Questioning using noots because of this...

R_Alan1

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I came across this article during my research and it has me very skeptical about starting any racetams or noopept. I've only read positive results with the normal, temporary, sides but this is making me rethink everything. It seems a lot of people have permanent or long term damage as a result of taking this stuff. I wonder about a lot of variables i.e. Prior history, contraindications with other sups/meds, source, dosing, etc all of which could cause bad experiences. But the biggest worry I have is the fact that a lot of the testimonials cited in the article tell about months or years later not feeling the same like it changed them. Anyone have any insight or have they seen this article in the past?

https://selfhacked.com/2013/07/17/why-i-dont-supplement-with-piracetam/
 

ma70

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I came across this article during my research and it has me very skeptical about starting any racetams or noopept. I've only read positive results with the normal, temporary, sides but this is making me rethink everything. It seems a lot of people have permanent or long term damage as a result of taking this stuff. I wonder about a lot of variables i.e. Prior history, contraindications with other sups/meds, source, dosing, etc all of which could cause bad experiences. But the biggest worry I have is the fact that a lot of the testimonials cited in the article tell about months or years later not feeling the same like it changed them. Anyone have any insight or have they seen this article in the past?

https://selfhacked.com/2013/07/17/why-i-dont-supplement-with-piracetam/
Subbed. I've only taken Noopept and Huperzine A, never a racetam, no negative side effects and properly cycled (once each though, never multiple times).
 

kisaj

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Meh, anecdotal posts about not having a good experience with Piracetam. Most people I know that have tried it didn't like it. Know what, Piracetam didn't work for me either and I have posted many times that it is my least favorite racetam. Know what else, other racetams have changed my life and I will never stop brain hacking with noots and racetams because they are amazing and there is nothing more interesting than gaining a mental edge.

So, you ultimately make your own decision on what you feel comfortable with and what your goal is. To write an article based around 70 users of 10s of thousands or more that take racetams only tells me that the author was seeking back up for what he experienced to enforce his opinion and couldn't find much.
 
R_Alan1

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Thanks Kisaj, I share the same sentiment about a small percentage of negative results but I still had to ask. I always perform my due diligence when I take new supps and when I'm unsure I come here lol. Racetams have been around a LONG time and aren't banned so that says something too.

Muscleupcrohn, you seem to be on every thread on noots and from what I read from your posts you're also someone I'm looking for feedback from, even tho ALL feedback is appreciated
 
muscleupcrohn

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Thanks Kisaj, I share the same sentiment about a small percentage of negative results but I still had to ask. I always perform my due diligence when I take new supps and when I'm unsure I come here lol. Racetams have been around a LONG time and aren't banned so that says something too.

Muscleupcrohn, you seem to be on every thread on noots and from what I read from your posts you're also someone I'm looking for feedback from, even tho ALL feedback is appreciated
In class, will respond soon. I like both paracetam and Noopept. YMMV, but that's vastly different from "stay away."
 
R_Alan1

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No rush my good sir. All supps have a YMMV caveat to some degree but I'm more concerned with permanent, or long term, negative sides. A baseline comparison for me would be caffeine. I function better with caffeine. I use it every day and I am addicted to it. When I take a stim break I'm irritable, feel foggy, have trouble speaking as well as when I'm on it, writing becomes more difficult, I'm lethargic, my motivation is lack luster, the list goes on. After a few days of abstinence and good sleep I start to feel better and after a few weeks or a month I don't need it at all. And a small amount has a strong effect. If this is what I'm getting into I'm okay with that. But I don't want to risk frying my brain and I don't want to need anything for the rest of my life if that makes sense. Certain illicit drugs, and even rx drugs, can cause a decline in cognitive function and even psychosis, that's something that's not worth the risk IMO. I am interested in all noots but specifically, for now because it's what I have, piracetam, oxiracetam, noopept and cdp-choline (not a noot but a suggested accompaniment).
 
johnnyp

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They're "research chemicals" for a reason, piracetam has been shown to decrease acetylcholine in animal studies which in the long term isn't a great thing.
 

kisaj

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Except that they aren't research chemicals.
 
muscleupcrohn

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They're "research chemicals" for a reason, piracetam has been shown to decrease acetylcholine in animal studies which in the long term isn't a great thing.
There's actually a lot of research on piracetam, including longer duration human studies than many common ingredients have. When I think research chemicals and nootropics, at least for practical purposes, I think of something like PRL-8-53, which has almost no research, let alone longer duration human studies.
 
