Saw Palmetto - Losing Mass

Terp03 said:
Would my low estrogens be causing any of these problems? I get erections at night but morningwood is still not present as well as spontaneous erections during the day and libido is still non-existent. A few weeks after stopping SP I did the Broccoli treatment for a couple days since I was freaked out but it may have made my problems worse, though I highly doubt broccoli water would have further hurt me, it might have even helped? My estrogens had to have been somewhat higher on SP as I did have larger nipples - they're back to normal size and no signs of gyno. Maybe I brought them too low? I know that all that extra test from SP aromatizes to estrogen and that's not a good thing. Again, estrogen results:

Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)

Estrogens on the low-end are just as bad as being in the high-end, right?
Click to expand...

Yes, definitely. How are you feeling with the ocytocin and seligiline that Shippen prescribed? Any improvement? Did he say anything about your high SHBG and low free T?
 
I honestly haven't noticed much change - I ran out of Oxytocin and need to get a refill. I just had a phone consult with him and he prescribed small-dosed Ritalin (for libido) and Testosterone drops so will get those fillied in the next few days. Said to use them 2-3 hours before sex, gym, if I'm feeling fatigued, etc and see if that helps. He showed me the chart about SHBG and Free T but said I was OK in that dept.

What a mess I got myself into, albeit by mistake - but why should it cost me my health? I try not to beat myself up over this but it's like living in a body that isn't mine. I was perfectly healthy prior to this disaster and I've never been so down in my entire life when just a few months ago I was in tip-top form. I've made some improvements since the crash but I'm far from what I was (at least in my mind).

Amazingly I can still lift the same amount of weights and even maxed out on the bench last week - 235lbs and I weigh 165lbs (I'm 6"1" btw). Still, the muscle wastage/decrease is depressing (I've never seen my wrists so skinny/small) but hopefully I can maintain the same strength. Shirts just don't fit me the same way they used to but I'm not in bad shape by any means - I still have energy to goto the gym and have little body fat - but my chest/arms/calves used to be a lot bigger. High cortisol could be the culprit in terms of gains but who knows.

My appetite has decreased significantly - I used to be starving after the gym and now I feel like my stomach has shrunk and a Lean Cuisinewill will fill me up. I used to have a ravenous appetitie and a high metabolism, so I probably had a higher calorie intake compared to now. I'm on Wellbutrin and that's been known to supress appetite, but I'm just not the human garbage disposal I used to be. Sleep isn't the same either. Heck, I'll be happy if I'm back to even 80% of my old self.
 
Results from 5/9/08:

Bloodwork:
Progesterone .50 (<1.4 ngML)
T4 Free 1.25 (0.8-1.8 ng/dL)
TSH 0.84 (0.40-4.50 uIU/mL)
T3 Total 119 (60-181 ng/DL)
DHEA Sulfate 212 (110-510mcg/dL)
Cortisol (AM) 1.0L (4.0-22.0 mcg/dL)*
ACTH Plasma <5L (7-50 pg/mL)*

* = After Dexamethasone Suppression Test, hence the low reading (which is good)

Salivary Cortisol: 0.70 [Not sure which vile out of the three this is referring to or if this is an average, took at 3 different times]
Reference Range:
8-10AM 0.04-0.56
4-6PM < OR = 0.15
10-11PM < OR = 0.09

Adrenal MRI = OK, no problem found
 
Terp03 said:
I honestly haven't noticed much change - I ran out of Oxytocin and need to get a refill. I just had a phone consult with him and he prescribed small-dosed Ritalin (for libido) and Testosterone drops so will get those fillied in the next few days. Said to use them 2-3 hours before sex, gym, if I'm feeling fatigued, etc and see if that helps. He showed me the chart about SHBG and Free T but said I was OK in that dept.

What a mess I got myself into, albeit by mistake - but why should it cost me my health? I try not to beat myself up over this but it's like living in a body that isn't mine. I was perfectly healthy prior to this disaster and I've never been so down in my entire life when just a few months ago I was in tip-top form. I've made some improvements since the crash but I'm far from what I was (at least in my mind).

