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progestins and progestational hormones DO NOT cause gyno

USPLabs said:
I was interested so I asked our pharmacist(involved in drug development and responsible for some of the compounds in our newest thermogenic Plus product..release is soon) on staff for supplement development for his feedback.

what he had to say:


The fact is that the etiology with much of gynecomastia is unknown, so how can one say, "this or that definitely doesn't play a role" when no one knows how exactly most gynecomastia is formed for certain. That, along with the fact that progestins have been shown to cause gynecomastia in men and the association of progesterone with gynecomastia in one study, it would be very naive and incorrect to assume that not only does it play no role in gynecomastia, whether directly or indirectly, but that it actually combats it when there are data to the contrary.

Granted, in the majority of cases, gynecomastia is induced by estrogens, either elevated serum levels or high localized production (though this has yet to be advanced beyond a hypothesis), there are many cases of idiopathic gynecomastia which do not fit with such diagnostic criteria. It's certainly reasonable that progesterone can play a role in gynecomastia. As big of a role player as estrogens? Certainly not. But to assume it plays no role and is actually beneficial is wrong.

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Your Pharmacist is very smart.

I would add GH to the mix of hormones which can cause/exacerbate gynocomastia.
 
Dr.John, do you think Progesterone has a direct (I guess as clearly as one can define 'direct' in the complex world of hormones) on gynecomastia, or a more exacerbative effect?
 
Dr. John said:
Your Pharmacist is very smart.

I would add GH to the mix of hormones which can cause/exacerbate gynocomastia.
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First off, thank you Dr. John for posting on here. Secondly, in regards to the prolactin issue from hormones as well as HgH, how do you feel about bromo and dostinex to combat this?
 
Often people do not agree. You have given some good points yet I still tend to agree with Dr. Hertoghe and from direct experience I find progesterone cream to be favorable in reduction of gynocomastia symptoms. I will shoot him an email and see if I can get his thoughts on the matter.

I didn't realize you were in Lansing, I believe that I may have seen you speak at one of the conferences actually. Perhaps I can come in for a visit. I would like to throw some ideas by you and get your input and feedback on some current projects. Can you send me your rebuttle to Dr. Hertoghe it would be very interesting to read.
 
LegalGear said:
Often people do not agree. You have given some good points yet I still tend to agree with Dr. Hertoghe and from direct experience I find progesterone cream to be favorable in reduction of gynocomastia symptoms. I will shoot him an email and see if I can get his thoughts on the matter.
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Progesterone directly opposes estrogens in FEMALES. It has exactly the opposite effect in males. Far too many--who should know better--have not come to appreciate this important distinction.

Have you not heard of men developing gyno when on Deca-only cycles? And Deca suppresses T production powerfully, so E goes down as well.

How can you reduce DHT and still support masculinization? These are mutually exclusive actions, so cannot exist simultaneously.

The facts presented before you should suffice to alter your perception of the matter. Yes, people can disagree. They can also have their own opinions. What they may not "have" is their own facts. Or deny facts because they--for whatever reason--refuse to acknowledge truth.

Unfortunately, I was busy Co-Hosting the A4M convention when Dr. Hertoghe was gving his lecture, so missed his reasoning on PROG for men. I would be very much interested in hearing why--in the face of the facts I have presented here--he thinks men should have progesterone.

There are a lot of people teaching at A4M conventions who make mistakes. I know I have changed my mind about several important points along the way.

In fact, a few come to mind who have no business being on stage in the first place. That's what happens when A4M refuses to even cover the expenses of their lecturers--they often are left with whatever is left over. I've heard some lectures there from people who are three generations behind the cutting edge--but don't even know it.

Dr. Hertoghe is not in this group, of course.
 
Of course, I have heard of men deveoping gyno on Deca cycles, but I would certainly attribute that to DHN vs DHT conversion. Additionally, as I said, although I don't have the data in front of me, I remember Deca has a binding affinity for the PR that is quite low compared to progesterone if I remember correctly 30%. Both these attributes could antagonize gyno if nandrolone is acting as a partial agonist, you could in theory see ER upregulation. This is why I theorize that nandrolone causes gyno and a stronger progestin agonist (trenbolone which if I remember correctly has a binding affinity of 100 or over) does not typically cause gyno symptoms.

I would love to read your information on this topic, can you send me a link or a paper on it to peruse?

If Dr. H was wrong on this topic, then I will happily recant my support for his position however, I am not yet convinced and would love to read your research.
 