johnnyp

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There's actually a lot of research on piracetam, including longer duration human studies than many common ingredients have. When I think research chemicals and nootropics, at least for practical purposes, I think of something like PRL-8-53, which has almost no research, let alone longer duration human studies.
"the racetam group of agents, including the pyrrolidinones derivatives piracetam, oxiracetam, aniracetam, nefiracetam and levetiracetam, have long been designated as cognitive enhancers or ‘nootropics’. they have been used for several cognitive disorders, including dementia, post-concussion syndrome and dyslexia. However, many of the clinical trials of piracetam for dementia have been methodologically flawed, and its efficacy is still under debate (see Flicker & Grimley evans, 2005). " http://www.acmedsci.ac.uk/file-download/34600-Brainsci.pdf
 
muscleupcrohn

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"the racetam group of agents, including the pyrrolidinones derivatives piracetam, oxiracetam, aniracetam, nefiracetam and levetiracetam, have long been designated as cognitive enhancers or ‘nootropics’. they have been used for several cognitive disorders, including dementia, post-concussion syndrome and dyslexia. However, many of the clinical trials of piracetam for dementia have been methodologically flawed, and its efficacy is still under debate (see Flicker & Grimley evans, 2005). " http://www.acmedsci.ac.uk/file-download/34600-Brainsci.pdf
That's questioning the efficacy, not the safety though, no? Isn't this thread focusing on safety, particularly long term?
 

kisaj

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So they are medication?

Correct but I imagine that the same studies would be testing for both.
They are not medication here in the US, but they are in other parts of the world and generally have been studied extensively, but primarily for certain disorders. You'd need to research the laws in your area to determine which of the racetams require a prescription.
 
johnnyp

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They are not medication here in the US, but they are in other parts of the world and generally have been studied extensively, but primarily for certain disorders. You'd need to research the laws in your area to determine which of the racetams require a prescription.
Understood but if they aren't RC's then how would one classify them? The term "nootropic" isn't really scientific is it?
 

kisaj

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They are racetams. It's a chemical classification.

Nootropics refer to cognitive improving compounds or supplements. So racetams are nootropics, but not all nootropics are racetams.
 
R_Alan1

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Johnny, I don't think you're far off calling them research chems but, as stated before, that's not really the bread and butter of this discussion lol
 
johnnyp

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Johnny, I don't think you're far off calling them research chems but, as stated before, that's not really the bread and butter of this discussion lol
My reasoning behind the apparently incorrect classification was in relation to the aforementioned side effects in the article, being that there is still unknown factors that may contribute to long term effects or lack there of.
 
muscleupcrohn

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My reasoning behind the apparently incorrect classification was in relation to the aforementioned side effects in the article, being that there is still unknown factors that may contribute to long term effects or lack there of.
There are "long term" effects that may or may not be known for pretty much everything out there. Most of the things that we take here, even the natural ones, don't have incredibly long-term safety or efficacy studies.

There's actually very little information on racetams in that very long paper you linked to earlier, and they only question the efficacy of piracetam, not the safety, while there is a lot more information on the safety and adverse effects of other drugs. For example, "racetam" is only mentioned 9 times total, and most of those just listing the different types of racetams. On the other hand, alcohol is mentioned 247 times, amphetamine is mentioned 54 times, cocaine is mentioned 130 times, cannabis is mentioned 94 times, etc. The vast majority of this paper is not about racetams at all, so keep that in mind as you read through the rest of the paper.

Here's some relevant information:
Recent post-marketing surveillance reports have confirmed the benign safety profile and lack of organ toxicity shown by piracetam during its 25 years of clinical usage
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10338106
High doses of piracetam [for up to 18 months] were well tolerated and adverse effects were rare, mild, and transitory. They occurred early during treatment and did not require discontinuing the medication.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11346373
Among other classes of drugs, piracetam-like cognition enhancers (nootropics) have never reached general acceptance, in spite of their excellent tolerability and safety.
some of them have been found effective in clinical trials [1, 59], show excellent tolerability and safety [60] and, in some countries, have been used or are currently in development to treat cognitive disorders
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11812254
 
muscleupcrohn

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Thanks Kisaj, I share the same sentiment about a small percentage of negative results but I still had to ask. I always perform my due diligence when I take new supps and when I'm unsure I come here lol. Racetams have been around a LONG time and aren't banned so that says something too.

