PH/PS Rankings.

TestEinstein

Member
I've been combing through logs, first-hand accounts, and profiles of several of the designer steroid products currently available. I have a general idea about relative gains vs sides, but I'd like a ranking of the six or so more popular ones still widely available. Feel free to add more if you like. For comparison purposes, I've included the moderate dose for each, and obviously clones are assumed to be chemically identical to original formula; there are a lot of aliases out there. I'd like to see people's opinions, especially where you think trenazone might fit. Here are mine...


Muscle mass:
1 SD/M-Drol/M-Stane 10-30mg
2 Epi/Havoc 30-60mg
3 P-Mag 50-125mg
4 Hdrol 50-125mg
5 M-LMG 75-125mg
6 P-Stanz 150-350mg

Sides:
1 SD
2 Epi
3 M-LMG
4 P-Mag
5 Hdrol
6 P-stanz

Let me know if these doses seem wrong. I'm hearing from many people that SD @30mg is a stronger bulker than legit dbol(methandrostenolone) at 30, so I assume from those anecdotes that it would fall between #s 1 and 2.

Also, I'm of the opinion that SD, Epi, P-mag, and Hdrol should be stacked with non 17aa's such as P-stanz, trenazone and M-LMG, but I see 17aa's stacked quite often. maybe someone can shed some light on the rationale behind it, since the ones here don't really aromatize. I would assume a person would use a non alkylated oral as a sort of a base so that the methyl could be either pulsed, or taken less of for longer. For example, 100mg/day of P-stanz with 15mg/day of superdrol 2 hours before workouts for 4 weeks sounds like an awesome dry bulk.

Lastly are the better bulkers/higher side effects drugs really just a matter of dosing? For example, if we dosed hdrol at 150mg would we see the same extreme gains and high toxicity as SD at 30? I ask because it seems that users report similar gains with 10-15 mg SD as those using HDrol around 75mg.

A few topics anyway. Have fun.
 
I would not consider 30mg of SD to be 'moderate'.. That is pretty much a max dose. 75mg of Halo is mild, but still 25mg over what the bottle says is a max daily dose. Might want to edit those.. maybe put "reccomended dose" and "high dose" or something similar. Just a thought
 
RedwolfWV said:
I would not consider 30mg of SD to be 'moderate'.. That is pretty much a max dose. 75mg of Halo is mild, but still 25mg over what the bottle says is a max daily dose. Might want to edit those.. maybe put "reccomended dose" and "high dose" or something similar. Just a thought
Click to expand...

Yeah... different bottles have different mg/capsule and a lot only have say 15mg SD. Plus recommendations vary, but I'll edit the SD one; people have different opinions of the "sweet spot." Would be good to hear that input as well.
 
TestEinstein said:
I've been combing through logs, first-hand accounts, and profiles of several of the designer steroid products currently available. I have a general idea about relative gains vs sides, but I'd like a ranking of the six or so more popular ones still widely available. Feel free to add more if you like. For comparison purposes, I've included the moderate dose for each, and obviously clones are assumed to be chemically identical to original formula; there are a lot of aliases out there. I'd like to see people's opinions, especially where you think trenazone might fit. Here are mine...


Muscle mass:
1 SD/M-Drol/M-Stane 10-30mg
*Trenazone (not sure on dosing but i would guess it ranks roughly around here)*
2 Epi/Havoc 30-60mg
3 P-Mag 50-125mg
4 Hdrol 50-125mg
5 M-LMG 75-125mg
6 P-Stanz 150-350mg

Sides:
1 SD
2 Epi
3 M-LMG
4 P-Mag
5 Hdrol
6 P-stanz

Let me know if these doses seem wrong. I'm hearing from many people that SD @30mg is a stronger bulker than legit dbol(methandrostenolone) at 30, so I assume from those anecdotes that it would fall between #s 1 and 2.

Also, I'm of the opinion that SD, Epi, P-mag, and Hdrol should be stacked with non 17aa's such as P-stanz, trenazone and M-LMG, but I see 17aa's stacked quite often. maybe someone can shed some light on the rationale behind it, since the ones here don't really aromatize. I would assume a person would use a non alkylated oral as a sort of a base so that the methyl could be either pulsed, or taken less of for longer. For example, 100mg/day of P-stanz with 15mg/day of superdrol 2 hours before workouts for 4 weeks sounds like an awesome dry bulk.

