I'm still fat, but not AS fat, so that's good... :)

Side note: I've been pretty happy with Dr Henry and his practice so far.... very customer service oriented, and if I have a question, he gets back to me far quicker than any other doctor I've ever had.
 
kenpoengineer

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Looking forward to your bloodwork results. Is that the regular or sensitive E2 test?
 

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If you are happy with your Dr. and his protocol for you why are you already self-medicating? You need to have supporting labs before you change or add things.

So, I ran yesterday, and noticed that the gyno really kinda hurt when I was jogging.

I got some bloodwork drawn today (total/free test, E2), so I can see how everything is working there. I also took my HCG today, and when I did, I took 1 mg of Arimidex instead of .5 mg. I'm hoping that this will bring the E2 down enough to stop the gyno from growing, and I also ordered some research chem Raloxifene the other day and will start that when I get it.

I'm noticing a mild increase in energy, as well as leaning in the midsection a bit. I'm still fat, but not AS fat, so that's good... :)

Side note: I've been pretty happy with Dr Henry and his practice so far.... very customer service oriented, and if I have a question, he gets back to me far quicker than any other doctor I've ever had.
 

CatSnake

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Looking forward to your bloodwork results. Is that the regular or sensitive E2 test?
sensitive, through Discounted Labs.

I use to go through Private MD Labs, but had some weird E2 readings (which are likely to be due to the non-sensitive test).
 

CatSnake

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If you are happy with your Dr. and his protocol for you why are you already self-medicating? You need to have supporting labs before you change or add things.
fair point.

but I don't need labs to know that my E2 is rising.... I already explained previously the symptoms I've been having. Raloxifene is pretty benign, and is an effective treatment for gyno. I guess I don't feel the need to bother him about every little thing that I have going on, especially when I got bloodwork anyway.

and I do intend on sending Dr Henry my results, as well.
 

CatSnake

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started my Ralox last night, so when I took my cyp this morning I took .5 mg of arimidex. As much as I'd like to nuke my E2 levels, I know I will have blood results in a couple days so will wait to go back up on the A-dex until then.

kenpoengineer, you've mentioned injecting your cyp and HCG at the same time.... how do you draw that so you don't contaminate the other vial?
 
kenpoengineer

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kenpoengineer, you've mentioned injecting your cyp and HCG at the same time.... how do you draw that so you don't contaminate the other vial?
I draw the testosterone cypionate first. Make sure there is no air bubble, then draw from HCG vial. Crisler recommendations this if drawing both into same syringe. I look every time at the HCG vial and there is no contamination.
 

CatSnake

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I draw the testosterone cypionate first. Make sure there is no air bubble, then draw from HCG vial. Crisler recommendations this if drawing both into same syringe. I look every time at the HCG vial and there is no contamination.
awesome-thanks man!

side note: just got done doing chest and triceps, and the pump is insane. the TRT is definitely kicking in now....
 
Aust

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awesome-thanks man!

side note: just got done doing chest and triceps, and the pump is insane. the TRT is definitely kicking in now....
I will have to look at my charts when I start trt, but think I’m at week 6.

I was doing light body-beast workouts before trt.
Restarted the program hitting it hard now in week 7 of the body-beast program, week 4 of bulk, at 206lbs. Over the past 2 month I have had to order 30, 35 & 40lb dumbbells. Will start using 35lbs more this week.

My work clinic lets us have lab work at cost from LabCorp, Test lab $10. But they said need a script, kind of ridiculous if you ask me. So put email into Dr H about getting script for the blood work.

I have seen the other lads out there but didn’t want to pay $56 for it.
 

CatSnake

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It's definitely been eye opening in how HCG affects gyno.

my previous gyno is very small, and not noticeable to the eye, and generally pea-sized. I never had gyno or bad E2 sides when I was younger and dabbling with various hormonal products, but got the gyno when I got injured a few years back and couldn't train and got fat as ****.

in fact, the only hormonal product I've taken in the past 5 years has been clomid, and I always kept that to 25 mg/day.

anyway, my gyno has grown pretty rapidly... it's now somewhat visible to the eye, and is almost golfball size (although not hard yet).

I started the raloxifene the other day, and it hasn't kicked in yet. also haven't gotten my bloodwork back yet, so I'm going to bump up my A-dex for now and e-mail the doc about it.

I'm reading a bit about HCG, and am thinking that I might need to use a lower dose than 250 IU 2x/week. maybe 125, or something like that....
 
Aust

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Are you saying hcg is increasing or decreasing it?
Anastrozole 1/2 tab twice a week for me.
 
kenpoengineer

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Are you saying hcg is increasing or decreasing it?
Anastrozole 1/2 tab twice a week for me.
That is a high dose of Anastrozole. I dose 0.25 mg every 3.5 days. Be careful you don’t crash your estradiol. Crashed estradiol feels worse than low testosterone.
 
