Respect Caffeine! It's dangerous!

[Cheeky Monkey]

source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9418639/Personal-trainer-29-died-caffeine-toxicity-drinking-pre-workout-shake-inquest-hears.html

This personal trainer (29 years old) took a pre-workout concoction which apparently had 200x the amount of caffeine in a regular cup of coffee. He died as a result of it.

 

[Wallet55]

I mean this is sad but kind of dumb, any substance has a toxic threshold (LD50)..I wonder what he was expecting to happen taking such a high dose

 

[ValiantThor08]

So the pre workout mix had an astronomical amount of caffeine in it. That's a big lawsuit against the company if they messed up how much caffeine is in the tub. That's a huge screw up. Imagine if they have multiple tubs that are like that. Wish they would name the pre workout.

 

[alvin1]

From what I am reading it might be pure caffeine powder rather than a pre mix one. There was another case of a men using bulk caffeine powder that over does on it not that long ago.

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

So the pre workout mix had an astronomical amount of caffeine in it. That's a big lawsuit against the company if they messed up how much caffeine is in the tub. That's a huge screw up. Imagine if they have multiple tubs that are like that. Wish they would name the pre workout.

yeah its most likely a whole batch .. hopefully didnt sell too much

 

[ValiantThor08]

From what I am reading it might be pure caffeine powder rather than a pre mix one. There was another case of a men using bulk caffeine powder that over does on it not that long ago.

But it says pre workout with caffeine in the article. If that's the case, multiple people may drop dead.

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

From the article it looks like he mixed caffeine powder INTO a pre. Blood levels were 329mg/L , 5L in the body, 1645mg caffeine. That's like chugging 5.5 Bangs or Reigns in a row. Insane.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

I have a strong disrespect for companies that sell bulk caffeine powder. Caffeine in high enough doses is potentially fatal, and having a bulk powder, any idiot without scales can measure it incorrectly and end up in serious trouble.

CSPI asks FDA to ban powdered caffeine sold as a dietary supplement

The Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI) has sent a petition to federal regulators seeking the ban of pure, powdered caffeine that is packaged and sold as a dietary supplement. Because of the product’s extreme potency, the possibility of accidental overdose poses a clear and present...

www.nutraingredients-usa.com

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

Too much of pretty much anything can kill you.

Any vitamin.

Water.

Air.

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

How do you feel about all the liquids and powders that the site sponsors offer? Imagine what 6-12 times the dosage of modaf would do...

 

[ValiantThor08]

Found another article. He mixed caffeine powder with his ore workout. Calculated he had almost 2g caffeine. Wonder if they could of saved him had they known before the toxicology report it was caffeine toxicity. I've seen a couple stories were some guys had taken more caffeine than him, and lived because they knew what was wrong.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

How do you feel about all the liquids and powders that the site sponsors offer? Imagine what 6-12 times the dosage of modaf would do...

Yeah, but the people who use those know the dosages. They have scales and oral syringes and things and know how to measure it. To measure out caffeine properly you need a miligram scale, which is expensive, and often caffeine powder is bought by people who don't have that type of equipment.

People tend to think it’s harmless because they’re so familiar with it. I mean, we get caffeine in our favorite beverages like our morning coffee, sodas, warm drinks like tea and hot chocolate, and also in many common foods. It’s a pick-me-up. It quick-starts our day and lifts us out of those afternoon doldrums.

But a mere tablespoon of the trendy powder is a lethal dose for an adult. It’s the equivalent of drinking over six gallons of coffee. You will likely fall into a comma or seizure before you certainly die of cardiac arrest brought on by the adrenaline caffeine releases. A typical 100-gram package of caffeine powder purchased online is the equivalent of over 1200 Energy Drinks or 300 cans of soda. It is so lethal and so easy to overdose on that the FDA advised consumers about a year ago to avoid it altogether.

Caffeine Powder Effects | Caffeine Powder Overdose Deaths

Pure caffeine powder be found everywhere. Caffeine powder can be purchased online, and is commonly found alongside vitamins, supplements, & fitness drinks.

www.advancedbio-treatment.com

Few would suspect such deadly effects from caffeine, a chemical consumed daily by more than eight in 10 Americans in coffee, tea and other beverages.[6] But the caffeine in these beverages is so diluted that it is nearly impossible to get a lethal dose by drinking too much. For example, to get a lethal amount, an adult would have to drink 55 eight-ounce cups of Starbucks coffee, a mind-boggling volume.[7],[8]

Yet at high concentrations, caffeine quickly becomes deadly. Powdered pure caffeine, the product that devastated two families last summer, is highly lethal. Just one teaspoon of the product is enough to kill a child, and one tablespoon can kill an adult.[9]

The dose typically recommended on the packaging of powdered pure caffeine is 200 milligrams per serving.[10] To measure this tiny amount, customers must have a digital gram weight scale or a measuring spoon that is sized to one-sixteenth of a teaspoon.[11],[12] It is easy to become confused and add too much, which appears to be what happened to Stiner and Sweatt.

Caffeine That Kills - Public Citizen

Health Letter, September 2015Sarah Sorscher, J.D., M.P.H A serving size of powdered pure caffeine is just a rounded1/32 of a teaspoon, pictured here. A tablespoon is enough to kill an adult.Image: Sarah Sorscher

www.citizen.org

Caffeine as a powder is too deadly to have on the market. It should only be in pills and tablets.

You can search Google and find countless cases of people who OD'd on incredibly small doses of caffeine powder.

Deaths by caffeine powder

 

[sns8778]

In this case, it looks like he added powdered caffeine to a pre-workout.

But in general, I think companies are pushing the caffeine doses way too high in pre-workouts now days. There are some that have over 700 mg. of caffeine in them. I personally feel like anything over 300 to 350 mg. is entering into the area of being irresponsible from a company perspective.

 

[Wallet55]

Yeah, but the people who use those know the dosages. They have scales and oral syringes and things and know how to measure it. To measure out caffeine properly you need a miligram scale, which is expensive, and often caffeine powder is bought by people who don't have that type of equipment.

Caffeine Powder Effects | Caffeine Powder Overdose Deaths

Pure caffeine powder be found everywhere. Caffeine powder can be purchased online, and is commonly found alongside vitamins, supplements, & fitness drinks.

www.advancedbio-treatment.com

Caffeine That Kills - Public Citizen

Health Letter, September 2015Sarah Sorscher, J.D., M.P.H A serving size of powdered pure caffeine is just a rounded1/32 of a teaspoon, pictured here. A tablespoon is enough to kill an adult.Image: Sarah Sorscher

www.citizen.org

Caffeine as a powder is too deadly to have on the market. It should only be in pills and tablets.

You can search Google and find countless cases of people who OD'd on incredibly small doses of caffeine powder.

Deaths by caffeine powder

I mean who buys caffeine powder without owning a scale, also labels clearly indicate it is dangerous....but I know your hate towards label warnings.
Also your last statement makes no sense "who OD'd on incredibly small doses of caffeine powder." So people who take tabs wouldn't OD on the same small dose? What's the difference between powder and tabs? What's stopping people from popping 10 tabs?

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

I mean who buys caffeine powder without owning a scale, also labels clearly indicate it is dangerous....but I know your hate towards label warnings.

Many, many people. It's available all over the place and you'll see every year college students buying it as a study aid thinking it's cheaper than tablets and OD on it.

Also your last statement makes no sense "who OD'd on incredibly small doses of caffeine powder." So people who take tabs wouldn't OD on the same small dose? What's the difference between powder and tabs? What's stopping people from popping 10 tabs?

That's quite a slippery slope logical fallacy. When people KNOW the dosage, they take that dosage. They don't just suddenly start popping 15 caffeine capsules, because usually they're experienced enough with caffeine (as it's probably the world's most popular drug, they know it from soda, energy drinks, coffee, etc, and that dose is equivalent). With powdered caffeine, they have no idea what the dosage is so they end up in the morgue because they don't know what they're doing.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[Beau]

I have purchased bulk products for years. One of the reasons that we "can't have anything nice" is because some people use things irresponsibly.

A death resulting from any type of OD is terrible. But, as a LONG TIME purchaser/user of bulk products, I resent that I can no longer purchase many products that I used to purchase in bulk - because of someone else's irresponsibility.

 

[Whisky]

I recall something similar happening a few years back when a guy made an error with his scoop size or something like that. Ended up taking 20g instead of 200mg.

I kinda see both sides to this, part of me thinks that there is a definite amount of personal responsibility that has to be applied (because as highlighted above, too much of anything can kill you) but I do think that it should be made harder (in the context of caffeine) for one to take a fatal dose (ie rather than make a mistake you need to do something deliberately stupid). At least with pills it’s clear what the serving size is. It should be clear with a powder but i think genuine error is far more likely in that scenario.

 

[Afi140]

In this case, it looks like he added powdered caffeine to a pre-workout.

But in general, I think companies are pushing the caffeine doses way too high in pre-workouts now days. There are some that have over 700 mg. of caffeine in them. I personally feel like anything over 300 to 350 mg. is entering into the area of being irresponsible from a company perspective.