LegalGear said:
Of course, I have heard of men deveoping gyno on Deca cycles, but I would certainly attribute that to DHN vs DHT conversion. Additionally, as I said, although I don't have the data in front of me, I remember Deca has a binding affinity for the PR that is quite low compared to progesterone if I remember correctly 30%. Both these attributes could antagonize gyno if nandrolone is acting as a partial agonist, you could in theory see ER upregulation. This is why I theorize that nandrolone causes gyno and a stronger progestin agonist (trenbolone which if I remember correctly has a binding affinity of 100 or over) does not typically cause gyno symptoms.

I would love to read your information on this topic, can you send me a link or a paper on it to peruse?

If Dr. H was wrong on this topic, then I will happily recant my support for his position however, I am not yet convinced and would love to read your research.
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I think as I do because I study hormones and their interactions, and have put same to work over the care of literally thousands of men. I am merely reporting what I have learned to you and the other readers. IF you can find fault in my reasoning, please point out same. I do not believe you can. Especially with my years of actual clinical experience (yes, some of this stuff you just have to DO).

The strongest evidence is probably provided by the PROG vs. DHT fact. It is insurmountable to Dr. Hertoghe's position.

The idea of a "partial agonist" is on its way out. Even though the idea of competitive inhibition is well established amongst receptor actions.

Soy isoflavones are partial agonists of estrogen. And we now know they are no good for males, as they have feminizing effects.

Think of a glass of strong poison. Does adding some weak poison make drinking the glass any less poisonous? In fact, partial agonists--whether for PROG or E--simply add to the total feminizing hormonal load.

...a view from the cutting edge.
 
Dr. John said:
Nonsense. You are extrapolating a conclusion from studies conducted on women (usually postmenopausal), NOT men.

Progesterone, and the synthetic variants known as progestins, are feminizing hormones in men. They lower DHT (by your own post, isn't that a feminizing result?), they elevate SHBG, they can cause gyno (I have seen this numerous times in my practice). I have also seen them elevate blood pressure excessively.

When I have a guy tuned up just right, but he still has sexual issues, I check his progesterone. Many times it is elevated. The problem is, no one has a good answer as to what to do for that.

To be sure, everyone is different, and there are rare occasions when an adult male could use a little progesterone. I have exactly one patient who fits that bill.

You must come to appreciate the vast differences in the hormonal milieu between men and women.

Anyone who ever reads a post such as this one, kindly link them to my response. I read comments such as yours all over the Boards. THIS is the myth which needs to die.
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I think that the discussion between LG and yourself is going to clear up a lot. From reading your resepcted input, I was wondering if you would suggest possible protocols/ or methods that should be used in the concerned steroid-using athlete.
 
celc5 said:
subbed
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Double-subbed! I had read in the past(by a Dr. Lee) that estrogen dominance in men could be reduced by applying progesterone cream. It sounded like he knew what he was talking about. So, I ordered some and having been using very low doses of it as he (Dr.Lee) suggested. Much less than women need. But if this is all WRONG, I need to know. I would immediately stop using the progesterone cream if it is PROVEN to worsen, not help, estrogen levels in men. I was definitely under the impression that the cream would help to lower estrogen. Let's get to the real conclusion on this. I know of others who use the progesterone cream under this same imprression. Help Us!!!
 
LegalGear said:
Yeah, I sat in on a lecture by one of the formost experts on progestins and he indeed reinforced that progesterone reduces the effects of estrogen and gyno due to its ability to downregulate the ER.

This is the same thing that Dr. Lee said. That progesterone reduces the effects of estrogen. We need to know the truth!
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Well, I still stand by Dr. Hertoghe. I easily explained why the weakly progesterone effects of Nandrolone (deca) could antagonize gyno additionally, the DHN conversion most certainly effects its ability to cause gyno.
 
The causes of gyno are not fully understood, and to say you have a grasp on them because of a lecture you attended is ridiculous at best.

Dr. John made a great point in this thread, (amongst many others) that some of this you actually need to DO. ie You need to have real world experience.

Your replies to my points (that came from a lot of A.A.S experience in the past) didn't do anything other than further cement my opinion that you, yourself, have no real world experience and are just waxing rhetoric.

That's nice that you have a solid knowledge base on progestins. YOu do realize that when you set up a "revolutionary" and "enlightening" thread such as this, that you are setting yourself to be questioned rather harshly if you haven't in fact used A.A.S and in turn developed gland growth from it.

unsubbed.
 
thundergod said:
Double-subbed! I had read in the past(by a Dr. Lee) that estrogen dominance in men could be reduced by applying progesterone cream. It sounded like he knew what he was talking about. So, I ordered some and having been using very low doses of it as he (Dr.Lee) suggested. Much less than women need. But if this is all WRONG, I need to know. I would immediately stop using the progesterone cream if it is PROVEN to worsen, not help, estrogen levels in men. I was definitely under the impression that the cream would help to lower estrogen. Let's get to the real conclusion on this. I know of others who use the progesterone cream under this same imprression. Help Us!!!
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Dr. Lee, bless his heart, has now been shown to have been wrong about many things he said.

