Respect Caffeine! It's dangerous!

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

I've have heard this a lot.

Using a similar thought process one might argue that we could reduce automobile and motorcycle tickets and fines (and insurance increases arising therefrom) by taking down all speed limit signs and stopping the enforcement of speeding limits. If we were to do so, the symptoms (speeding tickets and the cost of enforcement) of the problem would be reduced, but the problem itself (speeding related vehicle accidents, injuries and death) would not also be reduced (and may be worsened). Reducing the crime of speeding would do nothing to reduce the associated costs to society.

That is sort of the way that I view decimalization of drugs. There would be less arrests, but there would be no less (and possibly higher) costs to society. Make sense?

What you've stated does make sense. The only difference I see is that removing the need for a drug dealer or a pusher and letting a legitimate business step in would cause a decline in secondary crimes related to the legalized substance, i.e. rival dealers, turf wars, muggings during drug deals etc.

Now there are certainly still instances where this causes crime simply by having a new business that can be robbed but that is in itself a different issue.

 

[thebigt]

What you've stated does make sense. The only difference I see is that removing the need for a drug dealer or a pusher and letting a legitimate business step in would cause a decline in secondary crimes related to the legalized substance, i.e. rival dealers, turf wars, muggings during drug deals etc.

Now there are certainly still instances where this causes crime simply by having a new business that can be robbed but that is in itself a different issue.

even if the government gives allotment of drug, what happens when the addicts habit exceeds allotment?

 

[Danksta710]

I don't think anyone is saying they want a ban. We can see both sides and how people OD.

Regardless pretty sure the caffeine mafia that controls the world would never let a ban happen. It's pretty obvious at this point.

Studies come out all the time saying how bad energy drinks are. Nothing happens. Nothing ever will.

Doing what Portugal does would work here. It would take time for society to adapt but it would work long term. The legal system would be less clogged up. People would not lose their income due to a unneeded arrest that leads them being fired. Regulation and control of drugs is the answer. Otherwise only the criminals are in charge of them.

There will always be criminal element within a legal market. We have TRT. Lots of us don't get legit scripts.

Decrim would lead to less crime and violence. The cartels would still have power but it would be lessened.

Cops would have to find better things to do than arrest people for drugs. Society would be better off.

 

[Danksta710]

One more thing, use would go down eventually. When things are legal they are not as exciting to people and kids. They found in legal states weed use among kids went down. Weed is not cool. Legal **** is lame. A lot of the appeal of drugs is the fact you aren't allowed to do them. If we had legal heroin it would not suddenly make the masses say "oh I gotta go try that!" A few fools yes, but not the masses.

 

[Beau]

One more thing, use would go down eventually. When things are legal they are not as exciting to people and kids. They found in legal states weed use among kids went down. Weed is not cool. Legal **** is lame. A lot of the appeal of drugs is the fact you aren't allowed to do them. If we had legal heroin it would not suddenly make the masses say "oh I gotta go try that!" A few fools yes, but not the masses.

InB4 discussion of gateway drugs.

I am sure the drug cartels will be shifting away from marijuana distribution to more hard scale drugs.

 

[Danksta710]

InB4 discussion of gateway drugs.

I am sure the drug cartels will be shifting away from marijuana distribution to more hard scale drugs.

Huh? They already are. That's my point. A legal market cuts into theirs. They would still exist but have less power. A legal market would be a clean high purity source as well. It would force the cartels to improve. Cleaner drugs = less death and damage to society.

If we had legal heroin years ago there would be NO fentyl problem. None. That exists because of the drug war.

 

[Beau]

If we had legal heroin years ago we would be worse off than we are now, by a long shot. There are not very many functional heroin addicts.

I understand arguments to the contrary, I just don't agree with them.

INb4 someone alleges that I am some sort of "ist".

 

[Danksta710]

Legal access would make it easier to be functional. Once you are addicted you don't get high. You are just preventing withdrawal. A legal source you can rely on would provide stability. You'd be surprised how many functional opiate addicts we have in society.

Fentyl is crazy deadly. Heroin is safer than people understand. If it was legal there would have been no need for fent analogs from China. That demand was created by the drug war.

 

[thebigt]

Legal access would make it easier to be functional. Once you are addicted you don't get high. You are just preventing withdrawal. A legal source you can rely on would provide stability. You'd be surprised how many functional opiate addicts we have in society.

Fentyl is crazy deadly. Heroin is safer than people understand. If it was legal there would have been no need for fent analogs from China. That demand was created by the drug war.

addiction is a motherfucker i wouldn't wish on anyone.