Amazingly I can still lift the same amount of weights and even maxed out on the bench last week - 235lbs and I weigh 165lbs (I'm 6"1" btw). Still, the muscle wastage/decrease is depressing (I've never seen my wrists so skinny/small) but hopefully I can maintain the same strength. Shirts just don't fit me the same way they used to but I'm not in bad shape by any means - I still have energy to goto the gym and have little body fat - but my chest/arms/calves used to be a lot bigger. High cortisol could be the culprit in terms of gains but who knows.

My appetite has decreased significantly - I used to be starving after the gym and now I feel like my stomach has shrunk and a Lean Cuisinewill will fill me up. I used to have a ravenous appetitie and a high metabolism, so I probably had a higher calorie intake compared to now. I'm on Wellbutrin and that's been known to supress appetite, but I'm just not the human garbage disposal I used to be. Sleep isn't the same either. Heck, I'll be happy if I'm back to even 80% of my old self.
Click to expand...

How about your butt,thighs and legs, Did you lose msucle/wastage in that area?
I have lost a lot of muscle in this area too. My oants and shirts wont fit me.
 
On this thread
your post #2
Here are my labs: 2/15/08

DHEA 187 ng/DL (180-1250)
DHEA Sulfate 356 mcg/dL (110-510)
Prolactin, Serum 4.8 ng/dl (2.0-18.0)
LH, Serum 1.9 mIU/mL (1.5-9.3)
FSH, Serum 1.2 mIU/mL (1.6-8.0)
Cortisol (AM) 19.9 mog/dL (4.0-22.0)
T4 Free 1.18 ng/dL (0.8 – 1.8)
TSH 0.93 mIU/L (0.40 – 4.50)
Estradiol 32 pg/ML (13 – 54)
Testosterone Total 419 ng/dL (250-1100)
SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
DHT 43 (25-75 ng/dL)
==============================================


Post #26
urine test BEFORE Clomid: (All ranges in ug)
Testosterone 84 (45 - 85)

Blood Test AFTER Clomid:

Testosterone 575 ng/dl (241 - 827)
LH 5.0 mIU/mL (1.5 - 9.3)
FSH 1.9 (1.6 - 8.0)
==============================================

#1 your have excellent care under dr Shippen
--------------------------------

What I would try if I found myself in your predicament.
I am not a doctor.

Drop each and every medication and supplements.
Saw Palmetto, seleginine, oxytocin, whatewer else that you are taking.

Get Adrenals and thyroid thoroughly checked.
Best using these tests:

Adrenocortex Stress Profile
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Comprehensive Thyroid Assessment
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Assuming that you did not took ant external testosterone,
so your testis are still in natural state,

do HCG challenge test,
to see what your testis are able to produce.

then asses if you are able to increase your testosterone production natural way (with help of HCG) or that you will have to combine (HCG + T shots)
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Other than lowish TotalTestosterone you have high SHBG.

Thanks for a clean chart,
I marked it with your present (SHBG=40) needs for TT(green)
TT(800-1500)
and
what would you need if you lower your SHBG=26
TT(650-1100)
-----------------------------------------------------------

High SHBG indicate some metabolic inbalances.
You can get a rather good help in this area if you would do this test:

NutrEval
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In results of this test you would receive list of supplements, names and daily dose.
Those will be the supplements that you are actualy missing.

Good luck

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darkblue1 said:
How about your butt,thighs and legs, Did you lose msucle/wastage in that area?
I have lost a lot of muscle in this area too. My oants and shirts wont fit me.
Click to expand...

Yeah I lost muscle in my calves, arms, hands, fingers, allover... wrists are as skinny as I've ever seen them... I used to be a 34 waist and can barely fit in a 33. The depression from all of this is just too much.
 
