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..some quite upsetting news about my current cycle

Anarchy939

Member
As you all know I have been getting bloodwork done regularly as I have been taking these different compounds.. Now I had some bloodwork done this past friday, and I received the results today. I had been on Max LMG for 11 days prior, dosed at 75mg/day. I feel like such a fucking moron for starting another cycle immediately after using Ultra HOT..

Total T: 106ng/dl (241-827)
Free T: 2.3 (9.5-43.0)
Estradiol: 132 (21-50)
LH: <0.3
FSH: <0.3

Below are the results 2 1/2 weeks prior to the above test:

Total T: 1069ng/dl (241-827)
Free T: 45.9 (9.5-43.0)
Estradiol: 16 (21-50)
LH: 1.8
FSH: 3.6

Fucking ****! I am off this stuff and not going on again for a really long time, if ever.. What should I do now? Can I recover fairly quickly if I use HOT or Clomid for a few weeks..?? ****, I feel so goddamn stupid. I wish I weren't so impatient.. Just offer some help here please, and don't flame me..
 
Nothing to freak out about actually. A decent PCT with Raloxifene, Nolva, RXT, or UH will bring you back out of the hole. After PCT stay off for a couple of months at least before starting any more cycles.

Going on any anabolic, especially these newer powerful orals will crash your test..in fact I'd say PLAN on having no test within days of initiating a cycle.
 
Yeah I don't get what the upsetting news is...take this as a lesson learned: anytime you use anything hormonal/anabolic you've gotta expect a drop in your body's own production of testosterone. It'll come back...this is the purpose of post cycle therapy.
 
How long do you presume it will take to recover? I am hoping maybe 2 weeks or so. (I know it's hard to predict, but I just want a ballpark estimate)

thanks.
 
Anarchy939 said:
How long do you presume it will take to recover? I am hoping maybe 2 weeks or so. (I know it's hard to predict, but I just want a ballpark estimate)

thanks.
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2 weeks.....:lol:
Typically, it will take a BIT longer than that...
 
So Max LMG shut you down this bad in only 11 days? Wow, that would explain Max's libido crushing powers.

It would be really interesting to see what happens if you just take Ultra Hot for the next few weeks and get another test. Would be a true test of Ultra Hot's HPTA stimulating powers.

Like others said, don't worry too much. Use this as a learning experience. Good luck on your recovery.
 
After nine weeks of Max LMG, using only Ultra Hot for the HPTA (three caps nightly,) I'm starting to feel "recovered" in the middle/end of my third week.
 
Anarchy939 said:
This kinda sucks.. I get shut down in 11 days, but it takes like 4x as long to recover.. ugh
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You were probably shut down before 11 days. The point is that nobody told you to discontinue the cycle after 11 days. Ride it out, then worry about PCT. The extra stress from worrying about it is not bosting to well for your rebound either....
 
its IMO a good idea to stop this cycle anyways, simply because my body's been put thru too many cycles lately. I don't want to permanently ruin my hormonal functions and organs, so I plan on just running PCT now and maybe a few months down the road run a cycle responsibly once I get a little more self-control.
 
Anarchy939 said:
its IMO a good idea to stop this cycle anyways, simply because my body's been put thru too many cycles lately. I don't want to permanently ruin my hormonal functions and organs, so I plan on just running PCT now and maybe a few months down the road run a cycle responsibly once I get a little more self-control.
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I gotta agree with Max32 on this, ride it out, another 19 days isnt going to ruin your system. Your body is tougher than you think.
 
i wouldnt blame the max lmg, but rather the last 3 or so half assed cycles and long periods of pct that have done this. as the others said, some good pct, maybe a jab or 2 of some sust from the doc and your levels will be up there again. may take a while though.
 
It's not that big of a deal Anarchy, don't freak out (that is usually my problem). Just run your cycle and do a PCT and you will be fine. If it were blood pressure or something pretty serious I could see it, but this happens with anything that alters hormones brah. Either way good luck with whatever you decide.
 
