So nobody has topical test??

brofessorx

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So why is this thread 3 pages long? it doesn’t seem like any progress has been made in this discussion, and the op’s question was answered already.
 
~Vision~

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So why is this thread 3 pages long? it doesn’t seem like any progress has been made in this discussion, and the op’s question was answered already.
when questions start lingering into pages and pages that's some pretty good stuff, I know the topic probably got railroaded but a lot of guys made some pretty valid points from personal opinions and experience.. there's a lot of take-home notes for the readers, by looking at things from multiple perspectives..I'm sure this topic will help out readers in the future..
 
Smont

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Well, I can agree with that. But if you're using test, you'll get those benefits anyway. I don't think there's any reason to add additional estrogen to the cycle, that seems like a recipe for gyno.
Your misunderstanding what there talking about. There is zero testosterone in the stack. It's 1 andro and epiandro. When they say test base. There not talking about actually testosterone. There talking about something to use in place of testosterone to act like a test base to the cycle.

Over the years of people being too scared to pin test and too lazy to try to actually score themselves some test or moral reasons or whatever, people started to make up all these words and terms to justify there cycles without using injectable testosterone. These terms are now second nature to most of us. When we talk test base to a cycle were just referring to things other then testosterone that cover all the bases for well being, libido, muscle growth ect.
 
Smont

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So why is this thread 3 pages long? it doesn’t seem like any progress has been made in this discussion, and the op’s question was answered already.
Because everyone loved to drag the **** out of a thread and change topics 47 times
 

Hilltern

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This was an excellent read.

Note from the peanut gallery: I don’t think personal anecdotes and studies have to necessarily conflict. Science is science. There is a reason we experience what we do, even if it doesn’t line up with some theories out there. That being said, I think it’s worthwhile to discuss the science behind our experiences rather than dismiss the effort. Just my $.02.

Question for you OGs re test bases: Obviously taking harsher non-aromatizing compounds should have a test base but what about much milder compounds? If you’re just running 1-andro or epiandro or androsterone would you need one? Is there any sort of consensus as to when you start needing one (ie when you’re taking too much/too strong of a non-aromatizing compound)?
 
nostrum420

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This was an excellent read.

Note from the peanut gallery: I don’t think personal anecdotes and studies have to necessarily conflict. Science is science. There is a reason we experience what we do, even if it doesn’t line up with some theories out there. That being said, I think it’s worthwhile to discuss the science behind our experiences rather than dismiss the effort. Just my $.02.

Question for you OGs re test bases: Obviously taking harsher non-aromatizing compounds should have a test base but what about much milder compounds? If you’re just running 1-andro or epiandro or androsterone would you need one? Is there any sort of consensus as to when you start needing one (ie when you’re taking too much/too strong of a non-aromatizing compound)?
This is the internet, there's no consensus on anything.
 
StarScream66

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Question for you OGs re test bases: Obviously taking harsher non-aromatizing compounds should have a test base but what about much milder compounds? If you’re just running 1-andro or epiandro or androsterone would you need one? Is there any sort of consensus as to when you start needing one (ie when you’re taking too much/too strong of a non-aromatizing compound)?
I'm not 100% clear what you're asking here. When you say test base, do you mean testosterone without an ester attached? Or a transdermal formula you want to add some type of PH/DS too?

I always keep some Nolvadex on hand during a cycle just as a preventative measure increase I start getting sensitive/itchy/puffy/nips or excessive bloat. I don't know about epi-andro or androsterone, but 1-andro (1DHEA?) shouldn't aromatize.
 
Hyde

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This is the internet, there's no consensus on anything.
^This.

