Stack Reference Thread

[koi1214]

Go for Jarrow B-Right. It is cheaper than most, but still hits most of the co-factors. Swanson also has a great one for around $18, though.

I have been using B-Right and Swanson's Activated B-complex looks very good.

 

[domore]

I have been using B-Right and Swanson's Activated B-complex looks very good.

B-Right is cost effective and uses mainly co-factors. For what it is, you don't need to spend $18 on a b-complex.

 

[Spaniard]

Do you have the studies on hand? I'm curious to what doses were used in those studies.

It took me forever to track them down but they were found via a google search term "melatonin testosterone".

I did pay attention to dosages but there was an interesting study that showed men with hypogonadism show an increase in melatonin during nocturnal emission and men who were hyper have lower levels of melatonin. What I took away from that was that its not the dose but melatonin itself effects hpta.

There are several studies I can track down for you if need be when I get back to AZ. I'm visiting family now.

- Valdez

 

[domore]

It took me forever to track them down but they were found via a google search term "melatonin testosterone".

I did pay attention to dosages but there was an interesting study that showed men with hypogonadism show an increase in melatonin during nocturnal emission and men who were hyper have lower levels of melatonin. What I took away from that was that its not the dose but melatonin itself effects hpta.

There are several studies I can track down for you if need be when I get back to AZ. I'm visiting family now.

- Valdez

Sounds good. Enjoy your time with the family. I'm out and about too.

 

[mr.cooper69]

I remember reading about melatonin in this thread; be careful taking melatonin, everything I've read suggests it negatively effects testosterone.

- Valdez

There is actually no relevant data to this end (studies use injections/mega-doses). The pineal gland does have a suppressive effect on T release, but unless you have a complete absence of a circadian rhythm, <1 mg oral melatonin nightly won't have any significant effect. The suppressive effect occurs endogenously every night when you get tired and is partially responsible for the natural peaks and valleys in testosterone levels throughout the day. Nothing to concern yourself about; just BBers being fearmongers when it comes to good ole testosterone!

 

[Spaniard]

There is actually no relevant data to this end (studies use injections/mega-doses). The pineal gland does have a suppressive effect on T release, but unless you have a complete absence of a circadian rhythm, <1 mg oral melatonin nightly won't have any significant effect. The suppressive effect occurs endogenously every night when you get tired and is partially responsible for the natural peaks and valleys in testosterone levels throughout the day. Nothing to concern yourself about; just BBers being fearmongers when it comes to good ole testosterone!

There was no exogenous melatonin given in this study (I'm pretty sure its the right one I just skimmed due to time constraints). The melatonin was strictly off of endogenous levels. It looks as if the hormone melatonin itself (not dose dependent or exogenous) has a negative feedback on T.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9404445

- Valdez

 

[Spaniard]

Hyper T = low endogenous melatonin secretion

Hypo = High melatonin secretion

...in that study

- Valdez

 

[mr.cooper69]

There was no exogenous melatonin given in this study (I'm pretty sure its the right one I just skimmed due to time constraints). The melatonin was strictly off of endogenous levels. It looks as if the hormone melatonin itself (not dose dependent or exogenous) has a negative feedback on T.

Abnormal melatonin secretion in hypogo... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

- Valdez

This is precisely what I'm saying! Unless you are a robot, your testosterone will dip every night when you get tired anyway. Microdoses of exogenous melatonin won't significantly change this effect, as the pineal gland will feedback on the HPTA regardless.

Edit: And in reading that study, it appears the suppression is at the level of the hypothalamus. This is completely normal and shouldn't be feared. Your T will rise and fall an innumerable amount of times in a day. It's a complex system and seeking to control each component will drive you insane for no significant net gain.

 

[Jiigzz]

Well done, domore, seriously. I'd bump the LCLT up to 3 grams since most (but not all!) studies use 2g L-carnitine as LCLT, which amounts to ~3g actual LCLT.