Aust

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That is a high dose of Anastrozole. I dose 0.25 mg every 3.5 days. Be careful you don’t crash your estradiol. Crashed estradiol feels worse than low testosterone.
Feeling good so far. But keeping an eye on it.
 

CatSnake

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Are you saying hcg is increasing or decreasing it?
Anastrozole 1/2 tab twice a week for me.
increasing it. I also started at .25 mg, and then went to .5 mg. I will see if I need to go beyond that...

never had any real gyno issues until now...

it seems that HCG is pretty well known for causing aromatization, as well. apparently it directly increases aromatase activity?

http://www.pnas.org/content/76/9/4460.full.pdf

^rat study, but interesting nonetheless
 

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increasing it. I also started at .25 mg, and then went to .5 mg. I will see if I need to go beyond that...

never had any real gyno issues until now...

it seems that HCG is pretty well known for causing aromatization, as well. apparently it directly increases aromatase activity?

http://www.pnas.org/content/76/9/4460.full.pdf

^rat study, but interesting nonetheless
Tbh gyno needs to be attacked from other meds ither than adex.... but thats just mu .02
 

CatSnake

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I got part of my bloodwork back today.... still waiting on the E2 level.

My total T is up to 1304 from 540 (when I was on clomid, too. it was actually 265 prior to that) and free T is up to 31 from 14. that was drawn on Friday, and I injected 200 mg cyp on Monday. (although, with my recent gyno issues, I'm going to split that up again to reduce the aromatization...)

EDIT: got the E2 results, and my estradiol is up to 25 from 15. So I assume I will stick with the .5 mg Arimidex dose, but will e-mail the Doc about it and see what he says.

Anyway, cool to see the actual numbers go up so much. I've been on vacation for a week and eating like a pig, and have gotten a touch leaner and my workouts have been great. getting a lot of little things done around the house too, that normally would have wiped me out for a day or two...

I know I'm preaching to the choir to the other guys on TRT, but it really feels nice to have enough energy back to actually get things done and not have to take a ton of stimulants just to take care of my "honey-do" list.


(side note: while I like that Discounted Labs is closer to my house and apparently more accurate, I got spoiled by how quickly I got results back from Private MD labs.... kinda gave me unreasonable expectations, I think )


.
 

CatSnake

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so, one thing I've really been noticing lately is a significant recomp effect....

my diet has been a bit looser lately then I intended, but I have been steadily losing fat off my midsection. not sure if one loses visceral fat this fast, but it's really apparent. my wife told me to get some new pants since they're so baggy now, and I need to get some new belts, too.. and I'm regaining LBM in my upper body pretty quick, too.

energy has been good, general mood has been good, workouts have been good, general aches and pains are down now too.... the only really side is some of the E2 side effects I've had, which seem to be under control now.
 
Industrial

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so, one thing I've really been noticing lately is a significant recomp effect....

my diet has been a bit looser lately then I intended, but I have been steadily losing fat off my midsection. not sure if one loses visceral fat this fast, but it's really apparent. my wife told me to get some new pants since they're so baggy now, and I need to get some new belts, too.. and I'm regaining LBM in my upper body pretty quick, too.

energy has been good, general mood has been good, workouts have been good, general aches and pains are down now too.... the only really side is some of the E2 side effects I've had, which seem to be under control now.
That's awesome man! I haven't noticed any weight loss yet, but I have noticed my strength and endurance are through the roof
 
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I got part of my bloodwork back today.... still waiting on the E2 level.

My total T is up to 1304 from 540 (when I was on clomid, too. it was actually 265 prior to that) and free T is up to 31 from 14. that was drawn on Friday, and I injected 200 mg cyp on Monday. (although, with my recent gyno issues, I'm going to split that up again to reduce the aromatization...)

EDIT: got the E2 results, and my estradiol is up to 25 from 15. So I assume I will stick with the .5 mg Arimidex dose, but will e-mail the Doc about it and see what he says.

Anyway, cool to see the actual numbers go up so much. I've been on vacation for a week and eating like a pig, and have gotten a touch leaner and my workouts have been great. getting a lot of little things done around the house too, that normally would have wiped me out for a day or two...

I know I'm preaching to the choir to the other guys on TRT, but it really feels nice to have enough energy back to actually get things done and not have to take a ton of stimulants just to take care of my "honey-do" list.


(side note: while I like that Discounted Labs is closer to my house and apparently more accurate, I got spoiled by how quickly I got results back from Private MD labs.... kinda gave me unreasonable expectations, I think )


.
bro i also got my bloodwork done recently and my numbers look great, im at 1022 Serum Test and 18.2 E2.

Feeling good. Just need to come off of these damn stims and I will feel better.
 

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so, my blood pressure is also a bit better.... down by about 6 points diastolic and systolic since I've started TRT.
 
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I’m at 9 weeks, how long does our hcg bottle last 10 weeks @ 250 a week ?
 

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