Question for you OGs re test bases: Obviously taking harsher non-aromatizing compounds should have a test base but what about much milder compounds? If you’re just running 1-andro or epiandro or androsterone would you need one? Is there any sort of consensus as to when you start needing one (ie when you’re taking too much/too strong of a non-aromatizing compound)?
The concept of a “test base” comes from the idea that most anabolic cycles would benefit from at least a replacement dose of testosterone. But many PH/DS users do not wish to inject, or are concerned with using controlled substances (like in America) without prescriptions. SO the next best thing is taking things that HELP provide what they will be otherwise lacking when they take a designer compound and become suppressed. If you take something like DMZ your natural test will be suppressed, and without testosterone you will suffer things like erectile dysfunction and lethargy.

Taking things that convert to DHT and/or estrogen can help ameliorate these issues to a degree (you will want both). DHEA, Pregnenolone, Epiandrosterone, 4-Andro, Androsterone, 3AD, Trestolone are all legal otc/grey market compounds that can help keep things working somewhat. All are pretty user friendly, except trestolone (one of the most serious anabolics there is, besides trenbolone).

Having used all but Trest, I can say none of them are nearly as good or easy to use as actual testosterone. BUT they are all legal, and including one or two of them in a cycle is definitely better than using the DMZ, etc solo.
 
thebigt

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^This.



The concept of a “test base” comes from the idea that most anabolic cycles would benefit from at least a replacement dose of testosterone. But many PH/DS users do not wish to inject, or are concerned with using controlled substances (like in America) without prescriptions. SO the next best thing is taking things that HELP provide what they will be otherwise lacking when they take a designer compound and become suppressed. If you take something like DMZ your natural test will be suppressed, and without testosterone you will suffer things like erectile dysfunction and lethargy.

Taking things that convert to DHT and/or estrogen can help ameliorate these issues to a degree (you will want both). DHEA, Pregnenolone, Epiandrosterone, 4-Andro, Androsterone, 3AD, Trestolone are all legal otc/grey market compounds that can help keep things working somewhat. All are pretty user friendly, except trestolone (one of the most serious anabolics there is, besides trenbolone).

Having used all but Trest, I can say none of them are nearly as good or easy to use as actual testosterone. BUT they are all legal, and including one or two of them in a cycle is definitely better than using the DMZ, etc solo.
great answer...1andro is notorious for causing lethargy and loss of libido, many run dermacrine with it-this is why @delsolrob included dhea/preg in icon one.
 
Smont

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great answer...1andro is notorious for causing lethargy and loss of libido, many run dermacrine with it-this is why @delsolrob included dhea/preg in icon one.
I've heard of multiple ppl on trt that tried 1 andro and the trt dose was not enough
 
thebigt

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I've heard of multiple ppl on trt that tried 1 andro and the trt dose was not enough
that was my reason for not trying it before...except for some lethargy around 5th week my run of icon one was very productive, gained 7lbs of quality muscle and took a notch out of belt.
 

Hilltern

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Wouldn’t a DHT based compound throw your estrogen:testosterone ratio out of whack (at high enough dosages at least) though and require a test base for the subsequent estrogen conversion so as to not feel low estrogen sides?
 
nostrum420

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Wouldn’t a DHT based compound throw your estrogen:testosterone ratio out of whack (at high enough dosages at least) though and require a test base for the subsequent estrogen conversion so as to not feel low estrogen sides?
Theoretically this is possible, yes, depending on the compound and the dose.
 

Hilltern

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Theoretically this is possible, yes, depending on the compound and the dose.
Is there any way to gauge whether you’d be treading into that danger zone without just finding out the hard way (and if you’re smart having something to use as a base as soon as low estrogen sides appear)?
 
nostrum420

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Is there any way to gauge whether you’d be treading into that danger zone without just finding out the hard way (and if you’re smart having something to use as a base as soon as low estrogen sides appear)?
Typically people start to get some mild arthralgia as E2 drops too low.
 
Hyde

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Is there any way to gauge whether you’d be treading into that danger zone without just finding out the hard way (and if you’re smart having something to use as a base as soon as low estrogen sides appear)?
Bottle of 50mg DHEA pills from any grocer/supermarket/Amazon and you’re set to handle low estrogen. You can use Dermacrine if you prefer transdermals or want a more sustained release.