However, he was a legitimate pioneer; it is easy to go off track when you are navigating new territory.

Perhaps it was not known then that progesterone inhibits androgenic activity at that time.

Have you seen any actual proof that progesterone lowers estrogens, or estrogenic effects, in adult men?
 
Ubiquitous said:
The causes of gyno are not fully understood, and to say you have a grasp on them because of a lecture you attended is ridiculous at best.

Dr. John made a great point in this thread, (amongst many others) that some of this you actually need to DO. ie You need to have real world experience.

Your replies to my points (that came from a lot of A.A.S experience in the past) didn't do anything other than further cement my opinion that you, yourself, have no real world experience and are just waxing rhetoric.

That's nice that you have a solid knowledge base on progestins. YOu do realize that when you set up a "revolutionary" and "enlightening" thread such as this, that you are setting yourself to be questioned rather harshly if you haven't in fact used A.A.S and in turn developed gland growth from it.

unsubbed.
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What does "sub" mean?
 
thundergod said:
LegalGear said:
Yeah, I sat in on a lecture by one of the formost experts on progestins and he indeed reinforced that progesterone reduces the effects of estrogen and gyno due to its ability to downregulate the ER.

This is the same thing that Dr. Lee said. That progesterone reduces the effects of estrogen. We need to know the truth!
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I know that Dr. Lee said progesterone reduces the effects of estrogen IN WOMEN. This is well known in school medicine. That is why even conventional medicine provides PROG to protect the uterus when estrogen is administered.

The effect is the opposite in males. Perhaps that is where the confusion comes from.
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LegalGear said:
Well, I still stand by Dr. Hertoghe. I easily explained why the weakly progesterone effects of Nandrolone (deca) could antagonize gyno additionally, the DHN conversion most certainly effects its ability to cause gyno.
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Just a question: why would you "stand by" Dr. Hertoghe's word, and not mine? My experince in this field is as great as any physician on the planet.

Maybe it's because you have not seen me on stage. LOL
 
You didn't respond to my explanation of why it is possible for Deca to cause gyno and not Trenbolone in so many cases. Sure, one can find cases where anything caused gyno, however that isn't really the discussion point. I would say that Trenbolone isn't implicated in gyno nearly as much as Nandrolone and that certainly fits my explanation why. Additionally my former biochemist that has over 10 years of knowledge in this field agrees with Dr H.

I am not saying it is so simple, the endocrine system is obviously very complicated, but I am also disgusted by the people who are looking for reasons for gyno that are obviously outside of our understanding. I believe that DHN is the main reason for Nandralone's supposed gyno effects in my oppinion, it is certainly plausible that the reduced binding affinity is to blame for exaserbating the issue.
 
LegalGear said:
You didn't respond to my explanation of why it is possible for Deca to cause gyno and not Trenbolone in so many cases. Sure, one can find cases where anything caused gyno, however that isn't really the discussion point. I would say that Trenbolone isn't implicated in gyno nearly as much as Nandrolone and that certainly fits my explanation why. Additionally my former biochemist that has over 10 years of knowledge in this field agrees with Dr H.

I am not saying it is so simple, the endocrine system is obviously very complicated, but I am also disgusted by the people who are looking for reasons for gyno that are obviously outside of our understanding. I believe that DHN is the main reason for Nandralone's supposed gyno effects in my oppinion, it is certainly plausible that the reduced binding affinity is to blame for exaserbating the issue.
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Please ask your former biochemist how it can be that one may oppose our most powerful androgen, and not induce feminizing effects. You have yourself already stated PROG reduces DHT.

Think about it. This simple fact is insurmountable to your, Dr. H's, and your former biochemist's positions. There is simply no way around it.

Then I would respectfully ask how many hundreds of male patients any of you--or all of you, combined--have non-surgically treated for gynocomastia. There are hundreds of medical files of these cases at my office.

Elevated PROG is also a good part of high-dose HCG's gyno-inducing effects--even when a good load of AI's are already on board.
 
5aR inhibition doesn't ALWAYS cause gyno or anyone that uses propecia or proscar would have gynocomastia. So, the point that progesterone acts as a substrate for 5aR doesn't prove anything to me in it's effects on estrogen receptors. Can you show me a study showing that progesterone up-regulates estrogen receptors in men? What do you mean by opposing DHT?
 
Dr. John said:
thundergod said:
I know that Dr. Lee said progesterone reduces the effects of estrogen IN WOMEN. This is well known in school medicine. That is why even conventional medicine provides PROG to protect the uterus when estrogen is administered.

