Slingshot thoughts

[Dustin07]

@Hyde @SkRaw85 @MrKleen73

Thought I'd ask here instead of cluttering everyone's threads. What are your thoughts on the slingshot in terms of what it does, when to use it, etc.?

I've only used mine twice now. Once with barbell, once with DB.
After my BB session, the next session I was amazed at how I seemed to snap the barbell up so much faster without it, as if I was wearing it.

After my DB session I was blown away by how different parts of my arms and shoulders were completely exhausted. Forearms got a massive workout both times, but with the DB's I noticed crazy work on my triceps and even parts of my shoulders. Nothing bad, just new stimulus.

I found an article on online that suggested the slingshot has nearly similar results to using chains, but doesn't activate your triceps. I found that contradictory to my experience last night with DB's. my triceps were so smoked I couldn't do all my normal tricep work after.

 

[Hyde]

It definitely hits your triceps. Whoever wrote that lifting more weight or volume in pressing wouldn’t activate your triceps is a….well, nvm.

It takes a lot off your pecs and shoulders, and really deloads the bottom of the press. It also stores more kinetic energy even using the same raw weights, so the faster you lower and reverse the more pop you’ll get from one.

I know guys on this board and in real life with bad shoulders who do most of their benching in one now, because it lets them train something they enjoy with less/no pain.

For powerlifting, you can use it as an accessory strength builder for 2-4 weeks after your main raw work sets (either to do more weight or reps at same weight), or to keep the weights up a little more/get more support in weeks out of a bench shirt if you are in an equipped training block. The Lilliebridges wrote about using slingshots or board work after their raw work on their heavy days, and they alternated heavy & light weekly on bench day. So they do raw work weekly, but after the heavy raw day more work would be done in a slanger working up further.

Different specific products do tend to work/feel differently. The Titan Ram series is more like a traditional bench shirt in the way it supports - pretty different from the Slingshot products. And traditional shirts are different than the new band shirts, and I think Bench Daddy’s are more like the band models.

Slingshot/Phoenix style products are super intuitive. Many people will be too weak to even touch in a Ram, or strong enough at the top end to get as much out of them.

I get about 10% out of a slanger, as a raw guy. I know another raw guy (also with long arms) who gets almost 20% though, but he trains it way more.

 

[Dustin07]

So my current approach would match what you suggest.. working to my heavy sets first, then throwing on the slingshot for added volume. Maybe I'll keep at that through January, then drop it for feb then.

not related to SS but you mentioned light week vs heavy week. Since I rotate between a DB day and a BB day do you consider those both to be "heavy days" since I'm running the 3-5 rep scheme, or would you consider the DB day to be lighter since it's usually around 80% of the BB weight. ?

 

[rob112]

I used to use my specifically to work the triceps really hard. I think the key is not just bouncing the weight.

 

[Dustin07]

I used to use my specifically to work the triceps really hard. I think the key is not just bouncing the weight.

Yeah man I've been loading up the hammer strength dips with 230-300+ lbs for sets after I wrap up DB bench and after yesterdays slingshot session I wanted to go 3 x 10 with only 180 added. I managed to add one more set of 10 at 230 only because Hyde says I have to. but aside from that... i was SPENT.

 

[Hyde]

So my current approach would match what you suggest.. working to my heavy sets first, then throwing on the slingshot for added volume. Maybe I'll keep at that through January, then drop it for feb then.

not related to SS but you mentioned light week vs heavy week. Since I rotate between a DB day and a BB day do you consider those both to be "heavy days" since I'm running the 3-5 rep scheme, or would you consider the DB day to be lighter since it's usually around 80% of the BB weight. ?

In my bropinion, sets of 3-5 on db work is too heavy & dangerous. And you know I’m serious about strength so it’s not like I’m trying to be a pansy here.

It’s probably not as big of a deal with the absolute weights you’re moving currently, and especially you being drug-free & keeping it to flat work, BUT it’s something I have seen a lot of pec tears and shoulder injuries over the years on juiced up guys. The big lack of stability compared to a barbell with dbs north of 150, especially on incline, tends to be a recipe for chaos.

In the Lilliebridge model it tends to be like 15% lighter than the previous heavy week, and for a single AMRAP. I have heard of Stan Efferding taking that week off barbell in the same system and working up on dbs, but again more like 8-20 reps incline. Not heavy triples.

So…yeah I think alternating DB weeks more towards hypertrophy ranges alternated with barbell strength work definitely can work. It worked for me last summer.