For the health stack, I'd add 250mcg-1mg melatonin. It is actually one of the most researched health supplements out there (if not the most researched). I also believe that, while not a supplement, 81mg aspirin/day is great for both health and even body composition (fat loss via AMPK stimulation).

Where would I find Melatonin dosed at less than 1mg? Most supplements I have found are around 3mg or more.

 

[ricroc]

Ergogen Stack:[/B]
Creatine - 2.5-5g (Preferred forms: Orotate/MCC/Nitrate/Monohydrate)
Beta Alanine - 3.2g
LCLT - 3g
Citrulline Malate - 3-9g
Caffeine - Dosage dependent on user
Nitrates - As part of a designer product (e.g. Creatine Nitrate/Powershock/etc.)

-Dose creatine on workout days only
-Dose beta alanine any time of the day
-Dose LCLT preworkout
-Dose citrulline malate preworkout
-Dose nitrates anytime before workout due to long half-life

1. LCLT - only does on workout days? If no, when would be a good time to take on non-w/o days?
2. Citrulline Malate - Between 3-9, what's the optimal dosage, or does one truly have to dial it in themselves?

I keep coming back to this thread for all the juicy knowledge being given!

 

[Spaniard]

This is precisely what I'm saying! Unless you are a robot, your testosterone will dip every night when you get tired anyway. Microdoses of exogenous melatonin won't significantly change this effect, as the pineal gland will feedback on the HPTA regardless.

Edit: And in reading that study, it appears the suppression is at the level of the hypothalamus. This is completely normal and shouldn't be feared. Your T will rise and fall an innumerable amount of times in a day. It's a complex system and seeking to control each component will drive you insane for no significant net gain.

Right, it disrupts hpta, so supplementing with exogenous melatonin could in theory reduce testosterone via the same mechanisms experienced during night time secretion

- Valdez

 

[Celorza]

Right, it disrupts hpta, so supplementing with exogenous melatonin could in theory reduce testosterone via the same mechanisms experienced during night time secretion

- Valdez

Hm...What I got from the article and Cy's argument was that testosterone is bound to decline, even in healthy individuals, at night, albeit just a bit...I don't think/see how would exogenous 1mg amounts of Melatonin could even remotely reduce Testosterone as a side effect...(Not taking a shot honestly, just wanna see how come you think this and if CyForce has anything to say about it).

 

[mr.cooper69]

Right, it disrupts hpta, so supplementing with exogenous melatonin could in theory reduce testosterone via the same mechanisms experienced during night time secretion

- Valdez

You're missing the point. Transient hormonal fluxes are meaningless. By this logic, I could also mention how melatonin causes a several hundred-fold % increase in growth hormone. But it doesn't matter, because it's transient. Also, melatonin is best supplemented when you are having endogenous release anyway (aka before bed), so again, the data is irrelevant in this regard.

To put this into perspective, masturbation or sex will cause a transient drop in testosterone after orgasm. Are you going to forego those, or worry about their timing?

Only in the world of BBers do the imperceptible minutia matter

 

[mr.cooper69]

Hm...What I got from the article and Cy's argument was that testosterone is bound to decline, even in healthy individuals, at night, albeit just a bit...I don't think/see how would exogenous 1mg amounts of Melatonin could even remotely reduce Testosterone as a side effect...(Not taking a shot honestly, just wanna see how come you think this and if CyForce has anything to say about it).

This is just discussion, I don't think anyone thinks you're taking a shot ya clown

 

[mr.cooper69]

Where would I find Melatonin dosed at less than 1mg? Most supplements I have found are around 3mg or more.

I don't think NP has any, but just google 500mcg melatonin

 

[Spaniard]

You're missing the point. Transient hormonal fluxes are meaningless. By this logic, I could also mention how melatonin causes a several hundred-fold % increase in growth hormone. But it doesn't matter, because it's transient. Also, melatonin is best supplemented when you are having endogenous release anyway (aka before bed), so again, the data is irrelevant in this regard.

