Pregnenalone or dhea with no trt
- Thread starter w8lifter
- Start date
Vinnyboombots
Active member
Why not get some clomid?
Vinnyboombots
Active member
Some people go that route to raise testosterone if they're not quite ready to go on the trt for life yet.
Vinnyboombots
Active member
It is a SERM and it's very well known for raising testosterone levels
FireRescue
Active member
Depending on your age Preg & DHEA might be a nice combo for you to take but I would not expect a dramatic increase in T levels. I do think you may notice more in the way of a greater sense of well being and just felling better overall. I dont think I would be too concerend with an AI depending on your DHEA dosage. Transdermal and MLM are the only two delivery methods I would consider for either of these products.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
The better transdermal DHEA products have pregnenolone already included, along with trans-rez and an assortment of anti-estrogen ingredients. And as mentioned above they absorb way better.....but keeping estrogen in check is always a good thing anyways, so long as you don't crush it. You have to be careful using an AI in that regard. Erase or EP are probably better adjuncts to a topical DHEA products to be honest. For OTC just use OTC if you ask me.
Vinnyboombots
Active member
Clomid is very easy to get.
Vinnyboombots
Active member
It wouldn't hurt.
Vinnyboombots
Active member
Some people who were headed for life long trt were able to get there testosterone levels up with the use of clomid.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
I would go out on a limb here and say the majority of the RC and "overseas/canadian pharm" clomid is fake. If I didn't get it from my local pharmacy I wouldn't use it.......UNLESS I was illegally cycling and needed a PCT and had to roll the dice (which has happened in the past...but my source was really legit). But for someone who legit wants to get his natural test level up, no reason a doctor would not prescribe it. Might need to doctor shop to find one who knows WTF is up of course.....
And yes Clomid plus topical DHEA/Preg would be a good double whammy for raising test levels. The clomid is for a short course only though...until you get to where you want to be...then you stop taking it and hope your test levels hold steady and don't dip (It will make you a whiny bitch BTW), the DHEA you can stay on as long as you want.
harbonah
Well-known member
I can tell you for a fact that in the case of a few research companies that I have worked with in a research context this is inaccurate...Yes I had blood work done on my research animals. Also clomiphene citrate is not hard to import for research purpose's only so it would not be beneficial for a company to ruin their own reputation by putting out fake clomiphene citrate. But if your worried you can also import for yourself from a pharma source but the tabs are hard to make a bunny eat.
Also here is a good read if you wondering about the validity of clomiphene citrate as a replacement for HRT.
Invalid Link Removed
Vinnyboombots
Active member
You're shopping at the wrong RC site lol.. I know more than a few that are definitely Legit.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
If its for legit health purposes? I'm getting a script and doing it right. Period.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
so this is all 100% legit clomid? I doubt it, again....if its for my legitimate health related issue? I'm getting a script for it, not running around on the black market to find it. its hit and miss, I know plenty of people who got bunk clomid including myself on occasion.
jiggero
Well-known member
There are plenty of research sites that sell legitimate clomid.
harbonah
Well-known member
It is 100% legal to import and yes it is 100% legit I really do not know what else to tell you, just do not trust everyone but if the company has a good reputation its probably clomiphene citrate. If your worried go with pharma grade from India or do you think buying directly from their medical suppliers will give you false clomiphene also because you can order from the same companies who supply their medical community. I am not trying to bash you if you have a script great! you have it made but I would not worry about RC clomiphene its more then likely legit now if we are talking caber I would have to agree a lot of bunk stuff out there.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
so according to your logic, If I am getting on TRT....I just go get some random test from some random supplier? No need to go to the doc and get a script right? It will be legit stuff! Makes no sense to play russian roulette with your test or clomid or AI or whatever. I will just get a script for whatever I need to fix my test levels. If I'm going to run some random cycle? That is another story. If I am trying to raise my test level or get on TRT? I'm going to the doctor, getting a script, and doing it right. I don't know how better to explain this to you guys.......I'm at a loss.....
