Run a SERM throughout cycle...

CatSnake

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Please don't be done yet. This is a thought provoking discussion. We need these types of conversations until there's a monster controlled study on men who are shut down by steroid use and then compare a multitude of treatment approaches.
I think his argument is unraveling pretty quickly...

he just posted: "Now I cycle TRT -- 8 weeks (somtimes with 10-20 mg/day var, always with torem) and then 8 weeks on torem monotherapy @ 60 mg/day with a tiny dose of exemestane or Proviron"

he's basically on toremifine all the time, and is telling everybody else not to do PCT....

aside from that fact, he has yet to prove that tore is stronger than nolva or clomid (which I think I gave a pretty good amount of information that shows otherwise), which is what most of his theory hinges on.

his bloodwork would be interesting to see, but at the same time, it's just an anonymous guy's word on the internet what he was taking at the time of the draw.... so not really worth much when added in to his low-information debate.
 

Spurfy

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Crisler usually recommends preg/dhea/hcg to supplement trt. Youre saying fuk that, torem kills those three birds with one stone?
Yes.

Ask our friend above. He's on TRT and felt like garbage. Raloxifene, the weakest HPG-axis SERM of all, mostly fixed him in a few days.
 

Spurfy

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I think his argument is unraveling pretty quickly...

he just posted: "Now I cycle TRT -- 8 weeks (somtimes with 10-20 mg/day var, always with torem) and then 8 weeks on torem monotherapy @ 60 mg/day with a tiny dose of exemestane or Proviron"

he's basically on toremifine all the time, and is telling everybody else not to do PCT....

aside from that fact, he has yet to prove that tore is stronger than nolva or clomid (which I think I gave a pretty good amount of information that shows otherwise), which is what most of his theory hinges on.

his bloodwork would be interesting to see, but at the same time, it's just an anonymous guy's word on the internet what he was taking at the time of the draw.... so not really worth much when added in to his low-information debate.
Now, I cycle TRT and torem.

Previously, I did not.

How is this hard?
 

Spurfy

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I retract everything stated in this thread. I'm a huge liar. I've never even used a SERM. Also, don't run a SERM on cycle, it will turn you into a pumpkin. Also, toremifene sucks.

I'm done.
 

Nac

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This was never going to be an easy sell.

The idea either needs more successful anecdote/bloods performed in a wider variety of conditions; endos prescribing it in a trt setting; relevant studies.
 
rascal14

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I will definitely be giving Torem a go after I get blood work next. Estrogen has been high I'm sure because I've had real sensitive nipples and Test was low 500s last I got it checked. Clomid makes me feel like death.
 

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This was an interesting thread. The study posted about clomid being used to prevent LH and FSH levels from dropping in conditions that would otherwise make them drop is one thing, but to take that and say it would apply to tore is a little bold. Not to say the results would or wouldn't be the same, but they are not the same compound. The study would be validated a little more if larger amount of test was used. I understand that they already reached a point of test administration that reduces LH and FSH, but replicating conditions that would be found in a real test cycle would be ideal.

Sadly, I have not seen a study that was solely focused on conditions found in bodybuilders, but are centered around what should normally occur in the body. There are not enough of these studies out there and when other researchers are not duplicating the same efforts to substantiate or prove something wrong, you can only rely so much on the accuracy
 

Spurfy

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This was an interesting thread. The study posted about clomid being used to prevent LH and FSH levels from dropping in conditions that would otherwise make them drop is one thing, but to take that and say it would apply to tore is a little bold. Not to say the results would or wouldn't be the same, but they are not the same compound. The study would be validated a little more if larger amount of test was used. I understand that they already reached a point of test administration that reduces LH and FSH, but replicating conditions that would be found in a real test cycle would be ideal.

Sadly, I have not seen a study that was solely focused on conditions found in bodybuilders, but are centered around what should normally occur in the body. There are not enough of these studies out there and when other researchers are not duplicating the same efforts to substantiate or prove something wrong, you can only rely so much on the accuracy
You all can keep waiting for a study that's never coming, instead of just giving something a try, and I'll keep doing what I've been doing, because it works.
 
50Magnum

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Reviving this thread. Interesting study done on men receiving TRT.
I found the reduction TT quite interesting, albeit a high P-value.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022534718421787
yeah wtf; its possible that the TT while running injectable went down because of the torem than it would normally do? Very very interesting regardless. I have yet to see Spurfy actually post pre blood and post blood 2 months after his last cycle. Someone who has been cycling for years; I would def like to see what his bloods look like 2-4 months after pct. If he is in range as pre bloods or higher than theres no doubt his HPTA never got ****ed.
 
NoAddedHmones

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yeah wtf; its possible that the TT while running injectable went down because of the torem than it would normally do? Very very interesting regardless. I have yet to see Spurfy actually post pre blood and post blood 2 months after his last cycle. Someone who has been cycling for years; I would def like to see what his bloods look like 2-4 months after pct. If he is in range as pre bloods or higher than theres no doubt his HPTA never got ****ed.
Lol he started posting on another forum in April this year under a different name, referring to spurfy’s posts, but as soon as someone questioned the legitimacy of the claims made, the poster attacked in the exact way Spurfy did...
 
