powerfull vs Bulk 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzo

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strategicmove said:
Agree completely. The entire discussion was sparked off by Patrick Arnold's statement that L-Dopa had no anabolic properties, direct or indirect, and that plant sterols were basically useless in a general sense.
Most of the subsequent discussion has centered on subjective interpretations of what he actually might have wanted to say. I am sure he would find time to clarify his thoughts here. And do that better than anyone else. That would help cut a lot of speculation. And advance our objective knowledge a tad.
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i don't want to completely trash L-dopa, it has the potential to benefit certain people for a short time at least.

but its really pretty tame stuff
 
pistonpump said:
let PA back his own statements, i doubt he needs your help.

HGH and testosterone do not build muscle? okay, well it doesnt but it sure does help and play a big part in whether muscle gets built and how much.....so if this product does increase GH production over baseline then that would mean it would help to build muscle among other benefiets, it wouldnt do it directly but indirectly but why would it matter if its overall outcome is aided muscle benefiets?
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it does not raise GH or testosterone high enough or for a long enough time to make any discernable difference in your physique

this is the conclusion i have come to based on my experience and knowledge. And I came to this conclusion long before USP labs ever existed.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
great marketing can go a long way to generate a strong placebo response. i remember reading about this stuff called hot stuff back in 89-90. it was advertised in more obscure bodybuilding publications first and then got more mainstream over time. it swore to be a steroid equivalent and had everything but the kitchen sink in there. i sent away for it and got it in the mail and opened it up and it was like a unique treasure with its odd orange looking label. i tasted its strange banana flavor and thought to myself that i was drinking a truly unique concoction. i could swear i felt the testosterone running through my veins and i worked out harder and ate better then i could in a long time. i made great progress and swore up and down that hot stuff was amazing stuff

later i found out it was complete BS

the same thing happened to me about a year or two later with the first metrx, but to a lesser extent
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Hot Stuff :lol:

I use to take that as well. Wasn't a good idea before squats though :dump:
 
pistonpump said:
okay i dont understand. if something increases test and or gh that doesnt equate to more help with muscle building?:think: why supplement either then? please explain im confused by what youre saying.
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lots of things raise gh. amino acids, blood pressure medicine, fasting etc. etc.

these things don't equate into any muscle growth however.

as far as testosterone goes i did a literature search on l-dopa and testosterone levels and really could not find any specific data at all. I suppose the possibility exists that it could raise it in a very modest fashion like less than 50% and even that will probably only be transient. you are not gonna notice anything really from that
 
pistonpump said:
why dont you test it PA?
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i really hope that i don't have to get to that point. an answer would be so much more convenient

and even if i do test it, and come to the conclusion that its the same do you think that is going to end this debate at all?

no, it will only make the debate more intense and aggravating
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i really hope that i don't have to get to that point. an answer would be so much more convenient

and even if i do test it, and come to the conclusion that its the same do you think that is going to end this debate at all?

no, it will only make the debate more intense and aggravating
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an answer would be nice.

if it is the same maybe people the people that know this wont buy it thinking its something else. I have three bottles i bought for like $10 each so im gonna use it regardless. I did notice a libido boost but that could just be dopamine increase??..
 
pistonpump said:
an answer would be nice.

if it is the same maybe people the people that know this wont buy it thinking its something else. I have three bottles i bought for like $10 each so im gonna use it regardless. I did notice a libido boost but that could just be dopamine increase??..
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libido increase is a listed side effect of l-dopa

yeah it has something to do with dopamine

cabergoline is a much safer dopaminergic agent that purportedly can raise testosterone and increase libido. you can get that through research chem houses. but once again, don't expect any noticeable anabolic effects
 
Patrick Arnold said:
libido increase is a listed side effect of l-dopa

yeah it has something to do with dopamine

cabergoline is a much safer dopaminergic agent that purportedly can raise testosterone and increase libido. you can get that through research chem houses. but once again, don't expect any noticeable anabolic effects
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I raised the same issue awhile back comparing bromocriptine vs's powerfull.......anyhow it got shot down.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i really hope that i don't have to get to that point. an answer would be so much more convenient

and even if i do test it, and come to the conclusion that its the same do you think that is going to end this debate at all?

no, it will only make the debate more intense and aggravating
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I'm debating to release the test on your 50% cissus and with your permission, I will.

I will try to be civil but PA makes if real hard.

1-carboxy is our name for our extraction of L-dopa that contains natural decarboxlase inhibitors. Pat are you the only one with access to a lab and chemists? We are working directly with Universities and Biotech firms in India lead by men with Doctorates. It's cool that you sport a BA in chemistry and have alot of on the job experience. But Please stop feeding your ego as the smartest man in the indusrty it's becoming repulsive.