Thanks guys.. I guess I was just a little peeved that things bottomed out so fast. I think knowing that it will probably be just as long before I recover if I stop now compared to running the full cycle has made me realize that I should just finish out with my plans and keep my head on straight. Oh, if it means anything, I'm up 10-11lbs thus far, and today is day #16 of ~30. not too shabby. Chest is up a full inch relaxed, and up to 48" flexed (lats flexed as well). Quads are up ~1/2", Arms are up 1/2" as well. My waist is up between 1/2 to 1" so far. skinfold measurements are up 1-2mm on the stomach area, to 10mm, but this usually happens all the time and goes away Post-Cycle, which leads me to believe that its simply edema. Strength is doing pretty well too.

I'd have to say that my favorite part though about this cycle is that oddly enough, my libido is insane! Best freaking nights ever lately! (no, I am not talking about getting off on a photo of some chic either ;) )

I'll update you all on how things turn out. I am using tons of antioxidants right now too:

Milk Thistle
Dandelion Root
Michael's Kidney Factors (a blend of dif. herbs/B. Vitamins)
Liv. 52
Sesathin
Fish Oil
CoQ10
GlucoPhase XR
Lean Extreme (1 upon rising, 1 before bed)
2+ gallons of water per day

Here's my PCT protocol for maximized recovery:

Week 1: Clomid/Ultra HOT, Fenugreek, ZMA, LXtreme + ECA + CEE
Week 2: Clomid/Ultra HOT, Fenugreek, ZMA, LXtreme + ECA + CEE
Week 3: Clomid/Ultra HOT, Fenugreek, ZMA, LXtreme + ECA + CEE + Tribulus
Week 4: Clomid/Ultra HOT, Fenugreek, ZMA, LXtreme + ECA + CEE + Tribulus
Week 5: Fenugreek, ZMA, LXtreme, Tribulus, CEE, ALCAR/Tyrosine
Week 6: ZMA, LXtreme, Tribulus, CEE, ALCAR/Tyrosine

* I will either use clomid or ultra hot, not both.
 
Anarchy939 said:
As you all know I have been getting bloodwork done regularly as I have been taking these different compounds.. Now I had some bloodwork done this past friday, and I received the results today. I had been on Max LMG for 11 days prior, dosed at 75mg/day. I feel like such a fucking moron for starting another cycle immediately after using Ultra HOT..

Total T: 106ng/dl (241-827)
Free T: 2.3 (9.5-43.0)
Estradiol: 132 (21-50)
LH: <0.3
FSH: <0.3

Below are the results 2 1/2 weeks prior to the above test:

Total T: 1069ng/dl (241-827)
Free T: 45.9 (9.5-43.0)
Estradiol: 16 (21-50)
LH: 1.8
FSH: 3.6

Fucking ****! I am off this stuff and not going on again for a really long time, if ever.. What should I do now? Can I recover fairly quickly if I use HOT or Clomid for a few weeks..?? ****, I feel so goddamn stupid. I wish I weren't so impatient.. Just offer some help here please, and don't flame me..
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...I have a really serious question to ask though. Why is it that my Etradiol is now 132!? I thought Max LMG wasn't capable of aromatization... Anything else that could cause this bs?
 
Anarchy939 said:
...I have a really serious question to ask though. Why is it that my Etradiol is now 132!? I thought Max LMG wasn't capable of aromatization... Anything else that could cause this bs?
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I was wondering that too. My theory was that you had pretty high test because you were taking Ultra Hot and when the AI effects of the HOT wore off your test started aromatizing to estro. Just a theory tho, i am guessing someone else with more knowledge might have a better answer.
 
Anarchy, That's a damn good question about the estradiol number, I wish i had the answer for you, hopefully someone will chime in with some sound knowledge on what's going on, i wish you well. I would use some nolva or armidex or some form of anti e while staying on the rest of your cycle, JMHO of course.