The effect is the opposite in males. Perhaps that is where the confusion comes from.
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Dr.John--- I'm really starting to lean towards you on this one. Dr. Lee didn't advise it for all men. Mostly the over 40 crowd, which I am. I'm 44 years old. He implicated that it would have the same effect on these men as it had on women. But I saw no real studies to back it up. Much like legalgear here. Everybody has theories! What we need is proof and experience. I'm about sure I'm ready to give my remaining 2 jars to some old woman!
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Dr. John said:
Dr. Lee, bless his heart, has now been shown to have been wrong about many things he said.

However, he was a legitimate pioneer; it is easy to go off track when you are navigating new territory.

Perhaps it was not known then that progesterone inhibits androgenic activity at that time.

Have you seen any actual proof that progesterone lowers estrogens, or estrogenic effects, in adult men?
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I REALLY don't like the idea of lowering androgens. As lifters and bodybuilders, this is the LAST thing we'd want to do. We CRAVE androgenic activity. And no I have seen NO real proof or studies on this matter. But I would love to. Can you, Dr.John, show me clinical studies that back up what you are saying? I would appreciate your help!
 
LegalGear said:
5aR inhibition doesn't ALWAYS cause gyno or anyone that uses propecia or proscar would have gynocomastia. So, the point that progesterone acts as a substrate for 5aR doesn't prove anything to me in it's effects on estrogen receptors. Can you show me a study showing that progesterone up-regulates estrogen receptors in men? What do you mean by opposing DHT?
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The important thing to understand is gyno is the LAST ill side effect from 5-AR inhibition. So who wants to have their hormones moving in an anti-masculine direction, with or without gyno? To say lowering DHT is not feminizing, in any case, is not congruent with reality.

And why are you so hung up on ER regulation? You're getting off on a tangent here.
 
thundergod said:
I REALLY don't like the idea of lowering androgens. As lifters and bodybuilders, this is the LAST thing we'd want to do. We CRAVE androgenic activity. And no I have seen NO real proof or studies on this matter. But I would love to. Can you, Dr.John, show me clinical studies that back up what you are saying? I would appreciate your help!
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I'm not much for saving and posting scientific studies. IOW, doing other people's research for them. I read a study, evaluate what it says--and just as importantly, what it DOES NOT say (where most on the boards go astray), add it to my knowledge base, and move on. Then I apply the clinical exprince of working with thousands of patients. As long as all is congruent, I gain confidence in what I am doing.

We have all already agreed PROG inhibits DHT. THAT is what it was first used for in TRT medicine, applied directly to the scrotum sometimes. My friend Dr. Shippen used to do that, and has since abandoned administration of PROG for men.
 
It doesn't oppose DHT, it simply partially acts as a substrate for 5aR. If you listen to Dr. H you realize that the partial reduction of DHT is one of the benefits that he reports, some men (especially young) have an over active sex drive and it is also used to combat the neurological aspects of DHT which can cause sleeplessness, anxiety etc...

Plus, you are mixing apples and oranges, where I am trying to show the the term "progestational" as used in the realm of anabolic steroid users DO NOT cause gyno. The discussion of when to use progesterone cream isn't really the topic. People on the boards don't understand what you are saying and make stupid statements about steroids "supposed" progestational effects as if they are adding to the gynocomastia potential of a steroid. People even implicate M1T and SDrol of being progestational possibly...idiotic.

So, nothing I have heard would oppose Dr. Hertoghe's use and ideas `surrounding progesterone. Nor does the treatment of men who take mega anabolic cocktails really count for anything germaine to either conversation.

Deca causes gyno because of the conversion to DHN primarily. Trenebolone rarely causes gyno even thought it has a RBA of 120 for the PR because it does not convert to a dehydro version that is lesser in it's effect.
 
Dr. John said:
I'm not much for saving and posting scientific studies. IOW, doing other people's research for them. I read a study, evaluate what it says--and just as importantly, what it DOES NOT say (where most on the boards go astray), add it to my knowledge base, and move on. Then I apply the clinical exprince of working with thousands of patients. As long as all is congruent, I gain confidence in what I am doing.

We have all already agreed PROG inhibits DHT. THAT is what it was first used for in TRT medicine, applied directly to the scrotum sometimes. My friend Dr. Shippen used to do that, and has since abandoned administration of PROG for men.
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Thank you very much for replying Dr.John. I know you are a very busy man. You are also highly esteemed. I have no worries about high DHT(especially hairloss,that happened in my 20's,I'm slick as an onion). And I think that DHT gets a bad rap on prostate issues. Estrogen, again, seems to be the culprit here. Upon what I have heard from you Dr.John, I am immediately ceasing the use of my progesterone cream and giving it to some needy old woman! Thanks Again!
 