Lastly are the better bulkers/higher side effects drugs really just a matter of dosing? For example, if we dosed hdrol at 150mg would we see the same extreme gains and high toxicity as SD at 30? I ask because it seems that users report similar gains with 10-15 mg SD as those using HDrol around 75mg.

A few topics anyway. Have fun.
Click to expand...

i adjusted your post with what i think are typical dose ranges since its difficult to assume a single average dose as it can vary significantly.

for your last question, dosing higher on a weaker compound (ex. 150mg hdrol) probably would still not compare to 30mg of SD as far as gains go. i dont really think there is much additional benefit in going over 100-125mg of hdrol. more sides but probably little additional gains imo
 
I wouldn't think Epi belongs at #2 on sides. I haven't heard of many if any people saying they've had sides from it.

Agreed with tren products being in the discussion, too.

Ultradrol should be mentioned, as well.
 
MidwestBeast said:
I wouldn't think Epi belongs at #2 on sides. I haven't heard of many if any people saying they've had sides from it.

Agreed with tren products being in the discussion, too.

Ultradrol should be mentioned, as well.
Click to expand...

I agree ultradrol should be in there but I don't know where methylsten would go. It sounds a lot like dimethazine and superdrol, which are essentially the same themselves. About 40% lower dosage for UD and slightly more androgenic sides based on the Q ratio... Probably would be #2 after SD? At least the DEA isn't going after ultradrol, to my knowledge.

I don't know that I would rank trenazone that high...I've only seen it as a transdermal and the results have been VERY mixed. A lot of people associate tren with the methoxygonadiene in M-LMG for some reason (different from ergomax-LMG, which is a methyl). Others associate it with Diendione (Tren-X), but like pheraplex it's been banned for awhile, so I didn't put it up. If anyone wants to add or make this more comprehensive, I'd like to see it, I pretty much put it up here to know if there was much qualitative difference in mass gain among the middle-of-the-pack products P-mag, Hdrol, M-LMG and Epistane, but the more input the better.
 
Epi maybe next up on my list.
I hated p-mag, wasn't hungry on it.
 
from what i've cycled epi would be #1 on sides. i've never ran sd and never will. epi trashed my libido. it was completly gone. back pumps and lethargy as well. i know it's person specific sometimes but it isn't worth it for me. m-lmg had no sides for me and only minor back pumps with hdrol. i'm about to start a andromass/protomax cycle. i have no sides with mass and hopefully protomax is the same
 
apoxtle said:
from what i've cycled epi would be #1 on sides. i've never ran sd and never will. epi trashed my libido. it was completly gone. back pumps and lethargy as well. i know it's person specific sometimes but it isn't worth it for me. m-lmg had no sides for me and only minor back pumps with hdrol. i'm about to start a andromass/protomax cycle. i have no sides with mass and hopefully protomax is the same
Click to expand...

interesting.. i ran Epi 6-7 weeks at 60mg ED, and had little to no sides. i did use transaderm as a test base, but still. i felt great the entire cycle, pct was a breeze too. very little shut down in the end. IMO the end results were much better than when i ran SD at 30mg, and like i said little to no sides..
 
I am almost 4 weeks in to a SD/ EPI cycle and the only side I have had is bad back pumps. Taurine helps but it's still hurts on leg day.
 
steppinRazor said:
interesting.. i ran Epi 6-7 weeks at 60mg ED, and had little to no sides. i did use transaderm as a test base, but still. i felt great the entire cycle, pct was a breeze too. very little shut down in the end. IMO the end results were much better than when i ran SD at 30mg, and like i said little to no sides..
Click to expand...
i know. i'ts just how i respond i'm sure. i've never read about anyone who responded to epi like i did and i do my research. what sucks is i have a bottle and a half sitting around. maybe when i'm between girlfriends...
 
yeah thats really too bad.. have you tried using a test base like transaderm??
also im curious as to what brand it is... not because of the ill effects it had on u, but because i may be interested ;)
 
steppinRazor said:
yeah thats really too bad.. have you tried using a test base like transaderm??
also im curious as to what brand it is... not because of the ill effects it had on u, but because i may be interested ;)
Click to expand...
mrsupps epi strong and epivar. not saying anything bad about either, especially mr supps, it's just how i react to epi i think. i will look into transaderm for sure. thanks a lot
 
kaikara said:
You forgot DMZ. Near SD results, less side effects.
Click to expand...