I used to use my specifically to work the triceps really hard. I think the key is not just bouncing the weight.

Agreed. You will lift a bit more that way, but it’s just heaving weight equipped for the sake of it. It’s not really building muscle well or strength in the specific way you would display it in any comp.

 

[JD284]

I liked it but the one i ordered was too small (XL), I must not have measured correctly. They wouldn't let me exchange it because i "used" it once. From what i experienced, it is helpful. I agree with all of the feedback above.. I traded it to @Afi140 for some stano plex - he may have some comments too.

 

[Smont]

Weight or what is heavy is relative. If the weight I'd so heavy that your doing 3-5 reps then it's a heavy day, doesn't matter if it's a 20lb db or a 200lb db. As much as I like to lift heavy, I gotta side with hyde, i do think using a db so heavy that it allows basically 6 reps or less is dangerous to the shoulders. One wrong move and you might be getting shoulder surgery, especially the over 35-40 crowd.

As far as the slingshot goes, I've never used one so IL leave now

 

[SkRaw85]

I’m primarily use mine to overload after my main working sets on max day. Just slams fluid into the tris, traps, tits and forearms. Then I feel my post training meal being directly shuttled to these zones lol. For real though.

 

[Smont]

@Hyde @SkRaw85 @MrKleen73

Thought I'd ask here instead of cluttering everyone's threads. What are your thoughts on the slingshot in terms of what it does, when to use it, etc.?

I've only used mine twice now. Once with barbell, once with DB.
After my BB session, the next session I was amazed at how I seemed to snap the barbell up so much faster without it, as if I was wearing it.

After my DB session I was blown away by how different parts of my arms and shoulders were completely exhausted. Forearms got a massive workout both times, but with the DB's I noticed crazy work on my triceps and even parts of my shoulders. Nothing bad, just new stimulus.

I found an article on online that suggested the slingshot has nearly similar results to using chains, but doesn't activate your triceps. I found that contradictory to my experience last night with DB's. my triceps were so smoked I couldn't do all my normal tricep work after.

Are you gonna track progress, IL follow along to see the gainzzzz

 

[MrKleen73]

Not much I can add to the rest of the comments except to echo most of them. Use DB's for hypertrophy, and strengthening stabilizers. Risk / Reward is unbalanced to the risk side with weights you can only do 3-5 reps with. Stick with 8+ in my opinion.

Triceps get trashed while using this. It is the only portion of the ROM where there is barely any assistance. I think they can be used like a board press to push more weight to the triceps when you keep the reps controlled. I always force myself to stabilize the weight in the bottom before pushing so I am not getting a big spring out of the bottom. That way momentum doesn't carry through to the triceps / lockout portion of the movement.

 

[Dustin07]

Are you gonna track progress, IL follow along to see the gainzzzz

yesssir of course!
Invalid Link Removed

In my bropinion, sets of 3-5 on db work is too heavy & dangerous. And you know I’m serious about strength so it’s not like I’m trying to be a pansy here.

It’s probably not as big of a deal with the absolute weights you’re moving currently, and especially you being drug-free & keeping it to flat work, BUT it’s something I have seen a lot of pec tears and shoulder injuries over the years on juiced up guys. The big lack of stability compared to a barbell with dbs north of 150, especially on incline, tends to be a recipe for chaos.

In the Lilliebridge model it tends to be like 15% lighter than the previous heavy week, and for a single AMRAP. I have heard of Stan Efferding taking that week off barbell in the same system and working up on dbs, but again more like 8-20 reps incline. Not heavy triples.

So…yeah I think alternating DB weeks more towards hypertrophy ranges alternated with barbell strength work definitely can work. It worked for me last summer.



Agreed. You will lift a bit more that way, but it’s just heaving weight equipped for the sake of it. It’s not really building muscle well or strength in the specific way you would display it in any comp.

Not much I can add to the rest of the comments except to echo most of them. Use DB's for hypertrophy, and strengthening stabilizers. Risk / Reward is unbalanced to the risk side with weights you can only do 3-5 reps with. Stick with 8+ in my opinion.

Triceps get trashed while using this. It is the only portion of the ROM where there is barely any assistance. I think they can be used like a board press to push more weight to the triceps when you keep the reps controlled. I always force myself to stabilize the weight in the bottom before pushing so I am not getting a big spring out of the bottom. That way momentum doesn't carry through to the triceps / lockout portion of the movement.

Noted! I have no problem with hypertrophy days and I think you guys make a good point here. since I have been working in my DB days for a while now I have a good idea of where to pick up and attempt some higher rep sets.

