Show Evidence: TRT is OK for High-risk (family history) Prostate Cancer 44 y/o

[JYD]

So my Free, Total, ET, etc. are pointing toward TRT in the near future for me to get optimal. AND, I know recent research is debunking the 70-year-old study from 1941 that said high test in older men causes Prostate Cancer (PCa). I also have saved the studies that say TRT is helping Post-PCa patients for quality of life and keeping the cancer under control. Also, new studies are confident that TRT is ok LOW-risk P-CA men. HOWEVER, I do not see any recent research that suggests TRT is still safe or with minimal risk for HIGH-risk PCa men like myself.

My Dad survived Prostate Cancer, and got diagnosed around 67. Removed prostate and deals with it AND his doc have him on the estrogen/castration drugs. He's 78 and in overall good health, but his QOL isn't the best.

My brother is 47 and had a recent PSA of 4.4 a month ago that went down after a restest last week to 2.7; that is still on the high side for a man under 50 and they are monitoring it--no biopsy needed now, but need to watch it.

I've researched this a lot and save all the studies. I also look at WHO conducted or paid for the study. Example: one study was paid for by association of pharmacists that said TRT is just fine. HOWEVER, it did not state anything about High-risk males like me, so grain of salt on that one and it's from the people that make money if you by the drugs from them.

So, checking with anyone here that can show me a recent study that says TRT for high-risk males is ok?

Cheers!

 

[srocco112]

In to see responses

 

[t switz]

So my Free, Total, ET, etc. are pointing toward TRT in the near future for me to get optimal. AND, I know recent research is debunking the 70-year-old study from 1941 that said high test in older men causes Prostate Cancer (PCa). I also have saved the studies that say TRT is helping Post-PCa patients for quality of life and keeping the cancer under control. Also, new studies are confident that TRT is ok LOW-risk P-CA men. HOWEVER, I do not see any recent research that suggests TRT is still safe or with minimal risk for HIGH-risk PCa men like myself.

My Dad survived Prostate Cancer, and got diagnosed around 67. Removed prostate and deals with it AND his doc have him on the estrogen/castration drugs. He's 78 and in overall good health, but his QOL isn't the best.

My brother is 47 and had a recent PSA of 4.4 a month ago that went down after a restest last week to 2.7; that is still on the high side for a man under 50 and they are monitoring it--no biopsy needed now, but need to watch it.

I've researched this a lot and save all the studies. I also look at WHO conducted or paid for the study. Example: one study was paid for by association of pharmacists that said TRT is just fine. HOWEVER, it did not state anything about High-risk males like me, so grain of salt on that one and it's from the people that make money if you by the drugs from them.

So, checking with anyone here that can show me a recent study that says TRT for high-risk males is ok?

Cheers!

 

[t switz]

.......greetings......in dr rosenthalers book on trt, from harvard medical inst., a leading authority on the subject, he says the real threat to pros c is the combo of high dht with high estradiol together......not test per sae......the man who invented the psa test said its worthless in detecting pros c, but a biomarker to further consider testing.......best wishes............

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

In for info here too. My grandfather was diagnosed at 60 and my father was at 50. I'm 33 and luckily PSA level is currently 1> but I'm on the lookout earlier than most.

For what it's worth, I recently went to a couple clinics (one legit, one legitimately shady) looking into TRT and they both seemed unconcerned with my predisposition to prostate cancer.

While I understand that DHT and E seem to have more to do with prostate enlargement as well as cancer issues than T itself, it is the increased levels of T leading to increased levels of DHT and E that have me concerned.

 

[thebigt]

i might be wrong? but to me it seems unlikely to have both high estrogen+high dht levels.....from the research i have done it looks more and more like they are leaning towards high estrogen being more of a contributing factor than dht which they had previously thought to be the cause of prostrate cancer...

google prostrate cancer and serms.

at 62 and having 2 uncles die from prostrate cancer this is a subject of concern for me, especially since i have been on trt for over a dozen years and frequently use dht andro's.

