Soy Lecithin Question

liftandeat said:
Anybody wanna hear a joke? Anything that has to do with soy.

I don't even allow it in my home lol

There are so many reasons to hate it just do some research
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Umm....Actually, you are the one who needs to do some research. You will be very suprised about the benefits of soy lecithins.
 
EBF Inc said:
Yes vs brand

But vs brand was cheaper and I played with dosing

Never higher the 2 servings

Fearn I did just 7g (half serving)

I also noticed livido issues as well
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Highly doubt the soy lecithins had anything to do with your libido.
 
EBF Inc said:
Yes vs brand But vs brand was cheaper and I played with dosing Never higher the 2 servings Fearn I did just 7g (half serving) I also noticed livido issues as well
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Same here honestly. Bloated up like crazy out of nowhere when I started using 2 tbls/day. Not worth the benefits (didn't even notice anything positive).
 
EBF Inc said:
I don't think you can use that as a blanket statement like that man. Not saying you should worry but soy and its isoflavones in different aMounts have different affects.

But the amounts people are consuming in here are high, period. Most pa content from the granular are 1.2g per 15g serving

Some people are doing 45g soy lechithin

The studies on pa were done with 750mg which is only 7g

I can say from my experience with it, water retention and estrogenic affects happened for me

I've ceased the use of it, no more issues
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Water retention (weight gain) is normal with PA / soy lecithin due to glycogen retention. I dont say you are not right at all, but have you done bloodwork showing that soy lecithin increased your estrogen levels?i really doubt it was due to Estrogen increase.like I said, even taking 10 table spoons with soy lecithin ,there will not be estrogen issues.
Bloating dont need to have anything to do with estrogen.

My friend said he got gyno from a PWO. and actually he had gyno symptoms.
I told him to go to doc and fix some bloodwork.
The results showed iodine levels was loooow. After supplementating iodine, not only did his gyno went back to normal but he felt 100% better too. And bloodwork showed normal estrogen levels even having gyno symptoms. Ichy ball around the nipple etc
 
Chefdeez said:
Same here honestly. Bloated up like crazy out of nowhere when I started using 2 tbls/day. Not worth the benefits (didn't even notice anything positive).
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Like I said. Thats not due to estrogen but glycogen retention.
 
Chefdeez said:
Probably right but you can't say this like it's a fact.
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It IS fact!
If I lie then Dr Wilson is one of them who lie too. :D
If you dig up studies done on soybean (remember, soy granules are almost free for isoflavones) you will find there is nothing to worry about. Overblown broscience.

One of my friend is drinking soy because he has milk protein allergy (its NOT lactose intolerance).
He has taken bloodwork many times and no increase in estrogen levels at ALL. He is drinking soy protein 2-3 times daily.

Those who take bloodwork and showing their estrogen levels increase after soy lecithin usage, then I will think differently.
 
Danes said:
Like I said. Thats not due to estrogen but glycogen retention.
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I've heard that it spares glycogen. Wish I could pinpoint where that came from. Gotta check the web
 
Chefdeez said:
Probably right but you can't say this like it's a fact.
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PA as example. Its a phospholipid and not isoflavone. It has nothing to do with estrogen levels at all but people are getting weightgain (bloated) even not eating more . And that has nothing to do with estrogenic sides. Like Wilson anf Jeffrey said its due to Glycogen retention
 
Danes said:
Water retention (weight gain) is normal with PA / soy lecithin due to glycogen retention. I dont say you are not right at all, but have you done bloodwork showing that soy lecithin increased your estrogen levels?i really doubt it was due to Estrogen increase.like I said, even taking 10 table spoons with soy lecithin ,there will not be estrogen issues.
Bloating dont need to have anything to do with estrogen.

My friend said he got gyno from a PWO. and actually he had gyno symptoms.
I told him to go to doc and fix some bloodwork.
The results showed iodine levels was loooow. After supplementating iodine, not only did his gyno went back to normal but he felt 100% better too. And bloodwork showed normal estrogen levels even having gyno symptoms. Ichy ball around the nipple etc
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Exactly, lets see some bloodwork to back up the "its giving me estrogen sides". I get bloodwork work done every three months and my e2 levels have not changed in the past three testings. I am not saying it is impossible that it is increasing estrogen, but its unlikely and without the bloods we are just talking in broscience.
 
