Pro-/Prebiotics, the Gut, and Muscle Mass

[Par Deus]

Hey yall, been awhile.

Posted this in the Nutrition forum but to no response. Does anyone even into science, anymore? Reddit isn't, bb.com isn't, I could not get a critical mass even at Avant forums.

Anyway, I wrote a big ass write-up (almost 11K words, 550+ references) on the post title.

Would be very interested in thoughts, critiques, questions, etc.

Probiotics, the Gut, and Muscle Mass -- Part 1 - Product Science - Avant Labs
Probiotics, the Gut, and Muscle Mass -- Part 2 - Product Science - Avant Labs
Probiotics, the Gut, and Muscle Mass -- Part 3 - Product Science - Avant Labs
Probiotics, the Gut, and Muscle Mass -- Part 4 - Product Science - Avant Labs
Probiotics, the Gut, and Muscle Mass -- Part 5 - Product Science - Avant Labs

 

[HIT4ME]

WTF - Been a while? Just like that?

And then he drops 11,000 words with a reference for every 20 words.

I'm in.

 

[Rockzilla]

“Fermenting a cucumber into a pickle amps up a cuke's powers, infusing the crunchy veggie with probiotics. Like sauerkraut, not all pickles offer the good bacteria, though. Look for those made with brine (salt and water) rather than vinegar.”-health.com

I’m shook. I was actually into eating pickles for a time, but probably wasnt even eating the right ones. Vinegar is even pro-anti bacterial which isn’t conducive for good gut flora.

Where does “cuke” come from?
Also let’s not exclude how much better fermented food is for your gut health than pills. I bet adding a tablespoon of sauerkraut every day can boast some good bacteria.

 

[Par Deus]

Rockzilla is secretly Tony Snark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CGO5imNLPc

 

[Ape McGrapes]

I'll def give a read.

 

[Jiigzz]

These are awesome man, well written and researched

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Very well-referenced write-ups, but this excerpt:

We briefly mentioned hardgainers and the “skinny fat” phenotype, earlier. You definitely want to fix your gut. I would expect around an extra 10 lbs of muscle in a year, as your body starts living up to its genetic potential.

An EXTRA 10lbs of muscle a year for how long? If this rate is sustained for even a few years for a beginner “hard-gainer,” you’re looking at a very highly muscled individual. You’d be getting into the upper echelon of natural lifters in only a few years at this rate. I can’t help but think that, while your write-up itself may be well-referenced and supported, this last part is more sales pitch than science. Again, not knocking your actual write-up, and I do understand that you have to try a little to actually sell stuff.

 

[Par Deus]

Very well-referenced write-ups, but this excerpt:


An EXTRA 10lbs of muscle a year for how long? If this rate is sustained for even a few years for a beginner “hard-gainer,” you’re looking at a very highly muscled individual. You’d be getting into the upper echelon of natural lifters in only a few years at this rate. I can’t help but think that, while your write-up itself may be well-referenced and supported, this last part is more sales pitch than science. Again, not knocking your actual write-up, and I do understand that you have to try a little to actually sell stuff.

To infinite and beyond!!

No, I mean in the first year. I actually meant that to indicate that this is a long-term thing, as opposed to immediate HYOOGE GAINZ like it was an androgen or the 2 supplement ads I am seeing right below this post box.

This is the kind of critique I want. This is not a terribly simple concept to try to explain.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

To infinite and beyond!!

No, I mean in the first year. I actually meant that to indicate that this is a long-term thing, as opposed to immediate HYOOGE GAINZ like it was an androgen or the 2 supplement ads I am seeing right below this post box.

This is the kind of critique I want. This is not a terribly simple concept to try to explain.

Ok. That makes more sense. So you’re saying that those 10lbs would be more of a restoring you to what would be a “healthy/ideal baseline” that you “could/would have” been at if this issue/problem didn’t exist at all, and that this process of essentially “catching up” can take a little while?

 

[Par Deus]

Ok. That makes more sense. So you’re saying that those 10lbs would be more of a restoring you to what would be a “healthy/ideal baseline” that you “could/would have” been at if this issue/problem didn’t exist at all, and that this process of essentially “catching up” can take a little while?

Yes. And, that the more indicators of inflammatory and/or epigenetic "failure", the more useful fixing your gut would be.

 

[Par Deus]

I also wrote a couple really thorough write-ups on pro-/prebiotics, the gut and body fat. They are product write-ups, so grain of salt and all that, but there is a ton of just the basic science/data (and, like 400+ unique references between them). A bit of repeat, as they are meant to also be able to be read as standalone...

Probiotics:

http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/ent...otictm-part-1/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/ent...dients-part-1/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/ent...l-ingredients/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/ent...-with-science/


Prebiotics:
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/ent...imertm-part-1/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/ent...ience-preface/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/ent...m-ingredients/

I am interested in any thoughts, critiques, questions, etc., on these, as well.