AnabolicHolic
Banned
100% legit? you vouching for every RC site? Thats what I thought..........
harbonah
Well-known member
My logic says the blood work is legit you can assume what you will I did not infer anything was for a human simply that it has consistently tested legitimate. As I stated earlier good for you that you have a script, that is not always plausible for everyone on this site so it maybe in everyone's best interest to use a reputable RC company when ordering.. I cant vouch for all sites nor would I, I know of a select few who are 100% legit and I know the owner of at least one site who has all raw powders tested you will not get any more "legit" then that. Also I take issue with your inference that I play russian roulette I am very very careful with any and all research I do. Including multiple bloods done on my research subjects during said research. This may not be how everyone does their own research but I myself have access to very good lab work via a very large company who specializes in the pharma field.
And before someone sends me a PM asking no I will not share the site who tests their chemicals this conversations is borderline enough as it is.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
All I'm going to say is that its piss poor advice to recommend to a guy looking to raise his endogenous test levels that he use RC sites for his clomid. How if its bunk clomid? Then his levels don't raise? And he says "oh OK I tried clomid and it didn't work...so I'll just get on TRT (or whatever protocol)". Maybe if he used US pharmacy grade Clomid prescribed by a doctor, he would have adjusted his test levels to where he wanted to be, and lived happily ever after w/o needing TRT. Raising your endogenous test and/or getting on TRT is serious business, and should be done in the doctors office. I think many of you guys commenting in here are either A) are not on TRT or B) are well under the age of 40 or C) Have never diagnosed with low testosterone (other than post cycle). This being the reason for the bad advice I see in here. And to make things worse, You state you have a legit blood tested site you order from....but you are not going to tell this guy where this site is....leaving him to his own devices to choose an RC site that MIGHT have legit clomid.
harbonah
Well-known member
It is breaking the rules so no I won't share...yes I have done my own research as should he and you... Yes I have TRT and my own script for the AI that goes with that....stamping something with a magic FDA APPROVED OR USA made does not make it real. The lab testing that is used is all that matters its simple science either the chemical is real or false or varying degrees of impurities and or dosing...
Now ill really scare you most of the chemicals used in these FDA drugs are manufactured in another country and omg...imported here to the companies.. I am speaking directly about one of the largest drug companies in the world and doing so from inside knowledge....
Now since you seem to think only things with a script are "legitimate" why don't you tell me about where you are getting these hormones for your "random cycles" ? How are you sure the company "otc" or UGL are testing each batch why would you take it if not...if you want to nitpic posts I can do the same with yours. Although I abhorred these random Ethug posts..
I'm assuming you ran into a research scam in the past sure they do happen, and that's why I always say priority one is blood work!!! Do you know that most would recover with out A SERM...but I digress from my main points.....
vidapreta
Well-known member
I would estimate that 95% of the people on this website get there serm/ai from a research website and are very happy. You obviously don't have the knowledge to find a reputable source.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
You people are just not comprehending my post
. .this has zero to do with "finding a reputable source" lmfao and everything to do with taking proper precautions in regards to your health by using a doctors supervision.... But you go boys, you badass black market cowboys! I'll continue to use the doctors office for matters pertaining to my hormone levels or cardiovascular etc. fools.
harbonah
Well-known member
I will try logic one last time and try to ignore your weak attempt at an insult. The OP said "If I'm not able to get TRT" do you think going to a doctor to get clomid is an option based on that statement... Now as to your claim that your post's had nothing to do with finding a reputable source well you said...."I would go out on a limb here and say the majority of the RC and "overseas/canadian pharm" clomid is fake. If I didn't get it from my local pharmacy I wouldn't use it.......UNLESS I was illegally cycling and needed a PCT and had to roll the dice (which has happened in the past...but my source was really legit). But for someone who legit wants to get his natural test level up, no reason a doctor would not prescribe it." Which is the exact opposite of this current post.. who is talking about black market? I have yet to tell anyone to go to the black market to get anything research is not black market there is a world of difference between the two if you cant comprehend that then there is no hope for you. Also there are plenty of reasons a doctor would not prescribe Clomiphene to a male as that is an off label use which can get a doctor in hot water if they have a history of doing things like that too often. If you do not understand the scientific or medical reasons for something you might be better served and of more use to the community by asking instead of pretending you know something about a subject you have little to no knowledge of..you seem to be threatened by any challenge to your claims in my experience that generally speaks to a lack of research and or knowledge about subject especially when one resorts to insults..
If you are on other boards you will see about 6 months back they tested many chemicals from many different research sites they did not test SERM's from said sites in general because of how cheap and easy to obtain they are its assumed even the scamming RC sites get legitimate SERM's because well they are easy to get and import as I have said many times.....
