powerfull vs Bulk 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzo

[Patrick Arnold]

Uh-oh...

Maybe they weren't so far off about that BBB thing:

1: Exp Neurol. 2005 Sep;195(1):267-71. Links
An active transport system in the blood-brain barrier may reduce levodopa availability.Hawkins RA, Mokashi A, Simpson IA.


Levodopa, the primary drug used to treat patients with Parkinson's disease, is transported into the brain by the facilitative amino acid transporter (L1). We present here an unanticipated discovery: levodopa may be pumped out of the brain by a Na(+)-dependent transport system that couples the naturally occurring Na(+) gradient existing between the brain's extracellular fluid and the cytoplasm of capillary endothelial cells. The activity of this system reduces the net availability of levodopa.

maybe who wasn't so far off about what?

L-dopa is a prodrug of dopamine that passess through the BBB. Anyone with half knowledge of pharmacology is quite familiar with this as it is one of the most famous drugs of the 20th century

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

pyrobenzol is an archaic alternative name for benzene so breaking the name down it appears that it either is a screwed up name for L-dopa or it is sort of a butanoic acid derivative of l-dopa (which has a propionic acid side chain). but if it is the latter then it would not be a dopamine precursor at all

I think they tried to be fancy with the name and messed up. what they should have said (and not that the structure of the name is right anyway) was

2-carboxy-2-amino-1-pyrobenzol-(3,4-diol)


bottom line is, this is not a derivative of L-dopa. It is just L-dopa plain and simple

I understand where you're coming from here, but based on the totally different subjective effects...I would be surprised.

Unless my brain chemistry has changed since using the L-dopa, and I'm handling the same compound differently...which I suppose could be the case with what goes in and out of my brain on a daily basis.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

maybe who wasn't so far off about what?

L-dopa is a prodrug of dopamine that passess through the BBB. Anyone with half knowledge of pharmacology is quite familiar with this as it is one of the most famous drugs of the 20th century

Right, but the above study is demonstrating a problem with L-Dopa's sustained central bioavailibility. To say that it doesn't cross the BBB is wrong, however. I'm saying this is probably where USP got the idea to claim that it doesn't cross the BBB.

This study is interesting to, from July of '07:

: Pharm Res. 2007 Jul;24(7):1309-24. Epub 2007 Apr 3. Links
Novel L-Dopa and dopamine prodrugs containing a 2-phenyl-imidazopyridine moiety.Denora N, Laquintana V, Lopedota A, Serra M, Dazzi L, Biggio G, Pal D, Mitra AK, Latrofa A, Trapani G, Liso G.


PURPOSE: The aim of this study was to gain insight into the feasibility of enhancing the delivery of L-Dopa and dopamine to the brain by linking these neurotransmitters and L-Dopa ethyl ester to 2-phenyl-3-carboxymethyl-imidazopyridine compounds giving rise to the so-called Dopimid compounds. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A number of Dopimid compounds were synthesized and both stability and binding studies to dopaminergic and benzodiazepine receptors were performed. To evaluate whether Dopimid compounds are P-gp substrates, [(3)H]ritonavir uptake experiments and bi-directional transport studies on confluent MDCKII-MDR1 monolayers were carried out. The brain penetration properties of Dopimid compounds were estimated by the Clark's computational model and evaluated by investigation of their transport across BBMECs monolayers. The dopamine levels following the intraperitoneal administration of the selected Dopimid compounds were measured in vivo by using brain microdialysis in rat. RESULTS: Tested compounds were adequately stable in solution buffered at pH 7.4 but undergo faster cleavage in dilute rat serum at 37 degrees C. Receptor binding studies showed that Dopimid compounds are essentially devoid of affinity for dopaminergic and benzodiazepine receptors. [(3)H]ritonavir uptake experiments indicated that selected Dopimid compounds, like L-Dopa and dopamine hydrochloride, are not substrates of P-gp and it was also confirmed by bi-directional transport experiments across MDCKII-MDR1 monolayers. By Clark's model a significant brain penetration was deduced for L-Dopa ethyl ester and dopamine derivatives. Transport studies involving BBMECs monolayers indicated that some of these compounds should be able to cross the BBB. Interestingly, the rank order of apparent permeability (P (app)) values observed in these assays parallels that calculated by the computational approach. Brain microdialysis experiments in rat showed that intraperitoneal acute administration of some Dopimid compounds induced a dose-dependent increase in cortical dopamine output. CONCLUSION: Based on these results, it may be concluded that some Dopimid compounds can be proposed as novel L-Dopa and dopamine prodrugs.

PMID: 17404814 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Right, but the above study is demonstrating a problem with L-Dopa's sustained central bioavailibility. To say that it doesn't cross the BBB is wrong, however. I'm saying this is probably where USP got the idea to claim that it doesn't cross the BBB.

This study is interesting to, from July of '07:

: Pharm Res. 2007 Jul;24(7):1309-24. Epub 2007 Apr 3. Links
Novel L-Dopa and dopamine prodrugs containing a 2-phenyl-imidazopyridine moiety.Denora N, Laquintana V, Lopedota A, Serra M, Dazzi L, Biggio G, Pal D, Mitra AK, Latrofa A, Trapani G, Liso G.


PURPOSE: The aim of this study was to gain insight into the feasibility of enhancing the delivery of L-Dopa and dopamine to the brain by linking these neurotransmitters and L-Dopa ethyl ester to 2-phenyl-3-carboxymethyl-imidazopyridine compounds giving rise to the so-called Dopimid compounds. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A number of Dopimid compounds were synthesized and both stability and binding studies to dopaminergic and benzodiazepine receptors were performed. To evaluate whether Dopimid compounds are P-gp substrates, [(3)H]ritonavir uptake experiments and bi-directional transport studies on confluent MDCKII-MDR1 monolayers were carried out. The brain penetration properties of Dopimid compounds were estimated by the Clark's computational model and evaluated by investigation of their transport across BBMECs monolayers. The dopamine levels following the intraperitoneal administration of the selected Dopimid compounds were measured in vivo by using brain microdialysis in rat. RESULTS: Tested compounds were adequately stable in solution buffered at pH 7.4 but undergo faster cleavage in dilute rat serum at 37 degrees C. Receptor binding studies showed that Dopimid compounds are essentially devoid of affinity for dopaminergic and benzodiazepine receptors. [(3)H]ritonavir uptake experiments indicated that selected Dopimid compounds, like L-Dopa and dopamine hydrochloride, are not substrates of P-gp and it was also confirmed by bi-directional transport experiments across MDCKII-MDR1 monolayers. By Clark's model a significant brain penetration was deduced for L-Dopa ethyl ester and dopamine derivatives. Transport studies involving BBMECs monolayers indicated that some of these compounds should be able to cross the BBB. Interestingly, the rank order of apparent permeability (P (app)) values observed in these assays parallels that calculated by the computational approach. Brain microdialysis experiments in rat showed that intraperitoneal acute administration of some Dopimid compounds induced a dose-dependent increase in cortical dopamine output. CONCLUSION: Based on these results, it may be concluded that some Dopimid compounds can be proposed as novel L-Dopa and dopamine prodrugs.

PMID: 17404814 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

whatever the case, they really threw me for a a "WTF?" by saying that L-dopa does not cross the blood brain barrier.

certainly the derivative in the abstract there is too sophisticated and expensive for a supplement. and if you were gonna get that complex you are better served spending the resources and intellectual capital on more promising avenues then L-dopa

 

[thesinner]

pyrobenzol is an archaic alternative name for benzene so breaking the name down it appears that it either is a screwed up name for L-dopa or it is sort of a butanoic acid derivative of l-dopa (which has a propionic acid side chain). but if it is the latter then it would not be a dopamine precursor at all

I think they tried to be fancy with the name and messed up. what they should have said (and not that the structure of the name is right anyway) was

2-carboxy-2-amino-1-pyrobenzol-(3,4-diol)


bottom line is, this is not a derivative of L-dopa. It is just L-dopa plain and simple

I never heard anyone say it was a precursor. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I would imagine there could be other ways for it to raise dopamine levels. I've had suspicions about a few other products by USPLabs (ingredients with uncommon names), but I try to keep an open mind about it.

Here's what they had on their writeup about 1-C, in case you hadn't seen it.

A few years back a compound hit the bodybuilding scene with a lot of promise. It had great scientific research to back it up. That compound’s name was L-Dopa.

As you may know, L-Dopa could never duplicate it’s scientific performance in the real world. For one reason: L-Dopa could never cross the blood brain barrier…it would get absorbed in the blood stream and all hope of increased HGH production was lost!

In order for the brain to turn L-Dopa into dopamine…and therefore shoot HGH levels through the roof…this major obstacle had to be overcome…

At USP Labs we knew if we could come up with a bioavailable form of L-Dopa that had the ability to cross the blood/brain barrier it would help bodybuilders everywhere increase natural HGH release, natural Testosterone production, drive sex drive through the roof, build muscle, lose body fat and sleep like a rock.

Well, you will be glad when you hear we have succeeded! But, we totally skipped the L-Dopa part and discovered a brand new compound that’s closely related and is readily available for the body to use!

It’s called 1-C and it’s here to rock your world…

1-C, or 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzol(3,4 diol), is closely related to l-Dopa. In the past, many supplements touted L-Dopa as the next BIG THING in the supplement industry, but if failed miserably.

Synthetic L-dopa was created by the pharmaceutical industry to use in Parkisons disease to increase Dopamine levels that could increase muscle coordination. The research was good and bad mainly because Parkisons is not a well understood disease yet.

Again, in a study done in India, it was found that 1-C (a natural l-Dopa derivative) increased HGH levels through increasing dopamine levels naturally.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I never heard anyone say it was a precursor. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I would imagine there could be other ways for it to raise dopamine levels. I've had suspicions about a few other products by USPLabs (ingredients with uncommon names), but I try to keep an open mind about it.

Here's what they had on their writeup about 1-C, in case you hadn't seen it.

the herb they say this is from is the same herb that everyone else gets regular l-dopa from

everything points to this being plain l-dopa

i would love for them to prove me wrong

 

[thesinner]

the herb they say this is from is the same herb that everyone else gets regular l-dopa from

everything points to this being plain l-dopa

i would love for them to prove me wrong

Just because you know there's one particular alkaloid in the plant, doesn't mean that's the only one it contains. A lot of times plants contain several very similar alkaloids in them, look at chocolate, yerba mate, and guarana; they contain several xanthine group alkaloids in varying concetrations.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Just because you know there's one particular alkaloid in the plant, doesn't mean that's the only one it contains. A lot of times plants contain several very similar alkaloids in them, look at chocolate, yerba mate, and guarana; they contain several xanthine group alkaloids in varying concetrations.

i am aware of that

but surely this would be a compound i would be familiar with, and others would be familiar with if it indeed is present in mucura puriens along with l-dopa

you are a nice guy so why don't you enquire with usp about this. i hope they don't play the "propietary information" game

 

[xjsynx]

All this L-dopa talk makes me think of Leonard...

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

you are a nice guy so why don't you enquire with usp about this. i hope they don't play the "propietary information" game

2nd that vote. I'd like to hear what they have to say.

 

[b unit]

All this L-dopa talk makes me think of Leonard...

Invalid Link Removed

great call:thumbsup:

 

[b unit]

looks like PA been smoking a little too much L dopa judging by the pic

 

[vince spider]

i must have some serious placebo going on with my powerfull then if pat arnolds right:jaw:

 

[nycste]

i just dont understand how pat would say something like that when i know for sure most people seem to love powerfull and among all the people a small sample size must be proving that it works or does something beneficial.

i actually tested powerfull i think a while back got a bunch of pills in mail i dont honestly remember anything from it i think i continued to succed in my workouts and whatever but nothing that i remember being amazing. im not bashing powerfull i hope or look foward to trying it again soon.

 

[b unit]

Placebo
•From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Placebo effect is the term applied by medical science to the therapeutical and healing effects of inert medicines and/or ritualistic or faith healing manipulations.[1] [2]. When referring to medicines, placebo is a preparation which is pharmacologically inert but which may have a therapeutical effect based solely on the power of suggestion. It may be administered in any of the ways in which pharmaceutical products are administered.[3] Regarding placebo procedures, psychic surgery is a clear example.

Sometimes known as non-specific effects or subject-expectancy effects, a so-called placebo effect occurs when a patient's symptoms are altered in some way (i.e., alleviated or exacerbated) by an otherwise inert treatment, due to the individual expecting or believing that it will work. Some people consider this to be a remarkable aspect of human physiology; others consider it to be an illusion arising from the way medical experiments are conducted.

The placebo effect occurs when a patient takes an inert substance (“a sugar pill”) in conjunction with the suggestion from an authority figure that the pill will aid in healing and the patient’s condition improves. This effect has been known for years.

for more information on placebo Invalid Link Removed)

 

[thesinner]

i must have some serious placebo going on with my powerfull then if pat arnolds right:jaw:

There's other factors aside from the placebo effect to be taken into account when validating anecdotal experience. Keep in mind that aside from whatever supplements you are taking you are taking steps (diet, training, lifestyle, etc.) to achieve a certain result. Especially with a guy as dedicated as yourself, regardless of whether or not the supplements work, there "ain't nuthin'" getting between you and your goals. You what I mean?

 

[vince spider]

There's other factors aside from the placebo effect to be taken into account when validating anecdotal experience. Keep in mind that aside from whatever supplements you are taking you are taking steps (diet, training, lifestyle, etc.) to achieve a certain result. Especially with a guy as dedicated as yourself, regardless of whether or not the supplements work, there "ain't nuthin'" getting between you and your goals. You what I mean?

:goodpost: thats a fair call dude, but i still definetly have better sleep , increased libido, as well as more controlled agression and what i thought seemed to be bettet results in the gym . that was until mr arnold rained on my parade:sad:

 

[thesinner]

i just dont understand how pat would say something like that when i know for sure most people seem to love powerfull and among all the people a small sample size must be proving that it works or does something beneficial.

i actually tested powerfull i think a while back got a bunch of pills in mail i dont honestly remember anything from it i think i continued to succed in my workouts and whatever but nothing that i remember being amazing. im not bashing powerfull i hope or look foward to trying it again soon.

I don't think Pat is attacking the effectiveness of powerfull, I think he's trying to figure out what the heck it is first.

 

[thesinner]

:goodpost: thats a fair call dude, but i still definetly have better sleep , increased libido, as well as more controlled agression and what i thought seemed to be bettet results in the gym . that was until mr arnold rained on my parade:sad:

Oh man, I tried powerfull two years ago (original batch). That stuff made me crazy sleepy. I'm pretty sure L-Dopa this effect as well as it is used in some herbal sleep supplements.

 

[b unit]

There's other factors aside from the placebo effect to be taken into account when validating anecdotal experience. Keep in mind that aside from whatever supplements you are taking you are taking steps (diet, training, lifestyle, etc.) to achieve a certain result. Especially with a guy as dedicated as yourself, regardless of whether or not the supplements work, there "ain't nuthin'" getting between you and your goals. You what I mean?

in saying that though sinner, with a guy as dedicated as vince spider ,that's already going on anyway (diet, training, lifestyle, etc.) so don't you think that he's going to notice and effect or not when he's using a particular supplement?

just throwing it out in the mix

 

[thesinner]

you can try l-dopa for a while if you like, it is very cheap. it may give you a transient lift. i remember when i was taking it i thought i felt something at first but then it seemed it was doing nothing. and you should not take it for too long because it has potentially serious side effects

i am curious about the claims that USP makes in their ads. they are saying that l-dopa does not pass the blood brain barrier but that is a complete contradicition because the very reason l-dopa was developed was to pass the blood brain barrier. the purpose was to increase dopamine levels in the brain (particularly a region called the substantia nigra) for the treatment of parkinsons disease. L-dopa could pass into the brain and then metabolize into dopamine afterwards - dopamine itself cannot pass the BBB

to learn about l-dopa, the FACTS about l-dopa, all you have to do is check out the wikipedia entry. Invalid Link Removed

You gotta be careful with wiki...you really get what you paid for with that.

 

[b unit]

I don't think Pat is attacking the effectiveness of powerfull, I think he's trying to figure out what the heck it is first.

here's what he said

i am a bit confused. the only thing other than l-dopa this powerful has is some plant sterols

l-dopa actually f's up your sleep. gives you weird dreams. and the stuff certainly does not build muscle

and i never heard of plant sterols doing much of anything.

 

[b unit]

:goodpost: thats a fair call dude, but i still definetly have better sleep , increased libido, as well as more controlled agression and what i thought seemed to be bettet results in the gym . that was until mr arnold rained on my parade:sad:

it was placeboFULL :whiner:

 

[thesinner]

here's what he said

Well L-dopa doesn't build muscle. It's a precursor to dopamine. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter, similar to epinephrine & norepinephrine (they're all catecholamines), which causes a variety of different effects in the body. Any muscle building properties to come from L-Dopa would be from an indirect pathway. It sounds to me that Patrick has not seen anything suggesting a direct correlation between L-Dopa and musclebuilding. He's also not 100% that this is L-Dopa, just very suspicious.

You'll see on their write-up that it says this product has been shown to increase HGH and testosterone; however, this alone (on a scientific basis) does not necessarily mean that it will build muscle. Believe it or not, there were a lot of scientists back in the day who were convinced that Legit Anabolic Steroids wouldn't work. Obviously, research proved them wrong.

 

[b unit]

Well L-dopa doesn't build muscle. It's a precursor to dopamine. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter, similar to epinephrine & norepinephrine (they're all catecholamines), which causes a variety of different effects in the body. Any muscle building properties to come from L-Dopa would be from an indirect pathway. It sounds to me that Patrick has not seen anything suggesting a direct correlation between L-Dopa and musclebuilding. He's also not 100% that this is L-Dopa, just very suspicious.

You'll see on their write-up that it says this product has been shown to increase HGH and testosterone; however, this alone (on a scientific basis) does not necessarily mean that it will build muscle. Believe it or not, there were a lot of scientists back in the day who were convinced that Legit Anabolic Steroids wouldn't work. Obviously, research proved them wrong.

i await pats reply on this one, i'm sure he'll have some scientific response on it

over to u pat

Invalid Link Removed

 

[ReaperX]

Funny how this thread is addressing PowerFULL and there isn't a single USPLabs representative in sight to prove Patrick wrong.

Instead of arguing in behalf of USPLabs, why don't THEY give us the insight as to why PA is wrong and why PowerFULL is still 'off the hook' per se.

Consumer sales do not equal an effective product. All it means is that people are buying it....with various reasons as to why.


If Patrick is really wrong why doesn't the company who produces the product defend itself ? I'm sure a rep has seen this thread.

BTW, if you screwed up on the nomenclature, you are technically 'mislabeling' a product which is illegal.

 

[easymac]

If Patrick is really wrong why doesn't the company who produces the product defend itself ? I'm sure a rep has seen this thread.

what he said

 

[thesinner]

Funny how this thread is addressing PowerFULL and there isn't a single USPLabs representative in sight to prove Patrick wrong.

Instead of arguing in behalf of USPLabs, why don't THEY give us the insight as to why PA is wrong and why PowerFULL is still 'off the hook' per se.

Consumer sales do not equal an effective product. All it means is that people are buying it....with various reasons as to why.


If Patrick is really wrong why doesn't the company who produces the product defend itself ? I'm sure a rep has seen this thread.

BTW, if you screwed up on the nomenclature, you are technically 'mislabeling' a product which is illegal.

This is not something a rep should get into unless given the "OK" from Jacob. You have to understand that a rep is just simply someone who's sponsored by the company to promote them on message boards. DO they know all the science 'mumbo jumbo' Patrick is inquiring? Not necessarily. There's no benefit for a rep to jump in and risk diggining himself in a hole arguing things beyond his understanding.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I'm going to run a series of blood glucose tests on both 1-Carboxy and L-Dopa over the next few days, and compare results.

The only result that would be useful would be a large discrepancy in outcomes...so I'll be looking for that.

I'm thinking I'll set it up like this:

Take morning fasting BG.

Eat a standard meal (or shake) that will remain constant throughout all tests.

Take BG at 60, 90, and 120 min post prandial. This is baseline.

The next day test L-Dopa. Same meal, same time of day.

60min post, I'll take BG and immediately take 250mg L-Dopa
Then take 90, 120, 150min readings.

Next day, test 800mg 1-Carboxy, same fashion

Next day, 500mg L-Dopa, same

Next day, 1600mg 1-Carboxy, same

Patrick, any suggestions?

Now, this is assuming that both compounds should have some effect on post-prandial BG, which may not even be the case. We'll find out.

 

[ReaperX]

Awesome. Make sure to post the results !

 

[Mike Combs]

i await pats reply on this one, i'm sure he'll have some scientific response on it

over to u pat

Invalid Link Removed

judging by the photo, patrick looks like he's done quite a bit of practical work with l dopa, can it be smoked? he looks smashed!

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Anybody have the full text on this?

1: Exp Clin Endocrinol. 1983 Jan;81(1):41-8.Links
Effect of l-dopa on growth hormone, glucose, insulin, and cortisol response in obese subjects.Vizner B, Reiner Z, Sekso M.

Plasma growth hormone, glucose, insulin and cortisol response to oral administration of L-dopa and in insulin-tolerance test were investigated in 18 obese subjects. The results were compared with the results obtained in 10 normal subjects. The obese subjects displayed a lack of growth hormone responsiveness to L-dopa and a diminished GH responsiveness to hypoglycemia. There was no significant difference in glucose response to hypoglycemia in normal and obese subjects. Obese subjects showed normal increments of plasma cortisol following induction of hypoglycemia although there was no consistent cortisol response after L-dopa administration. A blood glucose response following L-dopa administration was seen in most of normal subjects while no increment of blood glucose was noticed in obese subjects.

PMID: 6343098 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I'd like to see what that "response" was.

 

[thesinner]

I'm going to run a series of blood glucose tests on both 1-Carboxy and L-Dopa over the next few days, and compare results.

The only result that would be useful would be a large discrepancy in outcomes...so I'll be looking for that.

I'm thinking I'll set it up like this:

Take morning fasting BG.

Eat a standard meal (or shake) that will remain constant throughout all tests.

Take BG at 60, 90, and 120 min post prandial. This is baseline.

The next day test L-Dopa. Same meal, same time of day.

60min post, I'll take BG and immediately take 250mg L-Dopa
Then take 90, 120, 150min readings.

Next day, test 800mg 1-Carboxy, same fashion

Next day, 500mg L-Dopa, same

Next day, 1600mg 1-Carboxy, same

Patrick, any suggestions?

Now, this is assuming that both compounds should have some effect on post-prandial BG, which may not even be the case. We'll find out.

can you run an FTIR of both and scan the curves? I think that would be an faster/easier way of at least saying it isnt L-Dopa.

 

[thesinner]

in saying that though sinner, with a guy as dedicated as vince spider ,that's already going on anyway (diet, training, lifestyle, etc.) so don't you think that he's going to notice and effect or not when he's using a particular supplement?

just throwing it out in the mix

Think of it like a math equation:

Results = x + y + z

Where
x=placebo effect
y=effect from user workin' his balls off
z=effectiveness of the product

By anecdotal experience, we are able to conclude that the user had a good experience while using the product, but there are too many other factors in the equation to be able to attribute anything quantifiable to the product. We'll never know the value of z because we have no way of finding x or y.

 

[strategicmove]

i await pats reply on this one, i'm sure he'll have some scientific response on it

over to u pat

Agree completely. The entire discussion was sparked off by Patrick Arnold's statement that L-Dopa had no anabolic properties, direct or indirect, and that plant sterols were basically useless in a general sense.
Most of the subsequent discussion has centered on subjective interpretations of what he actually might have wanted to say. I am sure he would find time to clarify his thoughts here. And do that better than anyone else. That would help cut a lot of speculation. And advance our objective knowledge a tad.

 

[strategicmove]

Think of it like a math equation:

Results = x + y + z

Where
x=placebo effect
y=effect from user workin' his balls off
z=effectiveness of the product

By anecdotal experience, we are able to conclude that the user had a good experience while using the product, but there are too many other factors in the equation to be able to attribute anything quantifiable to the product. We'll never know the value of z because we have no way of finding x or y.

Agree with your thinking. Yet, you might approach the value of z by doing the following:

let z = z1 + z2

then,

Results = x + y + z1 + z2

If z1 represents the new supplement you have just added and z2 represents all the other supplements other than the current one, then you can approach a value for z1 by determining the impact on "Results" due to z1, if everything else in the equation remained unchanged. I agree x may also change due to z1, but this change in x will taper off with time.

 

[pistonpump]

I don't think Pat is attacking the effectiveness of powerfull, I think he's trying to figure out what the heck it is first.

i think he did say its ingredients dont build muscle or have a postive effect on muscle.

 

[pistonpump]

Well L-dopa doesn't build muscle. It's a precursor to dopamine. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter, similar to epinephrine & norepinephrine (they're all catecholamines), which causes a variety of different effects in the body. Any muscle building properties to come from L-Dopa would be from an indirect pathway. It sounds to me that Patrick has not seen anything suggesting a direct correlation between L-Dopa and musclebuilding. He's also not 100% that this is L-Dopa, just very suspicious.

You'll see on their write-up that it says this product has been shown to increase HGH and testosterone; however, this alone (on a scientific basis) does not necessarily mean that it will build muscle. Believe it or not, there were a lot of scientists back in the day who were convinced that Legit Anabolic Steroids wouldn't work. Obviously, research proved them wrong.

let PA back his own statements, i doubt he needs your help.

HGH and testosterone do not build muscle? okay, well it doesnt but it sure does help and play a big part in whether muscle gets built and how much.....so if this product does increase GH production over baseline then that would mean it would help to build muscle among other benefiets, it wouldnt do it directly but indirectly but why would it matter if its overall outcome is aided muscle benefiets?

 

[thesinner]

let PA back his own statements, i doubt he needs your help.

HGH and testosterone do not build muscle? okay, well it doesnt but it sure does help and play a big part in whether muscle gets built and how much.....so if this product does increase GH production over baseline then that would mean it would help to build muscle among other benefiets, it wouldnt do it directly but indirectly but why would it matter if its overall outcome is aided muscle benefiets?

He doesn't need my help. I just get annoyed sometimes because a lot of the things he says are misinterpretted.

Just because something increases HGH and Test levels doesn't mean it's going build muslce. You also have to take into account how it increases them as well. You're making assumptions as to how this product works. I'm not trying to knock USP or promote PA by saying any of this, but we can't simply take data on hormone levels and say that for sure makes something anabolic. That's not how the scientific method works.

 

[pistonpump]

Just because something increases HGH and Test levels doesn't mean it's going build muslce. You also have to take into account how it increases them as well. You're making assumptions as to how this product works. I'm not trying to knock USP or promote PA by saying any of this, but we can't simply take data on hormone levels and say that for sure makes something anabolic. That's not how the scientific method works.

okay i dont understand. if something increases test and or gh that doesnt equate to more help with muscle building?:think: why supplement either then? please explain im confused by what youre saying.

 

[strategicmove]

If "muscle-building" is synonymous with "anabolic", and if testosterone is one of the most anabolic compounds known to science, and if L-Dopa's anabolic pathway occurs via increased growth hormone (GH) secretion and enhanced endogenous testosterone release via a prolactin-inhibiting mechanism, then it is hard to imagine that L-Dopa has no anabolic properties, direct or indirect. How substantial this anabolic impact actually is, is an entirely different matter.

 

[thesinner]

okay i dont understand. if something increases test and or gh that doesnt equate to more help with muscle building?:think: why supplement either then? please explain im confused by what youre saying.

I'm gonna use Formadrol (by LG Sciences) to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about. One of the ingredients in this product has been shown numerous times to increase LH. We all associate LH with testosterone secretion; however, this particular ingredient has been shown to lower testosterone. Why would this happen? It has to do with how it increases LH in the first place: it's antiandrogenic.

In the science world, you cannot say that something will build muslce without data explicitly showing that it does in fact build muscle. You can say it increases Test and HGH. Will that build muscle? It might, but it also might not. The transitive property doesn't apply to biochemistry; you can't say since A->B and B->C, then A->C.

 

[ReaperX]

yup. A->C the way you write it assumes that there was a direct transition and completely leaves out the intermediate.

 

[thesinner]

yup. A->C the way you write it assumes that there was a direct transition and completely leaves out the intermediate.

Bingo :thumbsup:

 

[Patrick Arnold]

There's other factors aside from the placebo effect to be taken into account when validating anecdotal experience. Keep in mind that aside from whatever supplements you are taking you are taking steps (diet, training, lifestyle, etc.) to achieve a certain result. Especially with a guy as dedicated as yourself, regardless of whether or not the supplements work, there "ain't nuthin'" getting between you and your goals. You what I mean?

great marketing can go a long way to generate a strong placebo response. i remember reading about this stuff called hot stuff back in 89-90. it was advertised in more obscure bodybuilding publications first and then got more mainstream over time. it swore to be a steroid equivalent and had everything but the kitchen sink in there. i sent away for it and got it in the mail and opened it up and it was like a unique treasure with its odd orange looking label. i tasted its strange banana flavor and thought to myself that i was drinking a truly unique concoction. i could swear i felt the testosterone running through my veins and i worked out harder and ate better then i could in a long time. i made great progress and swore up and down that hot stuff was amazing stuff

later i found out it was complete BS

the same thing happened to me about a year or two later with the first metrx, but to a lesser extent

 

[Patrick Arnold]

i await pats reply on this one, i'm sure he'll have some scientific response on it

over to u pat

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titties

 

[pistonpump]

why dont you test it PA?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I'm going to run a series of blood glucose tests on both 1-Carboxy and L-Dopa over the next few days, and compare results.

The only result that would be useful would be a large discrepancy in outcomes...so I'll be looking for that.

I'm thinking I'll set it up like this:

Take morning fasting BG.

Eat a standard meal (or shake) that will remain constant throughout all tests.

Take BG at 60, 90, and 120 min post prandial. This is baseline.

The next day test L-Dopa. Same meal, same time of day.

60min post, I'll take BG and immediately take 250mg L-Dopa
Then take 90, 120, 150min readings.

Next day, test 800mg 1-Carboxy, same fashion

Next day, 500mg L-Dopa, same

Next day, 1600mg 1-Carboxy, same

Patrick, any suggestions?

Now, this is assuming that both compounds should have some effect on post-prandial BG, which may not even be the case. We'll find out.

sounds like a real ass backwards way to analyze a product. but then again you don't have a lab like i do

 

[strategicmove]

why dont you test it PA?

What should he test?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

can you run an FTIR of both and scan the curves? I think that would be an faster/easier way of at least saying it isnt L-Dopa.

we have GC/ms but unfortunately amino acids will not come out on a GC.

we can do a melting point though