Cscott622

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I couldnt load the link. Anyone care to sum it up
 
50Magnum

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I couldnt load the link. Anyone care to sum it up
Basically ones total T was reduced while taking Toremifene with TRT. In a way I can see that happening hard to explain; but I do hear running HCG with TRT doses will raise total T levels up since it mimics the LH to keep producing testosterone naturally through your body obviously that all ends when you come back off; but at least your balls won't atrophy.
 

CatSnake

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maybe due to an increase in SHBG and E2, which would normally go up by adding a SERM....
 
RickyBlobby

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maybe due to an increase in SHBG and E2, which would normally go up by adding a SERM....
SHBG should have a significant impact on free testosterone, not total. Makes no sense to me?
 

CatSnake

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SHBG should have a significant impact on free testosterone, not total. Makes no sense to me?
good point.

the rise in E2 does not account for the significant drop in total testosterone, either.....

ordinarily, I'd wonder if it was due to some effect on cholesterol metabolism, and the effect it has as a building block on androgen production. however, here they are injecting their own androgens anyway....


.
 

Spurfy

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Lol he started posting on another forum in April this year under a different name, referring to spurfy’s posts, but as soon as someone questioned the legitimacy of the claims made, the poster attacked in the exact way Spurfy did...
Nope, not me. I only use this username, and I'm not a member of any other forums that I'm aware of.

The reason I will not ever post bloods is because I want people to do their own experiments, just as I did. I have no interest in being a steroid guru and I have no interest in helping people who aren't willing to at least try to think outside of the box and be open to possibilities that challenge dogma and established broscience. Those people deserve to not benefit from new methods that work.There is literally zero harm in running a SERM on cycle, and at a minimum, a benefit of improved lipids, but most people won't even try it because "it can't possibly work and if it did we'd already be doing it" So, fu ck those people. Closed-minded people get what they get, and are everything that's wrong with the world today, and I will not lift a finger to help them in any manner.
 
NoAddedHmones

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Nope, not me. I only use this username, and I'm not a member of any other forums that I'm aware of.

The reason I will not ever post bloods is because I want people to do their own experiments, just as I did. I have no interest in being a steroid guru and I have no interest in helping people who aren't willing to at least try to think outside of the box and be open to possibilities that challenge dogma and established broscience. Those people deserve to not benefit from new methods that work.There is literally zero harm in running a SERM on cycle, and at a minimum, a benefit of improved lipids, but most people won't even try it because "it can't possibly work and if it did we'd already be doing it" So, fu ck those people. Closed-minded people get what they get, and are everything that's wrong with the world today.
Welcome back - I am actually going to be giving your protocol a go in a couple of weeks, with pre mid and post bloods included!
 

Spurfy

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I've been trying to get that full study and see what their actual T levels were, before and after the study. can you find that anywhere?

I'm still amazed by that 292 ng drop....
The P value (0.78) for TT makes this number meaningless -- the sample size for this group is 34. This could have come from dosage adjustments, guys forgetting to inject, guys dropping AIs, testing during trough, whatever.

The point is, this 292 number is statistical noise and utterly meaningless, and with a P value of 0.78, it's 15.6x more likely to be random chance than an actual effect of treatment.
 

CatSnake

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The P value (0.78) for TT makes this number meaningless -- the sample size for this group is 34. This could have come from dosage adjustments, guys forgetting to inject, guys dropping AIs, testing during trough, whatever.

The point is, this 292 number is statistical noise and utterly meaningless, and with a P value of 0.78, it's 15.6x more likely to be random chance than an actual effect of treatment.
then the rest of the effects are also meaningless, right?
 

CatSnake

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SHBG should have a significant impact on free testosterone, not total. Makes no sense to me?
I've been kicking around the idea that the change is somehow connected to the toremifene metabolism (via P450). Ideally we'd be able to look at more of the data that they collected in this study, though....
 

Spurfy

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then the rest of the effects are also meaningless, right?
All except the change in HDL, which did reach statistical significance.

It's important to have an understanding of statistics and the concept of significance when interpreting study results.
 
NoAddedHmones

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Day 13

Report: - still waiting for effects.
Day 22: weight up mildly from the start (+1.6lbs), pumps a bit better in the gym but no strength or performance gains.

Been informed by the man himself that my pharma var is bunk hence why im not feeling like a ‘rockstar’. I even offered to buy his amazing god like Var to use for the second half of this run and he became a condescending pr*ck as usual.

Bloods next thurs for at the end of week 4.
 

Spurfy

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Day 22: weight up mildly from the start (+1.6lbs), pumps a bit better in the gym but no strength or performance gains.

Been informed by the man himself that my pharma var is bunk hence why im not feeling like a ‘rockstar’. I even offered to buy his amazing god like Var to use for the second half of this run and he became a condescending pr*ck as usual.

Bloods next thurs for at the end of week 4.
You were literally sent a source.
 
Rostam

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Day 22: weight up mildly from the start (+1.6lbs), pumps a bit better in the gym but no strength or performance gains.