 

[Rocket3015]

I'm am going to have to dig mine out and start using it again!

 

[SkRaw85]

I'm am going to have to dig mine out and start using it again!

Going to have to start an AM slanger thread soon!

 

[Dustin07]

So I'm starting to think best use of the SS might be intentionally getting the 1-3 rep zone at 10%+ over current 1rm

Which is opposed to how I've been doing it at around 5-10% over training max for 3x5 etc

Which makes sense but I wanted to see how it felt before I truly overloaded and if I'm attempting reps at 300lbs vs my current 275/280lb max I need to make sure I have a decent spotter. I'll work on that.

I will see the effect of 3x5 at 255lbs with SS vs say 3x5 at 230lb or something without has been pretty cool, I can definitely feel the extra work in my arms and pecs.

I'm not exactly sure how this translates yet, but I can tell I'm getting new stimulus regardless.

 

[SkRaw85]

So I'm starting to think best use of the SS might be intentionally getting the 1-3 rep zone at 10%+ over current 1rm

Which is opposed to how I've been doing it at around 5-10% over training max for 3x5 etc

Which makes sense but I wanted to see how it felt before I truly overloaded and if I'm attempting reps at 300lbs vs my current 275/280lb max I need to make sure I have a decent spotter. I'll work on that.

I will see the effect of 3x5 at 255lbs with SS vs say 3x5 at 230lb or something without has been pretty cool, I can definitely feel the extra work in my arms and pecs.

I'm not exactly sure how this translates yet, but I can tell I'm getting new stimulus regardless.

I’ve always kept slingshot in the 1-3 range. Don’t even think I’ve ever gone to 4 reps honestly lol. It was effective for my means so I really didn’t try a higher rep range, and my bench 1RM kept creeping up

 

[Dustin07]

I’ve always kept slingshot in the 1-3 range. Don’t even think I’ve ever gone to 4 reps honestly lol. It was effective for my means so I really didn’t try a higher rep range, and my bench 1RM kept creeping up

I thought about giving my 1rm + 5lbs an attempt yesterday but since I was lifting with my 13yr old who is still new to it I figured I'd avoid risking failure lol. That said, I have been intentionally "getting stuck" at lower weights to have him learn how to spot me, he's almost ready

 

[Rocket3015]

I thought about giving my 1rm + 5lbs an attempt yesterday but since I was lifting with my 13yr old who is still new to it I figured I'd avoid risking failure lol. That said, I have been intentionally "getting stuck" at lower weights to have him learn how to spot me, he's almost ready

That is exciting !! I remember when I used to lift with my daughter !!

 

[SkRaw85]

I thought about giving my 1rm + 5lbs an attempt yesterday but since I was lifting with my 13yr old who is still new to it I figured I'd avoid risking failure lol. That said, I have been intentionally "getting stuck" at lower weights to have him learn how to spot me, he's almost ready

That’s awesome man! Teach them young and teach them right

 

[Dustin07]

That is exciting !! I remember when I used to lift with my daughter !!

Funny thing is i'm seeing his baby fat burn off between this and his wrestling season and I"m thinking boy we gotta put some meat on those bones

 

[Dustin07]

I was looking over Marks 4 week bench program.
To me it seems like the weights are low, and I'm sorta surprised that he's suggesting to use the slingshot at weights far below "overload" levels.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[SkRaw85]

I was looking over Marks 4 week bench program.
To me it seems like the weights are low, and I'm sorta surprised that he's suggesting to use the slingshot at weights far below "overload" levels.

Invalid Link Removed

That only for the ancestral supplement kids…..

 

[Dustin07]

That only for the ancestral supplement kids…..

So that was going to be my next question. I know many of the differences being natty vs on gear, but I mean really? Can you truly train at 75%, "overload" at only 80% when on a good cycle and somehow bam, knock out a PR? without truly overloading/straining?

 

[Dustin07]

That only for the ancestral supplement kids…..

How do you feel about training weight progression on SS vs raw? example:

last week I went 10 x 225lbs in SS.
this week I wanted to rep out, so I added 5lbs and did 230 x 10 in SS to finish up.
Any issue with continuing in that fashion in addition to my normal raw training?

Marks program seems bizarre to me in that you keep coming back at essentially the same %.
The whole reason I got the SS was to overload so today I benched 300 with it for a 1rm with my raw 1rm the past few months has been 275-280.

 

[MrKleen73]

How do you feel about training weight progression on SS vs raw? example:

last week I went 10 x 225lbs in SS.
this week I wanted to rep out, so I added 5lbs and did 230 x 10 in SS to finish up.
Any issue with continuing in that fashion in addition to my normal raw training?

