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Pregnenalone or dhea with no trt

Bigchourico said:
Vida's right. You do like to call people names.:nono:
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well if they piss me off or call me names (your pal vida inferred that I did not have the intelligence to "find a legit RC source" in his condescending and sarcastic post to me, that had nothing to do with my actual point btw)....then maybe they get called a name. I am sick and tired of arguing about fcking RC clomid right about now, but there seems to be an RC clomid warrior posting about every 12 hours for some reason. I guess RC clomid carries a lot of clout around here LMFAO.....
 
Anabolic - First I am going to agree with you, Then I am going to disagree with you, then I am going to ignore you in this thread unless it is comments that address the original posters question ( If I can't get TRT - what do I do)

I agree - if you have a GP or a TRT doctor who is open to all means of hormonal modulation, be it SERMS, HCG, T-Gels, Shots etc - of course you should get all your meds through your doctor and via prescription pharmacies. Many doctores (at least here in canada) won't go the Chlomid / HCG path as it is not approved by the sanctioned bodies.

I disagree regarding chlomid sides - whiny bitch mode happens in some who are very estrogen sensitive or who are taking too much clomid. Many people using it in PCT are taking 50 or 100 mg daily. I have no whiny bitch mode - if anything more testosterone aggressive assertive effects. And as I said, I am 53, not a 20 something - though many 20 somethings know more than me or you about this subject. I cited the medical study done by doctors at Sloan Kettering above - in which they saw no adverse side effects in a controlled study. I am taking 25 mg 3 times a week - and hope to be able to reduce it to 12.5 mg 3 times a week and still get a substantial testosterone increase, without having to go to exogenous testosterone.

Interesting comments from an MD

The 5 Main Reasons Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) May be a Good Alternative to Testosterone Replacement Therapy in Men with Low Testosterone Due to Secondary Hypogonadism:
1.Clomiphene citrate stimulates the body's own production of testosterone
2.Clomiphene citrate doesn't interfere with the body's checks and balances of testosterone
3.Clomiphene citrate comes as a pill easily administered by mouth
4.Clomiphene citrate is generic and very cheap
5.Clomiphene citrate has little side-effects and low risk of developing these side-effects

The 5 MainR easons Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) is Not Usually Prescribed to Men with Low Testosterone Due to Secondary Hypogonadism:

1. Most doctors aren't aware of the efficacy and safety of clomiphene use in men
2. Most doctors think of Clomid as a "women's drug" to increase fertility
3. Clomid isFDA approved only for use in women
4. Clomid use in men is considered "off label"
5.Clomiphene citrate is now generic and really inexpensive so it's not advertised very much

so ... IF one does NOT have access to a GP or TRT doctor who will provide them a prescription for chlomid, one may still consider purchasing generic chlomid via mail order ( i prefer this route over research chemicals). If one is going to do so, it would be recommended to have a source for regular blood tests lined up - at least Total Testosterone, SHBG and Estradiol - to see what effect the dose one is taking is having. I have found a doctor who does my testing regularly so I can modify dose, add other supplements for estrogen control and see the effects, and one can purchase online salivat testing or blood testing (ZRTlabs or LEF.org come to mind)

Since the original poster said "If I'm not able to get TRT" one must assume he is asking about solutions that don't directly require a doctor's prescription (hence research chemicals coming into the discussion), not about your personal choice and good fortune to have a great GP that is very helpful for you.
 
A good description of the alternatives - from the blog of Dr Shira Miller - who is an anti-aging TRT doc and was voted one of 16 "docs to watch" in 2012. Underline is mine.

With traditional testosterone replacement therapy, the brain (hypothalamus and pituitary) gets the message that there is plenty of testosterone being made in the testes, so much so that it doesn't need to make anymore. Subsequently, the pituitary stops producing LH, and the natural production of testosterone (and sperm) in the testes ceases, which is why traditional testosterone replacement results in testicular shrinkage and low sperm count...a man's testosterone and sperm manufacturing plant is essentially shut off.