Epiandro is useful if you want more DHT (libido, anti-gyno, strength boost) but it’s crap orally IMO unless you want it as a preWO because it has such a short half-life. You got 2 real hours of energy and the magic is gone. Transdermal preparations like Apex Alchemy makes will last much longer. You can combine it with pills depending on your work day, but I wouldn’t do pills solo for it.

4-Andro is going to do exactly what DHEA will for you on a practical level, but a bit more performance-minded. Would not recommend unless money is no option.

3AD isn’t a DHT, but it’s dry and gives me energy and makes my pecker work better. Plain as I can say it. A noteworthy addition to a cycle. Like a Proviron that doesn’t last as long and makes you hold some extra glycogen.
 
Hyde

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@Hyde better pre-workout ‘boost’ EpiAndro or 3AD ?
I hate my drugs preWO. Tends to elevate BP & pulse unproductively for me. But to that end, epiandro is much more in your face. That’s where the oral shines. Take that 30 min before training and whoosh.
 
Rad83

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I hate my drugs preWO. Tends to elevate BP & pulse unproductively for me. But to that end, epiandro is much more in your face. That’s where the oral shines. Take that 30 min before training and whoosh.
I’ve done that with EpiAndro and agree!

Thought maybe 3AD would work similarly or better.
 
Hyde

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What is 3AD ?
A dry mild non-methyl anabolic. Not many companies carry it. Gainbusters Swole Patrol is on sale for 25% off still with code HOARD. Elite Formulations also has it.

I’ve done that with EpiAndro and agree!

Thought maybe 3AD would work similarly or better.
I liked 3AD much better - felt like it sustained me for hours like a transdermal epiandrosterone would. Which I liked much better than oral epiandro, which I have unfortunately used many times.
 

Hilltern

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Bottle of 50mg DHEA pills from any grocer/supermarket/Amazon and you’re set to handle low estrogen. You can use Dermacrine if you prefer transdermals or want a more sustained release.

Epiandro is useful if you want more DHT (libido, anti-gyno, strength boost) but it’s crap orally IMO unless you want it as a preWO because it has such a short half-life. You got 2 real hours of energy and the magic is gone. Transdermal preparations like Apex Alchemy makes will last much longer. You can combine it with pills depending on your work day, but I wouldn’t do pills solo for it.

4-Andro is going to do exactly what DHEA will for you on a practical level, but a bit more performance-minded. Would not recommend unless money is no option.

3AD isn’t a DHT, but it’s dry and gives me energy and makes my pecker work better. Plain as I can say it. A noteworthy addition to a cycle. Like a Proviron that doesn’t last as long and makes you hold some extra glycogen.
Thanks bro. I was partially asking because I picked up some ultra-hard (the new epiandro and androsterone TD from Icon) to run with epiandro pwo and 11-keto td but also I’m genuinely interested in the sciencey part. I Wasn’t sure if I was teetering into the danger zone there.
 
thebigt

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Thanks bro. I was partially asking because I picked up some ultra-hard (the new epiandro and androsterone TD from Icon) to run with epiandro pwo and 11-keto td but also I’m genuinely interested in the sciencey part. I Wasn’t sure if I was teetering into the danger zone there.
i think you will be very pleased with Ultrao Hard...and thank you for your purchase...

let us know what you think....
 
Hyde

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Thanks bro. I was partially asking because I picked up some ultra-hard (the new epiandro and androsterone TD from Icon) to run with epiandro pwo and 11-keto td but also I’m genuinely interested in the sciencey part. I Wasn’t sure if I was teetering into the danger zone there.
Throw a few DHEA pills in there, maybe eod or even daily, and you’ll feel better than without. Higher your bodyfat the less you will probably need.
 
Iwilleattuna

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A dry mild non-methyl anabolic. Not many companies carry it. Gainbusters Swole Patrol is on sale for 25% off still with code HOARD. Elite Formulations also has it.