I'm begining to questions your High and mighty approach to degrading other companies products as worthless.

ErgoPharm
"It doesn't work unless Ergo Makes it"
 
USPLabs said:
I'm debating to release the test on your 50% cissus and with your permission, I will.

I will try to be civil but PA makes if real hard.

1-carboxy is our name for our extraction of L-dopa that contains natural decarboxlase inhibitors. Pat are you the only one with access to a lab and chemists? We are working directly with Universities and Biotech firms in India lead by men with Doctorates. It's cool that you sport a BA in chemistry and have alot of on the job experience. But Please stop feeding your ego as the smartest man in the indusrty it's becoming repulsive.

I'm begining to questions your High and mighty approach to degrading other companies products as worthless.

ErgoPharm
"It doesn't work unless Ergo Makes it"
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nice response :clap2:
 
Patrick Arnold said:
sounds like a real ass backwards way to analyze a product. but then again you don't have a lab like i do
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Well, yes Pat, if I had a lab I'm sure I could come up with some more accurate testing methods than this...****! :lol:

Edit: Wow, you can't say dic*? What is this, ****ing church?

In my kitchen lab, I have access to a glucometer, and...a toaster. I'm already reasonably certain that neither of these compounds can make toast, so I'm going to go with the glucose testing.

As for USP's comment...interesting. It certainly feels different than L-Dopa + a Decarboxylase inhibitor, which I've used many times.

And I agree with Patrick on this one, I'd be surprised if L-Dopa + a Decarboxylase inhibitor did much for building muscle. I haven't noticed anything in the past from that combo. Transient spikes in GH/Test certainly don't automatically equate to more muscle/less fat...there's so much more to it than that.

But, I've never considered taking it for that purpose. I use it for the central dopamine effects on motivation/drive/focus/libido, etc. I bought the 1-Carboxy for the above purposes + enhanced sleep efficiency, which it seems to be doing a great job of. And, at $18 for 100g, its not exactly breaking the bank.

It seems to me like this product might be mis-marketed...but I'm sure there's more money to be made in selling to people with hopes of building muscle and losing body fat than there is selling the idea of increased motivation and sleep efficiency.
 
USPLabs said:
I'm debating to release the test on your 50% cissus and with your permission, I will.

I will try to be civil but PA makes if real hard.

1-carboxy is our name for our extraction of L-dopa that contains natural decarboxlase inhibitors. Pat are you the only one with access to a lab and chemists? We are working directly with Universities and Biotech firms in India lead by men with Doctorates. It's cool that you sport a BA in chemistry and have alot of on the job experience. But Please stop feeding your ego as the smartest man in the indusrty it's becoming repulsive.

I'm begining to questions your High and mighty approach to degrading other companies products as worthless.

ErgoPharm
"It doesn't work unless Ergo Makes it"
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Is this not in your write up

"But, we totally skipped the L-Dopa part and discovered a brand new compound that’s closely related and is readily available for the body to use"


so at first it was a brand new compound. then i called your ass on it so you switched your story to some crazy extraction technique with natural decarboxylase inhibitors.

well what are these natural decarboxylase inhibitors?

who are these universities and biotech firms in india.

i cannot believe that people here buy your BS. but they do apparently
 
This thread is getting rather explosive. This surely was not originally intended.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
Is this not in your write up

"But, we totally skipped the L-Dopa part and discovered a brand new compound that’s closely related and is readily available for the body to use"


so at first it was a brand new compound. then i called your ass on it so you switched your story to some crazy extraction technique with natural decarboxylase inhibitors.

well what are these natural decarboxylase inhibitors?

who are these universities and biotech firms in india.

i cannot believe that people here buy your BS. but they do apparently
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they also claim:

"this amazing compound also increased Testosterone levels similar to 100mg of exogenous testosterone!"
 
easymac said:
they also claim:

"this amazing compound also increased Testosterone levels similar to 100mg of exogenous testosterone!"
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People on TRT take over twice that amount. I think it's just a fancy way of saying "it will increase your testosterone levels by 50%". If that would be more quantifiable for ya.
 
USPLabs said:
I'm begining to questions your High and mighty approach to degrading other companies products as worthless.