Quick ? for you, Those are some very good test numbers you had after your UH run, did you use ultra as a stand alone to gain those numbers are was your UH cycle run as a pct after something else? At my age i would love to have high test like that without suppressing my natural test.

Goodluck with the rest of your cycle & let us know how it turns out as im interested.

Mickey
 
again I dont see anything wrong with those #'s except the estrogen levels seem high. you should expect #'s like that during a cycle. this is the reason I have such a hard problem with pct. androgens shut you down. I agree with mick92 run some UH for the rest of your cycle.
 
My theory was that you had pretty high test because you were taking Ultra Hot and when the AI effects of the HOT wore off your test started aromatizing to estro.
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I would venture a guess that you had high test and then the MAX suppressed your natural test production, but not your estrogen, so when the UH wore off, your body overcompensated your estrogen level but your test levels became supressed, so you were left with high estradiol conversion. This should probably decrease with a few caps of UH. Author has discussed his ideas on using it on cycle before if estrogen is too high.

With all of the cycles you've been running, you should expect your HPTA to be quite off-balance. Take a nice long break after this one. Your body will thank you. In the meantime run some creatine off cycle.
 
Brooklyn said:
I would venture a guess that you had high test and then the MAX suppressed your natural test production, but not your estrogen, so when the UH wore off, your body overcompensated your estrogen level but your test levels became supressed, so you were left with high estradiol conversion. This should probably decrease with a few caps of UH. Author has discussed his ideas on using it on cycle before if estrogen is too high.

With all of the cycles you've been running, you should expect your HPTA to be quite off-balance. Take a nice long break after this one. Your body will thank you. In the meantime run some creatine off cycle.
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So I guess that the halflife of estrogen is forever, and yet the halflife of test is what 7 minutes? Overcompensated your estrogen level? What does goonie does that mean? Ediol comes from the Test. No Test, and Ediol will be low as well, unless it is coming from an external source.
 
Anarchy939 said:
Would it really do me any good to continue nolva, or should I do something else?
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Nolva is good. Anthing to get the estradiol down and the T up. I'd bag the current cycle and get my boys back. Who knows much about this LMG anyway? It seems to be working with users for sure, but at what cost?
 
PCT Option 1:

Week 1: Clomid/Ultra HOT, Fenugreek, ZMA, LXtreme + ECA + CEE
Week 2: Clomid/Ultra HOT, Fenugreek, ZMA, LXtreme + ECA + CEE
Week 3: Clomid/Ultra HOT, Fenugreek, ZMA, LXtreme + ECA + CEE + Tribulus
Week 4: Clomid/Ultra HOT, Fenugreek, ZMA, LXtreme + ECA + CEE + Tribulus
Week 5: Fenugreek, ZMA, LXtreme, Tribulus, CEE, ALCAR/Tyrosine
Week 6: ZMA, LXtreme, Tribulus, CEE, ALCAR/Tyrosine

I have another idea for Post-Cycle therapy.. which option do you think would be better?

Week 3: CURRENTLY RUNNING
Week 4: Ultra HOT, Max LMG
Week 5: Ultra HOT, Max LMG
Week 6: Ultra HOT, Max LMG
-- PCT
Week 1: Clomid 150MG, Fenu 3 caps, ZMA, LX, ECA, CEE
Week 2: Clomid 100MG, Fenu 4 caps, ZMA, LX, ECA, CEE
Week 3: Clomid 50MG, Fenu 5 caps, ZMA, LX, ECA, CEE
Week 4: Clomid 25MG, Fenu 6 caps, ZMA, LX, CEE
-- End PCT
 
natiels said:
I was wondering that too. My theory was that you had pretty high test because you were taking Ultra Hot and when the AI effects of the HOT wore off your test started aromatizing to estro. Just a theory tho, i am guessing someone else with more knowledge might have a better answer.
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That would be my take as well. Those test numbers were really high..hats off to UH...but our bodies know what's up. Your ambient levels of aromatase are quickly going to take down the "excess" test and estrodiol is one of the early byproducts.
 
bioman said:
That would be my take as well. Those test numbers were really high..hats off to UH...but our bodies know what's up. Your ambient levels of aromatase are quickly going to take down the "excess" test and estrodiol is one of the early byproducts.
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How long usually does it take for the estradiol to be cleared, being that my test is now only 106ng/dl, there should not be any more aromatization possible, correct?
 