Terp03 said:
Yeah I lost muscle in my calves, arms, hands, fingers, allover... wrists are as skinny as I've ever seen them... I used to be a 34 waist and can barely fit in a 33. The depression from all of this is just too much.
Click to expand...
Low testosterone = depression
 
Yeah, but I had 428 BEFORE Saw Palmetto... it was naturally low to begin with but I was able to sexually function OK, sleep well, have morning/spontaneous erections, build muscle, have energy, etc. Some people are able to function fine at this level even though it may seem low to others.

Prior to SP, I had low libido (which I blame on long-term AD use - see PSSD, Paxil is a sex-drive killer) and depression (from hair loss and a breakup), but the low test could've attributed to both of these factors as well. I was never horny while on Paxil and even when I came off of it my libido just wasn't what it used to be (but at least some existed compared to now).

It has been theorized that long-term AD use can lower one's Testoserone levels, right?
 
Terp03 said:
Yeah, but I had 428 BEFORE Saw Palmetto... it was naturally low to begin with but I was able to sexually function OK, sleep well, have morning/spontaneous erections, build muscle, have energy, etc. Some people are able to function fine at this level even though it may seem low to others.

Prior to SP, I had low libido (which I blame on long-term AD use - see PSSD, Paxil is a sex-drive killer) and depression (from hair loss and a breakup), but the low test could've attributed to both of these factors as well. I was never horny while on Paxil and even when I came off of it my libido just wasn't what it used to be (but at least some existed compared to now).

It has been theorized that long-term AD use can lower one's Testoserone levels, right?
Click to expand...

Before you may have had different SHBG, much lower.
Now you have it very high.
I have edited the chart, on post #56 this thread, to address what I will say now.

What counts is
BAT -- BioAvailableTestosterone.
second choice
FreeT -- Free Testosterone

Now you have
SHBG=40 high
FreeT= 80 very small

Previously you may have had
SHBG=20 or even less
that would have given you
FreeT=115 big difference

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Biggest bang for the $$$ you will get if you do the
NutrEval
test that I mentioned.
It would clarify many of your inbalances.
 
How would I go about ordering these tests? What is the cost? Don't you need a doctor to order them or do you just call them up and order them yourself?

Would a lack of Free T cause some of these symptoms?

I've read Danazol lowers SHBG thereby freeing up Free T, could be something to look into.
 
Terp03 said:
How would I go about ordering these tests? What is the cost? Don't you need a doctor to order them or do you just call them up and order them yourself?

Would a lack of Free T cause some of these symptoms?

I've read Danazol lowers SHBG thereby freeing up Free T, could be something to look into.
Click to expand...

Of course FreeT is THE reason.
Actually it is BAT, BioAvailableTestosterone.

SHBG is an indicator of your overall health.
If you attack SHBG directly, you may not find out other problems that you have.

Those tests have to be ordered by a health provider that have account at Genova Daignostics.

You can get list of names by e-mail if you contact them.

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If there is a choice, personally I would give a preference to an ostheopath or MD who also deals with TRT, but that is just convenience.

-------
Genova is very adamant about getting insurance coverage if possible.
They file them selves for some insurance companies.
They give a doctor vey specific instructions about ICD-9 coding, so there is high likelyhood of getting paid.

This is my experience. I did number of those tests, my out of pocket costs are under $50.

You can look at my test reports on this thread:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/77385-jansz-metabolic-analysis.html

It is a learning exprience for me.
So I did not started with tests that I am suggesting for you, but my tests are within NutrEval set of tests.

If it mean anything, I have at home kits for NutrEval and Thyroid tests. Have appointment to do them in less than 2 weeks.
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I see your posts on dr John bb.
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Per his adamant request, I am not allowed to talk about Genova Diagnostics on his site.
Thought that you may want to know about it.
.

As you see, even here I am not able to spell his name, it gets all astericked

All I know is that Genova raised my pines to action, so it is on good side in my book.

I wish you well.
.
 
I have been suffering from this for almost a decade now. We are suffering from 5ar syndrome. The only hope is the Post Finasteride Foundation as doctors have no clue...
 
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