ErgoPharm
"It doesn't work unless Ergo Makes it"
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these statements completely miss the point. rarely do my criticisms of competitors have anything to do with a product "per se". in fact, often the product is something i think is useful and i will say so in my posts alot of times

examples:

epistane
6-bromo
Jungle Warfare (6-dehydromethyltest)


with all three products (which have been involved in recent debates of mine) i have gone on the record as saying they are useful ingredients that apparently have ergogenic benefits.

the REAL POINT of my criticisms jacob is false and misleading claims. that is where i attack competitors, and i attack because it is unfair business practice to lie like that. For years i have taken the high ground in my advertisements and marketing and maintained a very modest and honest approach. I hate watching others make all this money the easy way, the way its always been done in this industry. I hate it so much i wanna puke every time i open up a mag or see some disgusting hype filled thread
 
thesinner said:
People on TRT take over twice that amount. I think it's just a fancy way of saying "it will increase your testosterone levels by 50%". If that would be more quantifiable for ya.
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its a completely useless statement because there is no timeline associated with 100mg

do they mean 100mg taken in one day versus l-dopa taken that day?

do they mean the average levels (area under the curve) from 100mg intramuscularly every week versus one week of daily doses of l-dopa?

just another example of meaningless marketing hyperbole
 
thesinner said:
People on TRT take over twice that amount. I think it's just a fancy way of saying "it will increase your testosterone levels by 50%". If that would be more quantifiable for ya.
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Sure, but their claims are vague. You take powerfull everyday while TRT is typically once a week. Are they saying taking powerfull everyday is similar to 100mgs of test suspension everyday.
 
easymac said:
Sure, but their claims are vague. You take powerfull everyday while TRT is typically once a week. Are they saying taking powerfull everyday is similar to 100mgs of test suspension everyday.
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No, their info is too vague to say that. Not to mention that would ultimately mean that this is more powerful than a beginner's cycle of injectable testosterone (500mg/week) which is way too strong of a statement for anyone to be making. You are making the assumption that it is similar to injecting 100mg every day.
 
thesinner said:
No, their info is too vague to say that. Not to mention that would ultimately mean that this is more powerful than a beginner's cycle of injectable testosterone (500mg/week) which is way too strong of a statement for anyone to be making. You are making the assumption that it is similar to injecting 100mg every day.
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haha, yeah that is way more than most people would need. The question was rhetorical, i know it is not simlar to ed injections. I was just saying that the statement was very vague and could be misinterpreted. The claims are still pretty bold with no proof that it is even true.
Just for the record, i have taken powerfull and i enjoyed it so i have no beef with the product just with the advertising.
 
thesinner; said:
Why do I have a feeling this thread is going to get closed.
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You are not alone in that thinking.
 
thesinner said:
Just because something increases HGH and Test levels doesn't mean it's going build muslce. You also have to take into account how it increases them as well. You're making assumptions as to how this product works. I'm not trying to knock USP or promote PA by saying any of this, but we can't simply take data on hormone levels and say that for sure makes something anabolic. That's not how the scientific method works.
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at the end of the day regardless of whatever supps are used or whatever chems like test or gh etc are injected or ingested nothing builds muscle better than lifting weights with great nutrition and adequate rest

way too many people think that the answer to building muscle lies first and foremost in pill form or in a syringe!
 
b unit said:
at the end of the day regardless of whatever supps are used or whatever chems like test or gh etc are injected or ingested nothing builds muscle better than lifting weights with great nutrition and adequate rest

way too many people think that the answer to building muscle lies first and foremost in pill form or in a syringe!
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:goodpost:

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

Remind me to hit ya back tomorrow. You're ready to upgrade to 3 crowns. ;)
 
Patrick Arnold said:
these statements completely miss the point. rarely do my criticisms of competitors have anything to do with a product "per se". in fact, often the product is something i think is useful and i will say so in my posts alot of times

examples:

epistane
6-bromo
Jungle Warfare (6-dehydromethyltest)


with all three products (which have been involved in recent debates of mine) i have gone on the record as saying they are useful ingredients that apparently have ergogenic benefits.

the REAL POINT of my criticisms jacob is false and misleading claims. that is where i attack competitors, and i attack because it is unfair business practice to lie like that. For years i have taken the high ground in my advertisements and marketing and maintained a very modest and honest approach. I hate watching others make all this money the easy way, the way its always been done in this industry. I hate it so much i wanna puke every time i open up a mag or see some disgusting hype filled thread
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How much data behind 11-oxo? Pretty hefty claims in the lengthy write up. Your write ups are theoretical, but you have to work with what you got.

There is strong in VIVO evidence that synthetic L-dopa increases HGH 220%. A significant increase regardless on your opinion. We believe that our extract is better than synthetic and free of side effects. If we correlate data with injectable HGH, 3iu increases HGH to similiar levels. The l-dopa has a much shorter half life but for 120 minutes you get a significant increase.