 

[John Smeton]

I use probiotics and feel they matter. They help intestines work better work?

My brother eats fermented cabbage, sauerkraut , fermented yogurt and spends time time to make these. I dont so I just use a probiotic. My sister is into probiotics as well , has two kids shes seemed to see a difference on with them.

 

[cubsfan815]

I feel probiotics have definitely helped me from getting as sick as much. I used to get sick 3 times a year, now hardly at all. I also think it has raised libido!

 

[mn72661]

Yes. And, that the more indicators of inflammatory and/or epigenetic "failure", the more useful fixing your gut would be.

Im convinced, at the very least for myself, that gut health and resulting assimilation issues are the primary reason most of us are leaving gains on the table. Sleep quality and everything else is of course a major factor, but I think the primacy of gut health is undeniable. Our modern Western culture I think ironically makes it one of the harder things to maintain day in and day out.

About to run shock therapy as part of a broader kill phase of restoring my gut health. I know 10 days is the general recommendation, would longer be I'll advised across the board?

 

[Par Deus]

Im convinced, at the very least for myself, that gut health and resulting assimilation issues are the primary reason most of us are leaving gains on the table. Sleep quality and everything else is of course a major factor, but I think the primacy of gut health is undeniable. Our modern Western culture I think ironically makes it one of the harder things to maintain day in and day out.

About to run shock therapy as part of a broader kill phase of restoring my gut health. I know 10 days is the general recommendation, would longer be I'll advised across the board?

A bottle lasts 10 days. It is not like it is the perfect number of days. Because of bioavailabilty and pharmacokinetics, it is not gonna so thoroughly destroy the flora that you get yeast infection or such, but it seems like a decent "best guess".

 

[Par Deus]

Im convinced, at the very least for myself, that gut health and resulting assimilation issues are the primary reason most of us are leaving gains on the table. Sleep quality and everything else is of course a major factor, but I think the primacy of gut health is undeniable. Our modern Western culture I think ironically makes it one of the harder things to maintain day in and day out.

About to run shock therapy as part of a broader kill phase of restoring my gut health. I know 10 days is the general recommendation, would longer be I'll advised across the board?

Also, the Shock Therapy(tm) write-up, since you mentioned it, and I hadn't linked it. Again, product write-up, but lots of science.

http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/entry/6-shock-therapytm-part-1/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/entry/7-shock-therapytm-part-2/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/entry/8-shock-therapytm-ingredients-part-1/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/entry/9-shock-therapytm-ingredients-part-2/

 

[Slims]

I've noticed lots of improvements from adding probiotics.
It surprises me how few and far between these type of products are. The gut is like a second brain and without a properly functioning gut how can anyone expect to reach their full potential. You can consume the best foods in the world, but if your body can't absorb or use the nutrients from those foods it's just a waste.

 

[megadeth]

Also, the Shock Therapy(tm) write-up, since you mentioned it, and I hadn't linked it. Again, product write-up, but lots of science.

http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/entry/6-shock-therapytm-part-1/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/entry/7-shock-therapytm-part-2/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/entry/8-shock-therapytm-ingredients-part-1/
http://avantlabs.com/forum/blogs/entry/9-shock-therapytm-ingredients-part-2/

Will you still be releasing the products in the store?

 

[Par Deus]

Will you still be releasing the products in the store?

I'd certainly be willing to have them carry the line.

I don't even know who runs/owns this place, now.

I feel terrible about it, but the dude who created this place was good science people, and his username does not come to the top of my head (I keep thinking "Bane", but he was the last independent smart guy on bb.com)

It has had many "influences" since then, and that was not counting the last 10 years.

 

[Par Deus]

I've noticed lots of improvements from adding probiotics.
It surprises me how few and far between these type of products are. The gut is like a second brain and without a properly functioning gut how can anyone expect to reach their full potential. You can consume the best foods in the world, but if your body can't absorb or use the nutrients from those foods it's just a waste.

I haven't finished the Gut and Brain write-up, but a couple money/funny quotes from research papers...

"The human gut harbors a dynamic and complex microbial ecosystem, consisting of approximately 1 kg of bacteria in the average adult, approximately the weight of the human brain"

"Microbiome is the community of microorganism that co-live with a host. The human being is the result of the integration of its genome and the coexistence with millions of microorganisms throughout its evolutionary history. Human-microbiome association can be considered a step of integration in evolution, constituting a superorganism."

 

[Par Deus]

Bobo!!!!

That is the dude who created this place.

What a goofy name for such a smart dude.

I had to search through the Avant/M&M archives to find it.

First result with "anabolic minds" search was this...