AnabolicHolic
Banned
My God you go off on tangents....WTF? I've noticed this before, but man you have some serious psychological issues to deal with other than giving bad advice in anti-aging forum. Mental case.
OK back to the actual subject at hand.....This is a forum for ADULTS who have issues pertaining to their (low) test levels. People like us use DOCTORS who give us PRESCRIPTIONS for REAL HEALTH RELATED ISSUES. Still don't understand? Let me elaborate further for you, because I know this will not compute since the previous posts did not.....The majority of misguided posters in here fall into the following category, 18-34 PH cyclers who are not on TRT, and who use things such as RC clomid for their PH "PCT". These type posters should not be advising people who are on TRT or are deciding on TRT (or clomid or natural routes etc). Other people with much more experience in the real world of doctor supervised 'adults only' HRT protocols and the related ancilleries are the only ones who should respond (not saying I am one of these, only that apparently I know more good advice than you people in this regard). I know everything I need to know about supplements, anabolics, training etc....but I can learn new things in here. That being said, you lot could serve to shut up and keep your PH cycling opinions/advice (and bad ones at that) to yourself, and maybe learn a few things in here. As opposed to (pretending) being know-it-alls in the area of anti-aging and/or HRT. PH cycles and proper doctor supervised TRT are not the same topic, that is why there is an anabolics and supplement section.....which is where this type advice belongs.
OK back to the actual subject at hand.....This is a forum for ADULTS who have issues pertaining to their (low) test levels. People like us use DOCTORS who give us PRESCRIPTIONS for REAL HEALTH RELATED ISSUES. Still don't understand? Let me elaborate further for you, because I know this will not compute since the previous posts did not.....The majority of misguided posters in here fall into the following category, 18-34 PH cyclers who are not on TRT, and who use things such as RC clomid for their PH "PCT". These type posters should not be advising people who are on TRT or are deciding on TRT (or clomid or natural routes etc). Other people with much more experience in the real world of doctor supervised 'adults only' HRT protocols and the related ancilleries are the only ones who should respond (not saying I am one of these, only that apparently I know more good advice than you people in this regard). I know everything I need to know about supplements, anabolics, training etc....but I can learn new things in here. That being said, you lot could serve to shut up and keep your PH cycling opinions/advice (and bad ones at that) to yourself, and maybe learn a few things in here. As opposed to (pretending) being know-it-alls in the area of anti-aging and/or HRT. PH cycles and proper doctor supervised TRT are not the same topic, that is why there is an anabolics and supplement section.....which is where this type advice belongs.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
Oh and genius......RC is the same thing as "black market" sweetheart 
lol you told the guy to get his clomid w/o a script.....which = "black market" since its not approved for OTC use in the USA. And that is where the RC's manufacture and ship from. I know, I know....you don't go RC, you get it from canada or europe and its "legal" to import it 
I already know where your maniacal mind is going.....
lol you told the guy to get his clomid w/o a script.....which = "black market" since its not approved for OTC use in the USA. And that is where the RC's manufacture and ship from. I know, I know....you don't go RC, you get it from canada or europe and its "legal" to import it I already know where your maniacal mind is going.....
harbonah
Well-known member
You fail at English, logic, and science congratulations its a trifecta of stupid.Oh and genius......RC is the same thing as "black market" sweetheart
black mar·ket
Noun
An illegal traffic or trade in officially controlled or scarce commodities.
- Given research chemicals are sold legally for research they are not....Illegal, not to mention the fact I did point out importing pharma grade is also an option its the same damn thing as your precious Doctors prescription.... If the OP does not have the option of TRT how the hell do you think he is going to now go to a doctor because what you claim he should? You just claimed to have a script now your saying your "people with much more experience in the real world of doctor supervised 'adults only' HRT protocols and the related ancilleries are the only ones who should respond (not saying I am one of these" Which is it you either know more from experience or you do not....Someone is claiming knowledge they don't have I am guessing its you... I find it funny you never addressed a single point like the off label use of clomiphene....
AnabolicHolic
Banned
Sweetie,
A) I never said "I am on clomid I have a script". Go find me that direct quote please, thank you. I am on TRT, I never bothered to try clomid with a doctor due to my age, I just got on TRT. My ADVICE to OP is that HE GETS A SCRIPT...not me (reading comprehension, try it some day). Thanks for being wrong again though.