 

[JYD]

.......greetings......in dr rosenthalers book on trt, from harvard medical inst., a leading authority on the subject, he says the real threat to pros c is the combo of high dht with high estradiol together......not test per sae......the man who invented the psa test said its worthless in detecting pros c, but a biomarker to further consider testing.......best wishes............

This is really good info. Thanks for sharing, man. I bolded what I want to see more research on. If TRT increases total/free test, and then concurrently DHT and E2, then what is the protocol? Do you then take something to reduce the DHT and E2, which then does that make the TRT counterproductive?

In for info here too. My grandfather was diagnosed at 60 and my father was at 50. I'm 33 and luckily PSA level is currently 1> but I'm on the lookout earlier than most.

For what it's worth, I recently went to a couple clinics (one legit, one legitimately shady) looking into TRT and they both seemed unconcerned with my predisposition to prostate cancer.

While I understand that DHT and E seem to have more to do with prostate enlargement as well as cancer issues than T itself, it is the increased levels of T leading to increased levels of DHT and E that have me concerned.

Agree. This is why I am asking for any studies I may have missed that addresses this for guys like us.

i might be wrong? but to me it seems unlikely to have both high estrogen+high dht levels.....from the research i have done it looks more and more like they are leaning towards high estrogen being more of a contributing factor than dht which they had previously thought to be the cause of prostrate cancer...

google prostrate cancer and serms.

at 62 and having 2 uncles die from prostrate cancer this is a subject of concern for me, especially since i have been on trt for over a dozen years and frequently use dht andro's.

Thanks for chiming in, amigo. I will try to post some of these studies and cut out the basic conclusion in each. Basically, the research is still a bit 'all over the place', but the good news is for LOW-risk guys, TRT is showing to be helpful to potentially stave PCa and also help men with Post-PCa.

Cheers.

 

[thebigt]

just google---'prostate cancer and serms'

a whole lot of articles come up under that general heading.

 

[bad rad]

Brother there is tons of research showing higher test levels lower prostate cancer risk. This article link a bunch of research. There are some that treat prostate cancer with TRT since it's the ratio of Test/DHT/E2 that causes BPH and prostate cancer.

A 2016 meta-analysisTrusted Source of research found no relationship between a man’s testosterone level and his risk of developing prostate cancer. Another review of studies showed that testosterone therapy doesn’t increase the risk of prostate cancer or make it more severe in men who have already been diagnosed.

Testosterone and Prostate Cancer: What’s the Connection?

Does testosterone increase your risk for prostate cancer? We'll let you in on what the latest research says.

www.healthline.com

 

[Pswain78]

I don’t understand how testosterone can cause prostate cancer when men who get it are older and as you get older your testosterone levels decline. If young men were getting it I would be concerned but there not. Now maybe it’s dht related, if so there are things you can take to lower dht.

 

[JYD]

I don’t understand how testosterone can cause prostate cancer when men who get it are older and as you get older your testosterone levels decline. If young men were getting it I would be concerned but there not. Now maybe it’s dht related, if so there are things you can take to lower dht.

Yup, agree. If high test or test in general caused PCa, why doesn't every 18 year old have PCa, right? I believe the recent studies that support negating the 1941 study by Huggins and Hodges.

Overall, I have read the studies that are now saying TRT for survivors of PCa shows benefit. But again, where is the study that says whether or not TRT is low risk for men that are high-risk due to family history/genetics.

Bottom: there is currently no study that says TRT is a low-risk venture for high-risk PCa men. I am asking someone to prove that statement wrong with a study. I don't see it so far.

I have read countless dudes on forums saying TRT and test and PCa has no causation or direct link. Let me retort and negate that by pasting this from one of the links provided:

Whether testosterone therapy is safe for men with a history of prostate cancer is still an open question. More studies are needed to understand the connection. The existing evidenceTrusted Source suggests that testosterone therapy may be safe for some men with low testosterone who have successfully completed prostate cancer treatment and are at low risk for a recurrence.

Another one here:

Men who received testosterone therapy after treatment for localized prostate cancer do not appear to suffer higher rates of recurrence or worse outcomes; although studies to date are limited.