LegalGear said:
The discussion of when to use progesterone cream isn't really the topic. People on the boards don't understand what you are saying and make stupid statements Well, progesterone is the topic, so I had questions about my using the cream.
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LegalGear said:
It doesn't oppose DHT, it simply partially acts as a substrate for 5aR. If you listen to Dr. H you realize that the partial reduction of DHT is one of the benefits that he reports, some men (especially young) have an over active sex drive and it is also used to combat the neurological aspects of DHT which can cause sleeplessness, anxiety etc...

Plus, you are mixing apples and oranges, where I am trying to show the the term "progestational" as used in the realm of anabolic steroid users DO NOT cause gyno. The discussion of when to use progesterone cream isn't really the topic. People on the boards don't understand what you are saying and make stupid statements about steroids "supposed" progestational effects as if they are adding to the gynocomastia potential of a steroid. People even implicate M1T and SDrol of being progestational possibly...idiotic.

So, nothing I have heard would oppose Dr. Hertoghe's use and ideas `surrounding progesterone. Nor does the treatment of men who take mega anabolic cocktails really count for anything germaine to either conversation.

Deca causes gyno because of the conversion to DHN primarily. Trenebolone rarely causes gyno even thought it has a RBA of 120 for the PR because it does not convert to a dehydro version that is lesser in it's effect.
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I guess I write for the others.

You keep splitting hairs. I'll try one more time. PROG is administereed specifically to control DHT. You have admitted this several times. That IS a feminizing influence. By definition. Okay, how many guys out there want to take hormones which have a feminizing effect?

How about this: the gents who have come to me on PROG who feel like crap (medical phrase). I D/C the PROG, and their issues clear up.

Properly administered TRT (the basis of Dr. H's lecture) does not cause issues due to elevated DHT. At least it does not in mine. And nothing about that includes PROG for men.

I know Dr. H also likes finasteride, and he is, from what I understand, pretty quick to prescribe same. I totally disagree with that one, too. BTW, so does Dr. Eugene Shippen.

Irrespective of the direction of any of these posts, your original premise is wrong.
 
Speaking of the original premise, Deca is a progestin. If you can get gyno from Deca--whether from its direct effects or a downstream metabolite--it still was the addition of the Deca which led to the gyno. That is to say, if said individual did not take Deca, he would not have developed the gyno.
 
thundergod said:
Thank you very much for replying Dr.John. I know you are a very busy man. You are also highly esteemed. I have no worries about high DHT(especially hairloss,that happened in my 20's,I'm slick as an onion). And I think that DHT gets a bad rap on prostate issues. Estrogen, again, seems to be the culprit here. Upon what I have heard from you Dr.John, I am immediately ceasing the use of my progesterone cream and giving it to some needy old woman! Thanks Again!
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You drilled one right up the power ally with that one.

Read you now, believe you later: in ten years, IMPO, everyone will know how right you are about that one.
 
Dr. John said:
You drilled one right up the power ally with that one.

Read you now, believe you later: in ten years, IMPO, everyone will know how right you are about that one.
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Dr.John, coming from you, that made my day! Thanks for all the information you have provided. And yes, the progesterone cream is OUT the window! Have a great day indeed, Dr.John!!!
 
thundergod said:
Dr.John, coming from you, that made my day! Thanks for all the information you have provided. And yes, the progesterone cream is OUT the window! Have a great day indeed, Dr.John!!!
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The first one I heard make mention of E and prostate morbidity was no other than Dr. Hertoghe himself. In fact, he said he GIVES DHT to men with BPH, and their prostates shrink. It then "overpowers" (for lack of a better word) estrogen.

DHT is not the enemy.
 
i am not splitting hairs. Reducing DHT isn't inherintly feminizing...you are trying to tell me propecia and proscar feminize men? A slight reduction in DHT could in some cases be a good thing as in the case of Nandrolone which is used in cancer patients quite often it reduces DHT in favor of DHN.

Still, the progesatational effects of anabolics do not cause gyno on their own according to anything I have witnessed. Deca's weak binding to the PR could be implicated, but not Trenbolone which binds strongly to the PR, mimicing the effects of progesterone. So, when someone wrongly says "it must be that M1T is a progestin to cause the gyno" is what I am trying to dismiss here. That arguement is used for so many steroids erronously and it is plain wrong. Now, we can discuss in a different thread the fine points and no one is suggesting the uncontrolled use of progesterone cream for men UNLESS there is specific need for it.
 