B) RC clomid is ILLEGAL TO USE FOR PERSONAL USE in the USA. Thanks again for coming on that one. Loopholes do not equate to legality. uh-oh for you.
C) "Doctor shopping" till you get the right one. Look up and define that term for me too....like you did black market when I was correct then as well.
D) I can do this all day....you are arguing from a flawed and illogical position that can be picked apart with ease.
FireRescue
Active member
I didn't read all the post and personal attacks but I just want to agree that research companies products are not intended for human use or consumption. Buying research companies products for human use or consumption is illegal and could be synomous with black market trade IMO
However, I'm sure everyone on this forum is using RC products on their lab rats for legimate testing purposes.
However, I'm sure everyone on this forum is using RC products on their lab rats for legimate testing purposes.
harbonah
Well-known member
And this "However, I'm sure everyone on this forum is using RC products on their lab rats for legitimate testing purposes." is what makes them legal and not black market its very basic.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
Leave the lame excuses at the door buddy. Just face it, I was correct on all my points....and you were wrong. Be a man and admit it and get on with your day. Oh, you are one of those who are not capable of that type of humility, and are also incapable of acting like a real man. my bad.
harbonah
Well-known member
Ok Corky calm down life goes on...
A) Simply put you implied you get a script for what ever you would take and its so simple to do...you also implied how simple it is go get clomid for TRT which once again is off label use...how you fail to comprehend that is beyond amazing.
B) "Thanks again for coming on that one." is this even English get a book..But yes a loop hole allows them to operate legally also small quantities are allowed for import for personal use. How is this so hard to understand for you?
C) The OP claimed he cant get TRT im guessing he does not have the funds to doctor shop so why keep driving a pointless point..Do you post things just so you can read it?
D)Yes, it appears you can make baseless attempts at arguing all day. If my points are so flawed why do you fail to ever address any points other then frivolous rants about nonsense you don't understand at all.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
And there were no "personal attacks" on my part UNTIL such time as there were random wise-ass remarks sent in my direction....then two can play at that game. Also, when someone refuses to admit they are wrong (when its blatantly obvious they are), that is not considered "Ethuggery" when you go about setting that person straight. There were no "threats" or even much name calling (at least until the wise-ass remarks began). Sweetheart is after all a term of endearment (and I may have felt as if I was talking to a teenage girl.....so sue me)
AnabolicHolic
Banned
WOW!!! your first legitimate comment all day! CONGRATULATIONS SIR! You "got me" on that one, I should not be addressing an illogical maniac making false claims and giving bad advice...oh wait, I'm "one of those" who has to call out wrong information...damn, character flaw I guess? Well at least it helps quell the spread of misinformation. I do have to go color my grays though actually, I'm 41 and don't want my grays to give me away. I did get a workout in while I replied to this thread though during my rest periods. I can multitask with the best of them.
harbonah
Well-known member
Yes, I must have started the personal attacks by trying to stick to logic...
AnabolicHolic
Banned
You most certainly did not stick to logic, that is one thing I am certain of. All your POV's were completely illogical I assure you. But you always get all pissy with your rants, which equates to being a smart ass. How many times have you had two and three page arguments in anabolics and over here in this forum? Please don't lie, I can use search and pull them up. You like to argue for no reason, and you like to "always be right" as if everything you say is gospel. As I said, your argument might work over in anabolics to a certain extent....but anti-aging usually always includes a doctor or an anti-aging clinic "doctor" plus a script.
harbonah
Well-known member
Yeah you must have gotten me there, the information I gave was so wrong...when I oh wait I am not the one claiming Clomid is easy to get from a MD...or that the OP has unlimited funds to Doctor shop so why wouldn't he do exactly as you say...I myself use an Endo but I am guessing you don't need one since "I know everything I need to know about supplements, anabolics, training etc.." I get it your a know it all...
harbonah
Well-known member
LOL have fun kid I honestly don't care enough about you to bother..even if I am sure it would be simple to pull up a bunch of random BS posts by you.
