IHateGymMorons
Banned
Bobo said:
Actually the studies I've read measured BF%, so we must've read different studies. Actually, at least one of the studies I'm sure came from an NSCA Journal that I receive.
Skim Milk
- Thread starter SwoleT
- Start date
Actually the studies I've read measured BF%, so we must've read different studies. Actually, at least one of the studies I'm sure came from an NSCA Journal that I receive.
IHateGymMorons
Banned
Bobo said:
" Have no physiological effect? Are you crazy?"
I left out a word in that phrase... I should have wrote "has no beneficial physiological effect". Of course it has a physiological effect, it's food.
For a pre-sleep meal, you don't need large amounts of carbs. Yes carbs to facilitate protein synthesis, temporarily lower glucagon etc...but if you're worried about your body comp - which the original poster is - you don't want to eat carbs that late unless you train late at night.
"I suggest you talk to your professor because glyocgen is the main source of energy during exercise, especially resistance training and high intensity cardio. Fat is burned yes but glycogen is the main fuel source."
Please please don't put silly words in my mouth. No where at any time did I ever state that fat was used to fuel muscle contractions during resistance training. Never did I say that. Glycogen is the main fuel source for the actual contractions, the TCA cycle clearly points that out. Glycogen is not used when your sitting on the bench for 3 minutes between sets or walking or drinking water. I said that approx 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories. This is because of the rest periods, not because of the bench press. I was only saying this to make a point in strengthening my argument that fat is burned during sleep even if carbs are oxidized 5x faster. Sleep does not require a fuel that's burned 5x faster.
The TEF is merely a measure of how much extra energy/heat is produced in digesting certain foods. If you go walk on a treadmill low intensity for 60 minutes, you're going to burn a extraordinarily large proportion of fat for fuel. I just don't see how the TEF of a given food from a meal 2 hours ago affects this???
Yes I know what the TCA/citric acid/Krebs/tricarboxylic cycle or what have you is. I need you to explain how the TEF (thermic effect of food) influences which fuel the body chooses to use. My books never taught this. Maybe your book does. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just am not aware this. I'm not trying to get on anyone's nerves, I think this has been a healthy debate and I've learned a lot from your post since I've been a member and I hope you continue to reply to me. I've never claimed to know everything, but I think I do make a few good points based upon the knowledge I do have. This has been a great thread.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
1. You actually can if you diet is adequate and that is VERY easy to do. You are taking conepts and distorting them. All you have to do is find out how much EPA/DHA your body utilizes within a certain range and it is VERY small. Stating the benefits and preaching how we need this and need that withouth knowing how much is needed to accomplish this is done way too much on these boards. You did this with your omega 3 comments.
2. You said you WANT glucagon. If you understood the metabolic pathways (I aleady have 3 times) and consequences you most certainly do NOT want it. If you want to "manipulate (still doens't make sense) glucagon from getting out of hand then you use carbs, not fat. You keep agreeing with me but then completely reverse your point of view by supporting low carb diets. I've already stated this several times and for some reason you do not want to understand.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
1. You keep saying it has no benefitical effect when I clearly show you why it does if you do it in the right amounts. You are flip flopping back and forth like John Kerry. There is no carb fairy. YOu don't get fat by eating carbs before bedtime. The hormonal benefits of carbs far outweight those of fats. Its a scientific FACT. Look it up. Case closed. If you persist on using this arguement at least know what you are talking about. I haven't even gone into the leptin issue. ANyon with a scientific backround will state this. It supports the FED state 10x better than fats ever will.
2. You said high intensity exercise. High intensity exercise is categoraized in ANY Exercise and Sports Nutrition program as resistant training, HIIT and any activity highly dependent on glucose. So in essence you did say it withouth even understanding that you did. Check the hormonal profile on high intesnity exercise and you will see its almost identical to resistant training. This is what I mean by stating things that make no sense. You don't even know you are doing it.
I suggest you do a little more research because your body use glyocgen in between sets. Your body doesn't switch modes every second or minute. You heart rate and metabolism takes more the 3 minutes to switch. One you start your training session (weight lifting) glyocgen is the main source until at least 30-60 minutes post exercise. This is also WHY the body secretes GH during this time as a response. High intesntiy exercise does oxidize fat at a faster rate than low intensity exercise but low intensity releases more from stored adipose cells more than exercise. You seem to be mistaken on a lot of concepts here and stating very large generalities.