Marks program seems bizarre to me in that you keep coming back at essentially the same %.
The whole reason I got the SS was to overload so today I benched 300 with it for a 1rm with my raw 1rm the past few months has been 275-280.

Good questions. I think progress is progress but there is systematic progress and then there is I am going to push as hard as i can everytime and hope to continue to make progress without hurting myself. This is based on systematic progress. You are adding 3-4 worksets you normally would not do and you increase the load each week in both raw and SS sets. As @Hyde will tell you a lot of new strength is built in the 80% range just doing volume and consistency. if you really want to know if it is effective test your single or triple then run through the program as written and see if you are able to beat your current when it is all said and done.

I have a bad habit and desire to push to almost failure regularly. It makes training fun, but also increases wear and tear that can get in the way of consistency. Following something like this is hard for me but the reality is this type of progression works and works over and over again. Since you want to increase your bench work it in and see how it works for you. You will probably come out stronger pound for pound in the end.

 

[Dustin07]

Good questions. I think progress is progress but there is systematic progress and then there is I am going to push as hard as i can everytime and hope to continue to make progress without hurting myself. This is based on systematic progress. You are adding 3-4 worksets you normally would not do and you increase the load each week in both raw and SS sets. As @Hyde will tell you a lot of new strength is built in the 80% range just doing volume and consistency. if you really want to know if it is effective test your single or triple then run through the program as written and see if you are able to beat your current when it is all said and done.

I have a bad habit and desire to push to almost failure regularly. It makes training fun, but also increases wear and tear that can get in the way of consistency. Following something like this is hard for me but the reality is this type of progression works and works over and over again. Since you want to increase your bench work it in and see how it works for you. You will probably come out stronger pound for pound in the end.

it's hard for me to drop (mentally) to 80% since that's only 224lbs of my stuck 280lb bench.
Last week I did 230 x 5 and then some higher low rep stuff. SS 285 x 1
This week I did 235 x 5, then lower rep stuff, then SS 295 x 1, 300 x 1.
Next week I'd like to continue with this approach
240 x 5, 305 x 1.

etc etc...

 

[MrKleen73]

it's hard for me to drop (mentally) to 80% since that's only 224lbs of my stuck 280lb bench.
Last week I did 230 x 5 and then some higher low rep stuff. SS 285 x 1
This week I did 235 x 5, then lower rep stuff, then SS 295 x 1, 300 x 1.
Next week I'd like to continue with this approach
240 x 5, 305 x 1.

etc etc...

I understand, but I still propose that your steady banging on singles which is bad for your CNS could definitely be a part of your plateau. Would a month of different training not be worth it if you hit 285, 290 or 300 in the end?

You are also going into overload by doing sets in the SS that you wouldn't be doing otherwise and at a level you couldn't do after your normal work sets without it. Although it isn't heavier it is more work and challenging the muscle more each week which will stimulate adaptation. Banging against the same number repeatedly is less likely to produce progress than backing off a little and regaining some momentum by building up your base more then working past your current plateau.

 

[Dustin07]

I understand, but I still propose that your steady banging on singles which is bad for your CNS could definitely be a part of your plateau. Would a month of different training not be worth it if you hit 285, 290 or 300 in the end?

You are also going into overload by doing sets in the SS that you wouldn't be doing otherwise and at a level you couldn't do after your normal work sets without it. Although it isn't heavier it is more work and challenging the muscle more each week which will stimulate adaptation. Banging against the same number repeatedly is less likely to produce progress than backing off a little and regaining some momentum by building up your base more then working past your current plateau.

fair enough, when you're right you're right. To be honest 1rm usually feel a lot less taxing than higher rep stuff but I know there is truth to what you're saying....

 

[SweetLou321]

I don't post often but lurk sometimes. I use to compete in powerlifting for reference, some members may remember me. Anyways I have benched 370 raw in comp and 535 multiply, both at 220 in the past.

The slingshot is an overload tool and unless you bench equipped I personally think its application as an assistance lift somewhat limited. It is not very common for raw benches to have trouble at lockout due to strength related issues. The slingshot helps at the bottom by taking some of the load off, altering the strength curve, it helps less at lockout, so it will help overload and strengthen this portion of a raw bench. Most lifters that miss at near lockout usually miss due to technical issues, the strength curve of a raw bench tends to favor the top end heavily.