 

[Whisky]

explain how making heroin legal would lower crime rate

technically you would instantly lose any recorded crime for the possession of drugs (ad it’s no longer illegal)......... so crime rates reduce without anything actually changing

 

[Whisky]

addiction is a motherfucker i wouldn't wish on anyone.

Very much agree

 

[KvanH]

explain how making heroin legal would lower crime rate

technically you would instantly lose any recorded crime for the possession of drugs (ad it’s no longer illegal)......... so crime rates reduce without anything actually changing

First I have to say that I don't really have an opinion on if drugs should be legalized in some parts of the world or not. I can see some of the benefits and ideas behind it and don't think it's outrages or stupid, but is it a good idea in it's entirety? I don't know..

But just to continue a bit what you fellas said here, if heroin is being selled and the market controlled by cartels (I don't know if it is?), then transferring the market to legal market 'should' lower crime rates a lot. If we look at something like Mexico, the harm that the actual drug use has is just a drop in the bucket compared to the harm done by the cartells fighting the law and for the turfs and all the **** they do (not to dismiss the harm drug use does induce to some). It wouldn't really matter if they were selling illegal corn, if it had the same kind of demand, even when being illegal. The competing vodka sellers don't shoot eachother on the streets. But we know how things were during the alcohol prohibition.

I think it comes down to depending on the country, the culture and the present state with drug abuse and illegal market, whether decriminalization or legalazation is to be considered as an option.

 

[Whisky]

First I have to say that I don't really have an opinion on if drugs should be legalized in some parts of the world or not. I can see some of the benefits and ideas behind it and don't think it's outrages or stupid, but is it a good idea in it's entirety? I don't know..

But just to continue a bit what you fellas said here, if heroin is being selled and the market controlled by cartels (I don't know if it is?), then transferring the market to legal market 'should' lower crime rates a lot. If we look at something like Mexico, the harm that the actual drug use has is just a drop in the bucket compared to the harm done by the cartells fighting the law and for the turfs and all the **** they do (not to dismiss the harm drug use does induce to some). It wouldn't really matter if they were selling illegal corn, if it had the same kind of demand, even when being illegal. The competing vodka sellers don't shoot eachother on the streets. But we know how things were during the alcohol prohibition.

I think it comes down to depending on the country, the culture and the present state with drug abuse and illegal market, whether decriminalization or legalazation is to be considered as an option.

yep fair points.

I wasn’t saying whether all drugs should be legalised by the way. I get the arguments for but as a former addict I get the reasons against as well.

I was simply making the point that if you move from something being technically a crime to not technically being a crime then on paper crime rates drop. In the same way that if you made burglary legal, crime rates would drop by whatever number of burglaries are currently recorded as crimes.

 

[KvanH]

yep fair points.

I wasn’t saying whether all drugs should be legalised by the way. I get the arguments for but as a former addict I get the reasons against as well.

I was simply making the point that if you move from something being technically a crime to not technically being a crime then on paper crime rates drop. In the same way that if you made burglary legal, crime rates would drop by whatever number of burglaries are currently recorded as crimes.

To be clear I didn't think you voiced any opinion on the legalization issue there. I just expanded a little on it. Just seemed like you meant that no other effect would be to crime rates than the pretentious lowering of rates when making something illegal legal.

 

[Whisky]

To be clear I didn't think you voiced any opinion on the legalization issue there. I just expanded a little on it. Just seemed like you meant that no other effect would be to crime rates than the pretentious lowering of rates when making something illegal legal.

no I should have set it out a touch clearer. I just wasn’t commenting on the potential impact from the other variables (which I think are many). The would undoubtedly be impacts, I just don’t have a clear view on ultimately what the net outcome would be

 

[KvanH]

no I should have set it out a touch clearer. I just wasn’t commenting on the potential impact from the other variables (which I think are many). The would undoubtedly be impacts, I just don’t have a clear view on ultimately what the net outcome would be

Agreed and I think that's the thing. No one knows. Can only speculate. On either side.

 

[faipdeooiad]

I think that unfortunately the companies using the ridiculous dosages of caffeine aren't going to stop until something bad does happen and leads to the government regulating the levels of caffeine that can be put into the products. I wish that companies would be responsible and do this themselves so it didn't have to lead to more intervention.

The problem is with companies/individuals who aren’t planning on sticking around for too long. Dip into the market with a crazy strong product, get the hype merchants pushing it, sell a bunch and disappear/reformulated downwards. No need to be too sensible if you’re only making a few large batches and then vanishing.