I am not putting works into your mouth but do me a favor and earn you degree and take your calsses then come back and read your posts. You will see you are HIGHLY mistaken on many of them. I have already said I am not ripping on you but when you are completely ignoring simple nutrional facts then I have to say something. My books didn't teach me this stuff, my classes over many years have. Books are great for reference but I type this as I know it from my head. Anyone who talks to me on the phone can attest to that.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
You're right. So stating that your body doesn't utilize carbs during sleep is completely wrong. Fat can be used and so can carbs. Fats are more energy dense andhave a much better change of getting stored in adipose cells. Its very simple but for some reason you believing the the majority of people that post on these boards and have no clue what they are tlaking about.
If it burns 5x times faster than means its oxidized and used 5x faster which means is will NOT be stored as fat. Its used. Nobody said LARGE amounts. You are the one who stated carbs don't get used which is completey false.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
You are not getting on anyone's nerves at all and I will continue to reply to you but you NEED to read up on some of these things because you are just wrong. I will disucss this as much as you want. Its my job. THis is what I do. My results and experience and knowledge allow me to eanr a living. If I was talking out my brownhole I wouldn't be traning people for a living (actually that isn't true, most traininers are idiots). I will rephrase. If I was talking out my brownhole I wouldn't be having the succes I am with my clients.
You made some points that I have agreed with but you have made some that are just wrong but for some reason don't want to do the reseach and understand why. That is all I ask. It gets redundant when I read your posts and you harp on the same points that are just wrong. I don't how many times I can explain to you why things are wrong. I'm not claiming to know everything but just like most people on these boards people are discussing advanced topicss withtout even understanding the basics. Thermic values and why the body utilizes certain macronutrients is leanred in entry level nutrition. These types of things should be understood before talking about insulin, glucagon, cAMP, HSL, LPL, Leptin, etc.....
If you don't understand the basics you won't understnad the rest.
IHateGymMorons
Banned
Bobo said:
#1 Carbs should be kept low and very low on the GI. Fat can be taken in low amounts. If you've spent all day eating carbs and your glycogen levels are high, then there's a great chance that even a sweet potato can ultimately convert into some fat.
Carbs and fats both have hormonal benefits that promote anabolism. You seem such a fan of carbs that it looks like you're negative about fats. I still need you to answer what you think "adequate fat intake is". I don't know you're talking about 20g or 75g. I just want to stress that fats, as I'm sure you know, have many very positive effects in the pursuit of enhance body comp and health. How many you need is dependent on your lifestyle and LBM.
Leptin is influenced by carbs drastically. Everything is not yet known about leptin, but carbs are definitely the trigger. This is the big trouble with low carb diets, the body thinks it starving. Leptin is a huge subject that's highly complex and I'd rather not get into it either. I'm sure we agree on it.
#2 If I said high intensity exercise, it was purely typo, I meant low intensity. Fats are used at a very high rate during low intensity exercise.
The body also is capable of metabolizing more than one fuel at a time, is it not? It doesn't have to be ALL carbs or ALL fats. That 60% is what I heard from John Berardi, I never read that in a textbook or anything like that.
Yes, I need to be more careful with my word choice, I'm kinda rushing through this and it sounds like I've overgeneralized some things. Do you have any studies you could point me to regarding energy metabolism during workouts?
IHateGymMorons
Banned
Bobo said:
Depending on how many you eat, not ALL carbs are oxidized.
IHateGymMorons
Banned
Bobo said:
Actually TEF, was not ever talked about in my entry level Nutrition class. I first learned about it on my own.
As a continual student, I'd appreciate if you point out what you do agree with. Until now thought you were disagreeing with everything. I still need you to explain how TEF influences which fuel the body chooses for it's main source. TEF is an effect that comes after the fuel utilization, not before. The food must first be digested before there is an TEF. It sounded like you said TEF is somehow an influencing factor of the TCA cycle. Maybe I misinterpreted.
It's really hard to have these debates over the computer. So much can be taken the wrong way, misinterpreted, spelled wrong, and become victims of typo...Nevertheless I know everyone has learned something here.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
1. I agree with everything there but the problem is (which I have seen happen over the last 2 years with the low carb craze) is people think you need to consume large amounts, or cut large amounts to ahcieve the benefits. You don't need that much fat to get the benefits you speak of. I am a fan of carbs now because they do so many beneficial things but I a fan of smart carbs at reasonable levels. This is the problem with most of these boards in that people take ti to the extremes withouth understanding why things happen. Fats are VERY beneifical but the amount needed is grossly exaggerated. Lowering carbs can have a great benefit but ketosis is a farce, even Lyle will agree with that. People tihnk you have to lower carbs drastically and you just do not have too. It ALL about regulating them, not cutting them in drastic amounts.