AnabolicHolic
Banned
I just use my GP and he will give me whatever I tell him I need....if not then i'll get a referral to and endo and tell him what I need. Yes I do know more about this stuff than my doctor and probably most endo's in my area, sad but true. I do need them to write the script though...unfortunately. If the OP does not have enough funds to see a doctor and get a script, or get on TRT (test is pretty cheap at the pharmacy....the gels are ultra expensive), well he probably doesn't have the funds to play around with RC clomid and the before and after blood tests right? the bloods are the most expensive part of the whole TRT/Clomid deal actually....doctors visits are expensive but not that much of a financial burden. Then you have a 6 month script for test or a script for clomid. You can get generics which will probably cost less than the damn RC clomid......
harbonah
Well-known member
You know what I can respect that response it was logical and conscious. And I agree blood work can run up a cost its about $100 a pop at local labs near me other then ones I have people for, but I have kind of an inside deal there so its not really fair to compare. Also pharma clomid last time I imported cost about $50 for a 6 month supply. So it does not have to cost much vs doc visit and script cost.
RC might not always be the best option but its sometimes the only option someone has can we agree on that?
AnabolicHolic
Banned
Right, all you have is the doctors visit cost. RC clomid cost vs. generic clomid cost is comparable.....bloods are expensive of course, and you need at least two, whether going about it on your own or under a doctors supervision....but yes, if you can't find a doctor that will prescribe clomid then you would need to go the RC or overseas pharma route. Personally? for a clomid run that will dictate the fate of my endogenous test levels, and if I get on TRT or just stay natural, I just could not play russian roulette with RC's. I gotta know that its from the pharmacy and I used legit stuff. And yes, there are tons of fake Rx making their way into our US pharmacy's as you alluded too (It's getting worse by the month)....but I doubt its anywhere near as prevalent as underdosed or mislabeled or just plain bunk RC clomid. I don't trust these places for the most part, that is just me. Esp the liquid companies, the capsule places I have had more success with (for caber and cialis etc).....again just my opinion.
vidapreta
Well-known member
What's with the name calling?
AnabolicHolic
Banned
Further proof I am dealing with children, this clown ^^^ takes the time to neg rep me three times...which means he had to go around and positive a few dozen people in the meanwhile hahahaha. Act like a preteen girl on the internet much? People like this ruin this type of sub-forum, he has absoulutely no knowledge of TRT or anti-aging...yet he must make stupid comments and then run around like its facebook leaving nasty comments when called out on it! WOW! Its not even worth helping people out and/or correcting misinformation.....
People like this ruin this type of sub-forum, he has absoulutely no knowledge of TRT or anti-aging...yet he must make stupid comments and then run around like its facebook leaving nasty comments when called out on it! WOW! Its not even worth helping people out and/or correcting misinformation.....haritec
New member
Well this thread kinda got hijacked by AnabolicHolic and his rant against research meds and you must see a TRT doctor. Most TRT doctors wont even try chlomid - at least not in Canada - it is an off-label application of the drug to raise male Testosterone. It is easily and inexpensively available via mail order though it did take me a couple of tries to find a reliable offshore pharma that actually delivered - and it does require some experimentation to get to the right dose rates but can be effective in raising testosterone even in older men ( Anabolic seemed to imply that since he was older there was no point trying). This is a copy of a post I have in another place on this forum. For information purposes only because harbonah rightly brought up Chlomid as an option to raise testosterone that may be more effective than DHEA/Pregnelone.
This is a long post - if you want the summary:
Look into Chlomid - seriously. If your balls and pituatary are still capable of working properly - Chlomid can dramatically raise testosterone levels with minimal side effects if the dose rate is kept low. Research seems to indicate it is safe for long term use at low dose rates.
I am a 53 yr old male - who had simlar problems. Low testosterone - did the full gamet of testing- no observable problems with LH FSH thyroid etc. I could write for hours about this - but spent about a year and a half trying many of the products sold on fitness websites to increase test (Tribulus, longjack, DAA, Fenugreek, Forskoli etc) with no substantial effect. I can post labs over several years if one is interested.
In late December 2012, I recieved some generic chlomid from an online pharmacy - the first two I tried never delivered - the third one did and has subsequently been very reliable. Generic Chlomid is cheaper to take than any of the supplements listed above. In just six weeks, my total, free and bioavailable testosterone went up by over 70 %, taking 25 mg chlomid every other day.