The high ediol and the concommitant low test would lead me to believe that your converting Natural test to ediol in response to the exogenous anabolic. Don't freak out, but start taking something to stop the CONVERSION of test to ediol. Nolva WILL NOT stop test from converting to ediol, it merely blocks the action of ediol on certain receptor sites. Nolva WILL also NOT lower estrogen levels as it is a competetive inhibitor as apposed to an AI. I would say UH for the rest of your cycle and then Nolva or clomid with UH for post cycle. In the future it would be wise to take longer breaks between cycles. You should always give your body a chance to recover after ANY hormonal manipulation before begining a new "cycle."
 
bump to dungeon's comments. dont start chopping and changing pct again. stick with the nolva throw in some UH and finish a solid pct then take a LONG break.
 
Dungeon1 said:
The high ediol and the concommitant low test would lead me to believe that your converting Natural test to ediol in response to the exogenous anabolic. Don't freak out, but start taking something to stop the CONVERSION of test to ediol. Nolva WILL NOT stop test from converting to ediol, it merely blocks the action of ediol on certain receptor sites. Nolva WILL also NOT lower estrogen levels as it is a competetive inhibitor as apposed to an AI. I would say UH for the rest of your cycle and then Nolva or clomid with UH for post cycle. In the future it would be wise to take longer breaks between cycles. You should always give your body a chance to recover after ANY hormonal manipulation before begining a new "cycle."
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So I guess I'll do my second PCT option then, correct? Man, this is a tough lesson to learn. It's just too bad I had to learn the hard way. From now on I'll always finish PCT, and wait at least another whole cycle duration before starting anything new (including PCT). I guess I just really got carried away and became severly impatient with myself. The main reason for wanting to get so big so fast stems from a relationship issue I had a few years back... eh.
 
Another post about people taking compounds that are not supposed to aromatise and having blood work done only to find out that there estrodiol levels are off the charts. I have seen a few of these in the last few days. It is really disturbing to say the least. At least if I take Halotestin or other androgens that have been around for a while and are not supposed to aromatise we have lots of peoples past blood work to back it up.
 
bioman said:
That would be my take as well. Those test numbers were really high..hats off to UH...but our bodies know what's up. Your ambient levels of aromatase are quickly going to take down the "excess" test and estrodiol is one of the early byproducts.
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So then if you take an anti e for say 2 months then you come off the same thing happens as in a regular cycle so there really is no point in trying to boost test with anti-e. As in the crash would probably negate any gains you made off of a weak anti estrogen induced anabolic state? And since anti e caused the e how do you combat that? Stay on anti e forever? :blink:
 
Anarchy939 said:
I guess its just a chance we all take when we insert these newly-released substances into out bodies without enough people having gone through trial and error. If I do cycle again I probably will take the next step to AAS and run some Cyp or something, this way I at least know what's to be expected.

Sorry guys for the wuss attitude and dramatization.
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no disrespect, but you havent been able to cope with the sides of a full ph cycle i wouldnt go to the next step and use aas. seems illogical to me.
 
onshow said:
no disrespect, but you havent been able to cope with the sides of a full ph cycle i wouldnt go to the next step and use aas. seems illogical to me.
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you are correct. I deleted that post, thinking twice about exactly what I was saying.
 
onshow said:
no disrespect, but you havent been able to cope with the sides of a full ph cycle i wouldnt go to the next step and use aas. seems illogical to me.
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I really think this mindset is part of the problem. People should be approaching these compounds with as much caution as they would approach an AAS cycle because many of these new compounds are AAS and just like any of the illegal compounds they have varying side effects, safety profiles, and degrees of HPTA suppression. They also have the ability, like any AAS, to really screw up your system for a while if you do not take proper post cycle therapy.

