Possible "safe-ish" cycle ideas

like Jstrong said id stay away from the frontload.

now with the post cycle therapy i like it i used both SERMs my last cycle but ran out of clomid.

150mg clo 120mg tore
100mg clo 90mg tore
50mg clo 60-90mg tore
60mg tore
60mg tore
30mg tore

something along those lines i would say. You would/should recover quick with that PCT but if you plan on using a 6 week PCT i say stick with it no matter what. Even if you think you are ok early.

I always played with the thought of using HCG during the last few weeks of the cycle. Alot say all cycle or post cycle...i say if you want you could run all cycle but i think with a strong PCT, a vial of hcg would do good at starting them up before PCT.
 
this is true, I am a strong believer (not from experience, but rather from a research and scientific point of view.) that using HCG at about 250iu 2-3 times a week as needed is a a great way to lessen the severity of the shutdown, and make for a smoother recovery post cycle. I think it depends on the individual from experience whether they like to frontload HCG post cycle or use it as a sorto of On cycle therapy tool. either way i would say that the less drastic of a hormonal change, and the more balanced the system is, the less sides and negative effects there are (usually)

Thank you for the PCT outline. i like the way it looks. Dr D mentioned that it would be good to run say 2 weeks of tor followed by 3 weeks of clomid. i am discussing with him the reasoning for his opinion and i will share his insight with you all when he lets me know.

Travis, yes i have decided to use HCG on cycle. I think it will suit me well.

just a reminder, I really appreciate everyones help.
 
I thought along those lines too. When Dr.D PM's me back ill request that he checks out the ideas on this thread
 
pistonpump said:
i would think the clomid would be used first followed by the torem. It would be nice for Dr. D to chime in here.
Click to expand...

Dr.D: You could stack them, but I think 2wks of tor followed by 3wks of Clomid would work best:

wk1: Tor 90mg (120 the first 3 nights only)
wk2: Tor 60mg
wk3: Clomid 50mg or Nolva 40mg
wk4: Clomid 50-25mg or Nolva 20mg
wk5: Clomid 25mg or Nolva 10mg

Thank you for you kind words. You guys are like family to me.

ME: That looks like a good plan. As i can see you are in favor of only using one serm at a time. Is due to the emotional and hormonal imbalances that too low of estrogen can create?

[My thoughts were (since ive read often) that clomid has a reputation of having a strong affinity for the HP, therfore creating an increase in LH, whereas nolva has a stronger affinity for breast tissue so it is used commonly for gyn. THis is why i figured since Tor has is a great overall Serm with low toxicity and sides, that Tor with Clomid stacked and tapered would be a good idea.]

that is just why i was assuming it would be good to frontload with a little bit of clomid too for the LH boost immediatly post cycle.

I am not an expert and do not know how these chemicals would interact so I what do you think?

Dr.D: No, Clomid is only used for economy here. Tor works far more rapidly that any other SERM. In two weeks, you may not even need the Clomid, that's now good Tor is. It's the last SERM you'll ever use. You'll see!


This is the conversation I had with Dr. D for those who were interested. These are his thoughts....^^
 
cool, so basically he is advising on teh torm first because it is overall better. Then i guess the clomid is there to cut costs...

hmmm... i may have to change my PCT plans.
 
yea thats what he feels. I would trust Dr.D with my life, but doesnt it seem that those dosages are too little after a 12-14 week injectable with rather suppressive compounds.. Price isnt as much of a concern to me, Id rather fork out a few extra bucks and use Tor and not worry about economy...but I wonder what Dr.D would say about the taper you recommended:

150mg clo 120mg tore
100mg clo 90mg tore
50mg clo 60-90mg tore
60mg tore
60mg tore
30mg tore
 
That is pretty interesting. Clomid seems more tried and true from user feedback but there is also good feedback on torm. Just hasnt been around long. I am pretty sure that IGX or whatever company developed it though. They seem to be fairly cutting edge.
 
I have no doubt that Torem works. Ive used it and it seemed to work great, although It was the first SERM I tried so I had nothing to compare it to. I was just asking about this specific type of cycle...and what taper arrangement would be the most effecient as far as maximum effectivness is concerned.
 
pudzian2 said:
yea thats what he feels. I would trust Dr.D with my life, but doesnt it seem that those dosages are too little after a 12-14 week injectable with rather suppressive compounds.. Price isnt as much of a concern to me, Id rather fork out a few extra bucks and use Tor and not worry about economy...but I wonder what Dr.D would say about the taper you recommended:

150mg clo 120mg tore
100mg clo 90mg tore
50mg clo 60-90mg tore
60mg tore
60mg tore
30mg tore
Click to expand...
He'd probably say it is too much in the first week or two....im guessing. Maybe drop one of them down slightly the first week or two....?:think:
 
This is what Dr.D said:

No, there really is no proper ratio once you start mixing and matching, it gets all compounded and hard to say, that's why I like them separate. The Clomid starts accumulating estrogenic metabolites after about 2 weeks, that's why then is a good time to switch so you get the best of Clomid with no sides. Also, SERMs are tough on the liver, Piston's plan would likely work well but it looked like ver high doses and you are asking for emotional disturbance too on that much Clomid and Tor!