Danes said:
Glycogen retention (retain) ;)
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yes I was just trying to back up what you said in a different way :) lol gotta find it tho, sucks trying to surf the good ole web on my phone lol
 
i can say that the fearns brand really blew me away the second tub was vita brand and the results pretty much stopped....now that ppl mention it i did have itchy nips a few days but nothing really bad
 
ELROCK said:
Exactly, lets see some bloodwork to back up the "its giving me estrogen sides". I get bloodwork work done every three months and my e2 levels have not changed in the past three testings. I am not saying it is impossible that it is increasing estrogen, but its unlikely and without the bloods we are just talking in broscience.
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AMEN!!!

i mean, big doses of Soy Bean could MAYBE increase estrogen but the % would be so low that it would not affect the body negative at ALL.

and soy lecithin which are above 90% phospholipids dont contain those "phytoestrogens" at all and if it does the % is low.

People are getting bloated? I am buying that. But it has nothing to do with estrogen
 
ELROCK said:
Others have in this thread. I was just sharing my opinion along with some hard evidence of my experience with soy lecithin.
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I also wanted to note that I have been taking 2-3 tablespoons of Fearns SL so 1200mg-1800mg of pa. I do not take 4 plus tablespoons like some have been. Still at that dose I highly doubt it would raise estrogen at all, but it may bloat you.
 
ELROCK said:
I also wanted to note that I have been taking 2-3 tablespoons of Fearns SL so 1200mg-1800mg of pa. I do not take 4 plus tablespoons like some have been. Still at that dose I highly doubt it would raise estrogen at all, but it may bloat you.
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Yea. Some can be bloated of contretated PA product but nothing horrible
 
No one stopped to think everybody responds differently to different things. Who knows what will affect you based on all the other factors involved in every individuals life.
 
EMPIREMIND said:
No one stopped to think everybody responds differently to different things. Who knows what will affect you based on all the other factors involved in every individuals life.
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I do agree but the science and studies are showing different story. If someone show me bloodwork where estrogen level is elevated then that would be different story too.
Lets be realistic here:

Even strongest oral steroid like Anadrol would not give you estrogen sides such as gyno synptoms etc (even aromatization on anadrol is SICK high) after just couple of days like some are getting from soy granules (after 4-7 days of usage).

I dont say those who get those symptoms do lie but its not due to elevated estrogen levels.

Conclution:
-like science say, soy lecithin has been refined so much that the isoflavones are essentially just there in trace amounts.
So NO, there would NOT be estrogen sides.
-bloating will happen (some experience more or less than other) and like said, even concentrated PA would bloat due to glycogen retention (nothing to do with estrogen).

Those who find bloating very annoying then go for ArA :)
 
Danes said:
Water retention (weight gain) is normal with PA / soy lecithin due to glycogen retention. I dont say you are not right at all, but have you done bloodwork showing that soy lecithin increased your estrogen levels?i really doubt it was due to Estrogen increase.like I said, even taking 10 table spoons with soy lecithin ,there will not be estrogen issues. Bloating dont need to have anything to do with estrogen. My friend said he got gyno from a PWO. and actually he had gyno symptoms. I told him to go to doc and fix some bloodwork. The results showed iodine levels was loooow. After supplementating iodine, not only did his gyno went back to normal but he felt 100% better too. And bloodwork showed normal estrogen levels even having gyno symptoms. Ichy ball around the nipple etc
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I have had gyno in the past, however, the lechithin did flare it up.

But I legit have it. Not "my nipples itch I may have it" or it's slightly puffy.


Blood work to show estrogen, no.

First I've heard of iodine supplementation for gyno.

Weight gain due to glycogen retention is normal yes, but the watery look I had vs glycogen retention was enough to say to me, not worth it

I used it for 10 weeks with varying doses. Some strength increase, I felt ok on it. Didn't like the look nor the increased knot soze in my chest

Blood work or not, once removed, it was better
 
EBF Inc said:
I have had gyno in the past, however, the lechithin did flare it up.

But I legit have it. Not "my nipples itch I may have it" or it's slightly puffy.


Blood work to show estrogen, no.

First I've heard of iodine supplementation for gyno.

Weight gain due to glycogen retention is normal yes, but the watery look I had vs glycogen retention was enough to say to me, not worth it

I used it for 10 weeks with varying doses. Some strength increase, I felt ok on it. Didn't like the look nor the increased knot soze in my chest

Blood work or not, once removed, it was better
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Send me your paypal adress and i will pay for your bloodwork. (Before and after lecithin). If it elevate estrogen levels so bad then we can prove that all studies and
Those Drs and scientists are wrong
 
Danes said:
It IS fact! If I lie then Dr Wilson is one of them who lie too. :D If you dig up studies done on soybean (remember, soy granules are almost free for isoflavones) you will find there is nothing to worry about. Overblown broscience. One of my friend is drinking soy because he has milk protein allergy (its NOT lactose intolerance). He has taken bloodwork many times and no increase in estrogen levels at ALL. He is drinking soy protein 2-3 times daily. Those who take bloodwork and showing their estrogen levels increase after soy lecithin usage, then I will think differently.
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Again, putting everyone under the same umbrella is not the right way to look at it. No matter how you see it not everyone will fit

Physiology is quite different with regards to people's hormone levels, estrogen metabolism

You seem to be a huge advocate for soy lechethin, which is fine, it isn't for me due to reasons I've stated.