2. Yes the body uses various sources ALL the time. It never uses just one source but there is a major shift depending on the type of exercise. The higher the intenstiy the more it is dependent on glucose and'or glycogen, even though fat oxidation (not release of stored fat) is increased. OTOH low intesnity is much less reliant on glucose and will actually cause more of a release of stored tryglycerides than high intensity exercise.
Listen bro, I really am not trying to rip on you or anything. You obviously have shown that you WANT to learn this stuff but the best thing you can is read some basic nutrition books (college texts, not books from Borders..most are horrible). Once you strip all this down into the basics it is SO much easier to understand. You will really see what I am talking about then and you will see the mistakes you've made. Thats ok, you leanr from your mistakes. I used to pro keto all the way until I really dug in and went back to the basics. Once you do that you really see the flaws when it pertains to BB'ers or just active people in general. Even Lyle is leaning to lower fat even though he still holds on to carb cycling.
As for studies, there are a thousands of them on PubMed. I used to keep a lot of them before my computer crashed when I moved. I haven't begun to try to get them back yet. Most of the are references in most of the texts so when I need one I just get the info there or just go to the various journal pages.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
No I wasn't disagreeing with everything. Not at all. As for explaining the TEF, give me some time. Thats is a whole differnt subject, like leptin. Its often overlooked and deemed insignificant. In reality it would be if you followed FDA guideline but most here don't even come close, so its much more a factor.
As for TEF and TCA, I was talking about two seperate things after you brought exercise into the picture.
I can't beleive they didn't gove over TEF and energy metabolism in your nutrition class. That stinks. Look for some more advanced classes then take some graduate level classes (after your prerequisites) if you feel you can handle the load.
Brodus
Banned
I'd like to know where IHateGymMorons is getting his information from?
I worked for one of the top exercise physiologists and nutritionists at U of M, and trained with pre-Olympic athletes at this time. My mentor, Dr. Charles Kuntzleman, also gave nutritonal advice to our University track team, and worked with Arnold "The Oak" on creating optimal nutrition and exercise plans for the Nation's public schools (sadly, none of which have been followed).
I never once saw anyone "loading" on fats, nor did I ever hear any caution about eating carbs before bed. In fact, a lot of what my mentor's work did was de-bunk the Atkins book...of course, this was 20 years ago, and you can see how our short-term our social memory is.
The carb-craze sells books and overpriced food products...high carbs let me run a half mile in under 1:50.
I worked for one of the top exercise physiologists and nutritionists at U of M, and trained with pre-Olympic athletes at this time. My mentor, Dr. Charles Kuntzleman, also gave nutritonal advice to our University track team, and worked with Arnold "The Oak" on creating optimal nutrition and exercise plans for the Nation's public schools (sadly, none of which have been followed).
I never once saw anyone "loading" on fats, nor did I ever hear any caution about eating carbs before bed. In fact, a lot of what my mentor's work did was de-bunk the Atkins book...of course, this was 20 years ago, and you can see how our short-term our social memory is.
The carb-craze sells books and overpriced food products...high carbs let me run a half mile in under 1:50.
IHateGymMorons
Banned
Bobo said:
If there's glycogen to be stored, why would the body burn all incoming carbs before it had a chance to top off glycogen. What you say sounds like all incoming carbs are burned no matter what. How can you fill up glycogen stores if all carbs are burned 5x faster than anything else? I just need you to clear this up for me.
IHateGymMorons
Banned
Brodus said:
So then your a track star...Track atheletes need to eat more carbs than your typical bodybuilder. Never once did I say to "load fats". I'm just making a case for 200lb bodybuilders possibly needing more than the RDA. Are you a fat phobic? It's proven that too many carbs eaten late at night can severely reduce GH output during sleep. Once again, I'm not trying to promote Atkins, I'm just trying to tell people that it's stupid to lower fat intake down to 20-30g to lose fat. I hope nobody here would advocate that.
If you train hard, choose your foods wisely and get the timing right, you can reach 6-7% BF with 70-80g fat easily. At least this has been my experience. I'm not saying it applies to everyone.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
Glyocgen stores turnover at a rate of about every 2-3 hours. Its almost never completely full. They are not "topped" off. If energy is not needed in great amounts the first macronutrient to be oxidized is carbs, not fats.
The body doens't pick one usage for carbs. Carbs are utilized in many functions compared to fats.
And if your diet is adequate and planned properly, yes all carbs are used in some fashion. Fats OTOH are not.