Click the links, read it all, try to understand and behold how awesome things used to be on the message boards before the dumb, fucking reddit, and amazon (and, this is 2006, this was the twilight of the gods)

http://avantlabs.com/forum/topic/23095-bbcom-fun/?tab=comments#comment-321254

 

[megadeth]

I'd certainly be willing to have them carry the line.

I don't even know who runs/owns this place, now.

I feel terrible about it, but the dude who created this place was good science people, and his username does not come to the top of my head (I keep thinking "Bane", but he was the last independent smart guy on bb.com)

It has had many "influences" since then, and that was not counting the last 10 years.

No I meant the Avant labs store, or any store for that matter. I can't figure out how or where to order your products.

 

[Par Deus]

No I meant the Avant labs store, or any store for that matter. I can't figure out how or where to order your products.

DPS and Nutraplanet have them

 

[megadeth]

DPS and Nutraplanet have them

Nope. The probiotic products in the Avant store.

 

[Par Deus]

Nope. The probiotic products in the Avant store.

Same ones. Set those up in case we sell direct, but we do not.

Literally, "Available at http://www.dpsnutrition.net/ and https://nutraplanet.com/ "

Unless you are finding link to buy direct that accidentally got in there (that **** does occasionally happen)

 

[megadeth]

Same ones. Set those up in case we sell direct, but we do not.

Literally, "Available at http://www.dpsnutrition.net/ and https://nutraplanet.com/ "

Unless you are finding link to buy direct that accidentally got in there (that **** does occasionally happen)

Ok finally found them. Thnx

 

[jamesm11]

Is this the "neobium" products? If so, can you explain the difference between the products, and how they should be used?

 

[Resolve10]

Is this the "neobium" products? If so, can you explain the difference between the products, and how they should be used?

Still making my way through the deep write ups so I’m sure I’ll be corrected but as far as differences/uses it appears:

Shock therapy: antibacterial/antiviral for eliminating what we don’t want

Suprabiotic: actual probiotic strains for building up the ones you want

Primer: prebiotics to now help those that we’ve built up thrive

Hope that’s not too far off and that helps!

 

[Par Deus]

Is this the "neobium" products? If so, can you explain the difference between the products, and how they should be used?

Yes.

Shock Therapy for 10 days (1 bottle) to get rid of the bad bacteria while kinda supporting the good bacteria and promoting the integrity of the gut barrier (bad ones escaping the "leaky gut" is a big part of the problem). This one is kinda novel, I am sure there are other products that do this because there are like 10K probiotic supplements, but i am only aware of one other that does this part.

After that

SupraBitiotic -- the probiotic -- the good bacteria (1 bottle, 30 day supply)

Primer -- the prebiotic -- it is what used to be called "fiber". It is the fuel for the good bacteria. They convert it into short-chain fatty acids, butyrate being most important. Plus, has calcium phosphate and glutamine, which are really good at protecting the integrity of the gut barrier (1 bottle, 30 day supply)

 

[Par Deus]

Still making my way through the deep write ups so I’m sure I’ll be corrected but as far as differences/uses it appears:

Shock therapy: antibacterial/antiviral for eliminating what we don’t want

Suprabiotic: actual probiotic strains for building up the ones you want

Primer: prebiotics to now help those that we’ve built up thrive

Hope that’s not too far off and that helps!

My post crossed yours, but exactly that.

 

[Ripple2352]

Yes.

Shock Therapy for 10 days (1 bottle) to get rid of the bad bacteria while kinda supporting the good bacteria and promoting the integrity of the gut barrier (bad ones escaping the "leaky gut" is a big part of the problem). This one is kinda novel, I am sure there are other products that do this because there are like 10K probiotic supplements, but i am only aware of one other that does this part.

After that

SupraBitiotic -- the probiotic -- the good bacteria (1 bottle, 30 day supply)

Primer -- the prebiotic -- it is what used to be called "fiber". It is the fuel for the good bacteria. They convert it into short-chain fatty acids, butyrate being most important. Plus, has calcium phosphate and glutamine, which are really good at protecting the integrity of the gut barrier (1 bottle, 30 day supply)

So I'd imagine it would look like running Shock Therapy first, for 10 days, alone, to try and correct a lot of the wrong that's going on?

Then would it be Suprabiotic and Primer at the same time? Or 30 days of Suprabiotic then 20 days of Primer? Would one be good to go after that? Any of these that should be run continuously?

 

[Par Deus]

So I'd imagine it would look like running Shock Therapy first, for 10 days, alone, to try and correct a lot of the wrong that's going on?

Then would it be Suprabiotic and Primer at the same time? Or 30 days of Suprabiotic then 20 days of Primer? Would one be good to go after that? Any of these that should be run continuously?

Shock Therapy part, correct.