Clomiphene citrate and/or HCG do not turn off the testosterone manufacturing plant but rather turn it back on or reboot it. While some hypogonadal men require continuous use of clomiphene, for others it can be used for a 3-6 month time period and then discontinued. And, the checks and balances system is not interrupted, so there aren't the testosterone replacement side-effects which occur due to intentional or unintentional testosterone overdosing. Most interestingly, although it used to be thought that clomiphene and/or HCG only worked on young men, in the past decade or so it has been used effectively in older men too.
 
I agree with all that.....esp the low dose MWF clomid protocol. if that is an effective dose it will negate any adverse side effects. I'm still not sold on taking clomid for life though....I'd opt for test 4 life if i was going to be taking something that long term. but yeah i can see taking clomid in that dosing protocol being a viable option for many guys. I also agree about choosing overseas pharmacy tabs to the RC crap ....but these pharms are also hit or miss as i have alluded to before. Will you receive your shipment? will it be bunk? is it accurately dosed? As you say though if you are in a predicament where your doc won't prescribe it for you (an anti-aging doc will most likely btw...) you can always use trial and error using various non-rx clomid options while getting bloods to see if its legit or not.
 
AnabolicHolic said:
I agree with all that.....esp the low dose MWF clomid protocol. if that is an effective dose it will negate any adverse side effects. I'm still not sold on taking clomid for life though....I'd opt for test 4 life if i was going to be taking something that long term. but yeah i can see taking clomid in that dosing protocol being a viable option for many guys. I also agree about choosing overseas pharmacy tabs to the RC crap ....but these pharms are also hit or miss as i have alluded to before. Will you receive your shipment? will it be bunk? is it accurately dosed? As you say though if you are in a predicament where your doc won't prescribe it for you (an anti-aging doc will most likely btw...) you can always use trial and error using various non-rx clomid options while getting bloods to see if its legit or not.
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I am just going to toss a brand name out there I hope I am not breaking any rules if so mod please delete and I apologize.

If you go with a major brand for instance from India like "Cooper" "I left out part of the name to be safe" you will get a drug that has passed that counties own version of the FDA the chances of you getting a fake are about equal to CVS giving you a fake maybe slightly higher but odds are in your favor here. I am not trying to beat a dead horse here but I just do not think there is any reason at all to worry if you are ordering a legitimate over seas brand name.

FYI this is not sourcing as they will not sell to you directly its a manufacture/distributor.
 
I see my naturopath today who will likely give me a req for a new round of testing. This will be after about 6 months total on chlomid at various dose rates - the last two months have been 25 mg ever Monday Wednesday Friday. I have also been doing two tabs of PES erase a day for about a month. Should get the bloodwork results in the next week or two and will post how it is going. I suspect the PES erase has not been enough to get my estrogen fully in check - morning wood and libido (crack of dawn gets me hard) but would have expected a bit more body recomp / drying out if it was doing what I hoped for.

Will post results synopsis when I have it.

Question - if one has to go with a prescription aromatase inhibitor - any recommendations regarding exemestane or armidex ? Armidex is cheap and I can get easily - but has more lipid profile issues I think. Exemestane has been hard for me to find and is substantially more expensive when I do, but less lipid issues and apparently increases growth hormone as well. Apologies to orignial poster - here I talk about hijacking thread and now I am hijacking it for myself - although - he did mention an anti-aromatase in his orignal post so kind of on topic.
 
haritec said:
I see my naturopath today who will likely give me a req for a new round of testing. This will be after about 6 months total on chlomid at various dose rates - the last two months have been 25 mg ever Monday Wednesday Friday. I have also been doing two tabs of PES erase a day for about a month. Should get the bloodwork results in the next week or two and will post how it is going. I suspect the PES erase has not been enough to get my estrogen fully in check - morning wood and libido (crack of dawn gets me hard) but would have expected a bit more body recomp / drying out if it was doing what I hoped for.

Will post results synopsis when I have it.