Invalid Link Removed
Here were my thoughts on the results ( copying this from another bulletin board I posted on)
1) Pituitary seems to be working as the chlomid drove up LH and FH
2) Balls seem to be working as Testosterone and Free Testosterone went up 70 %
3) Estrogen getting pretty high
4) Thyroid is OK - actually getting better as tests proceed (added iodized salt back into diet and taking thyroid glandular)
5) Sudden sharp drop in AM cortisol is disconcerting - wonder if it was side effect of chlomid
I increased the dose of chlomid to 25 mg every day - and retested in April. HEre is what I posted on other log. Big thing is my Testosterone was up to top of reference range and Bio-available had increased dramatically.
Just a brief update - been on Chlomid for over three months now. Somethings going very well - others need a bit of work yet. I have been avoiding adding an anti-aromatase but looks like I may not be able to get around it. Recent labs
Cortisol 688 (range 200- 690 nmol/L)
Way better than last test result - may have been an anomaly as is consistent with previous test from December.
Total Testosterone 28.3 (range 8.0 - 29.0 nmol/L) Well can't complain
Estradiol 184 (range 0 - 160 pmol/L ) This one I need to work on yet
Progesterone 3.7 (range 0 - 3.0 nmol/L)
Free Testosterone 451 (range 175 - 700 pmol/L) More than double the numbers I used to get
SHBG 60 (range 10 - 55 nmol/L) would love to see this down - but maybe because of high estrogen so anti-aromatase?
DHEA-S 8.4 (range 2.2 - 13.0 umol/L)
BioAvail Testosterone 9.2 (range 4.0 to 16.0) NICE- was below reference range in October
Both Bio Avail and Free Testosterone will of course improve if I can get SHBG down.
Here is a major problem - first time ever tested for Vit D and I take about 3000 IUs daily
Vitamin D 80.5 (range 80 - 200)
Maybe I am a poor absorber - have added a second source (pills in the morning - liquid Vit D in evening ) and taking 6-7000 IU and am going to see how it goes.
All in all - I am very pleased with being on Chlomid. I upped my dose in February from 25 mg EOD to 25 mg daily. I am going to cut back to 25 EOD again and see where I stabilize - figuring the lower dose rate will reduce side effects. Going to try some natural anti-aromatase first before trying other approaches.
I feel better - am more positive, good morning wood, can concentrate better and am seeing some body recomposition that is favorable. So far - the experiment for me has been a success - your mileage may vary. I figure for a 53 yr old guy to get his total T up to 800 with just a SERM is pretty good results.
The high estrogen numbers and fact I had hit the top of scale on Total T made me cut back the chlomid again - so since that time I have been taking 25 mg on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. I have added in 2 pills daily of PES Erase to try to lower estrogen for the last 3-4 weeks. I feel great and have the best morning erections I have had for years - which is usually a good sign that testosterone and estrogen are in balance. I am going to see my doctor and get more bloodwork done in about 10 days.
There are a number of good studies online about Chlomid and long term use in Men for low testosterone - learn to use pubmed is well worth it. Anyways - here is info from one - Title says it all.
Clomiphene citrate is safe and effective for long-term management of hypogonadism.
Moskovic DJ, Katz DJ, Akhavan A, Park K, Mulhall JP.
Source
Sexual & Reproductive Medicine Program, Urology Service, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY, USA.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To assess the efficacy and safety of long-term clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in symptomatic patients with hypogonadism (HG).
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
Serum T, oestradiol and luteinizing hormone (LH) were measured in patients who were treated with CC for over 12 months. Additionally, bone densitometry (BD) results were collected for all patients. Demographic, comorbidity, treatment and Androgen Deficiency in Aging Men (ADAM) score data were also recorded. Comparison was made between baseline and post-treatment variables, and multivariable analysis was conducted to define predictors of successful response to CC. The main outcome measures were predictors of response and long-term results with long-term CC therapy in hypogonadal patients.
RESULTS:
The 46 patients (mean age 44 years) had baseline serum testosterone (T) levels of 228 ng/dL. Follow-up T levels were 612 ng/dL at 1 year, 562 ng/dL at 2 years, and 582 ng/dL at 3 years (P < 0.001). Mean femoral neck and lumbar spine BD scores improved significantly. ADAM scores (and responses) fell from a baseline of 7 to a nadir of 3 after 1 year. No adverse events were reported by any patients.
