I want to start this multi-quote off by saying that I appreciate everyone's opinions on the subject. My reply here isn't to make light of anyone's, because I truly appreciate the varying points of view. I'm just replying with an overall take on it and my own opinions based off of a couple of years of research on mushrooms.
For context, I've researched them since pre-Covid and anyone that knows me knows that I read and research this type of stuff not just because its my job, but also because its one of my most passionate hobbies.
Use cordyceps currently, I’ve steered away from lions mane due to what I’ve read about it’s interaction with testosterone/dht.
I would be very interested in a multi shroom blend but without the addition of lions mane
I appreciate your insight and opinion on this.
Any multi-mushroom product that we do would include Lion's Mane because overall that's one of the main mushrooms that people are looking for.
As for the possible issues that you're talking about, as you said yourself, its not scientifically validated but more of people's opinions from personal experience on the subject.
This is where I feel context is very important - in that most of the people (actually all) that I've ever seen say that happened with them were doing what I would consider to be high doses of Lion's Mane. (2 to 3 grams per day).
The dosage that I have planned for this product would be 500 to 1,000 mg. per day; so it wouldn't be in the range where people commonly report those issues anyway.
But my reason for the dosage being lower isn't even that, its to be able to give a good efficient dose of the different mushrooms without overdoing it and also I worry more about the potential lethargy with Lion's Mane at higher dosages.
Do you have any actual sources that back up these claims? Anecdotal reports can be helpful, but I feel like I can never find any good actual research on why people feel so strongly on this.
I've never seen any actual studies showing that Lion's Mane can have a negative impact on testosterone. I've seen studies showing that it can potentially have positive benefits on testosterone, but honestly I'm not sold on the idea that it will increase or decrease it.
Even the few anecdotal things I've seen where people posted bloodwork saying that their testosterone was low from Lion's Mane (they were all dosing very high), I've never seen a fair and accurate comparison. Like if someone gets their test levels checked and they are low and they don't have a baseline from before they started, they really have no way of knowing if any ingredient did that. And I think the symptoms some attribute to Lion's Mane in that sense may not be coming from low test as much as other methods of action.
I've said for years - back when Lion's Mane was being promoted as the end all be all greatest thing in the world - that mega dosing wasn't a good idea for a lot of people because some people (myself included) feel like crap at too high of a dosing on it. And bc of my endocrine condition, I probably get bloodwork done more than 99.9% of the population and it never affected those numbers, but at 2 grams+ per day, it makes me feel like a lethargic zombie.
Ok that’s what I figured. That’s fine I guess, but Reddit users in those subreddits always seem to be suffering from something regardless of what they use so I’d just prefer something a little more concrete for why.
In general if someone uses something and it makes them feel bad that’s plenty reason to avoid. Just not sure it’s worth basing firm conclusions off of, for myself personally, when there’s anecdotal reports of the opposite as well and no actual hard evidence.
But I understand everyone will use different methods to arrive at how they decide what to use, I was just wondering if I’d missed anything in particular.
I agree on your overall thoughts on Reddit. So many things on there get blown out of proportion and I sense that a lot of people just agree and go with whatever other people are saying.
I was replying post by post before I read this one from you, and I agree - its like I posted above, some people I do think LM makes them feel like crap at higher doses, but that doesn't necessarily mean its from affecting test levels.
Totally hear you, would I prefer for the conclusion to be arrived at in a data driven manner, 100%
however i also work in marketing, and am aware that perception is reality. We actually use Reddit as a form of market research in developing ad copy due to people having the ability to speak truly about their pain points for X,Y,Z product and do so in an anonymous way (typically allowing for more free expression)
as a more educated consumer I would be able to see through the noise if there was in fact a study that said there was no impact to DHT but that I am also unable to source
That's kind of one of those tricky situations - because there's no logical reasoning that I know of that it would cause a negative impact on DHT so therefore, its something that I'm not sure has been researched extensively.
I think that Lion's Mane really is one of those that works differently for different people; and that people got too carried away in trying to mega dose it to begin with.
The different response for people is why we never used it in Focus XT. When it first got popular, everyone was asking if we were going to put it in Focus XT and I never would.
I don't know about Reddit's nootropic section, but the PED section is a farce.
There is so much misinformation and agenda posting in that section on there that I honestly cannot even make myself read it. I've seriously tried and a lot of it is almost like a cult in the sense that if a well-known member says it, it becomes like a blind truth that many believe no matter what.
I’ll add my 100% anecdotal, n=1, completely non-scientific thoughts:
I was using a blend of fruiting body mushrooms, which included Lion’s Mane, at around 2-3g in total. After a few weeks, I did feel what I thought was fatigue and low energy levels set in. After lowering the dose to ~1g (maybe 1.5g), the issues went away.
In contrast, I’ve used Peak02 at 4g a day for an extended period and never experienced these issues.
Now, can the fruiting body mushroom blend explain my low energy and fatigue due to Lions Mane lowering DHT? Ehh, maybe, but I kinda doubt it. I think it was diet/training/personal-life stress-related. So many factors can drive energy levels.
Basically, without blood work, I wouldn’t feel confident saying Lions Mane lowered my DHT to the point it was impacting energy/vitality.
Don’t get me wrong, studies are great, but we tend to hone in on group level statistics. For example, if you and I are in an N=2 study and Lions Mane lowered your DHT by 20%, and mine didn’t change, you might see it reported out that participants saw on average a 10% decrease in DHT. This is clearly a very made up, and egregious example, but just wanted to add that
What you wrote about dosing lines up with what I mentioned above and what I've been saying for years - that some people get way too carried away with what they think the dose on Lion's Mane needs to be.
And same, I love PEAK02.
I think that the method of action by which it makes some feel lethargic at high doses isn't related to test/DHT imo.
But there are studies showing that lions mane raises testosterone and enhances libido......
I think its one of those things where a lot of people jump to a conclusion that because high doses makes them lethargic that it must be hormonal when its a good chance it could be a different moa completely.