This is basic nutrition. Instead of getting your "facts" from low carb sites and message boards, please read the published literature first. Until you do, you have already shown not to understand what is going on.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
Prove it. Show me the study. Because the only ones showing anything relevant to this was done in diabetics in a state of hypoglycemia in which the gh pulse also increase the levels of cortisol. In other words, in normal people your statement means nothing.
Growth hormone-releasing hormone facilitates hypoglycemia-induced release of cortisol.
Perras B, Schultes B, Schwaiger R, Metz C, Wesseler W, Born J, Fehm HL.
Department of Neuroendocrinology, University of Lubeck, Lubeck, Germany. [email protected]
Inhibition of sleep-induced growth hormone secretion: no effect on diabetic control.
Davidson MB, Peters AL.
Publication Types:
* Comment
* Letter
PMID: 2257001 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Some aspects of circadian variations of carbohydrate metabolism and related hormones in man.
Sensi S.
Publication Types:
* Review
PMID: 4619798 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Now if you want to use those studies done on NORMAL people then you might find this one interesting.
Growth Hormone Secretion during Sleep
Y. Takahashi, D. M. Kipnis, and W. H. Daughaday
Washington University School of Medicine, Department of Medicine, Metabolism Division, St. Louis, Missouri 63110
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Abstract
Plasma growth hormone (GH), insulin, cortisol, and glucose were measured during sleep on 38 nights in eight young adults. Blood was drawn from an indwelling catheter at 30-min intervals; EEG and electrooculogram were recorded throughout the night. In seven subjects, a plasma GH peak (13-72 mμg/ml) lasting 1.5-3.5 hr appeared with the onset of deep sleep. Smaller GH peaks (6-14 mμg/ml) occasionally appeared during subsequent deep sleep phases. Peak GH secretion was delayed if the onset of sleep was delayed. Subjects who were awakened for 2-3 hr and allowed to return to sleep exhibited another peak of GH secretion (14-46 mμg/ml). Peak GH secretion was not correlated with changes in plasma glucose, insulin, and cortisol. The effects of 6-CNS-active drugs on sleep-related GH secretion were investigated. Imipramine (50 mg) completely abolished GH peaks in two of four subjects, whereas chlorpromazine (30 mg), phenobarbital (97 mg), diphenylhydantoin (90 mg), chlordiazepoxide (20 mg), and isocarboxazid (30 mg) did not inhibit GH peaks. Altered hypothalamic activity associated with initiation of sleep results in a major peak of growth hormone secretion unrelated to hypoglycemia or changes in cortisol and insulin secretion.
This is what I mean by posting statements that are COMPLETELY false.
As for your other statements, it doesnt apply to everyone and quite frankly at 24, your experience is not that much. I could get to 6-7% at 24 without trying.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Maybe you should read these:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1972 Oct;35(4):592-4. Related Articles, Links
Inhibition of sleep related growth hormone release by elevated free fatty acids.
Lipman RL, Taylor AL, Schenk A, Mintz DH.
PMID: 5052978 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1972 Sep;35(3):407-12. Related Articles, Links
The effect of elevated free fatty acids (FFA) on the sleep-induced human growth hormone (HGH) peak.
Lucke C, Adelman N, Glick SM.
PMID: 5051363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1971 Jan;32(1):65-9. Related Articles, Links
Human growth hormone release in sleep: nonsuppression by acute hyperglycemia.
Parker DC, Rossman LG.
PMID: 5539028 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
There is no carb fairy.....let it go.....
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1972 Oct;35(4):592-4. Related Articles, Links
Inhibition of sleep related growth hormone release by elevated free fatty acids.
Lipman RL, Taylor AL, Schenk A, Mintz DH.
PMID: 5052978 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1972 Sep;35(3):407-12. Related Articles, Links
The effect of elevated free fatty acids (FFA) on the sleep-induced human growth hormone (HGH) peak.
Lucke C, Adelman N, Glick SM.
PMID: 5051363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1971 Jan;32(1):65-9. Related Articles, Links
Human growth hormone release in sleep: nonsuppression by acute hyperglycemia.
Parker DC, Rossman LG.
PMID: 5539028 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
There is no carb fairy.....let it go.....
IHateGymMorons
Banned
I've always thought that elevated blood sugar inhibited GH release to a degree. These studies led me to believe that:
European Journal of Applied Physiology; 80 (2), 92-99, 1999.
Journal of Applied Physiology; 76 (2), 839-845, 1994.
They showed that drinking carb infused drinks during endurance exercise increased blood insulin which correlated with decreased blood GH. If it's doing it DURING exercise when the body is very sensitive to insulin, and normally releases GH naturally, then I speculated that it must be worse right before bed at the end of the day when you're naturally a little less insulin sensitive...