CONCLUSIONS:
Clomiphene citrate is an effective long-term therapy for HG in appropriate patients. The drug raises T levels substantially in addition to improving other manifestations of HG such as osteopenia/osteoporosis and ADAM symptoms.
This is a long post - if you want the summary:
Look into Chlomid - seriously. If your balls and pituatary are still capable of working properly - Chlomid can dramatically raise testosterone levels with minimal side effects if the dose rate is kept low. Research seems to indicate it is safe for long term use at low dose rates.
I am a 53 yr old male - who had simlar problems. Low testosterone - did the full gamet of testing- no observable problems with LH FSH thyroid etc. I could write for hours about this - but spent about a year and a half trying many of the products sold on fitness websites to increase test (Tribulus, longjack, DAA, Fenugreek, Forskoli etc) with no substantial effect. I can post labs over several years if one is interested.
In late December 2012, I recieved some generic chlomid from an online pharmacy - the first two I tried never delivered - the third one did and has subsequently been very reliable. Generic Chlomid is cheaper to take than any of the supplements listed above. In just six weeks, my total, free and bioavailable testosterone went up by over 70 %, taking 25 mg chlomid every other day.
Invalid Link Removed
Here were my thoughts on the results ( copying this from another bulletin board I posted on)
1) Pituitary seems to be working as the chlomid drove up LH and FH
2) Balls seem to be working as Testosterone and Free Testosterone went up 70 %
3) Estrogen getting pretty high
4) Thyroid is OK - actually getting better as tests proceed (added iodized salt back into diet and taking thyroid glandular)
5) Sudden sharp drop in AM cortisol is disconcerting - wonder if it was side effect of chlomid
I increased the dose of chlomid to 25 mg every day - and retested in April. HEre is what I posted on other log. Big thing is my Testosterone was up to top of reference range and Bio-available had increased dramatically.
Just a brief update - been on Chlomid for over three months now. Somethings going very well - others need a bit of work yet. I have been avoiding adding an anti-aromatase but looks like I may not be able to get around it. Recent labs
Cortisol 688 (range 200- 690 nmol/L)
Way better than last test result - may have been an anomaly as is consistent with previous test from December.
Total Testosterone 28.3 (range 8.0 - 29.0 nmol/L) Well can't complain
Estradiol 184 (range 0 - 160 pmol/L ) This one I need to work on yet
Progesterone 3.7 (range 0 - 3.0 nmol/L)
Free Testosterone 451 (range 175 - 700 pmol/L) More than double the numbers I used to get
SHBG 60 (range 10 - 55 nmol/L) would love to see this down - but maybe because of high estrogen so anti-aromatase?
DHEA-S 8.4 (range 2.2 - 13.0 umol/L)
BioAvail Testosterone 9.2 (range 4.0 to 16.0) NICE- was below reference range in October
Both Bio Avail and Free Testosterone will of course improve if I can get SHBG down.
Here is a major problem - first time ever tested for Vit D and I take about 3000 IUs daily
Vitamin D 80.5 (range 80 - 200)
Maybe I am a poor absorber - have added a second source (pills in the morning - liquid Vit D in evening ) and taking 6-7000 IU and am going to see how it goes.
All in all - I am very pleased with being on Chlomid. I upped my dose in February from 25 mg EOD to 25 mg daily. I am going to cut back to 25 EOD again and see where I stabilize - figuring the lower dose rate will reduce side effects. Going to try some natural anti-aromatase first before trying other approaches.
I feel better - am more positive, good morning wood, can concentrate better and am seeing some body recomposition that is favorable. So far - the experiment for me has been a success - your mileage may vary. I figure for a 53 yr old guy to get his total T up to 800 with just a SERM is pretty good results.
The high estrogen numbers and fact I had hit the top of scale on Total T made me cut back the chlomid again - so since that time I have been taking 25 mg on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. I have added in 2 pills daily of PES Erase to try to lower estrogen for the last 3-4 weeks. I feel great and have the best morning erections I have had for years - which is usually a good sign that testosterone and estrogen are in balance. I am going to see my doctor and get more bloodwork done in about 10 days.
There are a number of good studies online about Chlomid and long term use in Men for low testosterone - learn to use pubmed is well worth it. Anyways - here is info from one - Title says it all.