LegalGear said:
i am not splitting hairs. Reducing DHT isn't inherintly feminizing...you are trying to tell me propecia and proscar feminize men? A slight reduction in DHT could in some cases be a good thing as in the case of Nandrolone which is used in cancer patients quite often it reduces DHT in favor of DHN.

Still, the progesatational effects of anabolics do not cause gyno on their own according to anything I have witnessed. Deca's weak binding to the PR could be implicated, but not Trenbolone which binds strongly to the PR, mimicing the effects of progesterone. So, when someone wrongly says "it must be that M1T is a progestin to cause the gyno" is what I am trying to dismiss here. That arguement is used for so many steroids erronously and it is plain wrong. Now, we can discuss in a different thread the fine points and no one is suggesting the uncontrolled use of progesterone cream for men UNLESS there is specific need for it.
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Now I see where your thinking has gone astray. You simply do not possess the knowledge base to make this argument.

And I could give you gyno with PROG. This is a simple fact.

Consider also the effects of progestins on the HPTA (causing hypogonadism), AND the long half-lives of metabolites.

It's obvious you simply aren't going to see this. I am now merely repeating myself. Good day, sir.
 
LegalGear said:
i am not splitting hairs. Reducing DHT isn't inherintly feminizing...you are trying to tell me propecia and proscar feminize men? A slight reduction in DHT could in some cases be a good thing as in the case of Nandrolone which is used in cancer patients quite often it reduces DHT in favor of DHN.

Still, the progesatational effects of anabolics do not cause gyno on their own according to anything I have witnessed. Deca's weak binding to the PR could be implicated, but not Trenbolone which binds strongly to the PR, mimicing the effects of progesterone. So, when someone wrongly says "it must be that M1T is a progestin to cause the gyno" is what I am trying to dismiss here. That arguement is used for so many steroids erronously and it is plain wrong. Now, we can discuss in a different thread the fine points and no one is suggesting the uncontrolled use of progesterone cream for men UNLESS there is specific need for it.
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I take the hint Mr.LegalGear. I have no more questions. Dr. John has satisfied them. Continue on, uninterrupted!
 
:blink:Is there a way to reduce progesterone cause i,ve got to much of it and it ain,t pretty for a man that is.

I can,t find too much info about the progesterone and how too downregulate it, raising DHT would be something, rais Test?

Thxs 10 year fina abuser up in here
 
SHBG binds to more than just testosterone and DHT, it also binds estrogen as well. I am just not convinced at all, but you don't need to convince me. It was a nice civil discussion.

I still stand by progesterone as a good thing for gynocomastia when combined with other treatments and as a general calming agent for men who are on cycle.
 
Dr. John said:
I forgot to mention that PROG also elevates SHBG. More evidence of its feminizing effects.
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I am so gald I"ve been taking transdermal formestane at the same time I've been using the progesterone. The form lowers SHBG thank goodness. I'm glad to be seeing all of this finally. No more progesterone for me. Now for me it's "all things male". Know what I mean Dr.John? Thanks!!!
 
LegalGear said:
SHBG binds to more than just testosterone and DHT, it also binds estrogen as well. I am just not convinced at all, but you don't need to convince me. It was a nice civil discussion.

I still stand by progesterone as a good thing for gynocomastia when combined with other treatments and as a general calming agent for men who are on cycle.
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"progesterone as a good thing for gynocomastia " Yes, GIVE a hormone which actually causes gyno as treatment for same.

Have you learned nothing here?

SHBG binds androgens peferentially over estrogens, with a spread of about 8%. Therefore, as SHBG goes up, it binds more and more androgens, and this creates a condition of estrogen dominance.

As I said, it is obvious you simply do not have the knowledge base to engage in this conversation in an erudite manner. At this point, I would just respectfully ask you to not try to give advice to others. You really have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Dr. John said:
"progesterone as a good thing for gynocomastia " Yes, GIVE a hormone which actually causes gyno as treatment for same.

Have you learned nothing here?

SHBG binds androgens peferentially over estrogens, with a spread of about 8%. Therefore, as SHBG goes up, it binds more and more androgens, and this creates a condition of estrogen dominance.

As I said, it is obvious you simply do not have the knowledge base to engage in this conversation in an erudite manner. At this point, I would just respectfully ask you to not try to give advice to others. You really have no idea what you are talking about.
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BRAVO Dr. John!!! You have won this debate hands down IMHO!!!
 