Choosing the wrong carbs and/or too many carbs, could affect affect the first couple GH spikes during sleep. The first peak during sleep is the largest secretion too. OTOH elevated FFA's have been shown to inhibit GH secretion too. I'm not promoting a large fatty meal before bed, gotta get that straight. I believe you can eat carbs before bed, but it shouldn't be 50-60g, and they should be low GI. I never said "don't eat carbs", I said to beware of "too many" and should've added "the wrong kinds".
Bobo- what's your idea of a good pre-sleep meal, just curious? Most people would say some cottage cheese with a little EFA's... Just wondering how your recommendation would differ in light of your fondness of carbs.
European Journal of Applied Physiology; 80 (2), 92-99, 1999.
Journal of Applied Physiology; 76 (2), 839-845, 1994.
They showed that drinking carb infused drinks during endurance exercise increased blood insulin which correlated with decreased blood GH. If it's doing it DURING exercise when the body is very sensitive to insulin, and normally releases GH naturally, then I speculated that it must be worse right before bed at the end of the day when you're naturally a little less insulin sensitive...
Choosing the wrong carbs and/or too many carbs, could affect affect the first couple GH spikes during sleep. The first peak during sleep is the largest secretion too. OTOH elevated FFA's have been shown to inhibit GH secretion too. I'm not promoting a large fatty meal before bed, gotta get that straight. I believe you can eat carbs before bed, but it shouldn't be 50-60g, and they should be low GI. I never said "don't eat carbs", I said to beware of "too many" and should've added "the wrong kinds".
Bobo- what's your idea of a good pre-sleep meal, just curious? Most people would say some cottage cheese with a little EFA's... Just wondering how your recommendation would differ in light of your fondness of carbs.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Not during sleep.
The response of the body during exercise is not the same during sleep or in normal feeding patterns for that matter.
And what are those studies? You are just listing pages. What are the studies that those pages reference.
The response of the body during exercise is not the same during sleep or in normal feeding patterns for that matter.
And what are those studies? You are just listing pages. What are the studies that those pages reference.
IHateGymMorons
Banned
Bobo said:
"And if your diet is adequate and planned properly, yes all carbs are used in some fashion. Fats OTOH are not."
I agree, planning is critical here.
You say that "all carbs are used in some fashion"...to the average person reading this, that sounds like carbs are immune from turning into fat. Surely you acknowledge the fact and possibility that excess carbs can contribute to fat gain independent of fat intake. I'm not saying there's some magic number of carbs, and if you exceed it, then you get fat...I'm just saying that it happens.
BTW, I don't read or participate in "low carb message boards" or websites. I don't even know what one of those would be...atkins.com maybe??? I don't know why you continually label me an Atkins proponent when I've said and agreed with dozens of things that are anti-low-carb
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
"You will not burn carbs during sleep."
Yes you did.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
Because you repeat exactly what they say.
I tihnk it is in your best interest to go back and read some of those studies before continuing on. I already suggested to read up some more because you are still stating things that are completely false.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
I suppose this is the study you presented for stating GH is reduced during sleep because of carbs?
R. M. Chandler, H. K. Byrne, J. G. Patterson, and J. L. Ivy
Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise
J Appl Physiol 76: 839-845, 1994
This study has nothing to do with sleep at all or anything resebling GH pulses during times of REM sleep.
IHateGymMorons
Banned
Bobo said:
Wow, you are certainly blessed with good genetics. Most guys who don't try, actually look like they don't try.
IHateGymMorons
Banned
Bobo said:
That was one of my overgeneralized statements, that isn't 100% true. Sorry. I did however say the word "too many" right before that I think. That all goes back to my statements that carbs are preferentially burned during higher intensity activities. Sleep isn't high intensity, so that's why I made that statment. Yes carbs are used during sleep, we agreed that all fuels are used to some degree simultaneously.
IHateGymMorons
Banned
Bobo said:
Yes, the studies didn't focus on sleep though. It did find that elevated blood glucose lowered GH, which leads me to believe that nothing is stopping it from happenning at night either. Still, you may have proved my previous statement wrong. Perhaps the signal to release GH during sleep is so strong that even a little blood sugar couldn't stop it. This is very possible.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Its not that its strong, its that it is responding to different stimuli via differnt pathways. In the human body, there is hardly ever ONE cause and effect.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
IHateGymMorons said:
I wouldn't say I had great genetics. You could look at my before pic in my forum and see that. Its that my metabolism was still flying high at that age.