To put this into perspective, masturbation or sex will cause a transient drop in testosterone after orgasm. Are you going to forego those, or worry about their timing?

Only in the world of BBers do the imperceptible minutia matter

Yep, I am, I'm going to forego them all over the place

Abstinence is the only way to go gentleman.

My work here is done...

- Valdez

 

[Spaniard]

This is just discussion, I don't think anyone thinks you're taking a shot ya clown

Why is he always taking shots bro?

- Valdez

 

[Spaniard]

- Valdez

 

[mr.cooper69]

Yep, I am, I'm going to forego them all over the place

Abstinence is the only way to go gentleman.

My work here is done...

- Valdez

If a nekked Mila Kunis entered your quarters, would you abstain???

 

[mr.cooper69]

Why is he always taking shots bro?

- Valdez

Cuz da alcohol lowers T!!!!!!!

 

[domore]

Cuz da alcohol lowers T!!!!!!!

Haha but don't forgot to take your 2g Alcar pre-drinking

 

[Celorza]

Cuz da alcohol lowers T!!!!!!!

And proper Eye Sight according to the charity I did last friday night !

 

[Celorza]

Haha but don't forgot to take your 2g Alcar pre-drinking

This man has been paying close attention indeed, A for effort good kind sir.

 

[domore]

1. LCLT - only does on workout days? If no, when would be a good time to take on non-w/o days?
2. Citrulline Malate - Between 3-9, what's the optimal dosage, or does one truly have to dial it in themselves?

I keep coming back to this thread for all the juicy knowledge being given!

Take both only on workout days. Most likely you are working out four days a week anyway.

I like citrulline malate on the higher end- 8-9 grams. There has been a couple studies suggesting anaerobic benefits. However, try a variety of doses and see how you respond.

 

[domore]

And proper Eye Sight according to the charity I did last friday night !

Hahah, oh the wonders of teh booze

 

[jswain34]

If a nekked Mila Kunis entered your quarters, would you abstain???

Nobody answered the mans question! My answer, kind sir, is **** no I would not abstain.

 

[Celorza]

Nobody answered the mans question! My answer, kind sir, is **** no I would not abstain.

I don't think anyone can abstain...I do recall that out of all the ex-gfs I have had, I have always had:

-The Golden Exception rule...meaning if either of us meet a real life Movie Star (or FEMALE Pornstar) it is not cheating if we take a shot and sleep with them...given that they want to haha. It's a philosophy to live by just in case you get lucky!

 

[p5sky]

in for some knowledge

 

[domore]

in for some knowledge

We'll keep it coming.

 

[domore]

in for some knowledge

We'll keep it coming.

 

[Myokemist]

Hey fellas (and gals),

I would like to create an easy reference point for those looking for effective stacks. I will be listing a few different stacks with ingredients that have been well received on the boards or have been researched.

The stacks will include dosages and preferred timings. Please feel free to adjust or add/subtract information.

Mitochondrial Optimization, AMPK Activation, & Peptide Hormone Release Stack:
ALCAR - 2g
Agmatine - 1g
Na-R-Ala - 300mg
PLCAR - 2g
CoQ10 - 400mg (or 200mg of ubiquinol)

-Dose PLCAR away from ALCAR
-Dose PLCAR preworkout
-Dose CoQ10 w/ PLCAR or dose CoQ10 w/ fats
-Dose ALCAR, Agmatine, & Na-R-Ala 15-20 before a high-carb meal
-Dose ALCAR on an empty stomach for study purposes

Glutathione Boosting Stack:
NAC - 600mg-1.2g
TMG - 2.5g
Selenium - 100-200mcg
SAMe - 200-400mg

-Dose TMG anytime of the day
-Dose NAC & SAMe in the morning and evening
-Keep an eye on additional selenium intake (i.e. other products containing selenium/brazil nuts/etc.)

