Sarms, Pro-hormones or Natty?

machusenpai

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Alright guys, I am kinda new to this forum, but I've been told that most of users are nice and helpful. By the way, here's a short story before entering the real subject.

I first bought a bottle of MK-677 and I ran it for 2 months at 15-17mg/day. I noticed considerable gains, more recovery and I also felt a little bit "fuller".

Alright, now it's been 2 months since I stopped it, but I am about to start again. I was wondering what should I stack it with? I heard about LGD&RAD but I also heard about mild pro-hormones (1-andro, 4-andro and Epi-ando). But, here's the dilemma, I don't want to run a strong compound like AAS or methylated pro-hormones. If possible, I don't want to screw my natural test for the rest of my life as I am only 22. I am aware that I will always need a PCT with organs support (I am fine with that, as long as I can recover completely). I am fine with noticeable strength & size gains and not crazy gains like AAS. I am going to bulk, so I am mostly looking for size and strength with the less sides. What compound would you suggest me based on what I am looking for between SARMS & PH ?



BIO:
22 yrs old
Been training for 6 years now.
Currently doing powerlifter with bodybuilding accessories.
 
Renew1

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Alright guys, I am kinda new to this forum, but I've been told that most of users are nice and helpful. By the way, here's a short story before entering the real subject.

I first bought a bottle of MK-677 and I ran it for 2 months at 15-17mg/day. I noticed considerable gains, more recovery and I also felt a little bit "fuller".

Alright, now it's been 2 months since I stopped it, but I am about to start again. I was wondering what should I stack it with? I heard about LGD&RAD but I also heard about mild pro-hormones (1-andro, 4-andro and Epi-ando). But, here's the dilemma, I don't want to run a strong compound like AAS or methylated pro-hormones. If possible, I don't want to screw my natural test for the rest of my life as I am only 22. I am aware that I will always need a PCT with organs support (I am fine with that, as long as I can recover completely). I am fine with noticeable strength & size gains and not crazy gains like AAS. I am going to bulk, so I am mostly looking for size and strength with the less sides. What compound would you suggest me based on what I am looking for between SARMS & PH ?



BIO:
22 yrs old
Been training for 6 years now.
Currently doing powerlifter with bodybuilding accessories.
Any compound that affects your natural Test production (such as Andros, PHs, SARMs, etc...) Has the possibility of affecting your body's natural system long term.
As a GENERAL rule (this is not set in stone) the more possibility you have of long term shutdown, the greater your gains will be.
You probably already know this, but I am just making sure.

I'm a big fan of Anavar. It is a steroid, but some of the "lighter" compounds give just as much (or more) possibility of long term affects on your system in my opinion.
I'm looking forward to seeing other answers as well.
Also, Anavar is a great powerlifting compound.
 
Noteboom

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Sarms or prohormones make sure to have a suitable serm and you should be alright.
 

Anabaholic

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Honestly at 22, you've still got plenty of good gains ahead of you, I would say to stay natty if you're on the fence. I don't think I've ever met a guy who said they wished they got on gear earlier in life.
 

machusenpai

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I think I almost reached my genetic potential, I get called often for not being "natty". But that's true I guess. I just wanted a little boost without too much side effects..
 

machusenpai

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Sarms or prohormones make sure to have a suitable serm and you should be alright.
Like Nolva/Clomid?

Honestly at 22, you've still got plenty of good gains ahead of you, I would say to stay natty if you're on the fence. I don't think I've ever met a guy who said they wished they got on gear earlier in life.
I think I almost reached my genetic potential, I get called often for not being "natty". But that's true I guess. I just wanted a little boost without too much side effects..
 
AnabolicGuru

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I think I almost reached my genetic potential, I get called often for not being "natty". But that's true I guess. I just wanted a little boost without too much side effects..
What’s your stats look like? Height, weight, bodyfat, big 3 lifts, etc
 
AnabolicGuru

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And renew pretty much summarized it up for you; there’s no guarantee that you’ll fully recover or not experience side effects. As far as compound recommendations, I think your best bet would be to just look up different ones and see which one you think you’d like the best. Simple andro stacks are pretty common for starters, and sarms are also becoming pretty popular. I personally started off with designers like epistane, msten, etc.
 