These compounds should be viewed as legal alternatives not side effect free and friendly alternatives.
 
While Nolvadex is a SERM and as such will only block estrogen at receptor sites in breast tissue, he should be using it in his PCT to prevent gyno. As mentioned, an AI like Arimidex can be used here but dosing is tricky. If he doesn't dose it correctly, he might run into more problems post PCT.

So perhaps he should do a 40/30/20/10 with the Nolvadex and something to the tune of 0.50/0.25/0.125/0.0625 with Arimidex. To achieve those decimal doses, he can pop 1/2 pill everyday for the first week, 1/4 pill everyday for the second week, then take 1/4 pill every other day for the third week, and 1/4 pill twice a week for the last week.

I'm not sure about UH but if it's a suicide inhibitor, I would choose the Arimidex instead. The suicide inhibitors will lead to higher upregulation after discontinuation.

J.
 
wrong

well what your supposed to go by is a least as much time "on"as "off"but if you think about it if you do a 5 week cycle then you do 5 weeks of pct with somthing like ultra hot [a hormonal product?]Then you should stay "off" for 10 weeks?I dont think most would do this with all the new "goodies" out there and thats where the problem lies.I emailed someone at ALRI and they said 4 weeks after pct is good enough to start a new cycle.Also was wondering if stagering pct like you would with a thyroid med would have a better effect with estrogen?:think:
 
SwingGuru said:
Nolva is good. Anthing to get the estradiol down and the T up. I'd bag the current cycle and get my boys back. Who knows much about this LMG anyway? It seems to be working with users for sure, but at what cost?
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are there some negatives?
 
no disrespect to anyone but you have one of the most knowledgeable people in the industry on this board that has written one of the best books out today "building the perfect beast"... I suggest you read the book and learn about action/reaction and what your body does in response to AAS that you put in your body. this will answer a lot of your questions about the increased level of estrogen, and other things your body does to combat the changes in your body's hormonal balance.....
there is soooooo much knowledge on this board.. you really need to take advantage of it. Thats why I love this board like a fat kid loves cake..LOL and the fact that the head clown in charge don't take no bullshit off of anyone.
 
My guess is if you do 5 weeks on, then 5 weeks PCT and then 10 weeks off, you will be completly normal homonal wise, but will look essentially the same as when you started.

For me, I dont mind using stuff like this in the spring/summer when Im out and about with no shirt, doing cycles to PCT back and forth with then 2 weeks of nothing before starting up again, and then in the fall/winter I dont take anything, eat more, gain some weight, cut back on training, and let myself go slightly. I think thats enough to be 100% clean when spring starts again.
 
KD1 said:
My guess is if you do 5 weeks on, then 5 weeks PCT and then 10 weeks off, you will be completly normal homonal wise, but will look essentially the same as when you started.

For me, I dont mind using stuff like this in the spring/summer when Im out and about with no shirt, doing cycles to PCT back and forth with then 2 weeks of nothing before starting up again, and then in the fall/winter I dont take anything, eat more, gain some weight, cut back on training, and let myself go slightly. I think thats enough to be 100% clean when spring starts again.
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if that works for you great,but the guy who wrote the post was wondering why his estrogen levels where so high.He was starting a new cycle right after pct.I dont know if you get blood work done but ALRI recomends at least waiting 4 weeks after pct to start new cycle
 
Here are some Blood Results drawn the last day of my cycle, after adding Ultra HOT into the mix for 1 week:

Total Test: 932ng/dl (241-827)
Free Test: 34 (9.5-43)
LH: 1.2 (2-18)
FSH: 1.6 (1.4-8.7)
Estradiol: 29 (21-50)


These are outstanding results IMHO.. especially for being drawn the last day of my Max/Ergo cycle of 4 weeks. I am on day 5 of PCT at the moment with about 3 days worth of HOT left, from which I'll transition over to Novedex XT until I get some of the Ultra "Hotter," lol.