Question - if one has to go with a prescription aromatase inhibitor - any recommendations regarding exemestane or armidex ? Armidex is cheap and I can get easily - but has more lipid profile issues I think. Exemestane has been hard for me to find and is substantially more expensive when I do, but less lipid issues and apparently increases growth hormone as well. Apologies to orignial poster - here I talk about hijacking thread and now I am hijacking it for myself - although - he did mention an anti-aromatase in his orignal post so kind of on topic.
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I also have been taking either A) one PES Erase Pro or B) one OG Erase morning and one night. I'd like to see what difference the 2x a day with the OG Erase makes when you find out. I am using Androgel for TRT at 11-12 pumps a day....I was at 687 test level at 8 pumps (2 pumps in the groin area mind you, probably 100% DHT conversion) So i extrapolate from those #'s that I'd be up in the 900's??? So similar to your #'s on clomid if you are in the 800's from what I read??? I'll probably get blood work done soon and let the doc know I was applying extra pumps since I had extra pumps laying around....he actually recommended to me to apply extra pumps "when I needed a boost", I assume a sexual boost? He said he did it all the time with his testim lol. I will probably go with one Erase Pro per day when the OG Erase runs out. And we go off tangent on threads all the time on this board, matter of fact most of the good info comes on off-topic posts by members on threads that have nothing to do with the original topic posted.
 
w8lifter said:
Vinny, what are your thoughts on Nolvadex vs. Clomid for long term hrt? In some forums I'm hearing nolvadex better than clomid for my purposes. Thx.
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Everything I have read about trt for people who are not ready or unwilling to use testosterone talk about clomid I've never seen them mention nolvadex.
 
w8lifter said:
Vinny, what are your thoughts on Nolvadex vs. Clomid for long term hrt? In some forums I'm hearing nolvadex better than clomid for my purposes. Thx.
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I have only seen the one study using clomid for hrt. That being said I have seen one study comparing many popular SERMs and Tamoxifene had the largest testosterone increase among those compared ill see if I can find a link.
 
harbonah said:
I have only seen the one study using clomid for hrt. That being said I have seen one study comparing many popular SERMs and Tamoxifene had the largest testosterone increase among those compared ill see if I can find a link.
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Sadly clomid was not compared.
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harbonah said:
I have only seen the one study using clomid for hrt. That being said I have seen one study comparing many popular SERMs and Tamoxifene had the largest testosterone increase among those compared ill see if I can find a link.
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You're saying tamoxifen does a better job at raising testosterone levels than clomid? Most trt/hrt places use clomid including mine. Never heard of any using tamoxifen.
 
Apparently clomiphene is a serm targeting the hypothalamus and pituitary versus nolvadex which targets breast tissue. In this I can see clomid being more effective at stimulating lh and fsh for the testis to churn out natural test.
 
w8lifter said:
Apparently clomiphene is a serm targeting the hypothalamus and pituitary versus nolvadex which targets breast tissue. In this I can see clomid being more effective at stimulating lh and fsh for the testis to churn out natural test.
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Put simply no you are inaccurate when it comes to how tamoxifen works.
SERM's that effect testosterone do so by tricking the hypothalamus into thinking there are fewer sex hormones circulating in the blood. and as a result the gland secretes more GnRH hormone which makes the body produce more LH, leading to stimulation of testosterone in the testes.
See below for a good read on this subject.
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harbonah said:
Put simply no you are inaccurate when it comes to how tamoxifen works.
SERM's that effect testosterone do so by tricking the hypothalamus into thinking there are fewer sex hormones circulating in the blood. and as a result the gland secretes more GnRH hormone which makes the body produce more LH, leading to stimulation of testosterone in the testes.
See below for a good read on this subject.
Invalid Link Removed
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Call me old school....but I say Clomid for PCT/kickstarting the old testes, and nolvadex for gyno. This is how its always been, until recently when people started using nolvadex for PCT etc. And then there is torem which is something I've never even used or researched on.
 