I liked 3AD much better - felt like it sustained me for hours like a transdermal epiandrosterone would. Which I liked much better than oral epiandro, which I have unfortunately used many times.
hm, can’t find a lot on it , but seems cool.

pct required? Thanks for your knowledge
 

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Sourcing test is my issue. Would love a little help getting in the right direction
theres no source talk here. There are other boards out there that allow source talk. Some even have vetted sponsor sources with their own subforums listed right on the forum. A little googling for bodybuilding and steroid forums should help you find what you need.
 
Smont

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theres no source talk here. There are other boards out there that allow source talk. Some even have vetted sponsor sources with their own subforums listed right on the forum. A little googling for bodybuilding and steroid forums should help you find what you need.
Ya what he said, it's a lot easier then you think too.
 
JKVol

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theres no source talk here. There are other boards out there that allow source talk. Some even have vetted sponsor sources with their own subforums listed right on the forum. A little googling for bodybuilding and steroid forums should help you find what you need.
I understand we cannot publicity talk sources. The problem for me with google or searching other boards is I have no idea who to trust.
 
Hyde

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hm, can’t find a lot on it , but seems cool.

pct required? Thanks for your knowledge
If it’s a hormone, always. Except for you. Being hypogonadal, I doubt a course of Nolva will make a difference

I understand we cannot publicity talk sources. The problem for me with google or searching other boards is I have no idea who to trust.
Also a problem you can generally solve with Google! Just look for reviews of that source NOT on the board in question.
 
JKVol

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If it’s a hormone, always. Except for you. Being hypogonadal, I doubt a course of Nolva will make a difference



Also a problem you can generally solve with Google! Just look for reviews of that source NOT on the board in question.
On google, for every one legit review you have 10 that’s just click bait. I just don’t trust it.
 
Iwilleattuna

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If it’s a hormone, always. Except for you. Being hypogonadal, I doubt a course of Nolva will make a difference



Also a problem you can generally solve with Google! Just look for reviews of that source NOT on the board in question.
lulz, I’m always like; “is this suppressive?” When I’m already suppressed naturally lol
 
nostrum420

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None of it was made from anything having to do with elephants.

Once upon a time, in order to try to claim DSHEA compliance, "phera" was said to have been an elephant pheromone. 2-DHEA is loosely structurally related to phera
 
Hyde

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Did anyone ever get anything from 2-DHEA? I remember OL selling it all off for $20/bottle and never heard of any cycles with it really.
 
Iwilleattuna

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Did anyone ever get anything from 2-DHEA? I remember OL selling it all off for $20/bottle and never heard of any cycles with it really.
I’d like to know too

what’s your stance on 1,4 Andro ? Which converts to bold ?
 
Iwilleattuna

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Well considering I used a bunch of bottles of boldione over 8 weeks and noticed basically nothing, I would expect 1,4 Andro to similarly be hot garbage.
😂😂😂😂😂 oh brutalll that made me laugh
 
Iwilleattuna

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Sometimes you get weird responders who get insane results off of these rare/mild compounds , though . Just have to pray youre one of the few if you buy one
 
thebigt

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Sometimes you get weird responders who get insane results off of these rare/mild compounds , though . Just have to pray youre one of the few if you buy one
i've got some alpha four on the way courtesy of iconicformulations...plus a bottle of ultra epi that i bought on my own dime...personally i respond VERY well to 4-andro, one of the best feel good supps i have tried. i only get 100mg test cyp weekly for my trt and running 4-andro is like running a blast cycle for me. last time i ran 4-andro my test doubled to 1200.

maybe i am a ubber responder, but make no mistake-i love 4-andro!!! very happy to see iconicformulations adding a 4-andro product to line up!!!
 
brofessorx

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I thought 2 - dhea was synthesized from elephants?
🤨
None of it was made from anything having to do with elephants.

Once upon a time, in order to try to claim DSHEA compliance, "phera" was said to have been an elephant pheromone. 2-DHEA is loosely structurally related to phera
It was a joke....😑
 
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