I find faulty logic that if PA believe its BS than it must be BS. You are a smart man but you are not the end all say all in the industry.

I would like your permission to release our Cissus test results from Giant Nutrition.
 
thesinner said:
No, their info is too vague to say that. Not to mention that would ultimately mean that this is more powerful than a beginner's cycle of injectable testosterone (500mg/week) which is way too strong of a statement for anyone to be making. You are making the assumption that it is similar to injecting 100mg every day.
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a week
 
USPLabs said:
How much data behind 11-oxo? Pretty hefty claims in the lengthy write up. Your write ups are theoretical, but you have to work with what you got.

There is strong in VIVO evidence that synthetic L-dopa increases HGH 220%. A significant increase regardless on your opinion. We believe that our extract is better than synthetic and free of side effects. If we correlate data with injectable HGH, 3iu increases HGH to similiar levels. The l-dopa has a much shorter half life but for 120 minutes you get a significant increase.

I find faulty logic that if PA believe its BS than it must be BS. You are a smart man but you are not the end all say all in the industry.

I would like your permission to release our Cissus test results from Giant Nutrition.
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HGH increase from amino acids or from clonidine or from alpha-GPC or from hypoglycemia etc. means nothing unless there is a corresponding increase in IGF-1. Very often things can give GH spikes but you end up seeing no end physiological effects because this spike does not go on to cause a subsequent IGF-1 boost.

This is why GH releasers are a failed class of bodybuilding supplements. 220% GH spike that is back to baseline in 120 minutes followed by no IGF-1 increase equals no benefits. Show me the data for IGF-1 increase and then perhaps you will have my ear.

YOu will not release any tests on my products to the public before you release them to us privately and we have a chance to review them. If you do then you will have a lawsuit on your hands that you will regret.
 
USPLabs said:
How much data behind 11-oxo? Pretty hefty claims in the lengthy write up. Your write ups are theoretical, but you have to work with what you got.
.
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nothing in my write up is a lie or misleading or lacks scientific justification. I write that stuff with alot of thought and alot of care.
 
USPLabs said:
There is strong in VIVO evidence that synthetic L-dopa increases HGH 220%. A significant increase regardless on your opinion. We believe that our extract is better than synthetic and free of side effects. If we correlate data with injectable HGH, 3iu increases HGH to similiar levels. .
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explain how you reach this correlation

the facts as i know it are

1) a 20 year secretes 700mcg a day or so

2) 3iu GH is a little over 1000mcg

sorry but the amount of GH secreted during a 220% increase over baseline for 120 minutes does not come anywhere near 1000mcg.

MOD EDIT: Relax.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
explain how you reach this correlation

the facts as i know it are

1) a 20 year secretes 700mcg a day or so

2) 3iu GH is a little over 1000mcg

sorry but the amount of GH secreted during a 220% increase over baseline for 120 minutes does not come anywhere near 1000mcg.

you are pulling facts out of your ass again. why no one ever calls you on this stuff i dunno
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It's just a guess, but I would think something like this:
700mcg/12 = 58.3mcg per 120 minutes

1000mcg/12 = 83.3mcg per 120 minutes

58.3mcg+58.3mcg(2.20) = 186.56mcg per 120 minutes

186.56mcg*3 + 58.3*9 = 1084.38mcg
 
pat arnold = earl hicky

Invalid Link Removed

don't get me wrong though, i'm a big fan of pat man, i'm just loving the hairnet - that's all!!
 

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thesinner said:
It's just a guess, but I would think something like this:
700mcg/12 = 58.3mcg per 120 minutes

1000mcg/12 = 83.3mcg per 120 minutes

58.3mcg+58.3mcg(2.20) = 186.56mcg per 120 minutes

186.56mcg*3 + 58.3*9 = 1084.38mcg
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i don't understand what you are doing here at all.

it is very simple. he is saying that the extra gh you get when you take a dose of L-dopa is equivalent to 3iu.

that is one dose. not one dose times 12 or whatever you are doing here
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i don't understand what you are doing here at all.

it is very simple. he is saying that the extra gh you get when you take a dose of L-dopa is equivalent to 3iu.

that is one dose. not one dose times 12 or whatever you are doing here
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why do i sound so angry in my posts?
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i don't understand what you are doing here at all.

it is very simple. he is saying that the extra gh you get when you take a dose of L-dopa is equivalent to 3iu.

that is one dose. not one dose times 12 or whatever you are doing here
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You see, I was thinking he meant that by taking at the recommended dose, the additional boost + your baseline hgh levels would equate to 3iu of injectable.
 
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