Agreed. 350/375 is where I top out. I also think bulk caffeine powder should probably be banned; I am normally small government guy but for some reason the powder just seems very easy to overdo it.

 

[Wallet55]

Many, many people. It's available all over the place and you'll see every year college students buying it as a study aid thinking it's cheaper than tablets and OD on it.



That's quite a slippery slope logical fallacy. When people KNOW the dosage, they take that dosage. They don't just suddenly start popping 15 caffeine capsules, because usually they're experienced enough with caffeine (as it's probably the world's most popular drug, they know it from soda, energy drinks, coffee, etc, and that dose is equivalent). With powdered caffeine, they have no idea what the dosage is so they end up in the morgue because they don't know what they're doing.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

That's not a fallacy when youre the one talking about a small dosage, be clearer in what you mean lol. When people KNOW the dosage, yet dont we see people OD on energy drinks which we KNOW the dosage?

Again, the dose makes the poison. The same argument can be made about all research chemicals supplier. Or at least the suppliers could ask for proof of knowledge in terms of chemical handling.

 

[Beau]

In today's legal envorinment, things like this are likely to cause more bulk products to be pulled.

A case that occurred within the past few years: A bulk product distributor (one I use) was held liable when someone died (caffeine OD) after used their product without using any safeguards. The product distributor sold bulk caffeine to a consumer, with the product packaging clearly containing all of the necessary warning about how to administer the product. A third party (a friend of the purchaser, not the purchaser himself) took a large amount of the product without asking the purchaser and without the purchaser's knowledge. The product distributor was held liable, even though it met all of its requirements and despite the fact that the purchaser failed to safeguard it. It was a failure to safeguard the product and the unauthorized use of the product that resulted in the death; but there is no financial incentive to litigate against the purchaser of the product.

This is an example of why we can no longer purchase many excellent products (or purchasing them is very difficult (i.e. guarana and ephedrine).

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

That's not a fallacy when youre the one talking about a small dosage, be clearer in what you mean lol. When people KNOW the dosage, yet dont we see people OD on energy drinks which we KNOW the dosage?

Again, the dose makes the poison. The same argument can be made about all research chemicals supplier. Or at least the suppliers could ask for proof of knowledge in terms of chemical handling.

I don't exactly follow your meaning here.

I lean libertarian on almost everything. If you want to put something in your body, it should be your legal and ethical right to do so.

However, I simply think powdered caffeine is dangerous in and of itself and the government should step in and remove it from the market. I find the arguments for banning it persuasive, and I don't consider it any better or worse than anything else they ban and take away from us.

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

In this case, it looks like he added powdered caffeine to a pre-workout.

But in general, I think companies are pushing the caffeine doses way too high in pre-workouts now days. There are some that have over 700 mg. of caffeine in them. I personally feel like anything over 300 to 350 mg. is entering into the area of being irresponsible from a company perspective.

yeah its getting out of hands what some of these companies are putting in .. caffinee + dmaa smh

i can workout without caffinee all day long, long as i have the pumps

 

[BeardedBreast]

Too much of pretty much anything can kill you.

Any vitamin.

Water.

Air.

Except for your mom...

 

[Beau]

The Government is involved in too many things already. It is expensive, far-reaching, oppressive and is "Nanny-gating" too many things now.

The Government CANNOT and SHOULD NOT step in and assume personal responsibility for the public. Many things are dangerous, but when used as instructed they pose little hazard. Years ago, I nicked my hand with a circular saw. I got stiches. It was my fault (best part of the story is that I came back and finished the project with my bandaged hand prior to the painkiller wearing off). I do not want the Government to step in and make it next to impossible to purchase circular saws, or lawn mowers, or knives, or other things that may cause impending doom to someone. How many people die in accidents that occur while they ride superbikes? A lot probably. Should they be restricted. Nope.

That is what personal responsibility is for. People need to be responsible for their decisions. It isn't as if they sold the caffeine and said "take as much as you want" or mislabeled it as Vitamin C - that would be another matter entirely.

You used to be able to buy all sorts of wonderful prohormones and designer steroids. Just about everything - and much of it in bulk. It was AWESOME.

And then? The Government stepped in to "protect us".

The result? These products are no longer generally available - "because the Government".

No thanks, I prefer to retain my civil liberties, ability to discern how to use things, and the associated responsibility.

But today - everyone is a victim - and we must punish the victimizer and (in this case) consumers in general.

 

[Whisky]

Except for your mom...

wow, that took a turn

 

[Danksta710]

Caffeine is so mainstream common people don't understand the risks. That's why a bulk powder ban is not a bad idea.