 

[faipdeooiad]

yep fair points.

I wasn’t saying whether all drugs should be legalised by the way. I get the arguments for but as a former addict I get the reasons against as well.

I was simply making the point that if you move from something being technically a crime to not technically being a crime then on paper crime rates drop. In the same way that if you made burglary legal, crime rates would drop by whatever number of burglaries are currently recorded as crimes.

Our Home Secretary tried this as a big victory last year - we went into lockdown in March and in may the government were trumpeting about the place about shoplifting crime having reduced in April by over 95% despite the fact that all but supermarkets and pharmacists were closed.

 

[KvanH]

In this case, it looks like he added powdered caffeine to a pre-workout.

But in general, I think companies are pushing the caffeine doses way too high in pre-workouts now days. There are some that have over 700 mg. of caffeine in them. I personally feel like anything over 300 to 350 mg. is entering into the area of being irresponsible from a company perspective.

Agreed even though I've never looked at it from a health perspective. I hate it when otherwise a good pwo is filled with ridiculous amount of caffeine. There might be some ingridients I'd like to have more of on occasion, but there's no double dosing a product that has 300 mg caffeine in a serving. Even one full serving is on the fence of being counter productive.

 

[Power-Lift]

Spent decades using weed, wishing it were legal. Now that its becoming legal, I dont like using it...

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

Spent decades using weed, wishing it were legal. Now that its becoming legal, I dont like using it...

Same here. Well maybe not decades but certainly a number of years!

 

[JeremyNG25]

From the article it looks like he mixed caffeine powder INTO a pre. Blood levels were 329mg/L , 5L in the body, 1645mg caffeine. That's like chugging 5.5 Bangs or Reigns in a row. Insane.

That can’t be right. That amount of caffeine would not kill you. That’s not a lethal dose. Not even close edit: a cup of coffee is 75 mg caffeine roughly. He ingested 200 times that. He ingested 15000 mg of caffeine

 

[ValiantThor08]

That can’t be right. That amount of caffeine would not kill you. That’s not a lethal dose. Not even close edit: a cup of coffee is 75 mg caffeine roughly. He ingested 200 times that. He ingested 15000 mg of caffeine

According to how much caffeine was in his blood, his calculation was correct.

 

[thebigt]

no I should have set it out a touch clearer. I just wasn’t commenting on the potential impact from the other variables (which I think are many). The would undoubtedly be impacts, I just don’t have a clear view on ultimately what the net outcome would be

liberals=good intentions with unintended consequences...

 

[Whisky]

Spent decades using weed, wishing it were legal. Now that its becoming legal, I dont like using it...

haha, yeah I was similar back in my younger years.

I don’t think the uk will legalise anytime soon anyway but even if they did I wouldn’t use it again. I stopped not for legality but for the fact I was lazy AF and achieved very little in my life. At least on coke and booze I was progressing my career (albeit slower than when I stopped).

 

[thebigt]

Legal access would make it easier to be functional. Once you are addicted you don't get high. You are just preventing withdrawal. A legal source you can rely on would provide stability. You'd be surprised how many functional opiate addicts we have in society.

Fentyl is crazy deadly. Heroin is safer than people understand. If it was legal there would have been no need for fent analogs from China. That demand was created by the drug war.

i could imagine close to this same argument being made during prohibition......the demand was started by vets returning from vietnam and the youth movement of the 60s and 70s---look at what is going on today, you see any similarities--i do.

history DOES repeat itself.

 

[Danksta710]

i could imagine close to this same argument being made during prohibition......the demand was started by vets returning from vietnam and the youth movement of the 60s and 70s---look at what is going on today, you see any similarities--i do.

history DOES repeat itself.

Not sure what you are trying to say. You think prohibition is a good thing?

 

[thebigt]

Not sure what you are trying to say. You think prohibition is a good thing?

c'mon man...

why in the hell would i think something that has been over since 1933 be a good thing?

 

[Danksta710]

Ok fair enough. Still don't get the point you are trying to make.

 

[thebigt]

Ok fair enough. Still don't get the point you are trying to make.

the point is that history repeats itself and that there are many lessons we could learn and mistakes that could be avoided.