Ergogen Stack:
Creatine - 2.5-5g (Preferred forms: Orotate/MCC/Nitrate/Monohydrate)
Beta Alanine - 3.2g
LCLT - 3g
Citrulline Malate - 3-9g
Caffeine - Dosage dependent on user
Nitrates - As part of a designer product (e.g. Creatine Nitrate/Powershock/etc.)

-Dose creatine on workout days only
-Dose beta alanine any time of the day
-Dose LCLT preworkout
-Dose citrulline malate preworkout
-Dose nitrates anytime before workout due to long half-life

Health Stack:
Fish/Krill Oil - 2-3g EPA/DHA
Citicoline - 500mg-1g
Magnesium - Depends on salt (Preferred forms: magnesium orotate/magnesium glycinate/magnesium taurate)
B-Complex - Look for complex including cofactors (e.g. methylcobalamin/P5P/etc.)
Vitamin C - 500mg (Plasma saturation is reached at 500mg)
Melatonin - 250mcg-1mg
Green Tea Extract - 750mg EGCG total daily (see notes below)

-Dose fish oil & vitamin C as far away from workout as possible
-Dose B-Complex with each meal
-Dose citicoline in AM/PM
-Dose magnesium at night
-Dose 250mg EGCG before each meal to reach 750mg daily

GREAT STUFF!!

 

[bioman]

Granted, this is presented by people who really want to sell you melatonin, but it does seem to have a broad array of benefits. In the classic life extension-ista mindset..you have lots of melatonin when you are young, it declines greatly as you age, then your hair falls out and you prowl fitness boards trying to regain your former glory..er, oh wait, that's just internal monologue...


LE Magazine, October 1996 - Update: New Findings On Melatonin

A newer article...Beyond Sleep: 7 Ways Melatonin Attacks Aging Factors - Life Extension

 

[Celorza]

Hm seeing how there's many veterans of the sport and industry here...why not help domore update the first post, and add a:

"Anti-Aging" natty stack or more like a "Older and wiser" stack for the declines that come for 35+ folk, it could help a lot of them that are barely arriving to the forum-prowling era of their lives.

 

[domore]

Hm seeing how there's many veterans of the sport and industry here...why not help domore update the first post, and add a:

"Anti-Aging" natty stack or more like a "Older and wiser" stack for the declines that come for 35+ folk, it could help a lot of them that are barely arriving to the forum-prowling era of their lives.

Good idea, cel. I appreciate it.

 

[chedapalooza]

Nice info. Should MCC be taken only on workout days? Or just mono?

 

[domore]

Nice info. Should MCC be taken only on workout days? Or just mono?

Take it daily until you reach saturation, usually a month. After that, just take 3-5g on workout days only.

Studies suggest that PCr levels remain elevated for some time, even if you aren't taking it at that time.

 

[chedapalooza]

Take it daily until you reach saturation, usually a month. After that, just take 3-5g on workout days only.

Studies suggest that PCr levels remain elevated for some time, even if you aren't taking it at that time.

Gotcha. Im taking SNS caps.. I've been on exactly a week daily @4 caps instead of 6 per coops rec. I'm thinking this might make it ok to take daily? I train m-f n sometimes on Saturday. So it's basically daily already lol

 

[domore]

Gotcha. Im taking SNS caps.. I've been on exactly a week daily @4 caps instead of 6 per coops rec. I'm thinking this might make it ok to take daily? I train m-f n sometimes on Saturday. So it's basically daily already lol

At four caps, it will put you at 3 grams per day, which is perfectly fine (I would listen to coop, he is the man in medicine ). Even if you are working out everyday, you could still take a day off here and there without PCr levels dropping (once you have reached saturation). It is up to you.

 

[Beau]

Hm seeing how there's many veterans of the sport and industry here...why not help domore update the first post, and add a:

"Anti-Aging" natty stack or more like a "Older and wiser" stack for the declines that come for 35+ folk, it could help a lot of them that are barely arriving to the forum-prowling era of their lives.

Excellent idea.

