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Question on AIs for the old guy

skiboyny

New member
Hello to all,

I am a 52 year old wanna be body builder. I have worked out religiously over the last 12 years or so, but over the last 2 years have really put a solid effort in getting my diet and workouts in order. I have made improvements in body fat and muscle composition but very little if any size gain. Realizing that my hormonal environment is less than perfect at this point in my life I gave a little experment with a cycle of Hyperdrol which is a 6-bromo product. From the first dosage which I started at 1 cap I could feel it's effects which for me were increased energy and night and morning wood like back when I was 18. The strength gains were steady and modest but constantly improving none the less. I increased the dosage to the recommended of 3 caps daily but It didn't improve or detract. For 2 weeks I thought that I had found the holy grail a slight leaning effect as well. The effects after 2 weeks seemed to have worn off I assume my body countered the decrease in estrogen. I continued on with the rest of the bottle tapering it off near the end just to be sure of some rebound thing.

So I have read many posts from some of you guys using formestane and other AI products and some as a staple for estrogen control. Does my experience seem about typical? At 52 I still would like to create an environment that I could gain some size to something besides my stomach without drifting to far over to the dark side. Is estrogen control the answer?
 
Good questions - I would like to know the answers to them also, as I am 52 and have recently gotten back into bodybuilding. In the late 80's and early 90's I competed drug-free, and then got into golf bigtime. However, I recently caught the weight training bug again, and have been hitting the gym 3-4 times a week.

As far as supplements go, I've been taking GNC's Amplified Creatine 189, GNC's Amplified Wheybolic Extreme 60 (protein powder), USP's Asteroid Stack, and because my shoulders have been hurting, I just added USP's SuperCissus RX.

However, I know that at this age the body's hormones begin to change, and that the estro will be outproducing the testosterone, so I have been wondering which supplement may benefit me the most. I've considered PH's like Havoc and the Trifecta stack, PCT's like Reversitol and Formadrol, as well as natrual test boosters.

Right now I'm going to stick with what I've got, but I am reading as much as I can every day, and will hopefully soon make a decision as to the best "next step" for me to take!
 
Why guess and get involved with prohormones? Have you been tested for test and E2?

At your age, you may be a candidate for testosterone/hormone replacement therapy. I am sixty and have been on HRT for a little over a year now and I've never felt better and continue to set PRs in the gym. Actually, at 60 I feel better than I did at 50.

If your T is lagging and your E2 is increasing, your body may be setting your up for some significant health problems. The following is from WebMD.

The lower a man's testosterone level, the higher his risk of death -- especially death from heart disease.

The finding comes from a study of British men aged 40 to 79 by University of Cambridge gerontologist Kay-Tee Khaw, MBBCh, and colleagues.

"The men with lower testosterone levels had an increased risk of dying from any cause, but most particularly of cardiovascular disease," Khaw tells WebMD. "We looked at cancer, too, and found no evidence of a link to cancer with higher testosterone levels."
Nearly 12,000 men enrolled in the long-term study from 1993 to 1997. More than 800 of the men died by 2003; Khaw compared these men's testosterone levels to those of some 1,500 living study participants.

After adjusting for factors that might affect risk of death -- including age, weight, smoking, alcohol use, high blood pressure, diabetes, physical activity, education, and social class -- the link between low testosterone and earlier death remained.

Compared to men with the lowest quartile (25%) of testosterone levels:
• Men in the second lowest quartile were 25% less likely to die.
• Men in the second highest quartile were 38% less likely to die.
• Men in the highest quartile were 41% less likely to die.

I took a copy of the original research study to my physician and told him I wanted to be in that top quartile. That's where I am now.
 
Nearly every male over the age of 50 is estrogen dominant and it gets worse as we age. Estrogen control becomes essential for good health, longevity and the prevention of prostate cancer. My favorite form of estrogen control is DIM. It’s completely natural and has a lot of good science behind it. It basically lowers E2 in favor of weaker estrogens and can be used as a staple. I also use herbal test boosters to increase my natural test. My favorite in this area is stinging nettle root. Again it has a lot of good scientific research behind it and has been used in Europe for years. Nettle has to be cycled since it is exogenous and will lose its efficacy over time. Moreover, low dose bio-identical progesterone should be a staple for everyone over the age of 50. It helps control estrogen and keeps the prostate healthy as we age.
 
