PCT actually necessary?

youngbrah

New member
I went to the doctor yesterday and asked him questions about steroids and pcts. He said taking a pct after steroids is very bad for you, and I'm better off just letting my body return to homeostasis naturally. Thoughts?
 
Most doctors don't have any clue. It's refreshing to hear that you are honest with your doctor about your AAS use though. Most docs won't even sit down with you for a conversation because they've got to get to the next patient.
 
T-Bone said:
Most doctors don't have any clue. It's refreshing to hear that you are honest with your doctor about your AAS use though. Most docs won't even sit down with you for a conversation because they've got to get to the next patient.
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Agreed that most Doctors don't take the time to find out about what your taking. I would do my own research knowing this. I would always use a PCT on any hormone effecting cycle.
 
youngbrah said:
I went to the doctor yesterday and asked him questions about steroids and pcts. He said taking a pct after steroids is very bad for you, and I'm better off just letting my body return to homeostasis naturally. Thoughts?
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Problem is, sometimes the body won't return to homeostasis naturally - which can happen for a multitude of reasons - and it may need a helping hand. A PCT is your best defense against permanent shutdown, however that in of itself is not a guarantee either, it's simply the best option we have.

I don't like the idea of putting a time frame on PCT, (i.e. 4-6 weeks) because sometimes it can take a heck of a lot longer to restore proper (or close enough to it) HPTA function and so you should also plan for a worst case scenario if you value your normal hormonal production.

Ask him WHY he thinks it is bad for you and maybe do some of your own research and take it in for you and him to discuss briefly (I do this sometimes if I have concerns on anything). At least then you can get some rational behind the statement
 
I read some stuff before on serms and how they are worst for you then the actual roids and the obviously research chemical serms are an even worst idea. me personally ive run stano, ostarine, furuza-a all without a serm and recovered fine or felt like i did (im not gonna get bloods drawn for every little cycle idc what people say), i was however using an otc pct. For harsher cycles i prefer torem and i always have some on hand just in case.
 
youngbrah said:
Kinda said after taking hormones, itd be worse to manipulate your hormones any further by using a PCT
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A PCT helps restore HPTA function, without it there is a greater chance you would not recover at all. Hell, even if a PCT only improved your chances of restoring function by 5%, that's still better odds than before.
 
ericool007 said:
I read some stuff before on serms and how they are worst for you then the actual roids and the obviously research chemical serms are an even worst idea. me personally ive run stano, ostarine, furuza-a all without a serm and recovered fine or felt like i did (im not gonna get bloods drawn for every little cycle idc what people say), i was however using an otc pct. For harsher cycles i prefer torem and i always have some on hand just in case.
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Id be extremely interested in seeing bloods, ideally from more than 1 or 2 forum bros, showing that a SERM was 'worse for you' than the cycle itself.

I mean, 'worse for you' how, precisely? Made hormonal values worse? Retarded hormonal recovery? Or made lipids worse? Or we talking some form of SERM rage?
 
Jiigzz said:
A PCT helps restore HPTA function, without it there is a greater chance you would not recover at all. Hell, even if a PCT only improved your chances of restoring function by 5%, that's still better odds than before.
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Is there something that restores HPTA function that is otc or you basiclly gotta risk it and go for RC's?
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Id be extremely interested in seeing bloods, ideally from more than 1 or 2 forum bros, showing that a SERM was 'worse for you' than the cycle itself.

I mean, 'worse for you' how, precisely? Made hormonal values worse? Retarded hormonal recovery? Or made lipids worse? Or we talking some form of SERM rage?
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I'm guessing just more toxic for your body, ive read people say nolvadex can damage your heart valve, clomid has worst mental side effects just that kind of stuff.
 
ericool007 said:
I'm guessing just more toxic for your body, ive read people say nolvadex can damage your heart valve, clomid has worst mental side effects just that kind of stuff.
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Ive read the torem-heart effect...but arent these risks largely dose and/or duration dependant? As in, higher/longer than what your typical PCT is?
 
youngbrah said:
Is there something that restores HPTA function that is otc or you basiclly gotta risk it and go for RC's?
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Nothing herbal IMO that I would rely on, as an adjunct maybe, but not on its own.