Might consider an "Undermethylation Stack" as well

 

[domore]

Everybody should watch this video.

[video]http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacre_what_doctors_don_ t_know_about_the_drugs_they_pr escribe.html[/video]

 

[domore]

What does everyone think of adding methylcobalamin to the Glutiathione stack?

I figure it would fit nicely being a methyl donor, and participates in the synthesis of SAMe?

 

[Beau]

What does everyone think of adding methylcobalamin to the Glutiathione stack?

I figure it would fit nicely being a methyl donor, and participates in the synthesis of SAMe?

I like it.

You might also want to consider:

Milk Thistle
Vit C
Vit E
Vit B6
Methionine
Folic Acid

If ALA is not being taken as part of the Mitochondrial Optimization Stack, I would add ALA to the Glutathione Stack.

 

[ricroc]

A few questions:

1. What does "glutiathione" mean/refer to?
2. Na-Rala--what's this good for/help with? How does it differ from R-ALA, aside from the obvious?

Any answers or links to these would be a great help. Thanks!

 

[domore]

I like it.

You might also want to consider:

Milk Thistle
Vit C
Vit E
Vit B6
Methionine
Folic Acid

If ALA is not being taken as part of the Mitochondrial Optimization Stack, I would add ALA to the Glutathione Stack.

A few questions:

1. What does "glutiathione" mean/refer to?
2. Na-Rala--what's this good for/help with? How does it differ from R-ALA, aside from the obvious?

Any answers or links to these would be a great help. Thanks!

Hey guys, I'm studying right now for a big exam coming up. I'll get to these ASAP.

 

[kbayne]

A few questions:

1. What does "glutiathione" mean/refer to?
2. Na-Rala--what's this good for/help with? How does it differ from R-ALA, aside from the obvious?

Any answers or links to these would be a great help. Thanks!

1. Antioxidant preventing damage to important cellular components.

2. More potent and more bioavailable. Also better at lowering blood glucose.

 

[domore]

I like it.

You might also want to consider:

Milk Thistle
Vit C
Vit E
Vit B6
Methionine
Folic Acid

If ALA is not being taken as part of the Mitochondrial Optimization Stack, I would add ALA to the Glutathione Stack.

A B-Complex should actually be a part of the Glutathione Stack. Many of the cofactors are needed for the conversion of SAMe.

SAMe is a part of the methionine cycle, in which methionine is converted into SAMe. Then, SAMe will become S−Adenosyl Homocysteine after losing its methyl group. SAH will then be converted to homocysteine. At this point, homocysteine either converts back into methionine or it enters the transsulfuration pathway to convert into cysteine, which can be used in the formation of glutathione. With that said, I don't think extra methionine is warranted.

C and E are fine. Although, I would be sure to find a tocotrienol/tocopherol product instead of one that utilizes alpha-tocopherol.

A few questions:

1. What does "glutiathione" mean/refer to?
2. Na-Rala--what's this good for/help with? How does it differ from R-ALA, aside from the obvious?

Any answers or links to these would be a great help. Thanks!

Glutathione is the most abundant antioxidant in the body, and it helps recycle antioxidants within the body. It is important to the immune system and the prevention of diseases. Also, it helps speed up exercise recovery by increasing antioxidant activity. With intense exercise, glutathione levels fall, albeit temporarily.

Here is a quote from Dr. Houser:

This board is HOPEFULLY full of people who are intensely involved in anaerobic (weight/sprint/etc...) training and I will say +/- aerobic training. Not assumed as the generally sedentary lay-population used in said studies unfortunately.

The rationale is the same reason I hate when people try and apply suggested data on Vitamin E (especially when solely alpha-tocopherol is used as monotherapy).