 

[JeremyNG25]

According to how much caffeine was in his blood, his calculation was correct.

he ingested 200 times the caffeine in an amount of coffee. How can you ingest 200 times the amount of caffeine in coffee and at the same time consume less than 2 grams of caffeine? The 2 contradict themselves. There is an error somewhere. The LD50 for caffeine is 10000 mg

 

[tyga tyga]

he ingested 200 times the caffeine in an amount of coffee. How can you ingest 200 times the amount of caffeine in coffee and at the same time consume less than 2 grams of caffeine? The 2 contradict themselves. There is an error somewhere. The LD50 for caffeine is 10000 mg

I ca tell you that 10 GRAMS of caffeine is not the lethal dose lol it’s much lower lol

*im working on the assumption that we’re talking about bolus dose, not spread out through the day*

 

[Whisky]

I can’t tell you that 10 GRAMS of caffeine is not the lethal dose lol it’s much lower lol

*im working on the assumption that we’re talking about bolus dose, not spread out through the day*

the lethal dose is stated at approximately 10g (bolus dose) but like anything it can vary person to person.

most people would struggle to ingest enough through actual caffeinated drinks (like alcohol where it’s surprisingly hard to drink enough to die as you’d normally vomit and pass out first).

 

[KvanH]

the lethal dose is stated at approximately 10g (bolus dose) but like anything it can vary person to person.

most people would struggle to ingest enough through actual caffeinated drinks (like alcohol where it’s surprisingly hard to drink enough to die as you’d normally vomit and pass out first).

Yeah, that would be 125 Redbulls (the 0.25 l)

 

[Whisky]

Yeah, that would be 125 Redbulls (the 0.25 l)

I’m a massive coffee fan and like stims generally (and I tolerate them well). I’ve had days where I’ve had 1.5-2g by 2-3pm in the afternoon on many occasions but at that point my body would be letting me know not to take any more. And that’s a long long way off lethal

 

[thebigt]

the lethal dose is stated at approximately 10g (bolus dose) but like anything it can vary person to person.

most people would struggle to ingest enough through actual caffeinated drinks (like alcohol where it’s surprisingly hard to drink enough to die as you’d normally vomit and pass out first).

everclear?

i saw where they dc'ed bacardi 151, it was popular back in my high school days-a half pint and a couple of rorer 714s and good to go, lol.

 

[Anabaholic]

In this case, it looks like he added powdered caffeine to a pre-workout.

But in general, I think companies are pushing the caffeine doses way too high in pre-workouts now days. There are some that have over 700 mg. of caffeine in them. I personally feel like anything over 300 to 350 mg. is entering into the area of being irresponsible from a company perspective.

Remember when 300mg in a preworkout was considered crazy and pushing the limits? Now it's the normal minimum you see.
I use caffeine powder all the time though, just weight out 100-200mg on my scale and add it into bcaas or some juice, not a big coffee guy and it's cheaper than energy drinks or using pre's for a pick me up.

 

[Whisky]

everclear?

i saw where they dc'ed bacardi 151, it was popular back in my high school days-a half pint and a couple of rorer 714s and good to go, lol.

yeah when absinthe came out in a few bars you had to sign a disclaimer and they only serve 1-2 per person but even with that or something like pastis 51 I never saw anyone come close to actual death (and we did some stupid ****, my party truck was the strawpedo with a half litre of whisky for example)

a mate had his stomach pumped once but that was it.

 

[thebigt]

yeah when absinthe came out in a few bars you had to sign a disclaimer and they only serve 1-2 per person but even with that or something like pastis 51 I never saw anyone come close to actual death (and we did some stupid ****, my party truck was the strawpedo with a half litre of whisky for example)

a mate had his stomach pumped once but that was it.

when we went on long cruises they would give us a order sheet to buy a gallon of duty free booze...when you gave them the money they gave us a chit. when we got back in port all the booze would be on the hanger bay. you gave them the chit then had to leave with the gallon of booze...since most of us lived on board ship this meant going to hotels. my ship had over 6000 on board-give military id to check into hotel and they knew they could recover damages from the ship-take out of pay...we used to take over the surfside hotel in norfolk virginia and fill sinks and bathtubs full of booze and go from room to room with plastic cups...we piled mattresses in parking lot and used to dive from 3rd floor....this was late 70s, bet they have craked down by now, lol...

and no one ever died from too much booze.

 

[tyga tyga]

the lethal dose is stated at approximately 10g (bolus dose) but like anything it can vary person to person.

most people would struggle to ingest enough through actual caffeinated drinks (like alcohol where it’s surprisingly hard to drink enough to die as you’d normally vomit and pass out first).

Isn’t “LD50” the lethal dose to kill half a population?