The above statements only addresses TRT MAYbe being safe for men that already have the cancer and have had treatment.

I realize a lot of people have trouble reading between the lines or pertinent disclaimer terms like "do not appear" "may be safe...some men".

This is what annoys me: I have a few friends, all on TRT, mid-30s on up, and I see it all over the forums too, that suggest "TRT is totally fine and doesn't accelerate prostate cancer. All the studies say that now. " Sure, but a lot of those new studies are not accounting for genetic predisposition. Maybe TRT is great once you're in remission, but what about beforehand; you know, like when you're trying not to get it too early (bc many men have it when they die, but something else kills us first).

And one big also: none of these studies are 100% absolute nor conclusive. Just look at the two examples I gave above. But people are throwing around some of these admittedly encouraging new studies as they are 100% absolute, conclusive, and accounting for every guy's situation in terms of the risk, but they aren't.

I've been hearing this "you need TRT, just optimize now" from a bunch of my friends that started doing it at 35 that don't have a family history, and when I bring up the lack of studies for high-risk men like me, they shut me down. So I'm using this thread to educate others and try to prove them right!

I'm on a mission. If my brother ends up having PCa before 50, I'm on a mission to bring more awareness. It was bad enough my dad essentially castrated himself and isn't really happy b/c he's on the estrogen pills, but he's alive and he seems happy enough, even though I know he's unhappy a lot these days.

I'm wrestling with do I put QOL ahead of risk getting PCa at 55 or something, or just do what I can naturally and stave off TRT altogether. My latest total test was 464, dropping from 628 in just 12 months.

 

[thebigt]

I don’t understand how testosterone can cause prostate cancer when men who get it are older and as you get older your testosterone levels decline. If young men were getting it I would be concerned but there not. Now maybe it’s dht related, if so there are things you can take to lower dht.

just to play devils advocate a reason why older guys might get prostate issues is things wear down as we get older, joints, organs, brain, it could be that prostate issues is just reflective of aging?

 

[JYD]

just to play devils advocate a reason why older guys might get prostate issues is things wear down as we get older, joints, organs, brain, it could be that prostate issues is just reflective of aging?

100%. Like I said, it shocked me to read a few studies that said many men end up getting PCa, but they die at older age from something else. The prostate is just a shitty organ, I guess. Ha! But some men have a rougher run with it due to genetics.

 

[JYD]

greetings again......even though our general biology is the same, we are all vastly different in every aspect......genetics rule our existance, and a wise lifestyle is our best weapon to address individual challenges........people with the exact same diagnoses display a wide range of effects.....you are wise to consider your situation....when we were young we'd sell our souls for a lb of muscle, so now priority is in play....... play for the long term, plan on training routinely yr round, lifelong,clean lifestyle,low stress, master your diet to be sustainable, say your prayers, give thanks, hopefully you will live long and happy, dont roll the dice, you dont have to, to be who you want to be......... peace............

Truth and wise words. Great post, man. Cheers!

 

[bad rad]

An improved understanding of the negative effects of testosterone deficiency on health and health-related quality of life—and the ability of testosterone therapy to mitigate these effects—has triggered a re-evaluation of the role testosterone plays in prostate cancer. An important paradigm shift has occurred within the field, in which testosterone therapy may now be regarded as a viable option for selected men with prostate cancer suffering from testosterone deficiency.

From the study I posted earlier.

 

[JYD]

An improved understanding of the negative effects of testosterone deficiency on health and health-related quality of life—and the ability of testosterone therapy to mitigate these effects—has triggered a re-evaluation of the role testosterone plays in prostate cancer. An important paradigm shift has occurred within the field, in which testosterone therapy may now be regarded as a viable option for selected men with prostate cancer suffering from testosterone deficiency.

From the study I posted earlier.

Thanks, man. Read all that you sent in the links and there is great info that's very promising for sure!