DMZ is 2 superdrol molecules mated to each other via a Nitrogen atom. The extraneous part is cleaved and removed in the gut and the only reason any anecdotal reports would indicate lower mg for mg side effects and gains would be that some of it would be metabolized without having been first cleaved apart, which only indicates that the delivery system itself is less intrinsically efficient. For purposes of examining a cycle I don't even differentiate the two. Probably larger differences in the batch/brand variations.
 
kaikara said:
She better still be alive. I sure ain't buying my kids rotten little teeth.
Click to expand...

:laughing:

Y'all boys a trip haha
 
As i think ALL of us know this isnt a horse race where there are clear winners losers and in betweens. These are steroids that react to EVERY PERSON DIFFERENTLY, Ya we could say SD is strong and epi is lean basic stuff but still the truth is every compound is going to have different sides and different gains based on thr person and his/her genetics PERIOD. And his doesnt even take into account diet and training. So this is anecdotal evidence and i think we all neeed to admit we have no idea how a certain compound is going to effect some random person or what sides he may or may not get. I agree with dosing protocols because we have to have a standard on the bottles so people know how many to take a day but they are in no way going to match for your needs are for sure.
TestEinstein said:
I've been combing through logs, first-hand accounts, and profiles of several of the designer steroid products currently available. I have a general idea about relative gains vs sides, but I'd like a ranking of the six or so more popular ones still widely available. Feel free to add more if you like. For comparison purposes, I've included the moderate dose for each, and obviously clones are assumed to be chemically identical to original formula; there are a lot of aliases out there. I'd like to see people's opinions, especially where you think trenazone might fit. Here are mine...


Muscle mass:
1 SD/M-Drol/M-Stane 10-30mg
2 Epi/Havoc 30-60mg
3 P-Mag 50-125mg
4 Hdrol 50-125mg
5 M-LMG 75-125mg
6 P-Stanz 150-350mg

Sides:
1 SD
2 Epi
3 M-LMG
4 P-Mag
5 Hdrol
6 P-stanz

Let me know if these doses seem wrong. I'm hearing from many people that SD @30mg is a stronger bulker than legit dbol(methandrostenolone) at 30, so I assume from those anecdotes that it would fall between #s 1 and 2.

Also, I'm of the opinion that SD, Epi, P-mag, and Hdrol should be stacked with non 17aa's such as P-stanz, trenazone and M-LMG, but I see 17aa's stacked quite often. maybe someone can shed some light on the rationale behind it, since the ones here don't really aromatize. I would assume a person would use a non alkylated oral as a sort of a base so that the methyl could be either pulsed, or taken less of for longer. For example, 100mg/day of P-stanz with 15mg/day of superdrol 2 hours before workouts for 4 weeks sounds like an awesome dry bulk.

Lastly are the better bulkers/higher side effects drugs really just a matter of dosing? For example, if we dosed hdrol at 150mg would we see the same extreme gains and high toxicity as SD at 30? I ask because it seems that users report similar gains with 10-15 mg SD as those using HDrol around 75mg.

A few topics anyway. Have fun.
Click to expand...
 
TestEinstein said:
DMZ is 2 superdrol molecules mated to each other via a Nitrogen atom. The extraneous part is cleaved and removed in the gut and the only reason any anecdotal reports would indicate lower mg for mg side effects and gains would be that some of it would be metabolized without having been first cleaved apart, which only indicates that the delivery system itself is less intrinsically efficient. For purposes of examining a cycle I don't even differentiate the two. Probably larger differences in the batch/brand variations.
Click to expand...

what you are saying could be a possibility of one reason, but it is not less harsh than sd, it has it's own host of sides, different than sd.

more probable is the nitrogen bond is hydrolized in the stomach acids, and a completely different steroid is formed, one that seems to be highly androgenic, and moderately anabolic.
 
Are all 17 aa same in liver toxicity I know not sides... Prob dumb question I don't think they are at all but yea
 
standon said:
Are all 17 aa same in liver toxicity I know not sides... Prob dumb question I don't think they are at all but yea
Click to expand...

No. I know we need a disclaimer anytime we generalize about side effects, but no.

