Question sort of trt, but also about total test levels.

jtbull

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I dont think caber is necessary with 19 nors tbh. That whole prolactin - 19 nor connection isnt all that clear to me. I believe all aas can lead to prolactin increase, especially aromatizeabl3 ones like tesr, also anything that increases natural gh output will increase prolactin.

but prolactin in itself is not the devil. I can take mk and it doesnt cause my nipples to flare up. Also hcg alone doesnt. But mk with hcg causes gyno flare ups for me.

So from my experience controlling estro is most important.

i also dont see why one couldnt use sth as simple as tamoxifen if gyno flares up.


Btw i used a bit of tren ace this year, only 100mg a week, a tiny dose, but i had 0 nipple issues, and i did use mk and test alongside and no ai at all(growth is amazing when highish estro is combined with a little bit of tren and sth that boosts igf1, it will be my go to stack next year for sure), but no hcg.
I would say tren, at that dose at least, had way less of an effect on prolactin than what even mk677 does,
what kind of mk protocal did you run? I am getting my prolactin checked next bloods in 4 weeks on my trt dose ( i got a great doc) Have you run deca before how much? I do hae some b6 and thought of taking that. I might just pick up nolva in case. I think i read 20mg a day if there are issues but how do you know when gyno is starting? Ever now and then i will feel sensative nipples but rarely. Seems i just noticed it when i was totally off test for 2 or 3 months and then they put me back on. I have arimidex and on cycle ( 600mg test is my biggest so far) i took 5mg twice a week
 
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I dont think caber is necessary with 19 nors tbh. That whole prolactin - 19 nor connection isnt all that clear to me. I believe all aas can lead to prolactin increase, especially aromatizeabl3 ones like tesr, also anything that increases natural gh output will increase prolactin.

but prolactin in itself is not the devil. I can take mk and it doesnt cause my nipples to flare up. Also hcg alone doesnt. But mk with hcg causes gyno flare ups for me.

So from my experience controlling estro is most important.

i also dont see why one couldnt use sth as simple as tamoxifen if gyno flares up.


Btw i used a bit of tren ace this year, only 100mg a week, a tiny dose, but i had 0 nipple issues, and i did use mk and test alongside and no ai at all(growth is amazing when highish estro is combined with a little bit of tren and sth that boosts igf1, it will be my go to stack next year for sure), but no hcg.
I would say tren, at that dose at least, had way less of an effect on prolactin than what even mk677 does,
“I don’t really understand why tamoxifen wouldn’t really just handle all gyno issues, even from prolactin.”

“I don’t really have prolactin issues, so nobody else could.”

“I took a whole 100mg/wk of Tren and didn’t need it, so caber is kinda pointless for everyone.”


This is why we can’t have nice things 🤦‍♂️

If you haven’t needed it, terrific. You could even make the argument that if you need other drugs just to use a compound, maybe it would be better to avoid 19-Nors and try other AAS that have less issues for that user. But to say that people won’t need caber with 19-nors, assuming you mean that to imply all pharmaceutical prolactin control like prami or bromocriptine as well, you are over-extrapolating your personal experiences and applying them wrongly to everyone.

Different individuals respond to different drugs differently. Pharmacology 101. JT should start with something like B6/P5P/Inhibit-P and have access to something like Prami or Caber on hand if things become uncontrollable. Deca is going to be in the system for a long time so he needs to have something at hand if he finds those and an AI insufficient. After the cycle if he learns he doesn’t need it, then he won’t need to ever buy anymore. But it’s naive to just hope for the best. We don’t start cycles for the first time without an AI if we don’t know what our body will do.
 
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“I don’t really understand why tamoxifen wouldn’t really just handle all gyno issues, even from prolactin.”

“I don’t really have prolactin issues, so nobody else could.”

“I took a whole 100mg/wk of Tren and didn’t need it, so caber is kinda pointless for everyone.”