I agree with what he's saying. Yes maybe dropping one of the two doses down during the first two weeks would make it better but Like Dr.D suggested it may even be best just to use one SERM at a time...not sure whether I'll go clomid first and then Tor or Tor first and then Clomid...Hmmm:think:
 
thanks for sharing that. Makes me rethink that. Quite possibly he is right with the Tore first, i say this only because of the emotional sides people get from Clomid....might not be the best thing to deal with when you just come off cycle.
 
I wonder if its best to just stick with Tor period, I mean Dr.D and others alike rave that its the best\fastest\safest overall SERM so if thats the case then why even use clomid? If the only argument for using clomid is that its cheaper, then hell I would rather pay a few extra bucks and use the Best possible SERM for the occasion.
 
yea so did I but I'm going to trust Dr. D. I may use the first 3 nights or the whole first week with higher doses of both clomid and Tor just for the initial bang and then just settle in with the Tor taper
 
To all those who have followed thus far:

I have compiled a journal which outlines everything about my cycle in an organized and finalized way. If you have followed this cycle plan so far or if you are just interested, I have attached a 30 page word document that pretty much incorporates everything. Take a breeze through it if you wish....COMMENTS\CRITIQUES ARE WELCOME!

NOTES:

IGF-1 dosages\ dosage patterns are still up in the air, I am discussing this with others in a different thread to which I will post a URL\link\Name.

If you have suggestions comments or questions either ask them here or PM me.
 

Attachments

pudzian2 said:
To all those who have followed thus far:

I have compiled a journal which outlines everything about my cycle in an organized and finalized way. If you have followed this cycle plan so far or if you are just interested, I have attached a 30 page word document that pretty much incorporates everything. Take a breeze through it if you wish....COMMENTS\CRITIQUES ARE WELCOME!

NOTES:

IGF-1 dosages\ dosage patterns are still up in the air, I am discussing this with others in a different thread to which I will post a URL\link\Name.

If you have suggestions comments or questions either ask them here or PM me.
Click to expand...

Looks very well thought out obviously. I would run the epi at, at least 30mg to really get going. Even since the earlier posts in this thread I think your better off going with just the Torem for pct. I dont think you need the clomid if you using the HCG throughout cycle.

I havent used Act Extreme or really read any feedback but I think AI's Post Cycle Support, or Primordial Performances Derm Sustain would be a better choice if your looking to have some resveratrol in your PCT.

I like the advanced 5x5 split better than that basic one fwiw.
 
Travis said:
Looks very well thought out obviously. I would run the epi at, at least 30mg to really get going. Even since the earlier posts in this thread I think your better off going with just the Torem for post cycle therapy. I dont think you need the clomid if you using the HCG throughout cycle.

I havent used Act Extreme or really read any feedback but I think AI's Post Cycle Support, or Primordial Performances Derm Sustain would be a better choice if your looking to have some resveratrol in your PCT.

I like the advanced 5x5 split better than that basic one fwiw.
Click to expand...

Im not sure if there is a typo with this phrase but I'm not sure what you mean, "but I think AI's Post Cycle Support".. could you just clarify...thanks man

so you think that replacing the Activate Extreme with The Derm Sustain would be best? at full dose Every day? (I like the idea of reserveratrol-----especially bio-available reserveratrol.)

as for the clomid...I like to do things by feel. If i feel like I need the boost Post cycle then I may just run it the first 3 nights or so. maybe not at 150mg but still. Plus If I run out of Torem at the end of the taper I can fill in the last week or so with Clomid for economy purposes.
 
pudzian2 said:
Im not sure if there is a typo with this phrase but I'm not sure what you mean, "but I think AI's Post Cycle Support".. could you just clarify...thanks man

so you think that replacing the Activate Extreme with The Derm Sustain would be best? at full dose Every day? (I like the idea of reserveratrol-----especially bio-available reserveratrol.)

as for the clomid...I like to do things by feel. If i feel like I need the boost Post cycle then I may just run it the first 3 nights or so. maybe not at 150mg but still. Plus If I run out of Torem at the end of the taper I can fill in the last week or so with Clomid for economy purposes.
Click to expand...