The value I found with the slingshot for raw lifters is more so on the psychological side. Since strength is general specific, IMO there are a few main things we can do to get stronger; which are train the nervous system to better integrate the muscle we have to do the lift (lift heavier loads like 1-5 reps near 10 RPE), get bigger muscles so we have more tissue to integrate into the lift in the future to product more force (strength on the bench is a force production endeavor), improve our technical proficiency in the lift, and improve our mindset to actually commit to attempting challenging loads. I think the slingshot mainly helps a raw lifter with the last category. If you can bench heavier loads in it, then you can build mental momentum and confidence to try heavier loads raw.

Of course this is not universal. But if you stale on the bench near the bottom half and the main barrier is not mental, I have not seen many people find success with the slingshot. They would be better served doing close grip work, feet up work, and long-pauses usually as a raw lifter.

 

[Dustin07]

Of course this is not universal. But if you stale on the bench near the bottom half and the main barrier is not mental, I have not seen many people find success with the slingshot. They would be better served doing close grip work, feet up work, and long-pauses usually as a raw lifter.

Good stuff, thanks for sharing man! thought provoking

 

[Hyde]

So that was going to be my next question. I know many of the differences being natty vs on gear, but I mean really? Can you truly train at 75%, "overload" at only 80% when on a good cycle and somehow bam, knock out a PR? without truly overloading/straining?

Productive strength training is generally done in the 70-80% range. That’s the best intersection of barspeed/being light enough to practice skill well while still being heavy enough to transfer to maximal load.

The more advanced the lifter, the lighter you will be able to practice and still see carryover.

My only beef is there is no load OR total volume progression the first 3 weeks. If you have a 275 1RM currently, you would use 205 for the raw weight 3 weeks in a row and reps stay at 24-25 total. I would remedy this with a 5lb progression on weeks 2 & 3. Now volume stays static but there is a linear progression. 205,210,215,235 for raw weights. Doing essentially 5x5 around 75% is a very proven strength building range.

Regardless of whether you run it with my personal tweak or as written, I would expect a determined lifter to find some success.

A 5lb PR is always your initial goal. That is the attempt that matters, and THEN if you feel good to go for more that’s up to you.

 

[MrKleen73]

fair enough, when you're right you're right. To be honest 1rm usually feel a lot less taxing than higher rep stuff but I know there is truth to what you're saying....

Oh it is definitely less taxing on the overall system than doing singles but the effort it takes to do 1 maximal rep is brutal on the CNS, Similar to going to failure on your work sets, doing it too often can beat up your CNS.

 

[Dustin07]

OK I have some thinking and planning to do...

 

[WesleyInman]

I would add, just be very careful with it.

I know 2 very experienced veteran lifters who tore their Pecs while using the Slingshot.

 

[SweetLou321]

fair enough, when you're right you're right. To be honest 1rm usually feel a lot less taxing than higher rep stuff but I know there is truth to what you're saying....

This is gonna be variable as well. Central nervous system (CNS) technically is described as the CNS not allowing the muscles to fire at their maximum, IE limiting the amount of high threshold motor units recruited. The main contributors to CNS fatigue are not intensity according to the research. They are muscle damage and accumulated acute fatigue. When muscle damage is present, the CNS limits the amount of function the muscle is capable of as a defense mechanism. Accumulated acute fatigue is related to things like doing a set near failure, calcium ion build, metabolite build up, ect. Higher reps and volume actually directly contribute to both of these factors over say a 1RM. However, some people just "feel" drained and beat up by 1RMs and near max loads like 90%+, the reason for this? Not sure yet.

I say all of this to point out that your experience is not uncommon, it is actually how CNS fatigue is expected to develop according to research atm.

Of course this topic gets a lot more complex as we span outward. I would agree that the 3-5 reps range near failure does not make as much sense for DB pressing unless your goal is to be strong in the 1-5 rep range on DB pressing. Again, strength is specific. If you are doing DB pressing to build your bench, then I would think more about how DB pressing would increase your bench. The carryover is not as likely to be pattern specific, but through the accumulation of muscle mass, which can then be taught to produce more force on the bench.

DB pressing heavy for direct carryover to a heavy bench is limited by the movement pattern and needs not being as specific. Heavy benches really uses the pecs, delts, and triceps according to research. As the weight in the bench press increases from 80%-85% and above, we see the need for delt and triceps contribution increase compared to the pecs. DB pressing tends to favor the pecs, esp since the biceps work more for stability so this deactivates the triceps more. This alone makes DB pressing less movement specific. However, this still makes DB pressing great for building the pecs, so then the goal should be to do DB presses in a manner that we can maximize the muscle building stimulus compared to fatigue. Since DB pressing is less stable than BB pressing, this limits force output to some degree. We would not want to increase this discrepancy further by going heavier on DB pressing. Keeping DB pressing around 8-12/15 reps can help keep the load light enough that the stability downside is limited, but still heavy enough for some neurological effects (loosely) while maximizing the muscle building stimulus per set (5-30 reps near failure).