This is why we can’t have nice things 🤦‍♂️

If you haven’t needed it, terrific. You could even make the argument that if you need other drugs just to use a compound, maybe it would be better to avoid 19-Nors and try other AAS that have less issues for that user. But to say that people won’t need caber with 19-nors, assuming you mean that to imply all pharmaceutical prolactin control like prami or bromocriptine as well, you are over-extrapolating your personal experiences and applying them wrongly to everyone.

Different individuals respond to different drugs differently. Pharmacology 101. JT should start with something like B6/P5P/Inhibit-P and have access to something like Prami or Caber on hand if things become uncontrollable. Deca is going to be in the system for a long time so he needs to have something at hand if he finds those and an AI insufficient. After the cycle if he learns he doesn’t need it, then he won’t need to ever buy anymore. But it’s naive to just hope for the best. We don’t start cycles for the first time without an AI if we don’t know what our body will do.
Broderick Chavez' most recent live Q&A mentioned some of his athletes, who regularly get bloods, have perfect E2 readings...yet these unfortunates are still very sensitive to gyno symptoms. They need to run caber even though their estrogen is fine. Chavez claims not even the most experty expert understands all the estrogen and prolactin pathways and synergies.
 
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Broderick Chavez' most recent live Q&A mentioned some of his athletes, who regularly get bloods, have perfect E2 readings...yet these unfortunates are still very sensitive to gyno symptoms. They need to run caber even though their estrogen is fine. Chavez claims not even the most experty expert understands all the estrogen and prolactin pathways and synergies.
100%

Using 200 test e & 400 dien e. 11mg exem twice a week, about 12 hours before my split shots Sunday and Wednesday. No bloat issues or signs of uncontrolled estro like swollen feet, bloating, oily skin I get if I don’t use AI. Yet my left gland kept getting more and more swollen. 30mg Ralox did nothing. 60mg no difference. 0.5mg Caber and 24 hours later there is a profound shrinking of the gland. Totally back to normal, as expected based on previous 19-Nor & Mk677 usage.

It’s not rocket science. A little experience is a great teacher.
 

jtbull

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what is a good estrogen level for say a blast of 500 test 400 deca? 60?
 

jtbull

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Hello. Thought i would give an update and thanks for all the advice from everyone as I was very concerned. I did have the high iron. Well my last time i had it checked a couple days ago it was fine. Apparently giving blood does wonders for the blood issues I had. I am debating if i would to start in december or january but i do want to be on at least 12-16 weeks. Test will be test c so i figure it will have a shorter half life than the sustonan i was taking before. They will be doing bloods on my every month now ( they are ware i run cycles and i am sure the rbc, hbln, and hcrit will all elevate slighly) Part of me is still really wondering about running eq now but likely as soon as i get my mint on some caber ( likely .5mg every 5 days as one member said) ill run the deca.......Now is there anythign wrong with taking caber and arimidex as from what many here said it seems they do different things? i will continue donateing blood every 56 days i think they let you.
 
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Just out of interest, what are you hoping to achieve with EQ that you wont with, say, deca or NPP? Or is it simply you have it, wanna use it?
 
Hyde

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Hello. Thought i would give an update and thanks for all the advice from everyone as I was very concerned. I did have the high iron. Well my last time i had it checked a couple days ago it was fine. Apparently giving blood does wonders for the blood issues I had. I am debating if i would to start in december or january but i do want to be on at least 12-16 weeks. Test will be test c so i figure it will have a shorter half life than the sustonan i was taking before. They will be doing bloods on my every month now ( they are ware i run cycles and i am sure the rbc, hbln, and hcrit will all elevate slighly) Part of me is still really wondering about running eq now but likely as soon as i get my mint on some caber ( likely .5mg every 5 days as one member said) ill run the deca.......Now is there anythign wrong with taking caber and arimidex as from what many here said it seems they do different things? i will continue donateing blood every 56 days i think they let you.
If you can split the Caber tabs smaller, try 0.25mg every 4-5 days first. Half the drugs, half the money, may well be totally sufficient for many guys.