Yep AI is coming out with a new product called POST cycle support:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/74333-post-cycle-support.html

Yeah stacking a SERM with Sustain has some very good feedback. Check out this thread for a lil more info:

Invalid Link Removed

Yeah, I like your thoughts on the clomid. I also now feel like a link posting whore... :think:
 
Travis said:
Yep AI is coming out with a new product called POST cycle support:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/74333-post-cycle-support.html

Yeah stacking a SERM with Sustain has some very good feedback. Check out this thread for a lil more info:

Invalid Link Removed

Yeah, I like your thoughts on the clomid. I also now feel like a link posting whore... :think:
Click to expand...


haha its all good. I have arimidex becuase I think it is a better overall choice for On cycle AI support. Although aromasin is a little nicer in the sides department, For a cycle with Test and EQ I dont wanna kill estrogen completely. Anyway... The point is..

Do you think I should start with using like 20-40mg Raloxifene\night or like .25-.5mg of adex...

If cholesterol will be affected in a potentially negative way while on cycle especially using a heavy androgen like Test, and AI's (most at least) are known to have potential negative effects on hte lipids, then it makes me think small doses of Ralox are best to start with and then incorporate or replace it with the adex as\if needed.

From my research i remember reading that raloxifene increases the risk of clotting. Not sure what dosage, circumstance, or length of usage this was concluded upon but still..have you heard anything like that.?
 
pudzian2 said:
haha its all good. I have arimidex becuase I think it is a better overall choice for On cycle AI support. Although aromasin is a little nicer in the sides department, For a cycle with Test and EQ I dont wanna kill estrogen completely. Anyway... The point is..

Do you think I should start with using like 20-40mg Raloxifene\night or like .25-.5mg of adex...

If cholesterol will be affected in a potentially negative way while on cycle especially using a heavy androgen like Test, and AI's (most at least) are known to have potential negative effects on hte lipids, then it makes me think small doses of Ralox are best to start with and then incorporate or replace it with the adex as\if needed.

From my research i remember reading that raloxifene increases the risk of clotting. Not sure what dosage, circumstance, or length of usage this was concluded upon but still..have you heard anything like that.?
Click to expand...

I dont have a strong understanding of AI's on cycle so I'm gonna let some more knowledgable people here at AM weigh in on that later (piston I think knows this stuff).

On Ralox yeah I know it does increase the chance for clotting. I'm assuming because it raises RBC levels but not certain on that. I know it also increases bone density which is obviously a good side.

Some of this stuff is gettin a lil outta my league....so hopefully others will weigh in here. But great questions! Curious myself on these.
 
Travis said:
I dont have a strong understanding of AI's on cycle so I'm gonna let some more knowledgable people here at AM weigh in on that later (piston I think knows this stuff).

On Ralox yeah I know it does increase the chance for clotting. I'm assuming because it raises RBC levels but not certain on that. I know it also increases bone density which is obviously a good side.

Some of this stuff is gettin a lil outta my league....so hopefully others will weigh in here. But great questions! Curious myself on these.
Click to expand...

Calling PISTONPUMP and other knowledgeable bros here on AM:

1.) I would definitely like to hear whether the increased clotting risk at a dose of ralox equivalent to using 10-20mg Nolva (what would that dose be anyway..??) On cycle for estro\gyno is a major concern while using drugs like EQ especially which is known to up RBC by a lot.

2.) the affects of AI's on cholesterol while ON cycle
3.) AI vs. SERM for On cycle estro support.
 
can you explain your low dose nolva+ derm sustain post cycle therapy... Did you frontloadtaper the Nolva and use full dose sustain ED?


Quote:
Originally Posted by pudzian2

ON CYCLE CHOLESTEROL\BLOOD PRESSURE MANAGEMENT

Using this cycle as a reference: (see my thread for full details: "Possible Safe-ish cycle ideas."

1-12 test e @ 750mg
1-12 eq @ 600mg
1-5/6 epi @ 40mg
13-15 epi @ 40mg
16 on post cycle therapy.


For people who have run similar cycles (at least with a 750mg-ish base of test) for a long span of time (16 weeks or so)

1.) how was your cholesterol affected?
2.) what did you do to monitor\control the issue

3.)how was your blood pressure affected
4.)what did you do to monitor\control the issue
you need to cut that EQ out a week earlier or extend the testosterone week later in order for the undecylenate and enanthate ester to clear the body at the same time.

the way you have it set up right now, you would still have a week of EQ clearance time left before you could start post cycle therapy...after the test E cleared.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pudzian2
can you explain your low dose nolva+ derm sustain post cycle therapy... Did you frontloadtaper the Nolva and use full dose sustain ED?
I actually havent started this post cycle therapy yet. I will in about 3 days or so (it will be logged). But the plan is to run 10mg Nolva for the first week with full dose Sustain, then maybe 5mg Nolva while continuing to use Sustain until the bottle is gone.