Muscleupcrohn, you seem to be on every thread on noots and from what I read from your posts you're also someone I'm looking for feedback from, even tho ALL feedback is appreciated
As for the link you posted in the OP (which had multiple pop-up ads for me to buy something as soon as I opened it, which immediately raised a red flag for me), here are my brief thoughts:

The author mentions adverse effects including brian fog. Ok, that's possible, and everyone reacts differently, but here is some information from an actual study:

Referring to my previous post:
high doses of piracetam [for up to 18 months] were well tolerated and adverse effects were rare, mild, and transitory. They occurred early during treatment and did not require discontinuing the medication.
This seems to be in stark contrast to the authors of this article, who says
People describe how they used to be extremely intelligent and came crashing down after piracetam usage. Some have never recovered- not even after a long break.
Honestly, it sounds like a lot of this is in people's heads more than anything. There are always bizarre outliers and whatnot, but it seems like hyperbole to say that using piracetam brought some people's intelligence "crashing down" for extended periods of time following cessation of use.

He's also wrong about there only being one study on piracetam in healthy volunteers, as he forgot this one:
Global complexity of 47-channel resting electroencephalogram (EEG) of healthy young volunteers was studied after intake of a single dose of a nootropic drug (piracetam, Nootropil UCB Pharma) in 12 healthy volunteers. Four treatment levels were used: 2.4, 4.8, 9.6 g piracetam and placebo. Brain electric activity was assessed through Global Dimensional Complexity and Global Omega-Complexity as quantitative measures of the complexity of the trajectory of multichannel EEG in state space. After oral ingestion (1-1.5 h), both measures showed significant decreases from placebo to 2.4 g piracetam. In addition, Global Dimensional Complexity showed a significant return to placebo values at 9.6 g piracetam. The results indicate that a single dose of piracetam dose-dependently affects the spontaneous EEG in normal volunteers, showing effects at the lowest treatment level. The decreased EEG complexity is interpreted as increased cooperativity of brain functional processes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10555876

He has a couple dozen of unsubstantiated anecdotal reports from anonymous people on the internet, many of whom combined piracetam with several other nootropics/supplements, making it really difficult to prove causation for anything. As I referenced in my previous post:
Recent post-marketing surveillance reports have confirmed the benign safety profile and lack of organ toxicity shown by piracetam during its 25 years of clinical usage.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10338106

Basically, if you decide to use piracetam, and find that you encounter any adverse effects, which research suggests are "rare, mild, and transitory" and "occurred early during treatment" then stop taking it. It's pretty simple, really.
 
johnnyp

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I don't mean to diminish any claims or opinions as I've used various compounds but even though it just may be a liability issue the fact that most are sold as "for research purposes" and "not for human consumption" is the logic behind my statements. If you feel confident that you are not altering brain chemistry negatively then more power to you.
 
R_Alan1

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Sorry about the pop ups crohn, I didn't get those. I did however google racetam negative experiences and racetam sides etc and found a decent amount of people who have had bad experiences but again, who knows how they dosed, where it came from, underlying issues, etc. I wonder about other countries and prescribing for cognitive impairment considering Alzheimer's and dementia are generally the beginning of the end so to speak so no longitudinal data can be collected from those people. Also, brain fog is a vague side a lot of people talk about, even with positive experiences. I feel like I have that already sometimes haha. I used to be very very intelligent, and still consider myself to be well above average but after a bad car accident I definitely feel like my memory and spatial reasoning isn't what it used to be since that happened. I'm wondering if the racetams that have more or exclusive clinical indications for people with cognitive impairment would bring me back to how I used to be. That I would love! I miss how sharp and witty I used to be. It's not to the point other people can even see a difference but I do. This is a loaded response but I'm curious to hear what you have to say lol.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I don't mean to diminish any claims or opinions as I've used various compounds but even though it just may be a liability issue the fact that most are sold as "for research purposes" and "not for human consumption" is the logic behind my statements.
That only speaks to legality and technicalities of selling them, not their efficacy or safety though. Hell, isn't agmatine banned in some places?
 