Old Witch

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Try 11-oxo. It's Pretty mild on the hpta but has some real solid effects.

SARMS are actually pretty hard on the hpta (or can be) if you run them long enough to actually work (12-16wks)
 

machusenpai

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What’s your stats look like? Height, weight, bodyfat, big 3 lifts, etc
Don't judge my height, I am coming from small persons.. Also, I had a back injury, so I couldn't squat or DL for 4-6 months, hence why my bench is almost better than my two other lifts.

5'3, 150lbs(68kg), 14-16%, Bench[285] - Squat[315] - Deadlift[330]
 

machusenpai

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Try 11-oxo. It's Pretty mild on the hpta but has some real solid effects.

SARMS are actually pretty hard on the hpta (or can be) if you run them long enough to actually work (12-16wks)
I just read about it, I might consider it in my options. Is it safer than 4-andro,1-andro & Epi-andro? Should I just stick with MK-2866 as it's the safest sarms atm?
I was also wondering about something.. I heard that sometimes SERM will give you more side effects than the compound itself...
 
Cgkone

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Don't judge my height, I am coming from small persons.. Also, I had a back injury, so I couldn't squat or DL for 4-6 months, hence why my bench is almost better than my two other lifts.

5'3, 150lbs(68kg), 14-16%, Bench[285] - Squat[315] - Deadlift[330]
There's nothing wrong with those lifts......
Or that height. But I think its safe to say you could probably add 150lbs to your total and gain 15lbs if you tightened up your diet and training and just stayed natty.

Ostarine and Clomid for 8 weeks followed by just Clomid for 3 weeks and you would probably have a higher test than you started.

I think if you start down the PED road now your gunna wish what lots of us wish.
SHOULD HAVE JUST STARTED WITH AAS!! Your probably just delaying the inevitable by taking osta or 11-oxo.
 

machusenpai

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There's nothing wrong with those lifts......
Or that height. But I think its safe to say you could probably add 150lbs to your total and gain 15lbs if you tightened up your diet and training and just stayed natty.

Ostarine and Clomid for 8 weeks followed by just Clomid for 3 weeks and you would probably have a higher test than you started.

I think if you start down the PED road now your gunna wish what lots of us wish.
SHOULD HAVE JUST STARTED WITH AAS!! Your probably just delaying the inevitable by taking osta or 11-oxo.
By inevitable you mean, Test suppression? But yea, I want to keep my testes working for as long as I can without having to pin myself every week.
 
Old Witch

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By inevitable you mean, Test suppression? But yea, I want to keep my testes working for as long as I can without having to pin myself every week.
Delaying the inevitable meaning you decide to use hardcore AAS eventually no matter what.


adrenosterone is one of my favorite light PHs. Great 24hr pumps, zero sides except some leg and rib cramps, sex drive through the roof, widespread fat loss. It's just not a massive weight gainer is all.
 
Renew1

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Delaying the inevitable meaning you decide to use hardcore AAS eventually no matter what.


adrenosterone is one of my favorite light PHs. Great 24hr pumps, zero sides except some leg and rib cramps, sex drive through the roof, widespread fat loss. It's just not a massive weight gainer is all.
What is it's closest equivalent, in effects?
 
Old Witch

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What is it's closest equivalent, in effects?
Anavar for sure. It's like a weakish dose of anavar, effects-wise, at 100mg 3x/day. At 300mg 3x/day it's more like a proper dose of anavar. Not quite though. Obviously anavar has its own benefits and can pack weight on if you try to. Adrenosterone won't add extra muscle glycogen storage rapidly, and seems to be maintainable as far as results. It also doesn't dry you out at all, no subq water reduction but there is lipolysis happening. Protein absorption seems to go up as with most AAS, if I'm on an 80+% protein diet I seem to **** like a rabbit. Just a pellet or two every couple of days, and zero bloat, zero stored waste in the gut.