There are other logs from guys doing similar places (not here at AM from what i know) but they have all recovered quite well. In fact I think there is at least one log out there in which no SERM was used (only sustain) with good results. This discussion led me to the protocol though:

Dermacrine Sustain vs SERM's



Quote:
Originally Posted by jomi822
you need to cut that EQ out a week earlier or extend the testosterone week later in order for the undecylenate and enanthate ester to clear the body at the same time.

the way you have it set up right now, you would still have a week of EQ clearance time left before you could start post cycle therapy...after the test E cleared.
Ah i see.. well It just so happens that the EQ ester is a week longer than the Enanthate ester so cutting them both out after week 12 would leave me clear by the end of week 14? or did I understand you totally wrong.....

could you just adjust the weeks on the little outline I posted so that I follow you 100%..thanks bro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis
I actually havent started this post cycle therapy yet. I will in about 3 days or so (it will be logged). But the plan is to run 10mg Nolva for the first week with full dose Sustain, then maybe 5mg Nolva while continuing to use Sustain until the bottle is gone.

There are other logs from guys doing similar places (not here at AM from what i know) but they have all recovered quite well. In fact I think there is at least one log out there in which no SERM was used (only sustain) with good results. This discussion led me to the protocol though:

Dermacrine Sustain vs SERM's
This has me thinking. Maybe cut the total SERM dosages by 1\3 and eventually to 1\2 of which I had originally planned and incorporate Sustain.... This wouldnt leave much space for an AI though..


Yes i know the above few posts arent completely cholesterol related...but they are still relevant\interesting



CAN WE CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION IN THIS THREAD>>
 
Hey Pudzian2,

You said to move posts from the other thread over here:

Here you go a product by the name of Cycle Support.

and it even has blood tests to show lowered blood pressure and lowered cholesterol after using Cycle Support

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolic-innovations/53347-cycle-support-life.html


Invalid Link Removed

Dosing schedule

Start 1 week before you start your cycle at 2 servings per day. Continue through your cycle and post cycle therapy.


For your post cycle you may want to take a look at POST Cycle Support at 2 servings per day bottle lasts 1 month

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/74333-post-cycle-support.html

CROWLER
 
hey guys I would like to re-address the issue that jomi brought up. he said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jomi822
you need to cut that EQ out a week earlier or extend the testosterone week later in order for the undecylenate and enanthate ester to clear the body at the same time.

the way you have it set up right now, you would still have a week of EQ clearance time left before you could start post cycle therapy...after the test E cleared.

can someone assist me in making the necessary adjustments?:

1-12 test e @ 750mg
1-12 eq @ 600mg
1-5/6 epi @ 40mg
13-15 epi @ 40mg
16 on post cycle therapy.

I thought the enanthate ester would take 1 week to clear and the undeclynate would take 2....(this is why the epi is used during weeks 13-15 to keep gains goin)
 
Travis said:
I dont have a strong understanding of AI's on cycle so I'm gonna let some more knowledgable people here at AM weigh in on that later (piston I think knows this stuff).

On Ralox yeah I know it does increase the chance for clotting. I'm assuming because it raises RBC levels but not certain on that. I know it also increases bone density which is obviously a good side.

Some of this stuff is gettin a lil outta my league....so hopefully others will weigh in here. But great questions! Curious myself on these.
Click to expand...

Im in the same boat, but I'd been looking at running Test EQ some day down the road and was going to use Ralo, but had the same concerns you had Travis. Aromasin looks the best dosed EOD or E3D imo.

Stop the EQ injections one week before you stop the Test injections easy enough
 
1-13 test e @ 750mg
1-12 eq @ 600mg
1-5/6 epi @ 40mg
13/14-15 epi @ 40mg
16 on post cycle therapy.

hows that look?

DW: I think Im going to run ralox while ON and if necessary talk to someone like DR.D or Pistonpump about safely incorporating adex. I think at small doses for gyno\estro control any negative side effect associated with ralox should be minimal if even present. Still trying to figure out what dose of 10-20mg nolva would look like in terms of RALOX. anyone know the equivalent.?
 
shorter by 2 weeks. Say if your normal cycle calls for 600mg eq, for the first 2 weeks do 1200mg, this should jump start the cycle. And if you were using dbols, eq/tes/dbol all would be working at the same time. Youd have some serious gains in the first 4 weeks. Vets, correct me if Im wrong.
 
BUMP..especially for a tried and true dose of ralox while ON. I would rather use a SERM like ralox than an AI while ON..(unless I bloat too much of course)
 
pudzian2 said:
BUMP..especially for a tried and true dose of ralox while ON. I would rather use a SERM like ralox than an AI while ON..(unless I bloat too much of course)
Click to expand...