muscleupcrohn

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Sorry about the pop ups crohn, I didn't get those. I did however google racetam negative experiences and racetam sides etc and found a decent amount of people who have had bad experiences but again, who knows how they dosed, where it came from, underlying issues, etc. I wonder about other countries and prescribing for cognitive impairment considering Alzheimer's and dementia are generally the beginning of the end so to speak so no longitudinal data can be collected from those people. Also, brain fog is a vague side a lot of people talk about, even with positive experiences. I feel like I have that already sometimes haha. I used to be very very intelligent, and still consider myself to be well above average but after a bad car accident I definitely feel like my memory and spatial reasoning isn't what it used to be since that happened. I'm wondering if the racetams that have more or exclusive clinical indications for people with cognitive impairment would bring me back to how I used to be. That I would love! I miss how sharp and witty I used to be. It's not to the point other people can even see a difference but I do. This is a loaded response but I'm curious to hear what you have to say lol.
The nature of feedback is that people are more likely to write about negatives and/or complain than about neutral/bland or positive experiences. Now, I do not give any medical advise, I am not a doctor, etc, but here's an interesting study (it's hard to find the actual text, so let's use this website):
The study was a randomized comparative clinical trial of Noopept and piracetam performed on two groups totaling 53 patients. One group contained 37 patience who were over 50 years old, with central nervous system diseases. The other group contained 16 patients, aged 18-60 years old, with post-tramuatic CNS damage.

To be included in the study, patients had to have a diagnosed cognitive insufficiency, a score not more than 27 points on the MMSE, and no other neurological diseases. They also excluded people with severe dementia, delusions, hallucinations, alcoholics, etc.

The study lasted 56 days, with patients either receiving piracetam 3 times a day or noopept 2 times a day. Out of the 37 patients with CNS disorders, 21 received Noopept (16 received piracetam). Out of the 16 with post-concussional syndrome 10 received not (6 received piracetam).


A total of 41 patients completed their 56-day treatment and most of them experienced decreases in neurosis-like symptoms and cognitive disorders. In the patients with organic emotionally labile (asthenic) disorder of vascular origin, the effects of Noopept were apparent from the first week of treatment, with reductions in irritability and improvements in going to sleep. From the second week of treatment there were reductions in fatigue, listlessness, weakness, tiring, apathy, and daytime drowsiness. From the third week on there were reductions in anxiety, depressed mood, and hyperesthesia. These changes were seen in addition to autonomic-system normalizing that took place, and is consistent with previous data showing that Noopept has anxiolytic and psychostimulatory effects.

For patients with post-concussional syndrome, they also had a positive effect on their irritability, anxiety, and affective lability, as well as with fatigue, weakness, apathy and listlessness. The results in these patients were seen slightly later than in the group with emotionally labile (asthenic) disorder, at 3-4 weeks. Noopept also did not negatively effect their ability to go to sleep, or to the depth and duration of sleep.
http://nootroo.com/comparative-studies-of-noopept-and-piracetam-in-the-treatment-of-patients-with-mild-cognitive-disorders-in-organic-brain-diseases-of-vascular-and-traumatic-origin/
 
R_Alan1

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Very interesting study. I'll admit I didn't read the link yet but I will so if my questions are answered there than I'll go ahead and read it but 1 why did only 41 of 53 finish the test and 2 why does it only give info/results about noopept? Was piracetam the control? I agree that people are more often reporting negatives sides and they stick out more in my mind too lol. It's always in the back of my head with studies like this that these people's lives leave them more to gain than to lose with taking a substance like this. Definitely me being a skeptic. And I'm sure I've taken stuff with a lot worse sides if we're being honest lol.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Very interesting study. I'll admit I didn't read the link yet but I will so if my questions are answered there than I'll go ahead and read it but 1 why did only 41 of 53 finish the test and 2 why does it only give info/results about noopept? Was piracetam the control? I agree that people are more often reporting negatives sides and they stick out more in my mind too lol. It's always in the back of my head with studies like this that these people's lives leave them more to gain than to lose with taking a substance like this. Definitely me being a skeptic. And I'm sure I've taken stuff with a lot worse sides if we're being honest lol.
What I quoted is just the sites summary of the study. They have pics of the actual study in the link, but not the whole thing. I'll see if I can get the full text for the study.
 