I remember this being the first thing I took this year that's really really worked. Worked even better than the SARMS I think. Picking up some next payday. Need it bad for this new job. I can't come off ever again. Not while I rip the tires off tractor-trailers and sh1t ten hours a day. I can't afford to get weak like I am right now for even one day. going to run it straight through til I finally muster up the gumption to start pinning again. Then it's going to be beginners cycle v2.0: test C with a DS start and anavar to finish. Was going to use epistane to finish that, but I know it will kill my elbows. Can't have that happening a work, joints already hurt all day.
 
Old Witch

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What is it's closest equivalent, in effects?
Anavar for sure. It's like a weakish dose of anavar, effects-wise, at 100mg 3x/day. At 300mg 3x/day it's more like a proper dose of anavar. Not quite though. Obviously anavar has its own benefits and can pack weight on if you try to. Adrenosterone won't add extra muscle glycogen storage rapidly, and seems to be maintainable as far as results. It also doesn't dry you out at all, no subq water reduction but there is lipolysis happening. Protein absorption seems to go up as with most AAS, if I'm on an 80+% protein diet I seem to **** like a rabbit. Just a pellet or two every couple of days, and zero bloat, zero stored waste in the gut.

I remember this being the first thing I took this year that's really really worked. Worked even better than the SARMS I think. Picking up some next payday. Need it bad for this new job. I can't come off ever again. Not while I rip the tires off tractor-trailers and sh1t ten hours a day. I can't afford to get weak like I am right now for even one day. going to run it straight through til I finally muster up the gumption to start pinning again. Then it's going to be beginners cycle v2.0: test C with a DS start and anavar to finish. Was going to use epistane to finish that, but I know it will kill my elbows. Can't have that happening a work, joints already hurt all day.
 

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Alright so one thing I want to throw out there is every single PH, methylated or not, SARM, or any other product that falls under the realm of PEDs and providing your body with a form of exogenous hormones is going to cause suppression of your natural hormone production to some level. I know you have taken MK, which is advertised as a SARM when in fact it is not, but MK does not provide the hormone to your body. MK stimulates the ghrelin receptor which causes your body release multiple pulses of extra growth hormone naturally. PHs and AAS provide an active hormone into your body which is going to cause your body to stop producing testosterone naturally because it's receiving the hormone from a different source. SARMs affect the way your body uptakes hormones which makes the body believe that it is receiving hormones from an exogenous source.

The human body relies on balance. In the science world this is called homeostasis. This means that your body has a natural balance between all hormones. This means as one hormone increases or decreases the other hormones in your body are going to go up or down according in your bodies attempt to find a balance. This is why doing things like getting regular bloodwork done, monitoring the way you feel, and being aware of side effects are very important when you step into the world of PEDs. This all creates a very complicated puzzle that has to be put together. I powerlift myself and dabbled in PHs, both methylated and not, between the ages of 22-32, for reference we are talking two one cycle of each kind. Then this year at 32 I decided to get into competitive powerlifting, joined a powerlifting gym, and jumped on AAS. Honestly considering where you're at I would just keep going at it natty until you're ready to go the AAS route. It's more effective both physically and financially, for example I have seen guys spend more on a single 8 week Andro cycle than I did on a 15 week cycle of two injectable compounds and an oral compound.

Sorry for the short book just want to provide people with the best information possible. If you need any more help just holler there are plenty of guys here willing to chime in with a lot more experience than I have. Hope this has helped.
 

machusenpai

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Alright so one thing I want to throw out there is every single PH, methylated or not, SARM, or any other product that falls under the realm of PEDs and providing your body with a form of exogenous hormones is going to cause suppression of your natural hormone production to some level. I know you have taken MK, which is advertised as a SARM when in fact it is not, but MK does not provide the hormone to your body. MK stimulates the ghrelin receptor which causes your body release multiple pulses of extra growth hormone naturally. PHs and AAS provide an active hormone into your body which is going to cause your body to stop producing testosterone naturally because it's receiving the hormone from a different source. SARMs affect the way your body uptakes hormones which makes the body believe that it is receiving hormones from an exogenous source.