ProfBush said:
Why guess and get involved with prohormones? Have you been tested for test and E2?

.
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I asked my doctor for a blood test about a year in a half ago during a physical. He didn't feel it was at all necessary. He said "your like one big muscle" He also stated that I have no reason to suspect any androgen problems good hair on legs no dysfunction and very healthy. It would have made me feel a hell of a lot better just to see the numbers, but his attitude was when you fool with mother nature you sometimes get unexpected results. The doctor also thought that at my age I wouldn't be building any additional muscle. A depressing day to be sure!
 
BBB said:
Nearly every male over the age of 50 is estrogen dominant and it gets worse as we age. Estrogen control becomes essential for good health, longevity and the prevention of prostate cancer. My favorite form of estrogen control is DIM. It’s completely natural and has a lot of good science behind it. It basically lowers E2 in favor of weaker estrogens and can be used as a staple. I also use herbal test boosters to increase my natural test. My favorite in this area is stinging nettle root. Again it has a lot of good scientific research behind it and has been used in Europe for years. Nettle has to be cycled since it is exogenous and will lose its efficacy over time. Moreover, low dose bio-identical progesterone should be a staple for everyone over the age of 50. It helps control estrogen and keeps the prostate healthy as we age.
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I never heard of DIM until just now so I'll have to look in to it a bit. I tried Activate (nettle product) a year or so ago, and It made me lethargic and didn't do much for me at all other than that. It was so highly touted that I was disappointed that it didn't work out. Possibly it converted to Estrogen which would account for the lethargy but who knows.
 
skiboyny said:
I never heard of DIM until just now so I'll have to look in to it a bit. I tried Activate (nettle product) a year or so ago, and It made me lethargic and didn't do much for me at all other than that. It was so highly touted that I was disappointed that it didn't work out. Possibly it converted to Estrogen which would account for the lethargy but who knows.
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The origional Activate contained I3C which is a form of DIM. I3C is converted to DIM in the body.
 
skiboyny said:
I asked my doctor for a blood test about a year in a half ago during a physical. He didn't feel it was at all necessary.
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Most doctors will not provide a script to get a blood test for Estrogen. They say it's not necessary as yours did. Rubbish. Find another doctor as this indicates their head is in the sand with regards to Estrogen effects on those of us 50+.

It also raises RED flags at the insurance companies too, so I have been told.

35 years ago a doctor told me I had Crohn's disease. He told me I would be lucky to live to be 25. I didn't have it.

That set the course for my skepticism when it comes to most doctors, not all.
 
BBB said:
The origional Activate contained I3C which is a form of DIM. I3C is converted to DIM in the body.
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My knees ached bad at the end of my cycle. Is 13C that powerfull? I also lost a percent of body fat. No strength gains and tough on my stomach also.
 
I meet someone years ago that was around 30+, full head of hair, slender muscular build, and great (per him and wife) sex drive. He could not father a child. His T and E were so reversed the doctor (supposedly) thought the man should be balding, have mild gyno, and impotent... He only found out because his zygot count was next to almost nothing... Your docotr is guessing your T & E levels are okay based on looks? Lol... In my humble opinion... Tell, him to run the test since you can afford the copay charges.
 
skiboyny said:
My knees ached bad at the end of my cycle. Is 13C that powerfull? I also lost a percent of body fat. No strength gains and tough on my stomach also.
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Both I3C and DIM work for estrogen control with DIM being the stronger of the two. If you look at Primal Male by MAN it contains I3C for estrogen control. Bear in mind that this product was designed by two of the top supplement gurus in the idustry. If it were ineffective it would not have been included.
 
I've tried DIM a few times and even at only 100 mg it kills my libido within days.

I've tried I3C and didn't see any results. Granted, I only took 200 mg a day, so I might give it another shot at a higher dose some day.

I know there's alot of research on I3C, but everybody's different, I suppose.

I've been using mangosteen pericarp, and I've been getting results, even if only anecdotal.
 
marco wolf said:
I've tried DIM a few times and even at only 100 mg it kills my libido within days.

I've tried I3C and didn't see any results. Granted, I only took 200 mg a day, so I might give it another shot at a higher dose some day.

I know there's alot of research on I3C, but everybody's different, I suppose.

I've been using mangosteen pericarp, and I've been getting results, even if only anecdotal.
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I've never heard of I3C or DIM affecting libido. They don't necessarily lower estrogen, just E2, the most harmful form of estrogen.
 