AnabolicHolic said:
Call me old school....but I say Clomid for PCT/kickstarting the old testes, and nolvadex for gyno. This is how its always been, until recently when people started using nolvadex for PCT etc. And then there is torem which is something I've never even used or researched on.
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Well you can stick with that and probably be safe as long as you have one of those 3 SERM's you are probably good. But I can say the research really does not support the idea of tamox vs clomid for recovery yet. Both have studies supporting their use as a means of increasing testosterone levels. I would live to see a study comparing the two and it may be out there I have just not seen it yet. I doubt you will find a study supporting either for gyno prevention.
 
harbonah said:
Well you can stick with that and probably be safe as long as you have one of those 3 SERM's you are probably good. But I can say the research really does not support the idea of tamox vs clomid for recovery yet. Both have studies supporting their use as a means of increasing testosterone levels. I would live to see a study comparing the two and it may be out there I have just not seen it yet. I doubt you will find a study supporting either for gyno prevention.
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Nolva never helped me with my gyno, but then again it was pubertal gyno which is a bitch. But its supposed to have an affinity for breast tissue estrogen receptors, at least that is what is proposed.
 
I guess the general consensus is that clomid is a better non-testosterone HRT protocol then using pregnenalone and or DHEA. What I'm hearing is to use clomid along with anastrozole in mild dosage. I guess the question now is, is it okay to use this protocol long-term or not?
I will take this up with my endocrinologist at our next meeting.
Thank you all for your input.
 
w8lifter said:
I guess the general consensus is that clomid is a better non-testosterone HRT protocol then using pregnenalone and or DHEA. What I'm hearing is to use clomid along with anastrozole in mild dosage. I guess the question now is, is it okay to use this protocol long-term or not?
I will take this up with my endocrinologist at our next meeting.
Thank you all for your input.
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If you take that approach make sure you have your doctor check your Liver lipid profile regularly.
 
AnabolicHolic said:
Nolva never helped me with my gyno, but then again it was pubertal gyno which is a bitch. But its supposed to have an affinity for breast tissue estrogen receptors, at least that is what is proposed.
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While I cant seem to find any study in the use of either to prevent gyno, tamoxifen seems to be a better treatment for existing
gynecomastia then Clomiphene at least that is what these two studies would suggest. I would suggest looking into anastrozole for gynecomastia treatment instead though I believe it shows more promises even in cases of puberty induced gynecomastia and much quicker results as I think the tamoxifen studies were ran up to 6 months and may have required more time.


tamoxifen vs clomiphene
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anastrozole

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Well - I got some of my new labs back. My previous results were obtained while taking 25mg Clomid every day. These results are after I have dropped the clomid to 25mg M, W, F (last two months) and added in two tablets of PES Erase every day (one Month now). I dont have full labs yet but here goes:

The good news (note these are Canada so reference range and units may be different than those you are used to in USA)

Liver Enzymes
ALT 25 U/L range 1 - 60
GGT 16 U/L range 11-63
Lipids
Total Cholesterol 4.13 mmol/L (range 4.2 - 5.2)
Triglycerides 0.58 mmol/L (range 0.60-2.30)
HDL 1.46 mmol?L (range >=0.91)
LDL 2.40 mmol/L (range 2.2 - 3.4)

The Not-So-Good News

Endocrine

Cortisol AM 596 nmol/l (range 200 - 690)
Estradiol 172 pmol/L (range 0 - 160)
LH 11 IU/L (range 1 - 9)
Progesterone 2.7 nmol/L (range 0 - 3.0)
Total Testosterone 20.5 nmol/L (range 8.0 - 29.0)

I have no results yet for SHBG, Free Testosterone, BioAvailable Testosterone. DHEA-S, or IGF-1

SO ... the PES Erase has seemingly done virtually nothing for my estradiol - if anything my ratio of total testosterone to estradiol has gotten worse in the one month I have been taking Erase. My Testosterone numbers could have been a bit lower on this morning for a number of reasons
(1 - this test was done while fasted as required for lipids test, previous test was not
2 - I was up really early (5 AM ) and test was done at 7:30 - previous test was done 1 hr after waking or so
3 - I went jogging that morning - something I did not do before the previous test)

Lipids numbers are a bit low on Triglycerides and Total Cholesterol - which is interesting as I eat a lot of fat ( typical breakfast is 3 egss, 4 oz steak and a sweet potato, all fried in a Tablespoon of coconut oil). I think these are healthy numbers none the less - and HDL is rocking :)

Progesterone back down into normal ranges - was high when I was on clomid every day

ALT and GGT suggest liver function is good - which I really wanted to know as my SHBG has been running very high and I had heard that it could be because of liver distress. I think that these numbers would suggest I am not having a liver distress issue.