The human body relies on balance. In the science world this is called homeostasis. This means that your body has a natural balance between all hormones. This means as one hormone increases or decreases the other hormones in your body are going to go up or down according in your bodies attempt to find a balance. This is why doing things like getting regular bloodwork done, monitoring the way you feel, and being aware of side effects are very important when you step into the world of PEDs. This all creates a very complicated puzzle that has to be put together. I powerlift myself and dabbled in PHs, both methylated and not, between the ages of 22-32, for reference we are talking two one cycle of each kind. Then this year at 32 I decided to get into competitive powerlifting, joined a powerlifting gym, and jumped on AAS. Honestly considering where you're at I would just keep going at it natty until you're ready to go the AAS route. It's more effective both physically and financially, for example I have seen guys spend more on a single 8 week Andro cycle than I did on a 15 week cycle of two injectable compounds and an oral compound.

Sorry for the short book just want to provide people with the best information possible. If you need any more help just holler there are plenty of guys here willing to chime in with a lot more experience than I have. Hope this has helped.

If only bloodwork weren't super expensive. Otherwise, I don't know how to get one in Canada without having something serious, like a real illness. :/
 
Chados

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I'd say that sarms like S4 is gonna be much safer for the hpta than any pH. Its not gonna add a tremendous size but it can lean you out quite well. A first prohormone would probably be epistane. Extremely to non existent androgenic sides and while not being a mass builder it can add some quality mass. At 22 you should probably wait though but as with everyone on the internet we can't trust them to listen to us.
 
Cgkone

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I'd say that sarms like S4 is gonna be much safer for the hpta than any pH. Its not gonna add a tremendous size but it can lean you out quite well. A first prohormone would probably be epistane. Extremely to non existent androgenic sides and while not being a mass builder it can add some quality mass. At 22 you should probably wait though but as with everyone on the internet we can't trust them to listen to us.
Yeah S4 is totally worth it. People get scared of the vision sides but they go right away and the on feeling is almost identical to Winstrol and other than that there really are no sides
 

machusenpai

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I'd say that sarms like S4 is gonna be much safer for the hpta than any pH. Its not gonna add a tremendous size but it can lean you out quite well. A first prohormone would probably be epistane. Extremely to non existent androgenic sides and while not being a mass builder it can add some quality mass. At 22 you should probably wait though but as with everyone on the internet we can't trust them to listen to us.
I heard epistane wasn't really safe.. On the other hand, I can't touch the S4 as it's related to vision problem and to me this is worse than my test dropping.
 
Renew1

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I heard epistane wasn't really safe.. On the other hand, I can't touch the S4 as it's related to vision problem and to me this is worse than my test dropping.
What have you heard about Epistane not being safe?
 
AnabolicGuru

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Epistane gave me more sides compared msten, dmz, tbol, etc. I personally don’t think it’s as mild as everyone says.
 
Renew1

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Epistane gave me more sides compared msten, dmz, tbol, etc. I personally don’t think it’s as mild as everyone says.
I agree. It was side-heavy for me too. I'd just never heard anyone call it unsafe.
 
Renew1

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Well, it's methylated, and increased tendons/joint injury (because it's a DHT). :(
Ok. I understand.

But if you exclude DHTs and Methylated compounds, that will eliminate most orals.
 

machusenpai

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Ok. I understand.

But if you exclude DHTs and Methylated compounds, that will eliminate most orals.
Well DHT isn't that bad, but powerlifting with dry tendons will lead me to an injury. (Which isn't really what I want :/)
 

machusenpai

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Ok. I understand.