If want you want to alternate standard bench work with something else but still go heavy around 3-5 reps, I would pick another load limiting BB variation like long pauses, feet up, or close grip. Then follow that up with DB pressing. Load itself is an independent variable to cause fatigue, so if the goal of swapping the bench for DB work was to help recovery, the BB variation should help with this while keeping the intensity (% 1RM) in the target range.

 

[Hyde]

This is gonna be variable as well. Central nervous system (CNS) technically is described as the CNS not allowing the muscles to fire at their maximum, IE limiting the amount of high threshold motor units recruited. The main contributors to CNS fatigue are not intensity according to the research. They are muscle damage and accumulated acute fatigue. When muscle damage is present, the CNS limits the amount of function the muscle is capable of as a defense mechanism. Accumulated acute fatigue is related to things like doing a set near failure, calcium ion build, metabolite build up, ect. Higher reps and volume actually directly contribute to both of these factors over say a 1RM. However, some people just "feel" drained and beat up by 1RMs and near max loads like 90%+, the reason for this? Not sure yet.

I say all of this to point out that your experience is not uncommon, it is actually how CNS fatigue is expected to develop according to research atm.

Of course this topic gets a lot more complex as we span outward. I would agree that the 3-5 reps range near failure does not make as much sense for DB pressing unless your goal is to be strong in the 1-5 rep range on DB pressing. Again, strength is specific. If you are doing DB pressing to build your bench, then I would think more about how DB pressing would increase your bench. The carryover is not as likely to be pattern specific, but through the accumulation of muscle mass, which can then be taught to produce more force on the bench.

DB pressing heavy for direct carryover to a heavy bench is limited by the movement pattern and needs not being as specific. Heavy benches really uses the pecs, delts, and triceps according to research. As the weight in the bench press increases from 80%-85% and above, we see the need for delt and triceps contribution increase compared to the pecs. DB pressing tends to favor the pecs, esp since the biceps work more for stability so this deactivates the triceps more. This alone makes DB pressing less movement specific. However, this still makes DB pressing great for building the pecs, so then the goal should be to do DB presses in a manner that we can maximize the muscle building stimulus compared to fatigue. Since DB pressing is less stable than BB pressing, this limits force output to some degree. We would not want to increase this discrepancy further by going heavier on DB pressing. Keeping DB pressing around 8-12/15 reps can help keep the load light enough that the stability downside is limited, but still heavy enough for some neurological effects (loosely) while maximizing the muscle building stimulus per set (5-30 reps near failure).

If want you want to alternate standard bench work with something else but still go heavy around 3-5 reps, I would pick another load limiting BB variation like long pauses, feet up, or close grip. Then follow that up with DB pressing. Load itself is an independent variable to cause fatigue, so if the goal of swapping the bench for DB work was to help recovery, the BB variation should help with this while keeping the intensity (% 1RM) in the target range.

He’s alive!

 

[SweetLou321]

He’s alive!

Lol sure am, just not on much. Hope all is good man.

 

[Hyde]

Lol sure am, just not on much. Hope all is good man.

Never better!

If you ever decide to log your training again, jump in my training log and drop a link!

 

[SkRaw85]

So that was going to be my next question. I know many of the differences being natty vs on gear, but I mean really? Can you truly train at 75%, "overload" at only 80% when on a good cycle and somehow bam, knock out a PR? without truly overloading/straining?

How do you feel about training weight progression on SS vs raw? example:

last week I went 10 x 225lbs in SS.
this week I wanted to rep out, so I added 5lbs and did 230 x 10 in SS to finish up.
Any issue with continuing in that fashion in addition to my normal raw training?

Marks program seems bizarre to me in that you keep coming back at essentially the same %.
The whole reason I got the SS was to overload so today I benched 300 with it for a 1rm with my raw 1rm the past few months has been 275-280.

Agreed. I remember looking at that a few years back when I got my first slinger and chucked that in the trash. There are many ways to skin a cat and strength progression can absolutely be achieved in that load range as many programs utilize that range. Conjugate max days tend to be in the 90%+ range; dynamic days in the 40-60% (that’s a close average).