On what you posted above, however, it only addresses there MAY be a viable option for ALREADY with prostate cancer. This does not address the amount of confidence science has in giving TRT to high-risk men that don't yet have prostate cancer but could very well get it earlier due to genetics. ....That's the study/research we're looking for... the one that states this below:

We have a high degree of confidence based on a large sample size of studying men with low testosterone, that are also high-risk for prostate cancer due to genetics, and that utilized TRT for low testosterone treatment, that the TRT did not accelerate nor contribute to these high-risk me getting PCa sooner or at all because of the multitude of effects that occur using TRT; i.e. increase in test, estrogen, DHT conversion, etc. In sum, TRT is a safe and low-risk method for low testosterone treatment for men that are high-risk for PCa.

We want to see the study that says this above.

 

[bad rad]

There's probably no study examining what you're asking. It's unethical to potentially give high risk men PCa. The best anecdotal evidence is men with sufficient serum testosterone levels don't get PCa.

It's all about controlling E2 really. Men are meant to have high androgens not high estrogens.

 

[thebigt]

There's probably no study examining what you're asking. It's unethical to potentially give high risk men PCa. The best anecdotal evidence is men with sufficient serum testosterone levels don't get PCa.

It's all about controlling E2 really. Men are meant to have high androgens not high estrogens.

this...the new research is on using serms versus the old method of anti-androgens to treat prostate cancer...

 

[JYD]

There's probably no study examining what you're asking. It's unethical to potentially give high risk men PCa. The best anecdotal evidence is men with sufficient serum testosterone levels don't get PCa.

It's all about controlling E2 really. Men are meant to have high androgens not high estrogens.

Gotcha. So based on that, there will never be high-confidence TRT is low-risk for high-risk men. I Will wait to see how the research progresses. For now, I'll just monitor my levels annually as I have been and look at any alternatives as needed before seriously considering TRT.

Cheers. And btw, if any new research you come across, share it on this thread if it comes to mind.

Thanks again.

 

[bad rad]

You may want to try DIM. I used 200mg daily with TRT and it lowered my E2 by 50%. It's not an AI but helps the body metabolize estrogens.

 

[JYD]

this...the new research is on using serms versus the old method of anti-androgens to treat prostate cancer...

Here you go, brother. Per below, SERMs are showing positive progress on the prevention and treatment of PCa. Thanks for suggested to look it up.

In conclusion, the present study demonstrated that raloxifene, a SERM, induces apoptosis in the androgen-responsive human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP. Because raloxifene has been shown to be effective with an acceptable side effect profile in preventing both breast cancer and osteoporosis in women (5 , 6) , the present results suggest that raloxifene is a viable agent for clinical trials in treating and preventing prostate cancer. The use of raloxifene for both the treatment and prevention of prostate cancer will now be investigated.

Raloxifene, a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, Induces Apoptosis in Androgen-responsive Human Prostate Cancer Cell Line LNCaP through an Androgen-independent Pathway

Raloxifene, a selective estrogen receptor (ER) modulator, is a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist that has been shown to prevent osteoporosis and breast cancer in women. Because the prostate contains a high level of ER-β, the present study investigated the effect of raloxifene in the...

cancerres.aacrjournals.org

 

[thebigt]

Here you go, brother. Per below, SERMs are showing positive progress on the prevention and treatment of PCa. Thanks for suggested to look it up.

In conclusion, the present study demonstrated that raloxifene, a SERM, induces apoptosis in the androgen-responsive human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP. Because raloxifene has been shown to be effective with an acceptable side effect profile in preventing both breast cancer and osteoporosis in women (5 , 6) , the present results suggest that raloxifene is a viable agent for clinical trials in treating and preventing prostate cancer. The use of raloxifene for both the treatment and prevention of prostate cancer will now be investigated.

Raloxifene, a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, Induces Apoptosis in Androgen-responsive Human Prostate Cancer Cell Line LNCaP through an Androgen-independent Pathway

Raloxifene, a selective estrogen receptor (ER) modulator, is a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist that has been shown to prevent osteoporosis and breast cancer in women. Because the prostate contains a high level of ER-β, the present study investigated the effect of raloxifene in the...

cancerres.aacrjournals.org

using serms is a ton better than treating with anti-androgens and castration, in my totally 100% honest opinion!!!