But if you exclude DHTs and Methylated compounds, that will eliminate most orals.
By the way, which blood panel should I get ?

This one?

Estradiol
Follicle-Stimulating Hormone (FSH)
Luteinizing Hormone (LH)
Testosterone, Free (Direct) With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS
Complete Blood Count (CBC) with Differential: (Hematocrit; hemoglobin; mean corpuscular volume (MCV); mean corpuscular hemoglobin (MCH); mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration (MCHC); red cell distribution width (RDW); percentage and absolute differential counts; platelet count; red cell count; white blood cell count; immature granulocytes)
Comprehensive Metabolic Profile (CMP) (includes eGFR): (A:G ratio; albumin, serum; alkaline phosphatase, serum; ALT (SGPT); AST (SGOT); bilirubin, total; BUN; BUN:creatinine ratio; calcium, serum; carbon dioxide, total; chloride, serum; creatinine, serum; globulin, total; glucose, serum; potassium, serum; protein, total, serum; sodium, serum.)
 
Renew1

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By the way, which blood panel should I get ?

This one?

Estradiol
Follicle-Stimulating Hormone (FSH)
Luteinizing Hormone (LH)
Testosterone, Free (Direct) With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS
Complete Blood Count (CBC) with Differential: (Hematocrit; hemoglobin; mean corpuscular volume (MCV); mean corpuscular hemoglobin (MCH); mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration (MCHC); red cell distribution width (RDW); percentage and absolute differential counts; platelet count; red cell count; white blood cell count; immature granulocytes)
Comprehensive Metabolic Profile (CMP) (includes eGFR): (A:G ratio; albumin, serum; alkaline phosphatase, serum; ALT (SGPT); AST (SGOT); bilirubin, total; BUN; BUN:creatinine ratio; calcium, serum; carbon dioxide, total; chloride, serum; creatinine, serum; globulin, total; glucose, serum; potassium, serum; protein, total, serum; sodium, serum.)
It depends upon what all you want to test for....

It would be nice if you could include cholesterol...
 

machusenpai

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It depends upon what all you want to test for....

It would be nice if you could include cholesterol...
Well does a basic blood test before doing PEDS include all I mentioned + cholesterol ?
 
Renew1

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Well does a basic blood test before doing PEDS include all I mentioned + cholesterol ?
People get different tests, based upon cost, and what they want tested.
I would think that is all you would need, unless Im forgetting something.
 
mikeymike85

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Try anavar to get your feet wet. I started messing around with hormones at your age. Trust me when I say this.. i don't know anyone that has only done it once. You will continue to use.
 

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And renew pretty much summarized it up for you; there’s no guarantee that you’ll fully recover or not experience side effects. As far as compound recommendations, I think your best bet would be to just look up different ones and see which one you think you’d like the best. Simple andro stacks are pretty common for starters, and sarms are also becoming pretty popular. I personally started off with designers like epistane, msten, etc.
can you give exaples if the simple andros and the designer stacks?
 
Cgkone

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By inevitable you mean, Test suppression? But yea, I want to keep my testes working for as long as I can without having to pin myself every week.
Like old witch said......your going to use PED at 22yrs. Your going to see that they work, work well, sides are very easily avoided and then your going to find out that injectables are safest, cheapest and work the best leaving the most keepable gains.
Most of us wish we didn't waste time with PH oral cycle. SARMs are cool but could be pricey for the results.
You going through a door that most people dont ever look back from. But its a amazing doors.
 
AnabolicGuru

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I agree. It was side-heavy for me too. I'd just never heard anyone call it unsafe.
Yea me either; most people actually hype it as being one or the better mild steroids put there. I did actually strain my pec on epistane before though
 
Renew1

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Yea me either; most people actually hype it as being one or the better mild steroids put there. I did actually strain my pec on epistane before though
If I ever decide to run it again, I'll try it with Trest. If I can't run it with that, I'll never be able to run it period.
 