Hyde mentioned adding 5lbs weekly and keeping reps the same, that’s the route I’m using with my mad dog. Every max effort upper day I will bang out an overloaded double after my main movement and before accessories. Reps will remain the same but slowly incrementally increase load. I’ve typically used slingers 2x per month in the past but going weekly for the duration of this cycle.

 

[SweetLou321]

Never better!

If you ever decide to log your training again, jump in my training log and drop a link!

I dont train seriously enough or anything anymore for logs. I train more for health and maintenance now. Focusing more on relationships, career, and vacations now lol.

 

[Dustin07]

This is gonna be variable as well. Central nervous system (CNS) technically is described as the CNS not allowing the muscles to fire at their maximum, IE limiting the amount of high threshold motor units recruited. The main contributors to CNS fatigue are not intensity according to the research. They are muscle damage and accumulated acute fatigue. When muscle damage is present, the CNS limits the amount of function the muscle is capable of as a defense mechanism. Accumulated acute fatigue is related to things like doing a set near failure, calcium ion build, metabolite build up, ect. Higher reps and volume actually directly contribute to both of these factors over say a 1RM. However, some people just "feel" drained and beat up by 1RMs and near max loads like 90%+, the reason for this? Not sure yet.

I say all of this to point out that your experience is not uncommon, it is actually how CNS fatigue is expected to develop according to research atm.

Of course this topic gets a lot more complex as we span outward. I would agree that the 3-5 reps range near failure does not make as much sense for DB pressing unless your goal is to be strong in the 1-5 rep range on DB pressing. Again, strength is specific. If you are doing DB pressing to build your bench, then I would think more about how DB pressing would increase your bench. The carryover is not as likely to be pattern specific, but through the accumulation of muscle mass, which can then be taught to produce more force on the bench.

DB pressing heavy for direct carryover to a heavy bench is limited by the movement pattern and needs not being as specific. Heavy benches really uses the pecs, delts, and triceps according to research. As the weight in the bench press increases from 80%-85% and above, we see the need for delt and triceps contribution increase compared to the pecs. DB pressing tends to favor the pecs, esp since the biceps work more for stability so this deactivates the triceps more. This alone makes DB pressing less movement specific. However, this still makes DB pressing great for building the pecs, so then the goal should be to do DB presses in a manner that we can maximize the muscle building stimulus compared to fatigue. Since DB pressing is less stable than BB pressing, this limits force output to some degree. We would not want to increase this discrepancy further by going heavier on DB pressing. Keeping DB pressing around 8-12/15 reps can help keep the load light enough that the stability downside is limited, but still heavy enough for some neurological effects (loosely) while maximizing the muscle building stimulus per set (5-30 reps near failure).

If want you want to alternate standard bench work with something else but still go heavy around 3-5 reps, I would pick another load limiting BB variation like long pauses, feet up, or close grip. Then follow that up with DB pressing. Load itself is an independent variable to cause fatigue, so if the goal of swapping the bench for DB work was to help recovery, the BB variation should help with this while keeping the intensity (% 1RM) in the target range.

Agreed. I remember looking at that a few years back when I got my first slinger and chucked that in the trash. There are many ways to skin a cat and strength progression can absolutely be achieved in that load range as many programs utilize that range. Conjugate max days tend to be in the 90%+ range; dynamic days in the 40-60% (that’s a close average).

Hyde mentioned adding 5lbs weekly and keeping reps the same, that’s the route I’m using with my mad dog. Every max effort upper day I will bang out an overloaded double after my main movement and before accessories. Reps will remain the same but slowly incrementally increase load. I’ve typically used slingers 2x per month in the past but going weekly for the duration of this cycle.

It sounds like a variation of what I've been shifting back to is the consensus.
Actually it also sounds very much like the consensus among advanced lifters is still surprisingly enough, a variation of Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength... do your fives.

@SweetLou321 appreciate the detailed and thought out response. I'll be reading it more than once.

I spent so many years in "fitness sports" where high repetition was superior over 1rm and found that my 5 and 10 rep was often VERY close to 1rm. I seem to recall being able to 5 rep 295 and struggle at 315 at one point. This is one reason I do throw in more heavy singles than a lot of people. There's a part of me that things I honestly do not know how to strain maximally for 1 rep maxes. Especially with squats. Last month it came together with a deadlift PR and that was brutal, it was great. But I often times have to admit that when I fail a squat or a bench, it's just not that taxing and it does make me think that I'm not going as hard as I can. Otherside of that coin: I can rep out until I give myself rhabdo or pass out.