BBB said:
I've never heard of I3C or DIM affecting libido. They don't necessarily lower estrogen, just E2, the most harmful form of estrogen.
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I know what it's supposed to do, but I don't respond very well to DIM. Even IF it is lowering my E2 levels, anything that makes my johnson softer is not for me. It may be dose dependent, but if I have to worry about constantly upping or lowering the dose in order for it to "work", then I'm not interested. Others seem to have a good response to it. I don't. I've tried it three times already and I always get the same response.
 
marco wolf said:
I know what it's supposed to do, but I don't respond very well to DIM. Even IF it is lowering my E2 levels, anything that makes my johnson softer is not for me. It may be dose dependent, but if I have to worry about constantly upping or lowering the dose in order for it to "work", then I'm not interested. Others seem to have a good response to it. I don't. I've tried it three times already and I always get the same response.
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You may have responded too well. Maybe the dose was too high for you. I think there is a fine line with estrogen control. The perfect amount gives all positive but just a bit more puts everything in the tank.
 
With all these supplements its finding out whats right for you and you dont have to take everything as per directions. Find a regime thats right for you whether it be a smaller or higher dosage or taking the supplement EOD or every 3rd day.

Im currently taking 2nd gear on a eod basis.Morning wood certainly has not suffered
 
corsaking said:
With all these supplements its finding out whats right for you and you dont have to take everything as per directions. Find a regime thats right for you whether it be a smaller or higher dosage or taking the supplement EOD or every 3rd day.

Im currently taking 2nd gear on a eod basis.Morning wood certainly has not suffered
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Personally, I'd go with I3C over DIM. However, I've found that mangosteen pericarp works better for me. If I were to add I3C again, it would be more for anti-cancer/oxidant purposes.

Maybe I'll give DIM a try at EOD sometime.
 
skiboyny said:
You may have responded too well. Maybe the dose was too high for you. I think there is a fine line with estrogen control. The perfect amount gives all positive but just a bit more puts everything in the tank.
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If I try it again, I'll probably try EOD.
 
marco wolf said:
Personally, I'd go with I3C over DIM. However, I've found that mangosteen pericarp works better for me. If I were to add I3C again, it would be more for anti-cancer/oxidant purposes.

Maybe I'll give DIM a try at EOD sometime.
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cannot find any reference to mangosteen pericarp acting as an AI -can you supply please
 
I first started taking mangosteen pericarp tea that I purchased at an Asian Market. The teabags were 3 grams. I did this for about two or three months. Just recently I started taking 500 mg capsules 3 times a day. Since I'm testing something else out right now, I probably won't play around with larger doses for a little while. There are also extracts, but I like to try the full spectrum herbs out before I try out the extracts.
 
btw, the pericarp is the rind. Most of the xanthones are in the pericarp.

What makes it a good all-around supplement is that it also has the active ingredients that green tea and grape seed extract have.
 
marco wolf said:
btw, the pericarp is the rind. Most of the xanthones are in the pericarp.

What makes it a good all-around supplement is that it also has the active ingredients that green tea and grape seed extract have.
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so if it was hard to get , youcould supplement green tea with grapeseed extract for similar results?
 
corsaking said:
so if it was hard to get , youcould supplement green tea with grapeseed extract for similar results?
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No, because mangosteen is rich in xanthones, but also has the actives in green tea and grape seed. GSE and green tea aren't rich in xanthones like mangosteen. Taking all three would probably be a good stack.
 
corsaking said:
i can get mango steen in caps form at 500 mg per cap , how much should i take to be effective as an AI

-please see link Invalid Link Removed and give me your verdict -thanks
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These use the whole fruit. The ones I take are 100% pericarp. I'm not sure how they'd equate.

PM sent.
 
I agree with what profbush, mactech and youngblood said. Don't listen to your doctor, get the blood test. For some reason a lot of otherwise very competent drs. don't want to do it. If he won't do it get it done yourself, it's only $50. That's not much considering all the time and money you could waste otherwise.

It's not a question of just vanity, there are real health issues involved. This is one case where patience isn't a virtue.
 
Formestane is one of the best for us older guys with extra estrogen. Read up on established thread on this board, you'll find plenty of 40+ year old guys verifying it' usefullness.
 
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