We aren't talking some novel stim or roid only well versed folks like us know about. The average person has no idea about all the banned rc stims, etc. The average person from a young age was told caffeine is safe. So there's a higher chance people will overdo it. There was a story last year some guy put 50g in his protein shake.

I don't like banning either. And ultimately people will still find out ways to overdo it. Can't buy powder? OK I'll crush up the tabs and make my own is a thought I could see people running with.

I see both sides.

 

[Uncle_E]

Too much of pretty much anything can kill you.

Any vitamin.

Water.

Air.

^^^this. People have OD’d by drinking too much WATER!

Pretty much anything can kill you by taking too much except for weed. One could consume all of the marijuana on the planet right now and not die. Yet it is still very illegal in most of the world?

 

[Danksta710]

^^^this. People have OD’d by drinking too much WATER!

Pretty much anything can kill you by taking too much except for weed. One could consume all of the marijuana on the planet right now and not die. Yet it is still very illegal in most of the world?

You could OD on weed but it would near impossible to ingest enough in the short period of time needed. It's been looked into before.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

Speaking of weed, NYC has just legalized recreational marijuana use. You have to be 21 and older, can have up to 3 ounces (24 grams), and you can smoke in public (wherever smoking is allowed).

 

[Danksta710]

Speaking of weed, NYC has just legalized recreational marijuana use. You have to be 21 and older, can have up to 3 ounces (24 grams), and you can smoke in public (wherever smoking is allowed).

Hopefully it forces PA to get our **** together. Our system is a joke.

 

[Danksta710]

Have you heard of Delta-8? Marijuana is Delta-9-THC, but this is Delta-8-THC. The effects are very similar. It's not a synthetic cannabinoid, it's made from industrial hemp, and like CBD oil it has 0.03% THC in it. But, the high from it is very similar.

If anyone is interested in trying it, send me a PM. I have a site that sells vapes (being banned on April 5th, so get it while you still can), gummies, and oil. It can help relieve pain, help you sleep, help you relax, and etc. Like I said, the effects are very similar to the real thing, but they found a loophole to sell this stuff and now it can be legally sold because of the farm bill on industrial hemp signed by Trump.

That stuff is poison. Made with questionable materials.

 

[totalpackage]

Speaking of weed, NYC has just legalized recreational marijuana use. You have to be 21 and older, can have up to 3 ounces (24 grams), and you can smoke in public (wherever smoking is allowed).

I live in NY and the moment I leave my apt to go to work you smell nothing but weed in the air
and once I get to the city same thing even during the day in my job all the customers come in
smelling of it. Seems like during the lock down this is what people did all day smoke weed, sit on
sofa playing with their phones, and the only exercise they got was to get up and answer the door
for their seamless or uber eats order to fatten them up.

 

[faipdeooiad]

In this case, it looks like he added powdered caffeine to a pre-workout.

But in general, I think companies are pushing the caffeine doses way too high in pre-workouts now days. There are some that have over 700 mg. of caffeine in them. I personally feel like anything over 300 to 350 mg. is entering into the area of being irresponsible from a company perspective.

I completely agree re stupid strengths but whilst people are posting on forums and social media asking for and/or advertising the strongest products going, there’s always going to be a market for them and i don’t even think someone dying solely from a 700mg+ caffeine product will change things unless governments step in and regulate them.

I work closely with a couple of companies here in the Uk that have sold bulk caffeine powder in the past and told them repeatedly it was one mistake away from killing someone and leading to a law suit.
Up until maybe a year or so ago, they were both selling caffeine in bags up to 5kg in weight. Completely unnecessary for something where you might only need 2-300mg a day.

 

[sns8778]

I completely agree re stupid strengths but whilst people are posting on forums and social media asking for and/or advertising the strongest products going, there’s always going to be a market for them and i don’t even think someone dying solely from a 700mg+ caffeine product will change things unless governments step in and regulate them.

I work closely with a couple of companies here in the Uk that have sold bulk caffeine powder in the past and told them repeatedly it was one mistake away from killing someone and leading to a law suit.
Up until maybe a year or so ago, they were both selling caffeine in bags up to 5kg in weight. Completely unnecessary for something where you might only need 2-300mg a day.

I think that unfortunately the companies using the ridiculous dosages of caffeine aren't going to stop until something bad does happen and leads to the government regulating the levels of caffeine that can be put into the products. I wish that companies would be responsible and do this themselves so it didn't have to lead to more intervention.

 

[thebigt]

i've heard several on this forum argue that ALL drugs including heroin and opiates should be legal.

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

i've heard several on this forum argue that ALL drugs including heroin and opiates should be legal.

It would certainly reduce crime rates.