 

[Whisky]

Isn’t “LD50” the lethal dose to kill half a population?

yeah that’s my understanding

I think caffeine is bodyweight dependant though so when you look at the average weight of a population nowadays that probably drags it up a touch.....

 

[delsolrob]

Skimming through - caffeine poisoning is becoming more and more common - particularly as caffeine is being added to all sorts of things (BCAA's are a good example).

One of the concerns I have is when I constantly see posts from people looking for the strongest pre workout. This addiction to stimulants isn't healthy, and often counterproductive to training performance. I know people who have a pre workout 30 minutes before the gym and then pound a bang or reign in the gym parking lot.

 

[ValiantThor08]

he ingested 200 times the caffeine in an amount of coffee. How can you ingest 200 times the amount of caffeine in coffee and at the same time consume less than 2 grams of caffeine? The 2 contradict themselves. There is an error somewhere. The LD50 for caffeine is 10000 mg

I see there is a contradiction in the article. The amount of caffeine is based on the he toxicology report though. And someone could die on less than 10g of caffeine. Lethal dose may mean a general lethal dose. Someone might die at less than 10 grams. I know when taking 400mg caffeine at one time, it can cause some negative side effects, even heart palpitations. Cannot imagine what taking 2g at one time would feel like.

 

[Whisky]

I see there is a contradiction in the article. The amount of caffeine is based on the he toxicology report though. And someone could die on less than 10g of caffeine. Lethal dose may mean a general lethal dose. Someone might die at less than 10 grams. I know when taking 400mg caffeine at one time, it can cause some negative side effects, even heart palpitations. Cannot imagine what taking 2g at one time would feel like.

 

[sns8778]

Skimming through - caffeine poisoning is becoming more and more common - particularly as caffeine is being added to all sorts of things (BCAA's are a good example).

One of the concerns I have is when I constantly see posts from people looking for the strongest pre workout. This addiction to stimulants isn't healthy, and often counterproductive to training performance. I know people who have a pre workout 30 minutes before the gym and then pound a bang or reign in the gym parking lot.

I don't have a problem at all with caffeine being added into aminos though bc 95% of the general population does only use one product pre-workout. And whether they choose something like our Energized Aminos, ON's Amino Energy, etc., those products are pretty low caffeine compared to most other pre-workouts.

But I do agree overall that caffeine is being added into too many different things - a good example - I picked up a stick pack to flavor water with and usually use two of that brand and one of the new flavors has 65 mg. per pack and I was like what the hell - I usually mix the old flavors in a bottle of water to keep by my bed while I sleep.

I think we've hit a point where some people looking for the 'strongest pre-workout' are really looking more for a euphoric type drug feel than actual workout assistance. Almost like there are legal pre-workouts, pre-workouts that contain illegal ingredients that still function as pre-workouts, and then products that are just meant to give you more of a drug like feel for the day than having anything to do with pre-workout benefits.

I'm a pretty personal choice/personal responsibility type of guy so the problem with it that I have isn't with what the people want to take them for. To each their own. My worry is that those that are basically being called pre-workouts that really aren't are going to wind up making the wrath of the FDA come down and overreact and hurt all the legitimate companies/products that people really do enjoy for pre-workout purposes.

 

[JeremyNG25]

I see there is a contradiction in the article. The amount of caffeine is based on the he toxicology report though. And someone could die on less than 10g of caffeine. Lethal dose may mean a general lethal dose. Someone might die at less than 10 grams. I know when taking 400mg caffeine at one time, it can cause some negative side effects, even heart palpitations. Cannot imagine what taking 2g at one time would feel like.

Either way it’s just very sad. I don’t touch caffeine powder. It’s just an absolutely avoidable death and that guy had a wife and kids..can’t imagine what they’re going through

 

[sns8778]

Either way it’s just very sad. I don’t touch caffeine powder. It’s just an absolutely avoidable death and that guy had a wife and kids..can’t imagine what they’re going through

I admire your post. That was my first thought as well - that regardless of individual of the opinion about the legality of caffeine powder, I felt sadness for his family.

 

[ValiantThor08]

Either way it’s just very sad. I don’t touch caffeine powder. It’s just an absolutely avoidable death and that guy had a wife and kids..can’t imagine what they’re going through

Absolutely. And a couple weeks ago I told some people caffeine powder can be dangerous than Kratom for the very fact of what happened to that personal trainer. And I'm sure he wasn't a stupid individual. Anyone can make a mistake. And it can be fatal. Hate seeing articles like that because it is very sad when you think about it.