Been informed by the man himself that my pharma var is bunk hence why im not feeling like a ‘rockstar’. I even offered to buy his amazing god like Var to use for the second half of this run and he became a condescending pr*ck as usual.

Bloods next thurs for at the end of week 4.
Any update on your results?
 

Jeg323

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Interesting stuff. One thing I haven't seen brought up in this particular thread is the issue of IGF-1 suppression, which some small studies (not necessarily conclusive) have raised. This one hits on the acute effects of a 60 mg dose of toremifene, although it's unclear what would happen to IGF-1 and IGFBP1 levels in the long run.

Effects of Toremifene, a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, on Spontaneous and Stimulated GH Secretion, IGF-I, and IGF-Binding Proteins in Healthy Elderly Subjects, J Endocr Soc. 2018 Feb 1; 2(2): 154–165, doi: 10.1210/js.2017-00457

"Toremifene did not enhance pulsatile or stimulated GH secretion, but decreased IGF-I by 20% in men and women... An IGF-I–lowering effect has been noted in a few other SERM studies. Tamoxifen in a 20-mg dose lowers serum IGF-I in men and women, but raloxifene seems to have a lesser action (14% vs 20% to 25% in tamoxifen reports) and only at a high dose in women, but not in men...In this study, toremifene increased IGFBP1 levels by 1.4- and 1.5-fold in men and women, respectively, during treatment with toremifene."

Maybe a protocol of running low dose naltrexone to "knock the dust off" the GnRH pulse generator in the hypothalamus and keep LH/FSH going would be ideal? This could be supplemented with N2Generate or another good source of fadogia extract to keep the LH pulses stimulating the Leydig cells and preventing testicular atrophy.
 

Spurfy

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Maybe a protocol of running low dose naltrexone to "knock the dust off" the GnRH pulse generator in the hypothalamus and keep LH/FSH going would be ideal? This could be supplemented with N2Generate or another good source of fadogia extract to keep the LH pulses stimulating the Leydig cells and preventing testicular atrophy.
LDN won't cut it -- you've got to run the full 50 mg. LDN has a half life of 6 hours and has never been shown to increase LH//FSH, unlike naltrexone at the standard 50 mg dose, which reliably has.

I ran a brutal cycle which should have shut me down hard (TE 300-600 mg/wk, NPP 600 mg/week, Mast E/P 200-600 mg/week) and I *know* I was not shutdown or really even suppressed, this was with Clomid 25 mg/day and naltrexone at 25-50 mg/day. I wasn't able to get blood work, and my cycle got cut short on week 10, but I know for a certainty that Clomid and NTX not only prevented the shutdown, but actually improved my gains.

But...

E2 control is *the* most critical factor in determining degree of suppression/shutdown. The 20% lowering of IGF-1 from SERMs? Who cares. This study was done in average people, not lifters, and any (especially oral) anabolics are going to crank up IGF-1 production anyway. Add this to the fact that we're usually taking in a large surplus of calories (which itself elevates IGF-1 significantly), and I just don't see any problems here.

That said, I now believe that there's a genetic polymorphism present which explains why SERMs on cycle for some guys don't work.

I still think the SERM/NTX combo is very good. Next round I'm going to run SERM/hCG/NTX with TE/NPP/Mast/Var, hopefully around July if I heal up well and this PT keeps working.
 

CatSnake

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…….wasn't able to get bloodwork, again.
 
BennyMagoo79

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My last bloodwork post PCT after a trest & sarms cycle, and the first one I have run low doses clomid through the cycle, and test was much better than at the same period after previous cycles (14.8nmol this time compared with 10.something for last couple of cycles). I have to say, I did feel better during the cycle and nuts came back faster than usual during PCT.
 
Metalingus

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I'm considering running BLR Rebirth through my Superdrol cycle.

It'll probably be a waste of time and money and likely isn't strong or effective enough to make any difference at all, but with its SERM-like qualities I can't help but think it's worth a little experiment.
 

Fartknocker

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I'm considering running BLR Rebirth through my Superdrol cycle.

It'll probably be a waste of time and money and likely isn't strong or effective enough to make any difference at all, but with its SERM-like qualities I can't help but think it's worth a little experiment.
I have a bottle of rebirth laying around and i was toying with using it on cycle next run. Im in for the expiriment too
 

jrock645

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I have a bottle of rebirth laying around and i was toying with using it on cycle next run. Im in for the expiriment too
Im finishing a bottle of rebirth a couple weeks post SERM. Between that and sustain, the smoothest pct ive ever had.
 
Rostam

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Im finishing a bottle of rebirth a couple weeks post SERM. Between that and sustain, the smoothest pct ive ever had.
Did you take the rebirth on cycle and pct also? did you take any SERM on cycle?
 

jrock645

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Did you take the rebirth on cycle and pct also? did you take any SERM on cycle?
I took torem on cycle. Can’t say I noticed much, felt like garbage- ended the cycle at 4 weeks instead of the 6 I’d planned for.

Took clomid and nolva for pct, with sustain alpha starting day 1, and rebirth starting 2 weeks into pct. so I’m 6 weeks post cycle at this point. Will do bloodwork in a couple weeks, but this is the best I’ve felt in pct ever.
 

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