You should always limit your exposure to synthetic SERMs as much as possible, even with the newer and “safer” SERMs tormefene and raloxifene. If you have to run a SERM during your cycle to avoid side-effects, then reconsider your choice of anabolic steroids’s.

Tormefene is safer than nolva or clomid as far as the liver goes, but since it is an analog of tamoxifen it is just a potentially geno toxic. Raloxifene is even safer than Tormefene, except that it has a higher incidence of causing thromboembolism. (blood clotting) So, either way you go you have potential side effects and toxicity to deal with. Its funny that clomid is considered to be the most effective, Id say its probably the least effective out of all the synthetic SERMs just for the fact that its half estrogen and half anti-estrogen. (The drug clomid is actually a combination of zuclomiphene and enclomiphene)

As far as your original questions, I think you should run a steroidal AI during cycle (ie. exemestane, formestane) instead of a non-suicidal aromatase inhibitor such as Arimidex or Letro. These anti-estrogens are much more susceptible to cause estrogenic rebound once you stop taking then, whereas a suicidal steroidal AI such as exemestane will control estrogen levels even after you quit using it. (no need to use more than 10mg/day exemestane with your cycle though)

For post cycle therapy, Id say Tormefene or Raloxifene can both be equally effective. However, Raloxifene must be dosed about 5x higher than tormefene because it has much lower bioavailability (and lower liver toxicity) so it will probably cost 5x as much… so its up to you.

Whatever synthetic SERM you choose, Dermacrine Sustain would be a great addition to your PCT. We believe Sustain is just as effective as any synthetic SERM available, but guys choose to run both just to be safe. If your using Derma Sustain you will be able to reduce the dosage on your SERM too. 25mg/day clomid or 10mg/day nolva or 10mg/tormefene or 50mg/day raloxifene are the ideal doses for maximal testosterone stimulation based on my research.

Good luck.

-Pp
 
Primordial Perf said:
You should always limit your exposure to synthetic SERMs as much as possible, even with the newer and “safer” SERMs tormefene and raloxifene. If you have to run a SERM during your cycle to avoid side-effects, then reconsider your choice of anabolic steroids’s.

Tormefene is safer than nolva or clomid as far as the liver goes, but since it is an analog of tamoxifen it is just a potentially geno toxic. Raloxifene is even safer than Tormefene, except that it has a higher incidence of causing thromboembolism. (blood clotting) So, either way you go you have potential side effects and toxicity to deal with. Its funny that clomid is considered to be the most effective, Id say its probably the least effective out of all the synthetic SERMs just for the fact that its half estrogen and half anti-estrogen. (The drug clomid is actually a combination of zuclomiphene and enclomiphene)

As far as your original questions, I think you should run a steroidal AI during cycle (ie. exemestane, formestane) instead of a non-suicidal aromatase inhibitor such as Arimidex or Letro. These anti-estrogens are much more susceptible to cause estrogenic rebound once you stop taking then, whereas a suicidal steroidal AI such as exemestane will control estrogen levels even after you quit using it. (no need to use more than 10mg/day exemestane with your cycle though)

For post cycle therapy, Id say Tormefene or Raloxifene can both be equally effective. However, Raloxifene must be dosed about 5x higher than tormefene because it has much lower bioavailability (and lower liver toxicity) so it will probably cost 5x as much… so its up to you.

Whatever synthetic SERM you choose, Dermacrine Sustain would be a great addition to your post cycle therapy. We believe Sustain is just as effective as any synthetic SERM available, but guys choose to run both just to be safe. If your using Derma Sustain you will be able to reduce the dosage on your SERM too. 25mg/day clomid or 10mg/day nolva or 10mg/tormefene or 50mg/day raloxifene are the ideal doses for maximal testosterone stimulation based on my research.

Good luck.

-Pp
Click to expand...

Hey Pp. THanks alot for all of your information. I was tossing and turning between using raloxifene ON cycle vs aromasin or adex. Unfortunately I have adex on the way and raloxifene on hand. Health is of utmost concern so I may consider just forking out the cash for the aromasin. I am definately planning on using Dermacrine Sustain during post cycle therapy..and Im shocked at how small a dose of synthetic SERM is actually necessary when used in conjunction. to be "safe" would you highly discourage taking a higher dose of SERM with dermacrine sustain despite the SERM side effects. I havent found toremifene sides to be that bad.

Is the clotting issue really a concern with people who use ralox at a minimal dose ON cycle for gyno and estrogen control? why is a steroidal AI like aromasin favored over such a dose of ralox when AI's can mess up the already altered lipid profile of a steroid user, and have the potential to be liver toxic as well?