AnabolicGuru

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If I ever decide to run it again, I'll try it with Trest. If I can't run it with that, I'll never be able to run it period.
I need ralox next time I run it. Epi makes my nipples itchyyyy lmfao
 
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If I ever decide to run it again, I'll try it with Trest. If I can't run it with that, I'll never be able to run it period.
I actually think epistane was one of the least noticible orals when it comes to sides I've ever used. I know at least 3 people in real life who ran it 10 years ago without prior experience to aas and had no problems. This was without any test base too.

I do feel that highly anabolic steroids with low androgenic actually can make some people feel worse while others always gets androgenic sides.. I think I'm the later
 

machusenpai

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I think I might just run MK-2866 for starter, as I already have some...and also because it's the mildest. Next, I need to know if I should take a clomid/nolva or just something like arimistane when doing my PCT? Because, if it's only a mild suppresion like everyone that has tried Ostarine, then a SERM would likely cause more bad than good, no?
 
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I think I might just run MK-2866 for starter, as I already have some...and also because it's the mildest. Next, I need to know if I should take a clomid/nolva or just something like arimistane when doing my PCT? Because, if it's only a mild suppresion like everyone that has tried Ostarine, then a SERM would likely cause more bad than good, no?
You can run a serm at low dosage like nolva at 10mg.. The perfect scenario would be to get bloods and see if you're actually shut down.
 

machusenpai

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You can run a serm at low dosage like nolva at 10mg.. The perfect scenario would be to get bloods and see if you're actually shut down.
This is probably what I will do by the way,I might need help with the PCT. Because, everyone seems to have a different opinion. Anyway, what should I get before starting my cycle? Also, SERM tend to cause permanent blindness or permanent damage to the retina. Just in case something go bad and I end up with gyno or some ****. What natural products should I run during my cycle and during my PCT? I plan on running low dose MK-2866 (10-15mg).
 
Chados

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This is probably what I will do by the way,I might need help with the PCT. Because, everyone seems to have a different opinion. Anyway, what should I get before starting my cycle? Also, SERM tend to cause permanent blindness or permanent damage to the retina. Just in case something go bad and I end up with gyno or some ****. What natural products should I run during my cycle and during my PCT? I plan on running low dose MK-2866 (10-15mg).
How long will you the the cycle? I don't know if its permanent damage.. I think you're talking about clomid? I know for sure that studies with nolva and torem only suggested hot flashes as side effects. Clomid the first time I took it made my eyes a little sleepy.. You know that feeling when you've been sleeping too much and you're not really tired but eyes are heavy?

That never happened again to me but people mention floaters very often with clomid.

I just take omega 3, cla cause I got a bottle for free and never used it if my memory is Correct. You could add milk thistle which is just an overkill in my opinion but to each their own. There are many good things you can take but 10 to 15mg of ostarine really shouldn't be anything to worry about if you don't run it extremely long
 

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I plan to run it either 6-8 weeks (as 4 weeks won't be enough to saturate my androgen receptors), also I already bought liver supports, Oméga 3 & I just need DAA, already got the ZMA and B12. With a little nolva on the side if I ever get sides, I'll take a low dose. Does that sounds correct or I should really take a low dose no matter what to prevent rebound or I could run a suicide AI like arimistane ?
 
mikeymike85

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DAA is worthless. If you are looking for a test booster, run MTest
 

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DAA is worthless. If you are looking for a test booster, run MTest
Well..it's the only one that has study to prove that it has an impact on testosterone (alongside Zinc, magnesium, B6, acid folic)
 
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On the ARA, do you have to take it on your days off or just on your workout days. If you don't take it on your off days do you lose mass?
 

machusenpai

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Studies on people with normal T-levels found that DAA has no effect in resistance trained men.

Some other ingredients like ashwagandha, tongkat ali, and forskolin have more promising research really.
So there is no supplement that can assist testosterone during a PCT beside drugs like Clomid/Nolva, etc ?
 

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