R_Alan1

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If you were to start your first time would you choose piracetam or noopept and what would you consider to be a conservative start dose? I've heard from 4.8-20 grams per day for piracetam so that's a pretty huge gap
 
muscleupcrohn

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If you were to start your first time would you choose piracetam or noopept and what would you consider to be a conservative start dose? I've heard from 4.8-20 grams per day for piracetam so that's a pretty huge gap
It seems that a lot of people prefer Noopept. You can also find it capped easier than piracetam too. For piracetam, I'd gowith 2.4g once a day, and maybe increase it to twice a day. That's 2.4g at a time, up to 4.8g per day. For Noopept, I'd do 20mg per day, either 10mg twice a day, or 20mg once a day. No need to crazy mega-dose either IMO.
 
R_Alan1

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4.8 was the low end for the piracetam so that's where I'd probably have started there. Another loaded question, some say start with no choline and add it if you get a headache, some say start with choline and take it away if you get a headache, that's pretty conflicting does excess choline cause headache the same as too little? Make sense I guess now that I typed it out. I was gonna start noopept about there too. I picked those two because they seemed popular, low risk and fairly mild as far as pros and cons. My understanding is that noopept has better acute effects is this true?
 
muscleupcrohn

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It seems that a lot of people prefer Noopept. You can also find it capped easier than piracetam too. For piracetam, I'd gowith 2.4g once a day, and maybe increase it to twice a day. That's 2.4g at a time, up to 4.8g per day. For Noopept, I'd do 20mg per day, either 10mg twice a day, or 20mg once a day. No need to crazy mega-dose either IMO.
I know I'm quoting myself here, but it's also worth noting that it's traditionally recommended to take a choline source with racetams/Noopept, although it's not an absolute requirement, and everyone is different. There is also in interesting study (on aged rats unfortunately) that noted that the combination of choline and piracetam was more effective than twice the dose of either choline or piracetam alone, and that repeated administration (1 week) was superior to acute dosing. The dose used for piracetam and choline in isolation was 200mg/kg (roughly equivalent to 2.4g for a 165lb person), and half of that when the two were used together.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7301036
With that in mind, and the fact that choline can have its own cognitive/nootropic benefits, and it makes sense to take the two of them together.