The way you simplfy things is really something. Then you move to the insults. If I don't agree with you, you change the discusion and ignore my points. Gee, I could have just stayed at bb.com and discussed with Pat Arnold if I wanted this. A very respected Dr. agree's with my oppinion so I am not far off and you have not given me suffecient reason to change my oppinion other than saying that progesterone reduces DHT...this is not an inherently feminizing effect, since DHT levels have an acceptable range for normal males and certainly in the use that Dr. H advises this is a good thing. You treat steroid users and I am not suggesting former steroid users use progesterone to recover or lnormal men long term in a daily fashion. We are talking about gyno and normal males who wish to reduce some of the effects of high DHT if that is a concern by using progesterone cream as needed. So, please tell me where I have made errors?

Gynocomastia often starts on a cycle and using progesterone when someone notices gyno symptoms to me is a very good thing. With the multitude of steroids out there that do not 5aR to DHT and are commonly used in steroid cycles, the reduction of DHT by the commonly used androgens have no conversion to DHT. So the likelyhood of reducing DHT on a cycle of androgens other than testosterone is ZERO (which would already be reduced by...Trenbolone, Nandrolone, Dianabol, Methyl-1-Test, Superdrol, Halodrol 50, Pharaplex, Epistane, MethoxyTRN, etc...). I am trying to help people on this board that use androgens OTHER than testosterone, which is probably 90% of them. You treat for only testosterone I am sure...which is HRT. These people are not 50 and usually don't use test.

So, eliminating the DHT issue (which is not an issue on the above mentioned steroids and 90% of people on this board) then we have have to hear some evidence that it does not reduce the effect of the ER. I have not seen that at all. In a deca cycle, it would reduce the conversion of DHN thus increasing the andogenic effect of that steroid and providing benefit. So, other than straight testosterone cycles (which are EXTREMELY rare on this board) progesterone would seem to have a very good benefit.

Have I learned nothing? Actually, not really, nothing presented here is something I didn't know. I have nothing to indicate that progesterone does not reduce estrogen receptor activity. I knew that progesterone could reduce DHT. What else was I supposed to learn? Can you please point to me something that shows progesterone to increase ER activity and I will change my position. A well respected Dr. and my biochemist both believe that progesterone reduces ER activity. Can you change my mind on this?

First off, Thundergod, this isn't a debate dude, so if you want a winner go to bb.com ok buddy? This is what is so funny about the public, just stick to the facts, which I have presented and stop falling to your knees because he is a Dr. I wouldn't suggest you use progesterone cream all the time either, but I would keep it handy if I had any gyno symptoms on cycle.

No one is suggesting the world go on progesterone cream, HOWEVER, Dr. Hertzgogue says progesterone cream is useful in select circumstances and I 100% agree with him. If I was on a cycle and I noticed gynocomastia symptoms (bear in mind I do not break the law, so I would use one of the legal prosteroids on the market that DO NOT convert to DHT) I would reach for progesterone cream. If I find myself having a hard time sleeping, I reach for the progesterone cream. I don't take it every day, but I do use it as Dr. H suggested. Dr. H is interested in treating men over 40 and DHT is OVER expressed. You are treating people recovering from steroids and I would agree with you about not using progesterone cream in this lot, usually men under 40 and I am discussing people on this board usually in their 20's that use things OTHER than testosterone 90% of the time where DHT isn't a factor.

We are all "right". There is no reason to insult me or suggest I don't have knowledge, since i have laid out very salient points. I am not saying that you are wrong in your treatment of men who have used multiple steroid cycles and are suffering from it with endocrine disfunction. I can't see how progesterone cream for them would be of any benefit and I could defininately see the downside of further reducing DHT, so I agree with you.
 
Dr. John said:
thundergod said:
I know that Dr. Lee said progesterone reduces the effects of estrogen IN WOMEN. This is well known in school medicine. That is why even conventional medicine provides PROG to protect the uterus when estrogen is administered.

The effect is the opposite in males. Perhaps that is where the confusion comes from.
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So, just point me to data showing this to be true and we can end this discussion.
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First off LordLegalGear-- I didn't mean to insult you personally just because I chose someone's opinion other than yours. Now YOU sound like Pat Arnold. And I am NOT going to bb.com just beacuse you tell me to. I can read and post on whatever boards I choose to. It's too bad we ALL get upset when others don't agree with us. Apologies to all insulted, Yours truly, THUNDERGOD!!!
 
It's cool. I don't mind spirited discussions and I am not really offended at all. I don't mind other oppinions as long as mine isn't disparaged.
 
LegalGear said:
It's cool. I don't mind spirited discussions and I am not really offended at all. I don't mind other oppinions as long as mine isn't disparaged.
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There is a difference between the "opinion" of lay persons and that of an expert in the particular field of discussion.

Bad advice IS to be disparaged. It's all about protection of the public from bad advice. That is why I responded to this thread in the first place.
 
Dr. John said:
Umm...you want me to go out and buy all of Dr. Lee's books, and go through them, so I can give you page numbers?