Anavar, Winstrol, and Halodrol all have a reputation for being milder on the liver. Dianabol usually exhibits somewhat greater toxicity, and superdrol, halotestin (not halodrol), and anadrol all are reputed to be among the most toxic. There are case studies all over the web about 17aa steroids causing hospitalizations. What I have noticed is that those tend to be people who used far more than usual, for longer than usual. One guy also had hepatitis and drank heavily on weekends while being on his 8 week superdrol cycle. Who knows what else these guys were doing... One problem with SD that I've noticed less in other compounds is that initially the liver issues get worse after discontinuation, sometimes to the point of possible transplant candidacy, before they get better. It would really help if there could be more research into this area.

You can't say who will or will not have a decidedly poor hepatic response to 17aas, but let's be clear about a few things:

1. They all carry some level of toxicity.
2. Even non-17aa orals have documented, demonstrable hepatic toxicity, as measured by AST/ALT and other markers.
3. There is direct positive correlation between toxicity and
a. dose
b. duration of cycle
c. how hard it is for the body to metabolize the compound (note that while halodrol has a long half-life, it seems to be one ecxeption with regard to toxicity)
d. the relative anabolic potency of the compound (think anavar, winstrol vs SD, anadrol)
4. Though both can generate problems, 30mg of superdrol will be harsher on any person's liver than 30mg of anavar would have been.
5. To my knowledge there are no 17aa steroids that do not adversely affect HDL/LDL levels. While injectibles can be responsible for such phenomena as well, the effect is more pronounced with such methylated compounds.
 
Husker89 said:
I ran hdrol at 50-75 and had good results i agree did someone say run it at 150 a day? Thats my point about people giving anecdotal advice
Click to expand...

No one here actually suggested that, though you can find people going that high all over the place, espcially among the less cerebral message boards. In the original post (the one you quoted in your previous post) there was a question regarding relative magnitude of anabolic effect between two compounds as a result of deviating from the "broscience-approved" protocols. The other example was a hypothetical relativistic examination of the anabolic and negative side effects of a 15mg SD vs 75 mg halodrol protocol, the rationale being that with the popular compounds on the market, higher anabolic potency of a certain drug at a certain dose seems to go hand-in-hand with more profound adverse (liver/lipid) issues.
 
I know what 13ethyl is i didnt look i thought he said sd epi hdrol and pstanz i didnt look at the first post but ya that 19nor isnt.
 
I think that that is pretty obvious that the more you dose ( in theory) the more anabolic results you get(besides deminishing returns) and then the more sides you might get.
 
I think that that is pretty obvious that the more you dose ( in theory) the more anabolic results you get(besides deminishing returns) and then the more sides you might get.

Not 19nor i meant tren product my bad
 
TestEinstein said:
No. I know we need a disclaimer anytime we generalize about side effects, but no.

Anavar, Winstrol, and Halodrol all have a reputation for being milder on the liver. Dianabol usually exhibits somewhat greater toxicity, and superdrol, halotestin (not halodrol), and anadrol all are reputed to be among the most toxic. There are case studies all over the web about 17aa steroids causing hospitalizations. What I have noticed is that those tend to be people who used far more than usual, for longer than usual. One guy also had hepatitis and drank heavily on weekends while being on his 8 week superdrol cycle. Who knows what else these guys were doing... One problem with SD that I've noticed less in other compounds is that initially the liver issues get worse after discontinuation, sometimes to the point of possible transplant candidacy, before they get better. It would really help if there could be more research into this area.

You can't say who will or will not have a decidedly poor hepatic response to 17aas, but let's be clear about a few things:

1. They all carry some level of toxicity.
2. Even non-17aa orals have documented, demonstrable hepatic toxicity, as measured by AST/ALT and other markers.
3. There is direct positive correlation between toxicity and
a. dose
b. duration of cycle
c. how hard it is for the body to metabolize the compound (note that while halodrol has a long half-life, it seems to be one ecxeption with regard to toxicity)
d. the relative anabolic potency of the compound (think anavar, winstrol vs SD, anadrol)
4. Though both can generate problems, 30mg of superdrol will be harsher on any person's liver than 30mg of anavar would have been.
5. To my knowledge there are no 17aa steroids that do not adversely affect HDL/LDL levels. While injectibles can be responsible for such phenomena as well, the effect is more pronounced with such methylated compounds.
Click to expand...

That's was a ridiculous answer, your great :-)
 
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