Looks like my next step is to get a better anti-estrogen than Erase. The online pharma I use has Armidex (anstrozole) but not Aromasin (exemestane) so that seems to make that decision for me.

Recommendations - 0.25 mg Armidex every two days or every three days to start ?
 
haritec said:
Well - I got some of my new labs back. My previous results were obtained while taking 25mg Clomid every day. These results are after I have dropped the clomid to 25mg M, W, F (last two months) and added in two tablets of PES Erase every day (one Month now). I dont have full labs yet but here goes:

The good news (note these are Canada so reference range and units may be different than those you are used to in USA)

Liver Enzymes
ALT 25 U/L range 1 - 60
GGT 16 U/L range 11-63
Lipids
Total Cholesterol 4.13 mmol/L (range 4.2 - 5.2)
Triglycerides 0.58 mmol/L (range 0.60-2.30)
HDL 1.46 mmol?L (range >=0.91)
LDL 2.40 mmol/L (range 2.2 - 3.4)

The Not-So-Good News

Endocrine

Cortisol AM 596 nmol/l (range 200 - 690)
Estradiol 172 pmol/L (range 0 - 160)
LH 11 IU/L (range 1 - 9)
Progesterone 2.7 nmol/L (range 0 - 3.0)
Total Testosterone 20.5 nmol/L (range 8.0 - 29.0)

I have no results yet for SHBG, Free Testosterone, BioAvailable Testosterone. DHEA-S, or IGF-1

SO ... the PES Erase has seemingly done virtually nothing for my estradiol - if anything my ratio of total testosterone to estradiol has gotten worse in the one month I have been taking Erase. My Testosterone numbers could have been a bit lower on this morning for a number of reasons
(1 - this test was done while fasted as required for lipids test, previous test was not
2 - I was up really early (5 AM ) and test was done at 7:30 - previous test was done 1 hr after waking or so
3 - I went jogging that morning - something I did not do before the previous test)

Lipids numbers are a bit low on Triglycerides and Total Cholesterol - which is interesting as I eat a lot of fat ( typical breakfast is 3 egss, 4 oz steak and a sweet potato, all fried in a Tablespoon of coconut oil). I think these are healthy numbers none the less - and HDL is rocking :)

Progesterone back down into normal ranges - was high when I was on clomid every day

ALT and GGT suggest liver function is good - which I really wanted to know as my SHBG has been running very high and I had heard that it could be because of liver distress. I think that these numbers would suggest I am not having a liver distress issue.

Looks like my next step is to get a better anti-estrogen than Erase. The online pharma I use has Armidex (anstrozole) but not Aromasin (exemestane) so that seems to make that decision for me.

Recommendations - 0.25 mg Armidex every two days or every three days to start ?
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I too had no results with ERASE. So I got Anastrozole (Aromatraz - Google it) online for very good price, no scrip needed.

General consensus seems to suggest .25 mg eod. I'm taking that amount right now with 100 mg e7d test cyp.

In about one month I will cease taking exogenous testosterone and will instead use clomid for HRT along with mild dose of anastrozole.
 
If Arimidex is out of stock, and Exemestane is available.....what are the comparable dosages as compared to arimidex? I've never used Aromasin before, so I am totally unsure on the dosing of this stuff. the pills are 25mg though. I suppose splitting one in 1/4's and taking MWF plus Sat Night would be EOD at 6.5Xmg, a pill per week.
Sucks that erase is so ineffective though.....you figure it would have some effect, especially for guys raising up into the 700-900 range on trt. Not like there is so much aromatization that it overwhelms the erase (like at >1500 with guys at 500mg+ test a week), it should be able to handle that. oh well.
 
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