And get out my old OB/GYN medical books, and send you references for what everyone in medicine knows?
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I think he's asking for at least 1 piece of evidence that the effect is opposite in men, not about the effect in women. How it affects women was never a piece of this topic.
 
LegalGear said:
The way you simplfy things is really something. Then you move to the insults. If I don't agree with you, you change the discusion and ignore my points. Gee, I could have just stayed at bb.com and discussed with Pat Arnold if I wanted this. A very respected Dr. agree's with my oppinion so I am not far off and you have not given me suffecient reason to change my oppinion other than saying that progesterone reduces DHT...this is not an inherently feminizing effect, since DHT levels have an acceptable range for normal males and certainly in the use that Dr. H advises this is a good thing. You treat steroid users and I am not suggesting former steroid users use progesterone to recover or lnormal men long term in a daily fashion. We are talking about gyno and normal males who wish to reduce some of the effects of high DHT if that is a concern by using progesterone cream as needed. So, please tell me where I have made errors?

Gynocomastia often starts on a cycle and using progesterone when someone notices gyno symptoms to me is a very good thing. With the multitude of steroids out there that do not 5aR to DHT and are commonly used in steroid cycles, the reduction of DHT by the commonly used androgens have no conversion to DHT. So the likelyhood of reducing DHT on a cycle of androgens other than testosterone is ZERO (which would already be reduced by...Trenbolone, Nandrolone, Dianabol, Methyl-1-Test, Superdrol, Halodrol 50, Pharaplex, Epistane, MethoxyTRN, etc...). I am trying to help people on this board that use androgens OTHER than testosterone, which is probably 90% of them. You treat for only testosterone I am sure...which is HRT. These people are not 50 and usually don't use test.

So, eliminating the DHT issue (which is not an issue on the above mentioned steroids and 90% of people on this board) then we have have to hear some evidence that it does not reduce the effect of the ER. I have not seen that at all. In a deca cycle, it would reduce the conversion of DHN thus increasing the andogenic effect of that steroid and providing benefit. So, other than straight testosterone cycles (which are EXTREMELY rare on this board) progesterone would seem to have a very good benefit.

Have I learned nothing? Actually, not really, nothing presented here is something I didn't know. I have nothing to indicate that progesterone does not reduce estrogen receptor activity. I knew that progesterone could reduce DHT. What else was I supposed to learn? Can you please point to me something that shows progesterone to increase ER activity and I will change my position. A well respected Dr. and my biochemist both believe that progesterone reduces ER activity. Can you change my mind on this?

First off, Thundergod, this isn't a debate dude, so if you want a winner go to bb.com ok buddy? This is what is so funny about the public, just stick to the facts, which I have presented and stop falling to your knees because he is a Dr. I wouldn't suggest you use progesterone cream all the time either, but I would keep it handy if I had any gyno symptoms on cycle.

No one is suggesting the world go on progesterone cream, HOWEVER, Dr. Hertzgogue says progesterone cream is useful in select circumstances and I 100% agree with him. If I was on a cycle and I noticed gynocomastia symptoms (bear in mind I do not break the law, so I would use one of the legal prosteroids on the market that DO NOT convert to DHT) I would reach for progesterone cream. If I find myself having a hard time sleeping, I reach for the progesterone cream. I don't take it every day, but I do use it as Dr. H suggested. Dr. H is interested in treating men over 40 and DHT is OVER expressed. You are treating people recovering from steroids and I would agree with you about not using progesterone cream in this lot, usually men under 40 and I am discussing people on this board usually in their 20's that use things OTHER than testosterone 90% of the time where DHT isn't a factor.
We are all "right". There is no reason to insult me or suggest I don't have knowledge, since i have laid out very salient points. I am not saying that you are wrong in your treatment of men who have used multiple steroid cycles and are suffering from it with endocrine disfunction. I can't see how progesterone cream for them would be of any benefit and I could defininately see the downside of further reducing DHT, so I agree with you.
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We are not "all right". You have not laid out salient points. And if you did disparage my medical therapies it would say a lot about you, and nothing about me. Let's be real.

You need to do a lot of studying, and perhaps open your mind a bit when a doctor (who has treated literally thousands of men for these conditions, and creates new treatment protocols the rest of the world now employs) tries to teach you something.

The overwhelming majority of my patients are there for age-related hypogonadism. So, I do what Dr. Hertoghe does, yet have treated hordes of men for steroid-related issues as well. I do not treat women, though--although this is where many in my field go astray, as they fail to appreciate the vast differences in the hormonal milieu across the sexes.

I know other guys have benefited from my efforts here, and for that I am thankful.
 
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