Also it appears that you discourage the Use of an AI during PCT...from a biological standpoint why is this so?
 
pudzian2 said:
Hey Pp. THanks alot for all of your information. I was tossing and turning between using raloxifene ON cycle vs aromasin or adex. Unfortunately I have adex on the way and raloxifene on hand. Health is of utmost concern so I may consider just forking out the cash for the aromasin. I am definately planning on using Dermacrine Sustain during post cycle therapy..and Im shocked at how small a dose of synthetic SERM is actually necessary when used in conjunction. to be "safe" would you highly discourage taking a higher dose of SERM with dermacrine sustain despite the SERM side effects. I havent found toremifene sides to be that bad.

Is the clotting issue really a concern with people who use ralox at a minimal dose ON cycle for gyno and estrogen control? why is a steroidal AI like aromasin favored over such a dose of ralox when AI's can mess up the already altered lipid profile of a steroid user, and have the potential to be liver toxic as well?

Also it appears that you discourage the Use of an AI during post cycle therapy...from a biological standpoint why is this so?
Click to expand...


In retrospect you may not even need an AI. (I forget what your final cycle choice was) In fact I rarely suggest the use of an AI, but if one *must* take one then I encourage the use of steroidal AI’s on cycle because they can reduce estrogen just as effectively as arimidex or letrozol but without the post-use rebound. I don’t like the use of SERM’s in general as they are inherently toxic and the full toxicity in humans is still beyond the current scope of science. Consider the fact that 3rd generations SERMs are now being created such as bazedoxifene, arzoxifene, and lasofoxifene. (that should tell you something about how toxic 1st and 2nd generation SERM’s really are)

The real risk of blood clotting will be more of a concern if your pre-disposed to it, and only your Doc can tell you about that. Its enough of a concern among researchers for them to suggest limiting the use of SERM’s as much as possible in clinical practice. (mentioned in several cohort studies)

The small dose of SERM I suggest (except ralox) is actually the dose that consistently showed to have the highest testosterone/fertility boosting properties in the 200+ studies I’ve reviewed. The 100-150mg doses of clomid you see prescribed on the forums today are a direct result of the “more is better” attitude, and the fact that these drugs are dirt cheap.

I discourage AI use post cycle because 99% of cycles today either use a non-aromatizing AAS or an estrogenic AAS with the use of an AI. So at the end of a cycle estrogen is rarely a problem. Plus, if estrogen is pushed too low, for too long, it can actually hurt libido and overall recovery. (Im sure you know)

-Pp
 
Primordial Perf said:
In retrospect you may not even need an AI. (I forget what your final cycle choice was) In fact I rarely suggest the use of an AI, but if one *must* take one then I encourage the use of steroidal AI’s on cycle because they can reduce estrogen just as effectively as arimidex or letrozol but without the post-use rebound. I don’t like the use of SERM’s in general as they are inherently toxic and the full toxicity in humans is still beyond the current scope of science. Consider the fact that 3rd generations SERMs are now being created such as bazedoxifene, arzoxifene, and lasofoxifene. (that should tell you something about how toxic 1st and 2nd generation SERM’s really are)

The real risk of blood clotting will be more of a concern if your pre-disposed to it, and only your Doc can tell you about that. Its enough of a concern among researchers for them to suggest limiting the use of SERM’s as much as possible in clinical practice. (mentioned in several cohort studies)

The small dose of SERM I suggest (except ralox) is actually the dose that consistently showed to have the highest testosterone/fertility boosting properties in the 200+ studies I’ve reviewed. The 100-150mg doses of clomid you see prescribed on the forums today are a direct result of the “more is better” attitude, and the fact that these drugs are dirt cheap.

I discourage AI use post cycle because 99% of cycles today either use a non-aromatizing anabolic steroids or an estrogenic AAS with the use of an AI. So at the end of a cycle estrogen is rarely a problem. Plus, if estrogen is pushed too low, for too long, it can actually hurt libido and overall recovery. (Im sure you know)

-Pp
Click to expand...

Your wealth of knowledge is very helpful to me. I think I what I will do is have aromasin on hand and start using it maybe week 3-5 or so. I will keep ralox on hand as well if gyno really becomes a problem.

My final cycle plan looks like this:

1-13 test e @ 750mg
1-12 eq @ 600mg
1-5/6 epi @ 40mg
13/14-15 epi @ 40mg
16 on post cycle therapy.

Since I have test in there which is a strong androgen and aromatizes I do feel I will need some form of ON cycle estrogen support and I would just like to have a plan in case I feel that I am bloating or getting gyno flare ups.

If the relative toxicity of epistane (at LH boosting dose like 10mg EOD) is less than that of raloxifene then what about using that EOD on cycle? it has anti-gyno and AI properties and its anabolic. I know that I am kicking off with it but after that maybe I can just lower the dose to 10mg or so EOD.....thats An idea.


I was playing with the idea of using such a plan: epistane at 10mg or so EOD or E3D during PCT for the above noted benefits it has.

What are your thoughts?
 
pudzian2 said:
Your wealth of knowledge is very helpful to me. I think I what I will do is have aromasin on hand and start using it maybe week 3-5 or so. I will keep ralox on hand as well if gyno really becomes a problem.

My final cycle plan looks like this:

1-13 test e @ 750mg
1-12 eq @ 600mg
1-5/6 epi @ 40mg
13/14-15 epi @ 40mg
16 on post cycle therapy.

Since I have test in there which is a strong androgen and aromatizes I do feel I will need some form of ON cycle estrogen support and I would just like to have a plan in case I feel that I am bloating or getting gyno flare ups.

If the relative toxicity of epistane (at LH boosting dose like 10mg EOD) is less than that of raloxifene then what about using that EOD on cycle? it has anti-gyno and AI properties and its anabolic. I know that I am kicking off with it but after that maybe I can just lower the dose to 10mg or so EOD.....thats An idea.


I was playing with the idea of using such a plan: epistane at 10mg or so EOD or E3D during post cycle therapy for the above noted benefits it has.

What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...


I honestly haven’t read much material on epistane, so I don’t know how toxic it may be, or how powerful of an AI it really is.

But I will tell you one thing…

A non-aromatizing AAS stacked with an aromatizing AAS is a great idea for reducing side effects. For instance, those that may have estrogenic problems while using 500mg/Test, wont have problems anymore if they stack it with 500mg/masteron.

The DHT derived steroids especially will help prevent the estrogenic sides because DHT itself will bind to the estrogen receptor to block estrogens effects. This *may* be the case with epistane, being that is a non-aromatizing steroid.

As I tell most guys – If you have to use a SERM during your cycle, then your cycle needs to be planned better. Perhaps lower the dose of T, or switch out the EQ for Primo or Masteron.

I would not run Epistane for PCT though, just as I would not run 6-oxo, or any of the other available pro-hormone/steroid products on the market for PCT. Remember, these are steroids that can limit natural T production at the hypothalamus. If you go into PCT with low/normal estrogen level a steroidal AI will not help recovery any further.

-Pp
 
Primordial Perf said:
I honestly haven’t read much material on epistane, so I don’t know how toxic it may be, or how powerful of an AI it really is.

But I will tell you one thing…

A non-aromatizing anabolic steroids stacked with an aromatizing anabolic steroids is a great idea for reducing side effects. For instance, those that may have estrogenic problems while using 500mg/Test, wont have problems anymore if they stack it with 500mg/masteron.

The DHT derived steroids especially will help prevent the estrogenic sides because DHT itself will bind to the estrogen receptor to block estrogens effects. This *may* be the case with epistane, being that is a non-aromatizing steroid.

As I tell most guys – If you have to use a SERM during your cycle, then your cycle needs to be planned better. Perhaps lower the dose of T, or switch out the EQ for Primo or Masteron.

I would not run Epistane for post cycle therapy though, just as I would not run 6-oxo, or any of the other available pro-hormone/steroid products on the market for post cycle therapy. Remember, these are steroids that can limit natural T production at the hypothalamus. If you go into PCT with low/normal estrogen level a steroidal AI will not help recovery any further.

-Pp
Click to expand...

This is true, I have read that the initial dose of Epistane at about 10mg gives an LH boost and exhibits mild AI benefits but of course there arent any clinical trials proving so or to what degree. i will not take that risk. Primo will be in my next cycle but for this one, As a lean bulker I am still going to use Test. I doubt anything can really beat it as a mass builder and alot of people use it for a base. EQ has a low rate of aromatization so Im not worried about that but if using it with about 600-750mg test than I think there may be the possibility of an estrogen issue.

what do you think would be best for my particular situation? possibly running aromasin at 12.5-15mg EOD or so if around week 3-5 I get bloated gyno issues. and if that doesnt help then I may either up the dose a bit or incorporate a minimal dose of Ralox..

PCT: original plan:::

Toremifene: 120, 90, 90, 60, 60 , 30, 30 (if needed-doubt it)
Hyperdrol x2: starting week 3: half dose EOD
Activate Extreme: Full Dose
IGF-1: 40-60mcg PWO bi-Lat IM injection week 1-4 of PCT

OR after your previous suggestion:
NEW TENTATIVE PLAN:

PCT#2:

Cut the SERM doses by ___% starting week 19 and incorporate Dermacrine Sustain (this would replace using activate extreme and an AI during PCT possibly.)

• 25mg/day clomid or
• 10mg/day nolva or
• 10mg/tormefene or
• 50mg/day raloxifene

--the ideal doses for maximal testosterone stimulation based on my research.
ONE OF THE ABOVE SERM DOSES^^ would be used in conjuction with Dermacrine Sustain
 
pudzian2 said:
This is true, I have read that the initial dose of Epistane at about 10mg gives an LH boost and exhibits mild AI benefits but of course there arent any clinical trials proving so or to what degree. i will not take that risk. Primo will be in my next cycle but for this one, As a lean bulker I am still going to use Test. I doubt anything can really beat it as a mass builder and alot of people use it for a base. EQ has a low rate of aromatization so Im not worried about that but if using it with about 600-750mg test than I think there may be the possibility of an estrogen issue.

what do you think would be best for my particular situation? possibly running aromasin at 12.5-15mg EOD or so if around week 3-5 I get bloated gyno issues. and if that doesnt help then I may either up the dose a bit or incorporate a minimal dose of Ralox..

post cycle therapy: original plan:::

Toremifene: 120, 90, 90, 60, 60 , 30, 30 (if needed-doubt it)
Hyperdrol x2: starting week 3: half dose EOD
Activate Extreme: Full Dose
IGF-1: 40-60mcg PWO bi-Lat IM injection week 1-4 of PCT

OR after your previous suggestion:
NEW TENTATIVE PLAN:

PCT#2:

Cut the SERM doses by ___% starting week 19 and incorporate Dermacrine Sustain (this would replace using activate extreme and an AI during PCT possibly.)

• 25mg/day clomid or
• 10mg/day nolva or
• 10mg/tormefene or
• 50mg/day raloxifene

--the ideal doses for maximal testosterone stimulation based on my research.
ONE OF THE ABOVE SERM DOSES^^ would be used in conjuction with Dermacrine Sustain
Click to expand...


You definitely shouldn’t need more than 10mg/ED of the Aromasin during cycle… . and you shouldn’t need the SERM.

The Derma Sustain and Raloxifene would give you a beautiful PCT. If $$ is a problem you can opt for toremifene.

BTW, I believe the 6-bromo-Adione would be a worthy steroidal AI on cycle as an alternative to the Aromasin. I believe the AX is the 6-bromo? (Sorry I don’t keep up on competitors products.. ;-o)

-Pp
 
Primordial Perf said:
You definitely shouldn’t need more than 10mg/ED of the Aromasin during cycle… . and you shouldn’t need the SERM.

The Derma Sustain and Raloxifene would give you a beautiful post cycle therapy. If $$ is a problem you can opt for toremifene.

BTW, I believe the 6-bromo-Adione would be a worthy steroidal AI on cycle as an alternative to the Aromasin. I believe the AX is the 6-bromo? (Sorry I don’t keep up on competitors products.. ;-o)

-Pp
Click to expand...

Thanks man. Ill probably run a 2-3 week Toremifene taper at the "usual" doses to be safe and then drop the serm doses significantly and incororporate Dermacrine Sustain. Thanks alot for your help Pp. I really appreciate it.

Last question would be: if I opt to use AX's Hyperdrol x2 which is their 6-bromo product, then at what dose should it be used (equivalent to 10mg aromasin ED or 15mg aromasin EOD)?
 
pudzian2 said:
He both of you have helped me alot. THanks again PistonPump
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no prob..your a solid member to help. Not rushing it and researching as much as possible to have the most successful cycle you can with what you have, I applaude that. So it shouldnt be long before you start.
 
pistonpump said:
no prob..your a solid member to help. Not rushing it and researching as much as possible to have the most successful cycle you can with what you have, I applaude that. So it shouldnt be long before you start.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your kind words PistonPump. I will be starting next monday if all goes well. (assuming some mail carriers dont take forever). I am very excited. i feel confident in my research and planning, as well as the information that all of the knowledgeable members of AM helped me to learn.
 
pudzian2 said:
Thanks for your kind words PistonPump. I will be starting next monday if all goes well. (assuming some mail carriers dont take forever). I am very excited. i feel confident in my research and planning, as well as the information that all of the knowledgeable members of AM helped me to learn.
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you gonna log it or anything? if you dont want to go into detail like diet and training and all that may i suggest a mini log to record your findings while you go thru the cycle...?
 
pistonpump said:
you gonna log it or anything? if you dont want to go into detail like diet and training and all that may i suggest a mini log to record your findings while you go thru the cycle...?
Click to expand...

yes im going to log\journal it in some way. very excited to do so
 
THE CYCLE HAS BEGUN. I started yesterday, the 24th. I will be making a new thread and it will serve as a log-ish for the cycle. I think I may format it into more of a journal type thing that may be cumulative...anyway Ill post the link here so that anyone who helped me with the planning can see how the results play out.
 
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