PES ERASE QUESTION

[F355]

haha, yeah.

the way THEY write 3-deoxy doesnt make sense.

Yupp, sure doesn't.

 

[JudoJosh]

I understand that this might be a little off topic, but it's been bugging me for quite some time now. This is probably the wrong place to ask this, but fck it. As some of you are already aware, there is another product on the market that contains the same active ingredient that is in Erase. However, they choose to use a totally different nomenclature, which at the end of the day, wouldn't exactly be the "same" active as Erase. They choose the name 3,7-keto-DHEA. Now, I don't have a degree in organic chemistry, but I'd like to think I know a basic understanding of it, as far as naming compounds go. 3,7-keto-DHEA would imply that there are two ketones at carbons 3 and 7 along with an -ene at C5 and one more ketone at C17, rounding out the functional groups and bonds of standard DHEA.

Erase's active nomenclature is androst-3,5-diene-7,17-dione. Now just by looking at this compound's name, I can tell it has the basic sterane nucleus with double bonds at C3 and C5 and one ketone each at C7 and C17. Now comparing the two actives, the difference that I see is that 3,7-keto-DHEA actually HAS a ketone at C3 whereas Erase's active does not, hence the double bond at C3 which makes it 3-deoxy.

Maybe I'm missing something here but as far as nomenclatures on labels go, these seem to be two different compounds and it bugs me when people keep implying that 3,7-keto-DHEA is the same ingredient that is in Erase. If you were to break down 3,7-keto-DHEA even further, wouldn't it be androst-5-ene-3,7,17-trione? I dunno, maybe I'm just totally off here. I just don't see how 3,7-keto = 3,5-diene; the discrepancy I'm experiencing is the difference at the 3 position.

Again, I know it's a little off topic but I didn't want to create a new thread just for this question and I felt like it was "somewhat" ok to ask in this thread considering the title of the thread, hehe. Oh and I think you guys know the other product that I am talking about since it has already been discussed in this thread. It's just that it's sort of a universal rule to not call out products/companies when you are discussing about them towards another similiar product.

I believe PA went over how their nomenclature for 3-deoxy-7-oxo didnt make any sense. I think you would have to PM that company and ask them why they named it the way they did.

If it's supposed to be the same active as Erase, then 3-deoxy-7-oxo-DHEA or 3-deoxy-7-keto-DHEA would make perfect sense, no? It would just be another way of writing androst-3,5-diene-7,17-dione. But I can see where the question would arise if it contains a 3-ene or not, just because it's 3-deoxy'ed.

Would you happen to have a link to that PA discussion?

I assume this is about Free Test?

The problem is if a regulator sees 3-desoxy or 3-deoxy on a supplement label they may think Madol (which begins with 2-Deoxy). You are correct in your breakdown of the nomenclature however, App Nut simply felt it would be wiser to leave the desoxy/deoxy off the label.

Dirk should be here to follow up shortly if you have any questions

 

[kevinhy]

I assume this is about Free Test?

The problem is if a regulator sees 3-desoxy or 3-deoxy on a supplement label they may think Madol (which begins with 2-Deoxy). You are correct in your breakdown of the nomenclature however, App Nut simply felt it would be wiser to leave the desoxy/deoxy off the label.

Dirk should be here to follow up shortly if you have any questions

I guess i can see how that makes sense.

Although the nomenclature for madol looks nothing like 3-deoxy-7-oxo, i wouldnt put it past a dumb regulator to see "deoxy" and think it had a controlled substance.

Better safe than sorry.

 

[JudoJosh]

I guess i can see how that makes sense.

Although the nomenclature for madol looks nothing like 3-deoxy-7-oxo, i wouldnt put it past a dumb regulator to see "deoxy" and think it had a controlled substance.

Better safe than sorry.

Exactly! With all the recent bans and investigations and talks of the FDA taking over dietary supplements, App Nut just didnt want to raise any red flags with them.

 

[F355]

I assume this is about Free Test?

The problem is if a regulator sees 3-desoxy or 3-deoxy on a supplement label they may think Madol (which begins with 2-Deoxy). You are correct in your breakdown of the nomenclature however, App Nut simply felt it would be wiser to leave the desoxy/deoxy off the label.

Dirk should be here to follow up shortly if you have any questions

I guess i can see how that makes sense.

Although the nomenclature for madol looks nothing like 3-deoxy-7-oxo, i wouldnt put it past a dumb regulator to see "deoxy" and think it had a controlled substance.

Better safe than sorry.

Ahhh I see, I see. Well from a company standpoint, I totally get it now; I didn't even think about the whole Madol reference. Personally, I don't think it would "look" similar to Madol on the label no more than all the PEA analogs that look similar to amphetamine. I mean you would have to be a really dumb regulator to go as far as to start red-flagging products that contain 3-deoxy-7-oxo without taking a closer look at it; frankly, your position should be questioned if you jump to conclusions like that.

AppNut didn't ever consider 7-oxo-androstadienone or 7-oxo-androst-3,5-dien-17-one as an alternative to the current nomenclature ?