Arimidex helps prevent your test from aromatizing to estrogen, while caber lowers your prolactin powerfully. Different drugs, different effects, not related, and yes they can be combined for their respective needs.
 

jtbull

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Just out of interest, what are you hoping to achieve with EQ that you wont with, say, deca or NPP? Or is it simply you have it, wanna use it?
Good question. I actually have enough test and eq deca/npp mix to run 1 likely 16 week cycle of each. The main reason is that I would not need to concern myself with prolactin issues with eq. Honesty that is the main reason. I have also been told Eq will provide leaner gains. ON the flip side there are rbc issues but they seem to happen and I was concerned i was prone to them high but since donating blood the first time they have came down. If i run eq i am figuring 500-600mg a week. Deca will be 300-450 a week which some think might be low for prolactin sides, but i plan to get caber before the cycle The stuff is so damn expensive though hence the eq. Now someone on here mentioned a supplement pro something that deals wtih prolactin and i also heard of b6. I also read a bit about prami, but undestand it has worse sides.

If you can split the Caber tabs smaller, try 0.25mg every 4-5 days first. Half the drugs, half the money, may well be totally sufficient for many guys.

Arimidex helps prevent your test from aromatizing to estrogen, while caber lowers your prolactin powerfully. Different drugs, different effects, not related, and yes they can be combined for their respective needs.
I was thinking that but usually when its discussed the only think mentioned is caber. With arimidex i wont need nolva will i? I know its talked about alot but no damn clue what to do with it except for PCT ( with TRT i dont do)

I am planning for bloods in week 6. I am hoping i can get it through one of the docs as my hemotologist or see if i can talk my familiy doc into it. I just DO NOT WANT my trt doc getting ahold of my test levels if i am blasting 400-500mg. This will be my first two compound cycle and might add the dbol kickstarter. I figure experimenting while i am young is much better than as i push 50 ( 45 now)
 
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If you control estrogen from your testosterone dose with arimidex and you control prolactin from Deca with caber you won’t need Nolva.

Nolva blocks estrogen receptors in the chest, so it can help stop gyno if estrogen gets too high, but it won’t do anything to actually lower your estrogen levels the way Arimidex will. Nolva is what you take if you failed to use enough Arimidex in the first place.

Deca can also give gyno by increasing prolactin, so you will need to control that as well to prevent gyno via that pathway.
 

jtbull

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If you control estrogen from your testosterone dose with arimidex and you control prolactin from Deca with caber you won’t need Nolva.

Nolva blocks estrogen receptors in the chest, so it can help stop gyno if estrogen gets too high, but it won’t do anything to actually lower your estrogen levels the way Arimidex will. Nolva is what you take if you failed to use enough Arimidex in the first place.

Deca can also give gyno by increasing prolactin, so you will need to control that as well to prevent gyno via that pathway.
so nolva is more just for gyno and not really an "essential" for a cycle......No prolactin does nto give you gyno if i understand but you will get a dishcharge from your nipple? Is it better to take caber or prami ect from the start or see if i need it? I mean how quick will that milk stop ?

You guys have been great. I really appreciate all the advice.
 
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so nolva is more just for gyno and not really an "essential" for a cycle......No prolactin does nto give you gyno if i understand but you will get a dishcharge from your nipple? Is it better to take caber or prami ect from the start or see if i need it? I mean how quick will that milk stop ?

You guys have been great. I really appreciate all the advice.
I believe you understand Nolva correctly.

Prolactin can give you gyno. And it will eventually discharge when squeezed. It’s best to take a P5P product twice a day from the start. SNS Inhibit-P is a well-regarded herbal supplement containing P5P you can use, or you can just buy Swanson or some other vitamin brand P5P if really pinching pennies.