As for the study comparing Noopept and piracetam, I just got a PDF of the full text, so here's some info:
A total of 41 patients completed their 56-day treatment
courses. The trial was terminated before completion
in eight patients with organic emotionally labile (asthenic)
disorder. These included four patients receiving Noopept
(one moved house and was not available for further studies,
two had increases in arterial blood pressure and required
hypotensive treatment, and one withdrew because of lack
of benefit) and four patients receiving piracetam (withdrawal
was because of side effects). In post-concussional
syndrome, treatment was terminated in four patients
receiving piracetam (one because of side effects, three
because of lack of efficacy).
Patients with post-concussional syndrome (see Table 1)
also showed effects on both emotional-hyperesthetic
(increased irritability, anxiety, affective lability) and hyposthenic
(increased fatigue, listlessness, weakness, tiring, apathy)
changes. Statistically significant decreases in disorders
were seen somewhat later than in patients with organic
emotionally labile (asthenic) disorder of vascular origin,
i.e., from treatment weeks 3–4. Noopept had no effect on
abnormalities of going to sleep, impairments to the depth
and duration of sleep, waking disturbances, or daytime
drowsiness in patients with post-concussional syndrome.
In patients with organic emotionally labile (asthenic)
disorder and post-concussional syndrome, Noopept also
produced, at 7–14 days of treatment, positive changes in
somatoneurological signs (see Table 1). During Noopept
treatment, virtually all patients with organic emotionally
labile (asthenic) disorder of vascular origin showed improvements
in measures reflecting the autonomic-normalizing
effect of Noopept (headaches, orthostatic abnormalities,
tachycardia, sweating, muscle hypotonia; p < 0.05), except
for signs which were not informative for this category of
patients (mouth dryness, vasomotor lability, pain in various
body parts, nausea, hypotonia, paroxysmal autonomic
abnormalities). In patients with post-concussional syndrome,
unlike this group of patients, Noopept had no effect
on signs such as muscle hypotonia and sweating. It was
only at the end of Noopept treatment courses that there was
any significant decrease in the severity of headache.
The effects of
Noopept on impairments to cognitive functions in patients
with organic emotionally labile (asthenic) disorder and
post-traumatic impairments were apparent as statistically
significant reductions in scores on the MMSE, BPRS, and
CCSE scales, starting from the third week of treatment
(Figs. 1–3). Significant positive changes, identifying the
nootropic effects of Noopept, starting from 2–3 weeks of
treatment, were seen in all BCRS measures in patients with
organic emotionally labile (asthenic) disorder of vascular
origin; in patients with post-concussional syndrome, improvements
were seen in the ability to concentrate and count
and in short-term memory for ongoing events and long-term
memory for the past (see Fig. 3).
Thus, the use of Noopept in patients with mild cognitive
disorders in organic CNS lesions of vascular origin and
post-concussional syndrome led to significant reductions in
all symptomatology, with decreased manifestations of both
cognitive deficit and neurosis-like disorders. The agent had
nootropic effects, psychostimulatory actions including antiasthenic
and anxiolytic effects, positive effects on
hypothymic disorders and sleep, and autonomic-normalizing
actions.
There's also a lot of info on the results for piracetam, but I don't want to copy and paste the whole study. Here's some more summary type stuff though:
The undesirable effects noted on use of
Noopept included increased sleep disturbance, irritability,
and increased blood pressure. However, only sleep disturbance
and increased blood pressure could be adequately
linked to the agent in only two patients. In most cases,
undesirable effects on treatment with Noopept were tranComparative
Studies of Noopept and Piracetam in the Treatment of Patients 319
TABLE 3. Characteristics of Undesirable Effects During Treatment with Noopept and Piracetam
Notes. An individual patient could experience several undesirable effects.
sient and of insignificant severity. The use of piracetam was
associated with a greater frequency, severity, and spectrum
of undesirable effects in the patients, which were dominated
by effects linked with the excessive stimulatory action of
the agent, along with somato-autonomic impairments.
As compared with piracetam, the use of Noopept was
associated with a 1.8-fold lower level of undesirable effects,
a risk of developing undesirable effects in patients of 22% to
76%, and a probable link between undesirable effects and
use of the agent of 13–57% (calculations using the computer
program PRINN, which allows expression of the combined
influences of variables on the total effect with consideration
of their information value and significance, with a more
objective evaluation – an integral measure of usefulness and
advantages – of the alternative being tested [8, 22]).
There were no significant differences
in the extents of the nootropic effects of Noopept and
piracetam. It should only be noted that unlike the balanced
profile of the therapeutic activity of Noopept, the action of
piracetam included a predominance of psychostimulatory
effects, which are undesirable in the treatment of patients with
mild cognitive disorders. Noopept had an advantage over
piracetam in terms of therapeutic efficacy and safety.
 
muscleupcrohn

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4.8 was the low end for the piracetam so that's where I'd probably have started there. Another loaded question, some say start with no choline and add it if you get a headache, some say start with choline and take it away if you get a headache, that's pretty conflicting does excess choline cause headache the same as too little? Make sense I guess now that I typed it out. I was gonna start noopept about there too. I picked those two because they seemed popular, low risk and fairly mild as far as pros and cons. My understanding is that noopept has better acute effects is this true?
See my previous post. You may be able to get better results with the combination than with either alone, but it's really up to you which way you start with. Ideally, I'd say you'd want to take both if you can for maximum benefits, but if only using piracetam or Noopept alone works better for you, then stick with it.
 
R_Alan1

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That study definitely sounds like it confirms what I was saying before that piracetam was the control so to speak. The summary statement at the end seemed to tout the safety and efficacy of noopept as compared to piracetam. Those number seemed a little fishy tho: "a risk of developing undesirable effects in patients of 22%-76%, and a probable link between undesirable effects and use of agent of 13-57%..." sounds like they're pulling for noopept lol. Does bring me to a question I was going to ask, the above referenced study talks about psychostimulatory effects with piracetam, would it be I'll advised to take either with stims?
You also mentioned pill form of noopept, I read somewhere it's not as bioavailable orally vs sublingual, thoughts on that? I happen to own a cap-em-quick and a bunch of empty caps so I could cap-em-quick lmao
 