SupraBiotic and Primer at the same time (30 days of each, per bottle), after you finish the 10 days of Shock Therapy.

And, I will add that you don't need Shock Therapy, again, unless you get off-track for a few months.

 

[mase1]

I like the write up and ideas behind the product but that is expensive combo.

 

[Par Deus]

I like the write up and ideas behind the product but that is expensive combo.

Yeah, it is not your, "Hey, maybe I will finally try probiotics" supplement system.

 

[Resolve10]

Yeah, it is not your, "Hey, maybe I will finally try probiotics" supplement system.

So the second two would be run indefinitely?

Any specific things you would note as they improve your “insides” for lack of better terms?

Or just tell me to keep reading that long write up haha I’m not done yet..

 

[andrewski48]

Yeah, it is not your, "Hey, maybe I will finally try probiotics" supplement system.

I've got shock therapy and suprabiotic on the way. After my ten days of shock therapy will menthol or curcumin interfere with suprabiotic? Should I discontinue use of products containing either for a certain period to allow suprabiotic to "build up" or is that unnecessary.

Thanks

 

[_Endure_]

I looked heavily at the suprabiotic and wrote neobium on the website and several retailers. Never heard back from neobium and no retailers had real world feedback though it looks like a great profile. Anyone who has ran it care to chime in?

 

[poison]

Your thoughts on our general habit of slamming a few scoops of whey, preworkout, etc day in and day out, with accompanying sucralose intake?

 

[Ape McGrapes]

@Par Deus What is your opinion on treatments for Chronoc Constipation/IBS-C? I've tried a few different probiotics, digestive enzymes, bitters etc. Little to no relief.

Found this interesting

Intestinal microbiota and chronic constipation

Chronic constipation is a prevalent, burdensome gastrointestinal disorder whose aetiology and pathophysiology remains poorly understood and is most likely multifactorial. Differences in the composition of the intestinal microbiota have been demonstrated ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[aaronuconn]

Your thoughts on our general habit of slamming a few scoops of whey, preworkout, etc day in and day out, with accompanying sucralose intake?

This is a good question

 

[sns8778]

Can't believe I missed this tread. I enjoy reading anything that Par does.

As someone with some really complex medical issues and food allergies, I rarely do a log/review but this is one that I may be open to doing one on at some point if anyone's interested bc I've had issues digestive health, nutrient absorption, and yeast.

 

[_Endure_]

Anyone have any feedback on the neobium probiotic?

 

[Scottfalcon]

So I'd imagine it would look like running Shock Therapy first, for 10 days, alone, to try and correct a lot of the wrong that's going on?

Then would it be Suprabiotic and Primer at the same time? Or 30 days of Suprabiotic then 20 days of Primer? Would one be good to go after that? Any of these that should be run continuously?

I'm curious as well.. assuming you would run primer and suprabiotic indefinitely?

 

[_Endure_]

^ Seems like trying to get any info on these products is sparse at best. Not sure why.

 

[Resolve10]

I'm curious as well.. assuming you would run primer and suprabiotic indefinitely?

Yes primer and suprabiotic would be run as long as feasible with shock therapy only having to be reintroduced if you fell into bad habits and needed a “reboot” of the gut again (so to speak).

 

[GreenMachineX]

I’m definitely interested in probiotics/prebiotics, but most formulas give me intense histamine rushes after a few days, including Evomuse GutHealth. Frustrating because I know it’s good stuff.

 

[Ptlhains]

I’m definitely interested in probiotics/prebiotics, but most formulas give me intense histamine rushes after a few days, including Evomuse GutHealth. Frustrating because I know it’s good stuff.

I am not able to get going on gut health either- please describe what you mean by histamine rushes.

 

[Par Deus]

So the second two would be run indefinitely?

Any specific things you would note as they improve your “insides” for lack of better terms?

Or just tell me to keep reading that long write up haha I’m not done yet..

Yeah, you would stay on SupraBiotic and primer, indefinitely. After the first month, you could halve the dosing and get more than 50% of the benefits.

On improving insides, things that are not viable as supplements include exercise and spices basically all tends toward being quite good for the gut (had to flavor some iffy meats during modern evolution -- and, lots of them just aren't commercially available/viable as supps -- garlic consitituents come to mind, but there are lots of others.)

 

[_Endure_]

So EoD is effective for the suprabiotic? Stout enough formula it seems so.

 

[Par Deus]

I've got shock therapy and suprabiotic on the way. After my ten days of shock therapy will menthol or curcumin interfere with suprabiotic? Should I discontinue use of products containing either for a certain period to allow suprabiotic to "build up" or is that unnecessary.

Thanks

No, they won't interfere in a bad way, unless maybe you are using monster doses (like in grams per day). Their anti-bacterial properties tend more toward the bad ones.