I went pharma when I was into that stuff, but im less interested in muscles and more other things these days so stronger cycles are far off my radar
 
In defense of the doctor, your body most likely WILL recover on its own and some SERMs can have some nasty side effects PLUS they aren't really meant to be used for that purpose so, with very little clinical evidence validating them as treatments, his response is actually the correct response. Your body will recover and the risk to reward benefits of SERMs is not clear, so natural recovery would appear to be the best bet. Now that's not to say that it is, but for a doctor who is not familiar with the anecdotal and mechanistic evidence, it makes sense that his response was that

(Sorry if rambling and not clear. Driving. Will fix later)
 
JudoJosh said:
In defense of the doctor, your body most likely WILL recover on its own and some SERMs can have some nasty side effects PLUS they aren't really meant to be used for that purpose so, with very little clinical evidence validating them as treatments, his response is actually the correct response. Your body will recover and the risk to reward benefits of SERMs is not clear, so natural recovery would appear to be the best bet. Now that's not to say that it is, but for a doctor who is not familiar with the anecdotal and mechanistic evidence, it makes sense that his response was that

(Sorry if rambling and not clear. Driving. Will fix later)
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Agreed in terms of appropriate response, but therapies like Clomid restarts are actually recommended by some physicians, so there is some method to the madness.

Also, 'most likely' will recover is an interesting stance - that would depend on compound used, length of cycle etc would it not?
 
JudoJosh said:
In defense of the doctor...

(Sorry if rambling and not clear. Driving. Will fix later)
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That actually makes good sense, and if that were to be his reasoning then I could certainly respect that.

Fwiw, I dislike the absolute implications of the statement that 'PCT is necessary'; to claim something to be necessary is to make a very strong claim, one I disagree with in this instance.

However, as you alluded to, is a PCT necessary IF one wishes to improve recovery odds? At this point I believe yes.
 
I'm not sure if I would even go that far and say it improves recovery odds. There isn't a reason that I know of that would cause long term suppression post cycle outside of pre-existing underlying issues (I.e. hypogonadism). If you are healthy and go on a cycle and then don't PCT, you will most likely be fine and test levels will return to baseline. It might take a while, but it will return.

Furthermore, this whole idea that people do PCT for heth reasons or to return baseline levels is a farce. No, that is not shy people do it. The real reason, and the one which makes PCT actually necessary, is to keep gains made. This is what makes PCT necessary and why people do it. They don't care about their health, cuz if they did they wouldn't have been playing with underground illegal androgens in the first place.
 
Jiigzz said:
Agreed in terms of appropriate response, but therapies like Clomid restarts are actually recommended by some physicians, so there is some method to the madness.

Also, 'most likely' will recover is an interesting stance - that would depend on compound used, length of cycle etc would it not?
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The clomid stuff is very new and is not really for PCT per se. It's more of an alternative for testosterone as a HRT/TRT option. There is no studies, or none that I know of. That take healthy males, put them on a cycle of test and tren and then do a group with nolva/clomid/etc and one control and records what happens.

As for the "most likely" comments. I don't think so, but then again I'm not an endo but, I can't think of any reason why or how it would lead to permanent suppression. The rules of homeostasis will still exist so the body machinery will be actively trying to restore balance. What about a steroid cycle would prevent this from happening? It's not like the pituitary is just gonna forget to send out LH/FSH when test falls. It just might take a while and then also take a while before it tells the testes to start producing enough test, but as far as I know, it should eventually happen.
 
JudoJosh said:
...the one which makes PCT actually necessary, is to keep gains made.
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There is a wider cntext of variables at play here than just improving odds, so agreed here totally.

A PCT will likely get me back to at least baseline more quicly than no PCT, which of course makes retention of on-cycle gains more probable.

Of course, not many PCPs will care about you keeping your gains, at least in terms of their main concern being your overall health.

Relatedly, I suspect that when we think of these old school bbers we think of those pro's of Arnies era. They probably got away without doing a PCT and retaining much of their gains due to genetics, perhaps.

For the average joe, this tactic wont work.
 
After reading the responses I highly doubt the pros back in the 70's even thought about PCT. Cycle on , cycle off. That's all that they worried about.
 
It makes much more sense to "Blast and Cruise" rather than the ups and downs of PCT. Besides people lie about how much they keep when they finish a cycle. The body can't hold onto all that muscle without having super-physiological doses of testosterone or whatever drug in their system. You'll eventually go back to homeostasis and loose a good deal of the muscle you gained on cycle. Sure you will keep some, but not nearly as much as people claim. Young guys saying "I kept 20 pounds of muscle post cycle"....Sure you did!. If all these guys really kept that much muscle each time they cycles we would have a lot of Mr.O competitors around here. Say these guys claiming that much muscle ran 3 cycles a year. So that would me each year a gain of 60 pounds in LBM. So three years later would be 180 pounds of LBM. See how ridiculous that sounds?
 