And to say it's a fact estrogen won't cause water retention (different then bloating I believe you used them interchangably by mistake) again, false. But again other factors like aldosterone come into play
 
Is it possible for something to act estrogenically in the body but not be detected in a blood test as actual estrogen?
 
EBF Inc said:
Again, putting everyone under the same umbrella is not the right way to look at it. No matter how you see it not everyone will fit

Physiology is quite different with regards to people's hormone levels, estrogen metabolism

You seem to be a huge advocate for soy lechethin, which is fine, it isn't for me due to reasons I've stated.

And to say it's a fact estrogen won't cause water retention (different then bloating I believe you used them interchangably by mistake) again, false. But again other factors like aldosterone come into play
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Like I said many times, lecithin is so refined that its just TRACE of isoflavones.

Send me paypal adress and I will gladly pay for your bloodwork before and after soy lecithin.
 
Danes said:
I do agree but the science and studies are showing different story. If someone show me bloodwork where estrogen level is elevated then that would be different story too. Lets be realistic here: Even strongest oral steroid like Anadrol would not give you estrogen sides such as gyno synptoms etc (even aromatization on anadrol is SICK high) after just couple of days like some are getting from soy granules (after 4-7 days of usage). I dont say those who get those symptoms do lie but its not due to elevated estrogen levels. Conclution: -like science say, soy lecithin has been refined so much that the isoflavones are essentially just there in trace amounts. So NO, there would NOT be estrogen sides. -bloating will happen (some experience more or less than other) and like said, even concentrated PA would bloat due to glycogen retention (nothing to do with estrogen). Those who find bloating very annoying then go for ArA :)
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Have you used potent orals? 4-7 days you won't see a knot develop that's a little bit soon unless pre existing

Please start posting references to your science for everyone as it seems you keep saying science and fact

Please stop using bloat and water retention interchangeably

Bloating can be due to digestive issues
Water retention may be due to estrogenic sides or aldosterone levels, or carbohydrate spill over
 
Danes said:
Send me your paypal adress and i will pay for your bloodwork. (Before and after lecithin). If it elevate estrogen levels so bad then we can prove that all studies and Those Drs and scientists are wrong
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I am not using lechithin and flaring up the issue, blood work or not, it's not a comfortable feeling
 
EBF Inc said:
Have you used potent orals? 4-7 days you won't see a knot develop that's a little bit soon unless pre existing

Please start posting references to your science for everyone as it seems you keep saying science and fact

Please stop using bloat and water retention interchangeably

Bloating can be due to digestive issues
Water retention may be due to estrogenic sides or aldosterone levels, or carbohydrate spill over
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I know exactly how those steroids works and the reason why i compared (i know it CANT be compared) its to crush this broscience.
We need to be realistic here.
I wish my english was 100% , we could discuss this on a whole new level buddy.

But my offer is,
-i pay for your bloodwork like I said
 
I believe lechithin granules are lechithin powder mixed with soy oil to form the granules. In which cases that oil does contain a decent amount of phytoestrogens

They aren't required to list them so we really do not know and all is brand specific. We both know that.

Again, I thank you for the offer however I am not causing a flare up on the account to prove something works negativly in my body

It's like me eating walnuts to prove to you my throat closes when I do, uncomfortable and stupid.
 
EBF Inc said:
I am not using lechithin and flaring up the issue, blood work or not, it's not a comfortable feeling
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So ,
-You believe it mess with your estrogen
-dont have any bloodwork to show

Me, have seen studies , been talking with Dr Wilson and Dr Jeffrey and they both said that lecithin and concentrated PA would NOT give any estrogen issues at all due to almost non existing isoflavones in Lecithin.
So if they are wrong, then I am wrong too

Bloating from PA/Lecithin is due to glycogen retention. .

Example.
Nipple to my friend was ok , then he tried a PWO and it was worse. Bloodtest showed to low iodine levels after taking iodine he was fine.
Maybe you have low levels of something? And if you havent taken bloodwork, you have no idea.

This discussion is over for me.:)
You are a wise man and I do mean this.
Remember, i am not trying to be rude or anything but I do trust scientists and Drs (their opinion on soy lecithin/PA).