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah that XFitter muscular endurance is right on point. I am the opposite. I can do high rep work but my numbers are not close. My 1 rep max is going to be a good bit higher than my 5 rep max compared to some others.

 

[Rocket3015]

I am going to break out my Sling Shot next chest workout!

 

[SweetLou321]

It sounds like a variation of what I've been shifting back to is the consensus.
Actually it also sounds very much like the consensus among advanced lifters is still surprisingly enough, a variation of Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength... do your fives.

@SweetLou321 appreciate the detailed and thought out response. I'll be reading it more than once.

I spent so many years in "fitness sports" where high repetition was superior over 1rm and found that my 5 and 10 rep was often VERY close to 1rm. I seem to recall being able to 5 rep 295 and struggle at 315 at one point. This is one reason I do throw in more heavy singles than a lot of people. There's a part of me that things I honestly do not know how to strain maximally for 1 rep maxes. Especially with squats. Last month it came together with a deadlift PR and that was brutal, it was great. But I often times have to admit that when I fail a squat or a bench, it's just not that taxing and it does make me think that I'm not going as hard as I can. Otherside of that coin: I can rep out until I give myself rhabdo or pass out.

Sets of 5 are whatever really when it comes to strength. Hard sets of 5 near failure are a great intersection between maximizing the muscle building stimulus per set while still heavily favoring strength for 1RM carryover. However maximizing strength is not the same as maximizing 1RM strength, and usually for most lifters the training that leads to the best adaptations in both categories are divergent.

Some of the skill of lifting 90%+ intensity or muscular endurance is genetic. Some of it can be trained and acquired as an adaptation. If you goal is to get good at 90%+ loads, I would train for that then.

I would train your strength lifts for the skill of a 1RM performance in this case. So near failure sets of 5 (4-6) would not be my go to in this case.

I would try starting these moves off with a single at around RPE 8 for the skills of lifting heavy loads, that will improve in time. I would then do submax loads as backdown sets that are "heavy" but far from failure so we can train the skill of maximum force production early in a set, which is more specific to training for a 1RM.

Like:
Single at RPE 8, the goal should be to add weight to the bar when possible while keeping it at an RPE 8
then back down to like 85% for 2s for several sets, 3-5 based on need and recovery. Learning to turn it on mentally each set. I would base the % of an e1RM derived from the top single.

Maybe do 4-6 weeks of this, then deload and swap to something like:
Triple at RPE 9, this will help you translate the improved ability to move 90%+ loads with more a focus on straining on the last rep of a triple to help you now learn to strain with 90%+ loads. Again add load when possible while keeping the RPE goal.
then back down again but maybe 80% for 3s, several sets, 3-5 based on need and recovery. The back downs are again derived from an e1RM from the top triple. You could do 4-6 weeks of this.

From here you should be pretty well prepared adaptation wise for 1RM like loads.

 

[CATdiesel76]

I think it’s fine. I will add to what Wesley said and know and heard of a few experienced lifters having injuries with it. Myself included. And the technique it forces is the technique I use. I feel like the way it pulls inward on your forearms is unnatural and the stretch/rebound of the device has several different curves. Personally I’d rather just use reverse bands in a power rack for the same purpose and I think more effective and safer. Or floor presses, bench blocks, etc. I’m not saying it’s inherently bad and I think it serves a purpose. It just never felt right to me and something always strained weird with it. I’d rather do back down sets to get the extra volume and use bands to overload the top portion of the lift

 

[Dustin07]

I think it’s fine. I will add to what Wesley said and know and heard of a few experienced lifters having injuries with it. Myself included. And the technique it forces is the technique I use. I feel like the way it pulls inward on your forearms is unnatural and the stretch/rebound of the device has several different curves. Personally I’d rather just use reverse bands in a power rack for the same purpose and I think more effective and safer. Or floor presses, bench blocks, etc. I’m not saying it’s inherently bad and I think it serves a purpose. It just never felt right to me and something always strained weird with it. I’d rather do back down sets to get the extra volume and use bands to overload the top portion of the lift

The first time I used it... massive forearm pump. I was amazed at how the overload triggered new muscles that I don't typically stimulate enough in bench. After a month of playing with it I'm not noticing that anymore.

 

[SkRaw85]

The first time I used it... massive forearm pump. I was amazed at how the overload triggered new muscles that I don't typically stimulate enough in bench. After a month of playing with it I'm not noticing that anymore.

Everything works, nothing works forever.

-Louie