NewAgeMayan said:
There is a wider cntext of variables at play here than just improving odds, so agreed here totally.

A PCT will likely get me back to at least baseline more quicly than no PCT, which of course makes retention of on-cycle gains more probable.

Of course, not many PCPs will care about you keeping your gains, at least in terms of their main concern being your overall health.

Relatedly, I suspect that when we think of these old school bbers we think of those pro's of Arnies era. They probably got away without doing a PCT and retaining much of their gains due to genetics, perhaps.

For the average joe, this tactic wont work.
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As for the old pros, it is an interesting topic because it delves into the concept of "muscle memory" which is still being explored and understood but from the latest research it would appear that if say Arnold went on a cycle of dbol, yes he would swole up and gain muscle.. Then he stops cold turkey. What happens? Understandably be ends up losing quite a bit of the gains made, or you would assume at least but this was also a time period of really high protein I takes so maybe it helped attenuate some of the loss. But what's interesting, well to me at least, is the physiologic aftermath from the cycle. Research would suggest that during his cycle structurally changes were made in his muscles, namely myonuclei, would remain post cycle. Meaning, it would be easier for him to gain muscle even after that cycle. It's still a new topic that is emerging and being explored but it does have some interesting implications, especially since "muscle memory" has always thought to be a neural/motor control type cause for it but now we have some evidence suggesting there might be a physiological role at play here
 
T-Bone said:
Sure you will keep some, but not nearly as much as people claim. Young guys saying "I kept 20 pounds of muscle post cycle"....Sure you did!. If all these guys really kept that much muscle each time they cycles we would have a lot of Mr.O competitors around here. Say these guys claiming that much muscle ran 3 cycles a year. So that would me each year a gain of 60 pounds in LBM. So three years later would be 180 pounds of LBM. See how ridiculous that sounds?
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Yes, but with each successive cycle I would say there is a high potential for a trend of decreasing on-cycle gains. Also, if Im going to be uber-cynical of anecdote, its that people are very non-objective when it comes to self-reporting. That is, 20lb gained on cycle? Yeah bet a fair whack of that is either transitory bodyweight and/or fat.



Im obviously currently aligned with the pro-PCT and pro-SERM camps, generally speaking.

I would love to read a well argued, reasonable post from someone who thinks differently to this (aside from what josh has already said). I know Admin has some strong opinions on this topic, would be great to hear his thoughts.
 
JudoJosh said:
As for the old pros, it is an interesting topic because it delves into the concept of "muscle memory" which is still being explored and understood but from the latest research it would appear that if say Arnold went on a cycle of dbol, yes he would swole up and gain muscle.. Then he stops cold turkey. What happens? Understandably be ends up losing quite a bit of the gains made, or you would assume at least but this was also a time period of really high protein I takes so maybe it helped attenuate some of the loss. But what's interesting, well to me at least, is the physiologic aftermath from the cycle. Research would suggest that during his cycle structurally changes were made in his muscles, namely myonuclei, would remain post cycle. Meaning, it would be easier for him to gain muscle even after that cycle. It's still a new topic that is emerging and being explored but it does have some interesting implications, especially since "muscle memory" has always thought to be a neural/motor control type cause for it but now we have some evidence suggesting there might be a physiological role at play here
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The Muscle Memory theory is when your body gets used to a move that you do so much that it's almost second nature. You don't have to think about it. Like the way a golfer swings the club. A first timer would have to think about swinging the club but after a while it's second nature. It's almost as if your body does it itself, it "learns". It has nothing to do with keeping muscle mass.
 
T-Bone said:
Yes, but can the have an effect on your grammar and spelling and stop you from using proper punctuation?.
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Bro-Magnum, this is an Internet forum. Not everyone is going to use proper grammar 100% of the time. Including you.

Unless you're just being silly. Then, by all means.
 
Jiigzz said:
Problem is, sometimes the body won't return to homeostasis naturally - which can happen for a multitude of reasons - and it may need a helping hand. A PCT is your best defense against permanent shutdown, however that in of itself is not a guarantee either, it's simply the best option we have.

I don't like the idea of putting a time frame on PCT, (i.e. 4-6 weeks) because sometimes it can take a heck of a lot longer to restore proper (or close enough to it) HPTA function and so you should also plan for a worst case scenario if you value your normal hormonal production.

Ask him WHY he thinks it is bad for you and maybe do some of your own research and take it in for you and him to discuss briefly (I do this sometimes if I have concerns on anything). At least then you can get some rational behind the statement
Click to expand...