So thats why a bloodwork would be a nice thing so we can see. But understand your situation
 
EBF Inc said:
Yes vs brand

But vs brand was cheaper and I played with dosing


Never higher the 2 servings

Fearn I did just 7g (half serving)

I also noticed livido issues as well
Click to expand...

Honestly, this is what concern me a little bit. Libido issues from soy lecithin?
I think you need to check your HPTA and do a full bloodwork. Seems like it can be low levels of something
 
I think the moral of the story is supplements effect people differently. I for one will not use lecithin anymore. Didn't notice any positives in 2 months. When I stopped using it I leaned down dramatically in a week. I don't care if it's glycogen retention bottom line is its not a good look for me.
 
Chefdeez said:
I think the moral of the story is supplements effect people differently. I for one will not use lecithin anymore. Didn't notice any positives in 2 months. When I stopped using it I leaned down dramatically in a week. I don't care if it's glycogen retention bottom line is its not a good look for me.
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Ofcourse it does. Thats totaly true and I agree.

But there is much placebo effects around and if people get headache they say its from the supplement they began to use.

I remember my friend wanted so badly to use dianabol. And I tried to tell him to NOT do it.
He wanted and I said "ok i will help you".
I fixed small magnesium" tablets and gave to him.
1 week after he was complaining about loss of libido, sleep issues and other things. He was 100% sure this was due to this steroid. But then when I said it was just magnesium and we talked about his situation, the truth was, he was stressed of the job and his girlfriend was leaving him. That caused libido problems,sleep issues and much more.

Another friend complained that one of T Boosters actually made his libido worse, and he felt he had less testosterone etc.
I forced him to take bloodwork and he did. He was very supprised how good his levels was . LH, free T And everything was more than perfect for his age .
So can we blame the product by saying "well it affected him". The product didnt, but the truth is , he was worried about money/economy last 2 weeks.

I am not trying to say people are feeling placebo when you get itchy nipple etc but it can be many things and estrogen does not need to be the reason.
Like I said. Its big difference from what YOU "feel" and what your bloodwork is showing.

If someone want to take bloodwork (those who get those ichy nipples of granules) before and after taking soy lecithin , send me PM and I will pay for bloodworks

The End from me :)
 
Danes said:
Honestly, this is what concern me a little bit. Libido issues from soy lecithin? I think you need to check your HPTA and do a full bloodwork. Seems like it can be low levels of something
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wasn't so much livido it was more so function

Drive always there but could have been stress factors involved which did occur around same time
 
kenpoengineer said:
No expert here but from my reading ANYTHING that has soy in it should be avoided. Here is an example to read:

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soya is fine dude... the bad is over hyped and the good is left by the road side...
 
i realize there are many health benefits from lecithin granules outside of PA's performance boosts. BUT

have people considered the amount of other things they are getting, especially danes and other folks dosing 2-3x "normal" serving sizes...?
ie, folic acid, thiamin, ect. this sort of strikes me like when people are like well ill just eat a bunch of cocoa and get my -epi intake in that way, without considering the high amounts of other things that can be potentially bad for you.

im by no means educated on things like this and only trying to drum up some thoughts on this as i havent seen it mentioned in any of the big threads on it, but ive read some things about folic acid that may cause cancer or other issues from random things your are ingesting in the lecithin.
 
squirtguns89 said:
i realize there are many health benefits from lecithin granules outside of PA's performance boosts. BUT

have people considered the amount of other things they are getting, especially danes and other folks dosing 2-3x "normal" serving sizes...?
ie, folic acid, thiamin, ect. this sort of strikes me like when people are like well ill just eat a bunch of cocoa and get my -epi intake in that way, without considering the high amounts of other things that can be potentially bad for you.

im by no means educated on things like this and only trying to drum up some thoughts on this as i havent seen it mentioned in any of the big threads on it, but ive read some things about folic acid that may cause cancer or other issues from random things your are ingesting in the lecithin.
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1.My bloodwork show everything is perfect (been taking granules 6 months or more now).
2.I have asked Dr. Wilson about high doses of choline and everything found in Granules. We talked about toxicy +++.
The answer was: nothing to worry about.
3.I mean, even using supplements bloodwork should be done . Its not only due to supplements but how life can affect things and its good to know how body actually is thanks to bloodwork.
4.Taking 3g of PA daily from granules is not bad at all.you will NOT get to much of Iron,magnesium, vitamin E And what so ever.
5.even 50g of Soy lecithin would not hurt at all. But calories would be an issue if you are on a diet. Thats why concentrated PA or PS would be better.
6.guys, stop the drama please. This was a nice thread before and turned into ..... :D
7.we can disscus days after days, PA is still the safest and one of the best natural musclebuilders . And studies dont lie at all. Soy lecithin could be even better due to other phospholipids like PS and more.