So you would take your normal Arimidex dose for the amount of testosterone you are using, take P5P twice a day, and if you find the Deca still begins to burn/itch your nipples or they begin getting sore, or it gets very tough to orgasm, you would stop the P5P supplement & begin taking the Caber or Prami. If you decide to go with Prami, it can be tougher to dial in and have more sides. Caber is basically fool-proof. You just take 0.25mg twice a week and that’s it. Still not enough and you would use 0.5mg every 4-5 days.
 

jtbull

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I believe you understand Nolva correctly.

Prolactin can give you gyno. And it will eventually discharge when squeezed. It’s best to take a P5P product twice a day from the start. SNS Inhibit-P is a well-regarded herbal supplement containing P5P you can use, or you can just buy Swanson or some other vitamin brand P5P if really pinching pennies.

So you would take your normal Arimidex dose for the amount of testosterone you are using, take P5P twice a day, and if you find the Deca still begins to burn/itch your nipples or they begin getting sore, or it gets very tough to orgasm, you would stop the P5P supplement & begin taking the Caber or Prami. If you decide to go with Prami, it can be tougher to dial in and have more sides. Caber is basically fool-proof. You just take 0.25mg twice a week and that’s it. Still not enough and you would use 0.5mg every 4-5 days.
Got you. So gyno is not permanant and can be fixed. Now that p5p ( is that what i type into a search engine) from the start regardless even if i get no issues? Caber is if that does not work?
 
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Got you. So gyno is not permanant and can be fixed. Now that p5p ( is that what i type into a search engine) from the start regardless even if i get no issues? Caber is if that does not work?
Gyno can most definitely be permanent. That is why you should at least take P5P from the start, to help prevent prolactin from getting too high and causing problems. If you still get problems, you would switch to Caber.

I would get 50mg caps of P5P - something like this:

 
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Gyno can most definitely be permanent. That is why you should at least take P5P from the start, to help prevent prolactin from getting too high and causing problems. If you still get problems, you would switch to Caber.

I would get 50mg caps of P5P - something like this:

great price!!!
 

jtbull

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Gyno can most definitely be permanent. That is why you should at least take P5P from the start, to help prevent prolactin from getting too high and causing problems. If you still get problems, you would switch to Caber.

I would get 50mg caps of P5P - something like this:

Thanks man and i do agree with the guy who posted after you great price. I take it this is more than just b6 as i heard that is good right? Definitely will take from the start.
 
Hyde

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Thanks man and i do agree with the guy who posted after you great price. I take it this is more than just b6 as i heard that is good right? Definitely will take from the start.
It’s the highly bio available form of B6. So it works better when using day in and out.

This is what B6 hopes to be when it grows up someday.
 

jtbull

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It’s the highly bio available form of B6. So it works better when using day in and out.

This is what B6 hopes to be when it grows up someday.
Thanks bro lol

That sns stuff does not seem that expensive so i might just go wtih it a couple research cos have caber and i sure a "source" might as well. So i can always get it if need but but likely will get some just in case. Sounds like if I get gyno i will know it.

Is there any dosing timing on the sns or p5p? I usually take most of my vitamins and medicines upon waking. I have read someplace that tudca and stuff you take particularly for orals you should take like 3 hours after or before orals? Right now i just do one shot a week and its evening on sundays. When i did my cycles most was 3 shots a week on a 550-600mg cycle. I would still do evening t, th, su
 
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Thanks bro lol

That sns stuff does not seem that expensive so i might just go wtih it a couple research cos have caber and i sure a "source" might as well. So i can always get it if need but but likely will get some just in case. Sounds like if I get gyno i will know it.

Is there any dosing timing on the sns or p5p? I usually take most of my vitamins and medicines upon waking. I have read someplace that tudca and stuff you take particularly for orals you should take like 3 hours after or before orals? Right now i just do one shot a week and its evening on sundays. When i did my cycles most was 3 shots a week on a 550-600mg cycle. I would still do evening t, th, su
SNS is having a 30% off Black Friday sale - if you buy Inhibit P, get it this week on sale somewhere!

Twice a day. I don’t think it really matter when. Morn and dinner are convenient for me.
 
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