Someone posted here in the AM forums about PCT bandit was kind of interesting. He said that there is no PCT on Earth that will put you back to normal. The purpose of PCT is to jumpstart the process. If you're shutdown and your balls have shrunk, it may take awhile for natural test production to restart, so PCT attempts to get as far as possible, as fast as possible.
 
JudoJosh said:
The clomid stuff is very new and is not really for PCT per se. It's more of an alternative for testosterone as a HRT/TRT option. There is no studies, or none that I know of. That take healthy males, put them on a cycle of test and tren and then do a group with nolva/clomid/etc and one control and records what happens.

As for the "most likely" comments. I don't think so, but then again I'm not an endo but, I can't think of any reason why or how it would lead to permanent suppression. The rules of homeostasis will still exist so the body machinery will be actively trying to restore balance. What about a steroid cycle would prevent this from happening? It's not like the pituitary is just gonna forget to send out LH/FSH when test falls. It just might take a while and then also take a while before it tells the testes to start producing enough test, but as far as I know, it should eventually happen.
Click to expand...

That may be true, but has this ever been explored? I don't know enough about the subject to try get into any details, but I have seen discussion where someone had sub 300 test levels for years before doing a clomid restart and 8 weeks post he was back at around 600-700.

Thats why I tend to advocate for it
 
T-Bone said:
Yes, but can the have an effect on your grammar and spelling and stop you from using proper punctuation?.
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you might want to proofread your posts as well.
I don't even know what proper punctuation or spelling is anymore I'm so use to just texting as fast as possible.
 
ericool007 said:
you might want to proofread your posts as well.
I don't even know what proper punctuation or spelling is anymore I'm so use to just texting as fast as possible.
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em 2- gt repy bk to gt rps
 
Jiigzz said:
That may be true, but has this ever been explored? I don't know enough about the subject to try get into any details, but I have seen discussion where someone had sub 300 test levels for years before doing a clomid restart and 8 weeks post he was back at around 600-700.

Thats why I tend to advocate for it
Click to expand...

Right but what happens when they go off Clomid?. Won't it just slowly go back to what it was pre-treatment?
 
Jiigzz said:
youngbrah said:
Kinda said after taking hormones, itd be worse to manipulate your hormones any further by using a PCT
Click to expand...
A PCT helps restore HPTA function, without it there is a greater chance you would not recover at all. Hell, even if a PCT only improved your chances of restoring function by 5%, that's still better odds than before.
Jiigzz said:
A PCT helps restore HPTA function, without it there is a greater chance you would not recover at all. Hell, even if a PCT only improved your chances of restoring function by 5%, that's still better odds than before.
Click to expand...
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What the doctor said is not entirely untrue. To use a SERM is one thing but guys today are going too far overboard with a SERM and AI and multiple test boosters and anti-cortisol and a host of thing that certainly don't create homeostasis. They have no data to support how suppressed they were or how recovered they became afterward to support that a simple SERM is not equally capable or better on its own. Being on the safe side is not necessarily the safe and more is not necessarily better. IMHO buy a SERM and save the money for pre cycle and post cycle blood work. Then proceed to PCT with a SERM and blood work again. Seems like a lot of blood work cost? Have you seen how much guys spend on OTC PCT products with no evidence of its efficacy? I like data.

Edit: I am in agreement with JudoJosh (and the doctor's implied opinion) that the body will attempt to restore its HPTA on its own in the event that there isn't a pre-existent underlying endocrine/hormonal issue. The use a SERM can be effective at assisting that process with minimal adverse health risk at all.

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ericool007 said:
you might want to proofread your posts as well.
I don't even know what proper punctuation or spelling is anymore I'm so use to just texting as fast as possible.
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Well that should embarrass you.

That's what happens to middle schoolers and adults with the mental capacity of a teenager.
 
rascal14 said:
Well that should embarrass you.

That's what happens to middle schoolers and adults with the mental capacity of a teenager.
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Culture shift. When popular articles are written for the masses, the goal is to hit a 4th grade reading level.

But that's all stuff for another thread.
 
T-Bone said:
Right but what happens when they go off Clomid?. Won't it just slowly go back to what it was pre-treatment?
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I know those numbers would be inflated, but I honestly couldn't tell you how long it would last without some sort of reference. I'd be very interested to know, mostly because I've always been of the mind its needed.
 
Aaron.Cole said:
Culture shift. When popular articles are written for the masses, the goal is to hit a 4th grade reading level.

But that's all stuff for another thread.
Click to expand...

Perhaps LovingtoLift could make a thread about it?
 
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