Anyway; one must consider the amount of free radical generated on a daily basis (each time you go to the gym, each time you put something in your mouth - healthy or otherwise, oxidizing fat en route to a svelte physique you hold dear, and so on...EVERYTHING generates free radicals). Vitamin E works in synergy with the endogenous antioxidant glutathione to quench lipid peroxidation. But to do so, glutathione needs selenium which "holds" lipid radicals so that glutathione can get a crack at them. Selenium is also required for vitamin E to function properly.

NOW - ANYTHING (statin drugs, niacin, etc...) that modifies lipids (cholesterol, et al...) WILL alter glucose metabolism to some degree. Its funny how frequent this is forgotten especially by the authors of silly studies suggesting increased incidence of insulin resistance and/or diabetes development when not using clamp studies, but alas I digress.

Its not much use, however, taking selenium, if you don't have enough glutathione in the first place. Intense exercise (granted, probably 95% of gym-goers, and possibly even a good percentage who read these boards do not really embark on truly "intense" exercsie can deplete muscle glutathione by 40% and liver glutathione (from which the muscles get their refills, like glycogen) by 80%! So, rightfully so - I probably should have suggested some conditions with the dosing of selenium:

1. Barring you are truly doing "INTENSE" exercise (defined in anaerobic training as HOW close you lift to your 1RM, not by speed...there is a speed component in transitioning from aerobic to anaerobic in what is generally thought of as cardio - a shift from a jog to a sprint).

2. Fat oxidation is truly something being incorporated into your physique regimen (both on a microscopic level: if you have not had a NMR analysis by Lipo Science and evaluation of your Lp(a) and Homocysteine scores; you won't really be able to identify this -AND- on a macroscopic level: your outward phenotype).

3. You are somehow regenerating glutathione lost with exercise (which people don't generally put a lot of credence on). What I may have qualified my statement with is use of the generalized antioxidant stack: Selenomethionine + NAC + SAMe (with B Vitamins as co-factors), but there are very few products that would supply this in what I feel people really need.


While selenium supply isn't necessarily a bad one with most people's diets - let's take bodybuilder modifications: low-carb, cyclical macro, hyper- and hypo-caloric, etc... BUT also consider that selenium is NOT as well-defined in soil and farmer's don't turn profit enough to give a damn on replenishment.

But, I do appreciate you keeping me honest here. I more than likely should have said that #10 was collectively: Selenomethionine + NAC + SAMe (or TMG I suppose as "poor man's SAMe") + B vitamins (but Bs were already coming in at #1 for so many different co-factor reasons) and barring exercise intensity was up to par (recall that you will harbor some level of insulin resistance - even non-diabetic with as littel as > 48 hours of inactivity; the studies illustrated are not ideal to apply to most I would hope to campaign for on this board.

1. Antioxidant preventing damage to important cellular components.

2. More potent and more bioavailable. Also better at lowering blood glucose.

Thanks.

 

[kbayne]

Thanks.

No problem. I was walking home and thought it chime in a bit.

 

[Beau]

A B-Complex should actually be a part of the Glutathione Stack. Many of the cofactors are needed for the conversion of SAMe.

SAMe is a part of the methionine cycle, in which methionine is converted into SAMe. Then, SAMe will become S−Adenosyl Homocysteine after losing its methyl group. SAH will then be converted to homocysteine. At this point, homocysteine either converts back into methionine or it enters the transsulfuration pathway to convert into cysteine, which can be used in the formation of glutathione. With that said, I don't think extra methionine is warranted.

C and E are fine. Although, I would be sure to find a tocotrienol/tocopherol product instead of one that utilizes alpha-tocopherol.

Thank you.

I will be using Jarrow B-Right, NAC, Selenium, TMG, ALA, Milk Thistle and Vit E (tocotrienol/tocopherol).

With a family of heart disease, I am also using Vit C/Lysine/Proline; using the Linus Pauling ratios modified for 500 mg Vit C every 4 hours, as well as using Carsosine, Vit K1, Vit K2, Benfothiamine.

This is all good stuff. Thank you.

 

[ricroc]

Thanks kbayne and domore.

 

[domore]

Edited original post; Added some reference threads