Clomiphene citrate is safe and effective for long-term management of hypogonadism.
Moskovic DJ, Katz DJ, Akhavan A, Park K, Mulhall JP.
Source
Sexual & Reproductive Medicine Program, Urology Service, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY, USA.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To assess the efficacy and safety of long-term clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in symptomatic patients with hypogonadism (HG).
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
Serum T, oestradiol and luteinizing hormone (LH) were measured in patients who were treated with CC for over 12 months. Additionally, bone densitometry (BD) results were collected for all patients. Demographic, comorbidity, treatment and Androgen Deficiency in Aging Men (ADAM) score data were also recorded. Comparison was made between baseline and post-treatment variables, and multivariable analysis was conducted to define predictors of successful response to CC. The main outcome measures were predictors of response and long-term results with long-term CC therapy in hypogonadal patients.
RESULTS:
The 46 patients (mean age 44 years) had baseline serum testosterone (T) levels of 228 ng/dL. Follow-up T levels were 612 ng/dL at 1 year, 562 ng/dL at 2 years, and 582 ng/dL at 3 years (P < 0.001). Mean femoral neck and lumbar spine BD scores improved significantly. ADAM scores (and responses) fell from a baseline of 7 to a nadir of 3 after 1 year. No adverse events were reported by any patients.
CONCLUSIONS:
Clomiphene citrate is an effective long-term therapy for HG in appropriate patients. The drug raises T levels substantially in addition to improving other manifestations of HG such as osteopenia/osteoporosis and ADAM symptoms.
Bigchourico
Well-known member
haritec good info, I wanna go buy some clomid now!!
Bigchourico
Well-known member
And I've got just the right research place to buy it from!! LOL
AnabolicHolic
Banned
I won't quote that LOOOOOOOOOOONG winded post....but you know who you are........
Firstly, you validated my postings in this thread by saying that you had a hit or miss experience even ORDERING and RECEIVING the "chlomid"...never mind the fact you just as well as could have actually received it and got bunk stuff. Thanks.
Secondly, It's my personal decision (opinion) to use doctor prescribed HRT/TRT (or "chlomid" therapy). Don't hate bro as well its (again) my choice to just jump on TRT if I feel my age is great enough that most of us at that age won't respond to clomid (I'll stop with the h now). And as a little FYI, clomid ED for life essentially (which seems to be what you are advocating here being on 3 months and tinkering with future dosing) would make 99% of men into whiny bitches 24/7 365 and probably make many suicidal (not even joking), this not taking into consideration the other sides. Sorry you can't dictate what I do or what I post....if you don't like it, I guess its tough titties for you. thanks again.
This is sad that there are so many people in here with shyt attitudes, and so many people with no knowledge about anything to do with this forum giving advice. The one place you figure to not find random numbskulls giving advice would be in an anti-aging forum.....the trolls have filtered into this forum as well. Why anybody not on TRT or any anti-aging protocol feels the need to bring their 20 something year old azz in here and "give advice" is beyond me. I never even though to do that in my 20's......
Firstly, you validated my postings in this thread by saying that you had a hit or miss experience even ORDERING and RECEIVING the "chlomid"...never mind the fact you just as well as could have actually received it and got bunk stuff. Thanks.
Secondly, It's my personal decision (opinion) to use doctor prescribed HRT/TRT (or "chlomid" therapy). Don't hate bro
as well its (again) my choice to just jump on TRT if I feel my age is great enough that most of us at that age won't respond to clomid (I'll stop with the h now). And as a little FYI, clomid ED for life essentially (which seems to be what you are advocating here being on 3 months and tinkering with future dosing) would make 99% of men into whiny bitches 24/7 365 and probably make many suicidal (not even joking), this not taking into consideration the other sides. Sorry you can't dictate what I do or what I post....if you don't like it, I guess its tough titties for you. thanks again.This is sad that there are so many people in here with shyt attitudes, and so many people with no knowledge about anything to do with this forum giving advice. The one place you figure to not find random numbskulls giving advice would be in an anti-aging forum.....the trolls have filtered into this forum as well. Why anybody not on TRT or any anti-aging protocol feels the need to bring their 20 something year old azz in here and "give advice" is beyond me. I never even though to do that in my 20's......
Bigchourico
Well-known member
Vida's right. You do like to call people names.:nono: