Post workout carbs crucial or counter productive?
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WORKOUT COACH
New member
Dont believe the hype! Carbohydrates are not essential post workout. Go Protien + fats and you will be better off trust me.
Nitrox
Board Supporter
Stupid article. Especially point #3: 'Possibly increased GH levels.' Well are they increased yes or no? If so does it provide a NET benefit to MUSCLE anabolism. Did I mention that this is a stupid article?
Nitrox
Board Supporter
Just because something is not 'essential' does not mean that it is not useful or beneficial.
fitnessbyalex
Member
This whole "carbs aren't essential" thing is utter ignorance. Of course they are essential for bodybuilding purposes. Plain and simple. I mean, you can build muscle in a ketogenic state, but not with absolutely 0 carbs! You will still need enough fiber and trace carbs to provide the body with its minimum requirements and have SOME glycogen to train with.
higher carb meals are great pre and post workout but the post workout sugar-shake/insulin spike thing is nonsense. Exercise causes skeletal muscle to become very receptive to glucose uptake to form glycogen and it maintains this sensitivity until glycogen levels are full. Although insulin helps, it is not necessary in excess quantities to facilitate this. Glycogen replenishment is a 24/7 process whether we like it or not. Only so much can be done at once and the hormonal/nervous system cascade occurring post-workout is in-congruent with immediately consuming a bunch of sugar. Most people end up fat doing this. Weight training causes a pulse in GH. Sugar causes a pulse in insulin. Insulin and GH are inversely related - Elevate insulin and you suppress GH. Some people with exceptional metabolisms may benefit from this post workout insulin spike, but I think a balanced meal, higher in carbs with a lean protein source is more effective and more beneficial soon after a workout. If a shake is easier to digest then this is advisable, however no need to take in 100g dextrose. Oats or something to that effect work just fine.
-Alex
Chops89
Member
I stick with a purely whey+creatine shake post-workout, then a meal containing high complex carbohydrates and protein 15-30 minutes after. I have seen no benefit from spiking my insulin with simple carbohydrates immediately after a workout. I feel that consuming complex carbohydrates consistently throughout the day is enough to replenish my glycogen without the fat gain.
FilipeBR
Member
fitnessbyalex
Member
No. Don't be confused by the polar extremes of either fats OR carbs. What I am saying is there's no general benefit to a sugar rush post workout to spike insulin. It will make most people fat, and physiologically it makes little sense. The superficial idea is great since insulin is so anabolic however for most people (and their average metabolisms) it doesn't workout so ideally in the end. Have a balanced meal - low fat would be ideal for a meal following a workout, however complex carbs are just as if not more effective at promoting muscle glycogen uptake and recovery than a sugar rush. The body can only do so much at a time and glycogen replenishment will take hours not minutes (especially given the CNS and hormonal circumstances following a workout). I am not saying the PWO insulin spike won't work for some people - obviously it does. I am saying that from a physiological stand-point, from my experience and from my client's experiences it generally has failed to produce more positive results than negative.
-Alex
fitnessbyalex
Member
thanks brother!
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
There's a lot that can be covered here, and the depth depends on background and belief system.
Every other month carbs are evil and fats are essential.
Post-workout nutrition seems to take on this crazy fad and need with all of us bb-ers. What do I need, how much do I need, what should I take, whats the best form?
Glycogen is depleted after your workout and your hormones are primed to saturate your body with glycogen, so a decent amount of carbs may be essential but it depends on the level of depletion during your workout. Too much at this time can be counter-productive and that depends on your sensitivity to insulin. You need to find what works for you and your body. I am really against having higher levels of fats post-workout as fats slow the absorption of nutrients and fibrous foods have a similar effect. I do not see why at a time your body can be super saturated with nutrients a person would decide to slow this process with fats. Do not dump loads of carbs into your sytem and thinking it will get you Jay Cutler status. Maybe the athlete Jay Cutler, but more along the lines of becoming a diabetic vs. throwing for 1000s of yards and playing in the NFL. I find that for myself as well as clients that 3 larger meals (breakfast, pre-, and post- workout) should comprise most of your calories for the day and the 2-3 other meals taking up the remainder. Divide up your meals in a balanced fashion and you should be safe. Again, keep the fats lower during the immediate post-workout meal.
Every other month carbs are evil and fats are essential.
Post-workout nutrition seems to take on this crazy fad and need with all of us bb-ers. What do I need, how much do I need, what should I take, whats the best form?
Glycogen is depleted after your workout and your hormones are primed to saturate your body with glycogen, so a decent amount of carbs may be essential but it depends on the level of depletion during your workout. Too much at this time can be counter-productive and that depends on your sensitivity to insulin. You need to find what works for you and your body. I am really against having higher levels of fats post-workout as fats slow the absorption of nutrients and fibrous foods have a similar effect. I do not see why at a time your body can be super saturated with nutrients a person would decide to slow this process with fats. Do not dump loads of carbs into your sytem and thinking it will get you Jay Cutler status. Maybe the athlete Jay Cutler, but more along the lines of becoming a diabetic vs. throwing for 1000s of yards and playing in the NFL. I find that for myself as well as clients that 3 larger meals (breakfast, pre-, and post- workout) should comprise most of your calories for the day and the 2-3 other meals taking up the remainder. Divide up your meals in a balanced fashion and you should be safe. Again, keep the fats lower during the immediate post-workout meal.
fitnessbyalex
Member
I agree entirely with what you are saying. I structure my pre workout meal and post workout meal similarly as far as macro nutrient quantities. Post workout however I advocate faster absorbing nutrients like whey isolate and grits for instance, or whey and maltodextrin with a little added fiber 2-5g. There is no reason for a big insulin dump, nor an entirely fiber/fat free endless sugar shake. Some fiber is okay, and 1-5g of fat is okay. For instance if one chose to eat white fish and white rice post workout instead of whey and grits that would be fine. It doesn't have to be 100g of 500,000% (exaggeration) faster absorbing Waxy maize starch with whey isolate. These extremes and fads just sell products. The easiest thing to do is consume 75% of your carbs evenly over breakfast, pre and post workout. Post workout you can afford to have faster absorbing, more easily digested nutrients but overloading and polar extremes should be avoided. The muscles stay sensitive to glycogen uptake from after the the workout until when they are full and this doesn't REQUIRE insulin to take place. Insulin can be taken advantage of slightly in a bulking environment as its highly anabolic however super insulin rushes with lots of sugar = fat gain. The body can only do so much at once and post workout one's CNS is excited and hormones like GH are elevated. This will also render the giant insulin spike physiologically senseless. On the surface it sounds great but in reality its just marketing. Also no need to immediately slam down a meal/shake. Take 15 mins to stretch, let your heart rate slow and CNS calm down. Then eat. It will be more effective.
-Alex
Flaw
Well-known member
I believe pre-workout nutrition is far more important then post-workout. You must make sure your blood sugar/glycogen stores are elevated when going into a workout because if they are not your workout will suffer and your muscle won't work properly. You will either start out good and hit a wall or just plain not have a good workout. Then after a workout just make sure you continuously get your scheduled balanced meals in to keep nutrient intake flowing.
Years ago I argued post workout nutrition and it's lack of credibility and a majority said I didn't know what I was talking about. Many reports out there showed how carbs plus protein post-workout improve glycogen stores and speed recovery and blah blah but does it make a overal huge difference in lbs of muscle and recovery? The answer is no. Many can get the same results by just properly timing their well balanced meals. Studies have shown that your body is gonna get the nutrients it needs at it's own rate. As alex mentioned our system is gonna replenish itself whether we want it to or not. It's gonna do what it takes to repair, build and keep going. I'm glad the hype is starting to fade and the real knowledge is starting to be seen. I mean come on? Ask yourself? How did guys build muscle before all these supplements and methods came about? They trained hard and ate real FOOD! You'd think they were at a disadvantage or something but we probably are cause we fall to a lot of hype and we wast a lot of money because of it.
So crucial or counterproductive? Possibly counterproductive because of the big unnessesary insulin spike.
Years ago I argued post workout nutrition and it's lack of credibility and a majority said I didn't know what I was talking about. Many reports out there showed how carbs plus protein post-workout improve glycogen stores and speed recovery and blah blah but does it make a overal huge difference in lbs of muscle and recovery? The answer is no. Many can get the same results by just properly timing their well balanced meals. Studies have shown that your body is gonna get the nutrients it needs at it's own rate. As alex mentioned our system is gonna replenish itself whether we want it to or not. It's gonna do what it takes to repair, build and keep going. I'm glad the hype is starting to fade and the real knowledge is starting to be seen. I mean come on? Ask yourself? How did guys build muscle before all these supplements and methods came about? They trained hard and ate real FOOD! You'd think they were at a disadvantage or something but we probably are cause we fall to a lot of hype and we wast a lot of money because of it.
So crucial or counterproductive? Possibly counterproductive because of the big unnessesary insulin spike.
EustisPanther
Member
for me a ton of carbs post workout just keeps me blotted and feeling huge. What works for me... NOT ALL... is between 40-60g of protein and maybe 20-30g of carbs from rice cakes, or something of the sort. Depending on the level of exertion I will have as little as 10-15g of carbs, simply to help with the digestion process. And a few G's of fish oil
And another meal, with the same or slightly more carbs 90-150 minutes later.
Post/Shake 30g Whey Concentrate/Isolate , 10g Casein , maybe some Soy as well.
And another meal, with the same or slightly more carbs 90-150 minutes later.
Post/Shake 30g Whey Concentrate/Isolate , 10g Casein , maybe some Soy as well.
Nitrox
Board Supporter
Different carbs cause different amount of bloating. Rice is one of the least bloat causing.
EustisPanther
Member
yeah i've noticed that.. I'm extremely carb sensitive. I have a slow metabolism, so some days I have to eat less than my GF who weighs 85 lbs less than me lol so I don't gain body fat.
for me crap like maltodextrin , waxy maize , and other sugary crap that seems to be in so many post work out products just sucks. I like the rice cakes, or maybe some slices of ezekial bread.
fitnessbyalex
Member
correct. Choosing food's based on their qualitative value is just as important as choosing foods to meet quantitative macro needs.
-Alex
fitnessbyalex
Member
Agreed. These companies and magazines that push the hype to market trends and products do so very well. It is easy to get caught up in it if you don't have a solid understanding of how the body works. That's why knowledge is power and the best thing we can all do is keep learning.
-Alex
lonewolf0420
Well-known member
Any thoughts on Gatorade pre-workout?
Flaw
Well-known member
No go. Gatorade is best used during/intra workouts when your either excerting sweat or lots of energy to help you keep hydrated as well as keeping your blood sugar elevated. It's more useful for long training events. It is ideal for the athlete, runners and any sport competitor in which the events are long. In bodybuilding or weight lifting it doesn't serve a great use. Why you wouldn't wanna use it pre-workout is because you'd get a insulin spike and then crash which will make u tired. Gatorade is best used sparingly just like coffee. Sip a little at a time. You wouldn't wanna chug it all at once otherwise you get that crash. The only case that you would want to chug gatorade is if you are dehydrated or suffering from hypoglycemia in which you need nutrients right away.
lonewolf0420
Well-known member
Thanks. I've had a 12pack sitting in my closet. Haven't used it. I mostly save it for if I wake up hungover. If and when I have a few drinks.
Flaw
Well-known member
Yea, it's good for that too! haha.. but as a suggestion before a workout just make sure your getting in your meals regularly. For a lot of us 2 solid balanced meals or atleast 1 meal and a snack or meal replacement is good before we workout. A complex carbohydrate is a ideal source of carb before a workout.. not a simple like the sugars that is loaded in gatorade. I like waxy maize starch for this purpose if I have to get in a quick meal replacement and haven't had time to get a actual real meal. I put a scoop or 2 with some whey and good to go workout within a half hour. This is the only supplemental carb source I like and find it useful is certain occasions.
killamac27
Member
dont fats post wo slow digestion?
lonewolf0420
Well-known member
Fat's anytime, slow digestion.
msucurt
Well-known member
my PWO regimen.....changes all the time...
1. 40g whey + 1/2C oats
2. 40g whey + 1/2C blueberries/blackberries/apples/etc
3. 40g whey + 1C lowfat milk (has enough sugars to make it right)
4. 40g whey + rice cakes
5. 40g whey + 1/2C organic granola
6. 40g whey + 2 small containers of light-n-fit yogurt
1. 40g whey + 1/2C oats
2. 40g whey + 1/2C blueberries/blackberries/apples/etc
3. 40g whey + 1C lowfat milk (has enough sugars to make it right)
4. 40g whey + rice cakes
5. 40g whey + 1/2C organic granola
6. 40g whey + 2 small containers of light-n-fit yogurt
fitnessbyalex
Member
gatorade POWDER is okay if you like a faster acting carb pre workout. I prefer a complex carb meal about 1 hour pre workout to prevent blood sugar crashes mid-training. The gatorade POWDER contains dextrose. The RTD's use glucose-fructose syrup which is a fancy name for the oh-so-useless high fructose corn syrup. As an entrepreneur in the beverage industry myself, I will tell you that gatorade does NOT market its products towards athletes, rather their target consumer are kids and teenagers. (hence Gatorade's old AM formula - a replacement for every kids morning orange juice lol)...
-Alex
fitnessbyalex
Member
I agree with what Flaw is saying here assuming he is referring to the powdered DEXTROSE containing form. the HFCS RTD's are completely useless to an athlete in my opinion. A little inside scoop - they are soon re-formulating to use dextrose in their RTDs..shhh ;]
Pedialyte would be better for intra workout glucose/electrolyte replacement. I myself am not a huge fan of intra-workout nutrition and if anything would recommend something like a powerade zero with BCAA + Glutamine. I focus more on adequate pre-workout and post-workout nutrition. While working out let your body focus on that, and not digesting or processing any substantial nutrients. If you happen to like intra-workout glucose - or like FLAW said if you are in a prolonged athletic event, it could be quite useful but stick to polymers like dextrose or maltodextrin.
-Alex
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
Meal timing is key, and generally determines the "need" for intra-workout supplementation. The duration and intensity of your workout would be the next factor. I use BCAA's during my workouts when bulking, and use them post-workout when cutting, then follow up with whey or a whole food meal. Every BODY is different and experimentation in meal timing and macro balance is key.
Flaw
Well-known member
Gatorade did better when they came out with Accelerade which contained a 4:1 ration of carbs to protein but the problem is their NAME is the original formula and they aren't gonna stop giving that to athletes even if accelerade is scientifically better. Knowing what I know I sure wouldn't wanna go hours just sipping on gatorade alone. But my body wouldn't let me either being hypoglycemic. I'm not exactly sure what every athlete does as far as nutrition in between halfs, and periods though. This is where a powdered complex carbs can do wonders. Something like waxy maize during breaks and maybe powdered oats at half time with whey protein. Nothing too heavy to cause stomach issues.
If I was in charge of nutrition for a team or myself.. I'd wake up have my regular meals and then make sure my last meal is before 2 hours of playtime. Right before game time I might take a pre-workout mix. Maybe some bcaa's, glutamine, creatine but sugar free. After intense play and breaking a good sweat I'd start off sipping a sports drink to replenish hydration. Idealy I'd use accelerade here. I'd continue with this for the first half or half the game. At half time I'd sip on like some powdered oats and whey or waxy maize starch with whey. As much as I can stomach. Depending on my size and calorie requirements and how I'm feeling. Then into the 2 half or next half of the game I'd continue with accelerade regularly. Every chance I get a break. If the accelerade wasn't cutting it alone I'd throw some waxy maize in there with it during the game.
Flaw
Well-known member
I can't stand it when I see a child drinking a gatorade for no reason, not working out, chubby little kid sipping on gatorade. I always try to tell parents.. gatorades are for athletes only, is your child a athlete? They go no.. then why are they drinking gatorade? Answer: IDK. Well Look at the label. "see got as much sugar as a can of soda" " ohh but I thought they were healthy cause athletes use them" Well they serve a purpose and I explain that to them and tell them to stop buying their kids gatorade! When I was young though I used to pack gatorade with my lunch cause I thought it was somehow beneficial to me also. I was a fool at one time too.
Bionic
Well-known member
OK, let me disclaimer this by saying that I don't remember where I read the study. Sorry. It, basically, said that by eating just protein (slow-digesting) and fat, post w/o, that you extended the "anabolic window" and that GH output was maximized, fat burning extended and nutrient uptake prolonged. This was all shut down with the inclusion of carbs. Consuming carbs isn't the only way the body replenishes glycogen. My own utilization of this method seems to back this up. YMMV.
fitnessbyalex
Member
I agree. people are ignorant and clueless about their own health for the most part. I found myself utterly frustrated when strolling through a grocery store and watching the purchasing habits of 90% of the people. Its quite frankly disgusting.
-Alex
fitnessbyalex
Member
Its insulin that works inversely to GH production. A PWO insulin spike will blunt GH. I dont advocate sugary/high GI carbs for the purpose of an insulin spike pwo anyway so I do not worry much about the blunting of GH. Just my .02
** also the body needs amino acids to produce GH so amino acid/protein consumption will compliment this GH pulse post workout. Slow burning carbs shouldnt interfere much and if they do at all the interference is marginal compared to the benefit of PWO carb consumption IMO.
-Alex
Jurassic
Member
This debate will likely go on for a long time until somebody goes out and does a few very careful studies on the matter.
I would say go for carbs if you aren't carb sensitive, and fats if you are. If you take carbs post workout then have some fats in the meal after your post workout shake.
Carbs also lower cortisol levels which can be high after exercise, especially if you take in a lot of stims preworkout.
Higher doses of caffeine have been shown to increase testosterone during exercise by about ~50%
Personal preference?
I would say go for carbs if you aren't carb sensitive, and fats if you are. If you take carbs post workout then have some fats in the meal after your post workout shake.
Carbs also lower cortisol levels which can be high after exercise, especially if you take in a lot of stims preworkout.
Higher doses of caffeine have been shown to increase testosterone during exercise by about ~50%
Personal preference?
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
Wheres the evidence that shows carbs lower cortisol?
Where is the info on caffeine increasing T levels during exercise?
Not trying to be rude here, just curious...
Jurassic
Member
Caffeine and exercise:
warriorfx.com
/2008/03/caffeine-enhances-testosterone-during-exercise/
I found another article (below) that sites a study showing that caffeine LOWERS Free test, but the above study was purely for DURING exercise, as I believe it said that T levels decreased a bit before exercise.
Fitflex.com
/caffeinetestosterone.html
Somebody on a forum sited a study that found that carbohydrates could cut cortisol levels by about 93%, but I can't find the study
somebody could probably look for it, which would be great.
I'm also in no way saying that these sources are end all 100% accurate.
I can't post links, so, you'll have to copy and past the sections together in the address bar
warriorfx.com
/2008/03/caffeine-enhances-testosterone-during-exercise/
I found another article (below) that sites a study showing that caffeine LOWERS Free test, but the above study was purely for DURING exercise, as I believe it said that T levels decreased a bit before exercise.
Fitflex.com
/caffeinetestosterone.html
Somebody on a forum sited a study that found that carbohydrates could cut cortisol levels by about 93%, but I can't find the study
somebody could probably look for it, which would be great. I'm also in no way saying that these sources are end all 100% accurate.
I can't post links, so, you'll have to copy and past the sections together in the address bar
wearedbleedblue
Active member
Does anyone read the Alan Aragon Research review? He went over this topic in one of them. Basically research is showing carbs aren't necessary PWO. Also, the inclusion of fats in a PWO meal will still replenish glycogen over 24hours just as well as a low fiber/low fat/high carb meal will.
As its been said over and over again, as long as the total macros are met for the day and its all pretty decent food, there is no need to worry about PWO nutrition. Obviously waiting a few hours to eat would make it harder but that would also make it harder to meet the total numbers.
As its been said over and over again, as long as the total macros are met for the day and its all pretty decent food, there is no need to worry about PWO nutrition. Obviously waiting a few hours to eat would make it harder but that would also make it harder to meet the total numbers.
Jurassic
Member
I think that a carb rich postworkout meal when bulking/muscle building and a slower digesting protein with healthy fats when cutting would be best based on the information people have provided in this thread.
Also what do people think about a blend of proteins post workout? instead of just whey for example a product like Myofusion or Whey+Milk.
Also what do people think about a blend of proteins post workout? instead of just whey for example a product like Myofusion or Whey+Milk.
mrlargecalves
Member
i take gatorade(powder) post workout mixed w/bcaa, beta alanine, and creatine. then whey 15 min later, then meal w/complex carbs an hour and half later. this seems to work well without fat gain. ive always been told u need quick carbs to replenish glycogen post workout.
wearedbleedblue
Active member
Glycogen yes, but glycogen replenishment doesn't directly translate to amount of muscle built. For endurance athletes, or athletes in general that must train hard day in and day out, carbs shouldn't be an issue in their diet.
Bnatural
AX Product Specialist
Generally, our bodies are primed to absorb nutrients post-workout, and with your body in a depleted state, it tends to saturate with the insulin spike, so for the carb junkies, you could toss back carbs during this time, but your body can restore the depleted glycogen over a certain period of time, as long as you eat
fitnessbyalex
Member
Logically, carbs produce insulin which is highly anabolic/anti-catabolic thus negating some of the unwanted effects of cortisol. I have never heard of caffeine improving testosterone output during training. Without the evidence I would have to find this hard to believe by this simple logic - caffeine constricts blood flow systemically - even to the testes.... whereas arginine does the opposite. Not saying blood flow is a direct function of testosterone output but at least sexually speaking we all know just how annoying stimulants can be in this regard
wearedbleedblue
Active member
Logically, carbs produce insulin which is highly anabolic/anti-catabolic thus negating some of the unwanted effects of cortisol. I have never heard of caffeine improving testosterone output during training. Without the evidence I would have to find this hard to believe by this simple logic - caffeine constricts blood flow systemically - even to the testes.... whereas arginine does the opposite. Not saying blood flow is a direct function of testosterone output but at least sexually speaking we all know just how annoying stimulants can be in this regard
Invalid Link Removed
Did increase test but increased cortisol at a greater rate. Caffeine has been shown numerous times to be ergogenic. It will increase performance. Testosterone isn't the only thing that has to do with performance, in the gym or in the bedroom.
fitnessbyalex
Member
correct. caffeine without a doubt improves performance, however even if by somehow slightly amplifying testosterone output (unlikely), this is not the main mechanism by which caffeine aids in athletic performance.
-Alex
wearedbleedblue
Active member
Agreed.
msucurt
Well-known member
I teach high school chemistry and I tell my kids this verbatim. Thank you! I do a electrolyte demonstration with Nacl / KCl / gatorade, where I dissolve electrolytes in an aqueous solution and basically make a light bulb come on because of the (+) and (-) ions that dissolve into the solution. Whereas the non-electrolytes will not conduct. Basically, i pour gatorade in a beaker and it will slightly light up a bulb....mainly because of the sucrose that blocks the ion bridge.
I then go on to explain to them about gatorade, and how it really isnt good for you unless you are doing rigourous exercise and sweating electrolytes out. Drinking it just for the heck of it is not good at all!!!
I then go on to explain to them about gatorade, and how it really isnt good for you unless you are doing rigourous exercise and sweating electrolytes out. Drinking it just for the heck of it is not good at all!!!