Opiates are legal as long as you're buying "their" opiates.

 

[thebigt]

It would certainly reduce crime rates.

Opiates are legal as long as you're buying "their" opiates.

explain how making heroin legal would lower crime rate

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

explain how making heroin legal would lower crime rate

If it's legalized and regulated you reduce the necessity for the black market and the violence that it brings.

 

[Beau]

If it's legalized and regulated you reduce the necessity for the black market and the violence that it brings.

It hasn't worked out that way with pot in CA.

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

There was an article in Forbes attributing crime involving legal marijuana being perpetrated by folks coming from states that still had prohibiton.

 

[thebigt]

If it's legalized and regulated you reduce the necessity for the black market and the violence that it brings.

where are they going to get the heroin?

 

[Beau]

where are they going to get the heroin?

Inb4 Trump. Sorry - I couldn't help myself.

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

where are they going to get the heroin?

If it's anything like pot I guess we can grow our own poppies in the window sill!

 

[thebigt]

If it's anything like pot I guess we can grow our own poppies in the window sill!

lol...thanks for the laugh, i needed that!!!

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

lol...thanks for the laugh, i needed that!!!

That's what we all need these days!

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

i've heard several on this forum argue that ALL drugs including heroin and opiates should be legal.

Portugal instituted a model where they decriminalized (not legalized) small recreational amounts of all drugs. At first it lead to high drug usage rates, but then the rates plummeted. Now they offer harm reduction. Clean needles for users, a safe place to inject, and offering them rehab services instead of incarcerating them with monsters in prison.

Want to Win the War on Drugs? Portugal Might Have the Answer

In 2001, it became the first country to decriminalize the consumption of all drugs.

time.com

Oregon also recently legalized recreational usage of all drugs to a certain amount for personal use. People are going to use rec drugs regardless of this ridiculous war on drugs that's been going on for over 40 years and has been a total failure.

Drug Decriminalization

Oregon has become the first state in the nation to decriminalize drug possession. Twenty-six states plus the District of Columbia have decriminalized the possession of small amounts of marijuana. These are important victories, but they are not enough. We're taking steps to dismantle the federal...

drugpolicy.org

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

I was literally in the other room wondering when the links would start rolling in.

 

[Beau]

It would certainly reduce crime rates.

Opiates are legal as long as you're buying "their" opiates.

I've have heard this a lot.

Using a similar thought process one might argue that we could reduce automobile and motorcycle tickets and fines (and insurance increases arising therefrom) by taking down all speed limit signs and stopping the enforcement of speeding limits. If we were to do so, the symptoms (speeding tickets and the cost of enforcement) of the problem would be reduced, but the problem itself (speeding related vehicle accidents, injuries and death) would not also be reduced (and may be worsened). Reducing the crime of speeding would do nothing to reduce the associated costs to society.

That is sort of the way that I view decimalization of drugs. There would be fewer arrests, but there would be no less (and possibly higher) costs to society. Make sense?

 

[thebigt]

Portugal instituted a model where they decriminalized (not legalized) small recreational amounts of all drugs. At first it lead to high drug usage rates, but then the rates plummeted. Now they offer harm reduction. Clean needles for users, a safe place to inject, and offering them rehab services instead of incarcerating them with monsters in prison.

Want to Win the War on Drugs? Portugal Might Have the Answer

In 2001, it became the first country to decriminalize the consumption of all drugs.

time.com

Oregon also recently legalized recreational usage of all drugs to a certain amount for personal use. People are going to use rec drugs regardless of this ridiculous war on drugs that's been going on for over 40 years and has been a total failure.

Drug Decriminalization

Oregon has become the first state in the nation to decriminalize drug possession. Twenty-six states plus the District of Columbia have decriminalized the possession of small amounts of marijuana. These are important victories, but they are not enough. We're taking steps to dismantle the federal...

drugpolicy.org

lol...and yet you are all in for the government to ban bulk caffeine....geez

once again, thanks for the laugh!!!

 

[thebigt]

I've have heard this a lot.

Using a similar thought process one might argue that we could reduce automobile and motorcycle tickets and fines (and insurance increases arising therefrom) by taking down all speed limit signs and stopping the enforcement of speeding limits. If we were to do so, the symptoms (speeding tickets and the cost of enforcement) of the problem would be reduced, but the problem itself (speeding related vehicle accidents, injuries and death) would not also be reduced (and may be worsened). Reducing the crime of speeding would do nothing to reduce the associated costs to society.

That is sort of the way that I view decimalization of drugs. There would be less arrests, but there would be no less (and possibly higher) costs to society. Make sense?

look at downtown LA or san francisco.