I am sitting on this forum with my phone so thats i dont use those codes for Bold,colors etc :)
 
I just take the pills. Im not swallowing a bunch of crap pre workout. Not easy to travel around. Messy. Took Cutler King first when it had mediator. Liked it. I recently bought one from GNC by Epiq. Feels the same as the old King. I second the notion that people are more than likely getting bloated from the other things in soy lechitin. I liken it to eating enough oranges to get 1000mgs of vitamin C or just taking vitamin C tablets. Isnt practical. I would feel bloated.
 
Danes said:
1.My bloodwork show everything is perfect (been taking granules 6 months or more now).
2.I have asked Dr. Wilson about high doses of choline and everything found in Granules. We talked about toxicy +++.
The answer was: nothing to worry about.
3.I mean, even using supplements bloodwork should be done . Its not only due to supplements but how life can affect things and its good to know how body actually is thanks to bloodwork.
4.Taking 3g of PA daily from granules is not bad at all.you will NOT get to much of Iron,magnesium, vitamin E And what so ever.
5.even 50g of Soy lecithin would not hurt at all. But calories would be an issue if you are on a diet. Thats why concentrated PA or PS would be better.
6.guys, stop the drama please. This was a nice thread before and turned into ..... :D
7.we can disscus days after days, PA is still the safest and one of the best natural musclebuilders . And studies dont lie at all. Soy lecithin could be even better due to other phospholipids like PS and more.

I am sitting on this forum with my phone so thats i dont use those codes for Bold,colors etc :)
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sounds like you've done your due diligence, i appreciate that. So concerning dr wilson and everything else youve came up on, youd have not the slightest worry in daily supplementing this for years? I think theres a major fear mongering trend with anything related to cancer or other problems that are probably highly irrelevant in most circumstances but its always good to consider.

there's a trademarked product called ntfactor, which costs a boat load of money, although the fearn doesnt list the whole breakdown i dont think, i imagine majority of the ntfactor can be got from soy lecithins, (albeit at different ratios) the basic write up for the ntfactor "Supports the structural vitality of cellular and mitochondrial membranes, including normal membrane potential and ATP energy production."

whether or not, at these ratios, and slightly different formula are completely comparable or not, idk. but id say, it definitely seems these granules hold a lot more benefits outside of workout purposes, even for those that dont anecdotalally notice the workout effects.

All this of course, is quite obvious, but id be highly interested in someone more intelligent than myself breaking down the mitochondria boosting and other benefits for these granules have to offer.
 
For anyone interested, (not sure if this was ever addressed), although i realize its pretty standard acknowledgment that most granules are going to the same. I emailed LEF for those that may be curious about other brands and got the full break down of their lecithin product.

"We are happy to address your inquiry regarding our Lecithin product.

Per 10 g of Lecithin granules, there is 0.7 g of Phosphatidic Acid.

Additionally, each serving provides: 2.3g of phosphatidylcholine, 2.0g of phosphatidylethanolamine, 1.4g of phosphyatidylinositol, 1g of acylphosphatidylethanolamine, diphosphatidylglycerol, lysophosphatidylethanolamine, lysophosphatidylcholine and other unidentified phospholipids, 1.5g of glycolipids, 0.2g of neutral lipids, 0.8g of sugar, and 0.1g of moisture."

im not sure what route ill go, but its only marginally more expensive for a more reputable company. not to say fearn is bad.
 
alland said:
I just take the pills. Im not swallowing a bunch of crap pre workout. Not easy to travel around. Messy. Took Cutler King first when it had mediator. Liked it. I recently bought one from GNC by Epiq. Feels the same as the old King. I second the notion that people are more than likely getting bloated from the other things in soy lechitin. I liken it to eating enough oranges to get 1000mgs of vitamin C or just taking vitamin C tablets. Isnt practical. I would feel bloated.
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I also like to have some concentrated PA pills on hand for times when taking a bunch of lecithin granules would be a bit of a pain. I have to admit, when I don't have any of the capsules around, there are days when I don't get in any PA, either because I wasn't in the mood, or I was out of the house before my workout and didn't want to carry them around with me. In my opinion, the granules still have a place in my supplement cabinet until someone comes out with a VERY economical PA supplement that's more convenient. There are some days when I'm willing to pay a bit more to take a few pills instead of the granules, and for that reason I keep a few bottles of a PA supplement on hand. I'm curious to see the price and profile of MusleTech's Phosphamuscle.
 
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