I gained ~12lbs in the 4 weeks, although the majority came in the first 2.
 
Anarchy939 said:
Here are some Blood Results drawn the last day of my cycle, after adding Ultra HOT into the mix for 1 week:

Total Test: 932ng/dl (241-827)
Free Test: 34 (9.5-43)
LH: 1.2 (2-18)
FSH: 1.6 (1.4-8.7)
Estradiol: 29 (21-50)


These are outstanding results IMHO.. especially for being drawn the last day of my Max/Ergo cycle of 4 weeks. I am on day 5 of PCT at the moment with about 3 days worth of HOT left, from which I'll transition over to Novedex XT until I get some of the Ultra "Hotter," lol.

I gained ~12lbs in the 4 weeks, although the majority came in the first 2.
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Now that's what I'm talkin' about. Great cycle, and the boys are functioning.
 
SwingGuru said:
Now that's what I'm talkin' about. Great cycle, and the boys are functioning.
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Yeah, what a relief. I'm taking a loooong break from everything but the basics to get my body used to functioning normally again. I am definately going to be anxious to start up again, but in a way I am digging going natty again.
 
Anarchy939 said:
Here are some Blood Results drawn the last day of my cycle, after adding Ultra HOT into the mix for 1 week:

Total Test: 932ng/dl (241-827)
Free Test: 34 (9.5-43)
LH: 1.2 (2-18)
FSH: 1.6 (1.4-8.7)
Estradiol: 29 (21-50)


These are outstanding results IMHO.. especially for being drawn the last day of my Max/Ergo cycle of 4 weeks. I am on day 5 of PCT at the moment with about 3 days worth of HOT left, from which I'll transition over to Novedex XT until I get some of the Ultra "Hotter," lol.

I gained ~12lbs in the 4 weeks, although the majority came in the first 2.
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isn't that amazing? HOT seems to have boosted your test despite competing with the Max which was shutting you down?

how is this possible?

I'm so confused.....

oh and one more thing, were on Max or Ergomax?
 
skull said:
I dont know if you get blood work done but ALRI recomends at least waiting 4 weeks after pct to start new cycle
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From their site..
" 4-8 weeks of continuous Max LMG™ administration provides good results. And yes, I do suggest the use ofInvalid Link Removed for 4-6 weeks before repeating"

I dont see anywhere that suggests 4 weeks after PCT. Regardless Im not suffering the libido issues much if any, my boys regain size quickly, and Ive only been doing 28 day cycles. So 2 weeks of clean/clear after PCT seems to be reasonable for me.
 
I'm not sure on this one but please look at this theory and tell me if it's right or wrong:

You get nice test-levels from the Ultra Hot. This is good in your PCT cause you support the new gained mass with a good test-level, as opposed to a shutdown,no test containing body.

BUT, once this Ultra Hot is discontinued, your test will drop. UH is just an artificial way of getting more test. It doesn't mean your own balls are better yet at making test. So you may 'think' you are recovered, but you are not cause it's the artificial state UH gave you and not your own balls that started working good again.

So blood numbers only mean something recovery-wise when they show normal test levels still being held up, after discontinuing the UH. Wich means your balls started working on their own again, not needing UH to get good test levels.

So UH would be kind of a bridge to keep good test levels in your body, untill your balls decide to get working again on their own.

>Is this theory good or where is it flawed? Trying to understand how all this works.
 
I believe that UH along with most PCT protocols are meant to supress Estrogen as well as stimute your balls to get back quicker. This is not artificial Test....You were taking artificial test, UH helps you rebound from this by stimulating test production to get the good ole boys back. UH is for PCT, its not an artificial source of test, that would defeat the purpose of PCT.
 
I feel based on experience the Ultra HOT provides an artificial form of test, but the Androgen Feedback loop is blocked and the body still senses the need for LH production, causing LH to increase steadily while test levels remain consistant.
 
Gothca, thanks for the info! Will be starting UH in 3 weeks, only got one bottle so they better get U Hotter out soon!
 
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