muscleupcrohn

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That study definitely sounds like it confirms what I was saying before that piracetam was the control so to speak. The summary statement at the end seemed to tout the safety and efficacy of noopept as compared to piracetam. Those number seemed a little fishy tho: "a risk of developing undesirable effects in patients of 22%-76%, and a probable link between undesirable effects and use of agent of 13-57%..." sounds like they're pulling for noopept lol. Does bring me to a question I was going to ask, the above referenced study talks about psychostimulatory effects with piracetam, would it be I'll advised to take either with stims?
You also mentioned pill form of noopept, I read somewhere it's not as bioavailable orally vs sublingual, thoughts on that? I happen to own a cap-em-quick and a bunch of empty caps so I could cap-em-quick lmao
Most studies on Noopept just use oral administration. Perhaps it'd be more bioavailable sublingual, but we know that it is bioavailable and has effects with moderate oral doses. The study does seem to point towards Noopept being superior under those conditions, which was pretty much the point of the study. Noopept is newer, touted often as a "buffed up piracetam with lower doses," where piracetam has been around a long time; you want to compare the new thing to a more common standard. As for taking either with stimulants, many people, myself included, do it all the time. I don't take them with anything like DMAA, although I think some PWOs have both, I often take it with caffeine and other moderate stims. Perhaps take a bit of theanine with the caffeine when you use either of these. A good bit of my daily nootropic stack consists of caffeine, theanine, choline, and Noopept.
 
R_Alan1

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Awesome bro! I think that's all the questions I have for now haha. I definitely have put my mind at ease regarding the safety of this stuff. I think I'll start with noopept solo then add some caffeine and theanine if I need a little more of a boost. I also have the cdp-choline dosed at 300 mg per cap so I'll probably take that at least once if not twice a day. Pretty sure the pwo I took this am has dmaa so I'll wait on starting, maybe this afternoon or tomorrow am. Thanks for all your input brother!
 
R_Alan1

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Do you measure with a spoon or a scale? Thought my scale went lower but it only goes to .1 grams so I have to buy something to be able to measure 10 mg
 
muscleupcrohn

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Do you measure with a spoon or a scale? Thought my scale went lower but it only goes to .1 grams so I have to buy something to be able to measure 10 mg
Anything that's dosed in mgs, I use a scale for. If the dose is a few grams or so (something like 3g HMB, 2g choline bitartrate, etc), I'll use a scale a few times and figure out what scoop I have works best, then I can just use the measuring spoon, but I really recommend a scale for something like CDP-choline (I like 250mg). It all depends on what you're using/measuring. What specifically are you asking about?
 
R_Alan1

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Specifically about measuring say 10-20 mg of noopept lol. Such a tiny dose, didn't really think about it till I got my scale out and thought about the conversion in my head haha
 
muscleupcrohn

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Specifically about measuring say 10-20 mg of noopept lol. Such a tiny dose, didn't really think about it till I got my scale out and thought about the conversion in my head haha
Yeah, you should have a precise scale for that. I know there are micro-scoops that work well for things like Noopept, but you should really measure it out first to see.
 
R_Alan1

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Thanks buddy. Ordered and should be here Tuesday, gotta love amazon lol
 
R_Alan1

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So I've been taking noopept, 10 mg twice a day, for about a week and I can't tell if it's making a difference. I also have piracetam and oxiracetam which I haven't tried yet. I know I can stack the two racetams but can I take oxiracetam with noopept or piracetam with noopept? Only reason I'd do the latter of the two is because I've read piracetam takes some time before you see any effects so in case the noopept is actually doing something I don't wanna stop it yet. Idk if the combo would deplete my choline but I am taking 600mg cdp choline with each noopept dose.
 

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I've been using a tiny scoop (came with the noopept) under the tongue for 30 seconds, then popping my self made cap of 600-750mg of alpha gpc. Helped me throughout college and working in the office. Such a small amount of noopept wasn't an issue for me, though the taste wasn't the best and I'd just wash it down with some black coffee.

This stuff doesn't have drastic affects overnight, though I notice memory forming easier after a few weeks of use.
 
R_Alan1

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Interesting. Thanks for the reply. I'm going to stick with it. I added in some oxi and noticed that immediately. Definitely has a stimulant effect. Switching from cdp to alpha gpc tomorrow when my bottle runs out to see if I notice any difference. I feel like the oxi has made my reflexes faster. I've always been athletic and had good reflexes but I feel like if someone around me knocks something over I'm catching it before my brain even begins processing what's happening.
 

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