Touey
Well-known member
The problem one thing is many now I thnik no want the labor pains just the baby
OBAMACARE...JUST A SMOKESCREEN
- Thread starter thebigt
- Start date
thebigt
Legend
when i was a kid we all worked fast food or similar jobs...you never used to see grown men and women working fast food, not very many anyways...and most were there for spending money not to support a family....walmart is the nations largest employer and guess what, minimum wage...this is shameful, imo...
things have changed, sean hannitys version of working as a waiter to pay way thru college is a pipe dream today...minimum wage jobs demand more than your job probably does, they know there are no jobs and take advantage of it.
everyone going to college is a joke, when i was growing up only the top 10% of high school students even thought of going to college and college standards were very high...now college has been watered down so much a degree is just a certificate of attendance....i know a guy with a college degree sacking groceries at kroger...my sons wife has a degree and works for angies list. besides the fact that many high school kids who used to work at mcdonalds for spendng money now help support their families...it's tough out there and sean hannity is very, very, out of touch, things are not what they used to be.
many people who held good jobs are now unemployeed...geez the list goes on.
thebigt
Legend
work fast food for 1 week....put up with all the crap those people put up with then look at your check at the end of that week...less than $300 for 40 hours of hell....
if you don't think those people are motivated to find something better you are mistaken. minimum wage is a trap very few will escape from!!!
Touey
Well-known member
I agree with all of this but one question is I know if the min. is going up companies will cut people or their hour I know really small business will so unfortunate with set up way it is and it is very bad middle class shafted I concur I think some would end up less hours or out of work altogether in the very small community business towns.
thebigt
Legend
if you can't afford to pay employees a decent wage you shouldn't be in business, employee cost is something that should be factored in before starting a business...i know many small business's who make a really nice living while trying to shortchange employees every way possible....hell everyone says prices will go up if minimum is raised, well guess what...prices are already skyhigh and minimum wage hasn't been raised in quite awhile-2009!!! as far as walmart and corporate giants paying such skimpy wages, that is nothing short of disgraceful that a person can work for the biggest corporation in the richest nation and still be below poverty level!!!
Touey
Well-known member
Yes I understand exact where you are coming from but America is the land of opportunity most people when they starting a business hoping it will just work so many fail you know so say in a town where there are little jobs people begging for jobs in this awful economy with some place other the walmart small business hires even though they too are getting slammed every which way noone has any idea how hard the govt. has make it now for small business to survive they getting hammered just as good the rest.
Now big outfit like walmart yes they greedy can pay more but the small business person are mostly good folk I think always exceptions though
thebigt
Legend
i agree...make the legal requirement $14!!!
thebigt
Legend
we are bitching about entitlements and programs the government has for the poor, right? why should the government have to pay entittlements to someone working a full time job? i say it is business's responsibility to pay a livable wage, then there wouldn't be such a need for so many to be on entitlements in the 1st place...profits are at an all time high, and yet employees qualify for entitlements...something is wrong here!!!
time for business to bite the bullet and accept ownership and stop putting everything on the shoulder of the government!!!
Beau
Well-known member
I understand your position.
I look at it differently.
I believe it is the individual's responsibility to prepare themselves with the education, training and communications skill necessary to earn a livable wage.
I have two sons that have graduated from graduate school in the past 12 months. Both have been hired into terrific jobs - in this, a truly dismal, economy. While I like to believe my sons are above average, I use them only as examples of what hard work and motivation can yield; although it may not.
The business motive is, and should remain, maximizing shareholder value within a defined business operating ideology.
Businesses have different defined business operating ideologies; Apple's is much different than Walmart's. One is not right and the other wrong, they are just different.
I am pretty "big" on people taking personal resposnibility.
ax1
Legend
Could be worse then....less businesses to hire minimum wage workers, end results people without any income at all.
I own a business, I cant afford to hire anybody. If I did I would have to find a job so I can afford to pay them.
You should see how it is in China where all our companies are running away from America's high taxes and regulations and hiring chinese slaves where it can be so bad they had to put nets around dormitories to catch workers jumping off the building.
People overall really dont have it too bad here, at least not right now.
Maybe businesses want the goverment to absorb costs that are taken away from them to begin with making it more difficult for them to both have competitive prices and giving their workers better wages.
ax1
Legend
Imagine this scenario...what if we payed all our apple/fruit pickers $14 an hour.
Would you be ok paying $8 for a single apple, or $12 for a single head of lettuce?
The thing is whenever we raise minimum wage, the cost of everything goes up. Imagine the outrage my grandmother would put up when she is paying $30 for a bag of prunes.
ax1
Legend
As bad as they say Wallmart is and everybody knows, there still are hundreds of job applications being filled for every job opening.
I know if the prices there got jacked up, I wouldnt have any incentive to shop there as well as many other people. They can close down like Caldor's, Blockbuster and Circut City, millions can lose their jobs.
texastea
New member
Americans stopped buying American-made products decades ago resulting in the elimination of manufacturing jobs with liveable wages. With few of these jobs available, adults are forced to rely on jobs in low margin industries that pay minimum wage. If you care how much Americans are paid, buy American-made products.
thebigt
Legend
ok....here it is. tomorrow all entitlements are done. no food stamps, no subsidised housing, no medicaid, no wic, no disability checks, no prescription assistance, no unemployment, no subsidised childcare....no anything that even resembles a government handout or assistance.
the government sends out letters cancelling all aid programs:
personal responsibility, go and do what you have to do to survive, the government is no longer going to help you in any way.
the government sends out letters cancelling all aid programs:
personal responsibility, go and do what you have to do to survive, the government is no longer going to help you in any way.
Touey
Well-known member
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thebigt
Legend
a man claiming to be daniel boone rode into town today on a horse, boone then pawned a antique flintlock rifle for a semi automatic rifle and proceeded to shoot 3 squirels. when police tried to arrest boone he rode away into the hills. a $10,000 reward has been posted for this wildman. boone was last seen living in a log cabin close to a place called ruby ridge. authorities have been notified and fbi swat teams are preparing to apprehend boone.
jimbuick
Legend
Saw this on FB, made me think of this thread lol.
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*For the record, I have no opinion on ACA. I dislike the idea of government subsidized anything (typically), and have seen government healthcare in the military (not good). But, believe we will have to wait and see what happens.
Invalid Link Removed
*For the record, I have no opinion on ACA. I dislike the idea of government subsidized anything (typically), and have seen government healthcare in the military (not good). But, believe we will have to wait and see what happens.
ax1
Legend
This is the reality that can happen any day. This country is broke, and if that day happens the goverment wont be mailing out cancellation forms either. If our economy collapses most people will be poor. Most people still dont believe we can actually truly go bankrupt.
Anyways, even with all those programs, poverty has not ceased, pain has not ceased, hungry has not ceased, homelessness has not ceased, etc.....they never will. Of course we want to do what we can to minimize it.
The best way to help people is to start with our currency and providing them with a stable currency and avoid inflation. For example, every-time the Federal Reserve prints 80 billion dollars out of thin air and pumps it into the economy (The current sequester budget,) poor people get hit the hardest as the little money they have buys them less and less. Their welfare checks and food stamps buys them less and less, its like getting a paycut but as long as the number is the same people dont really realize it.
Providing a currency thats actually authorized by our Constitution and is backed with gold and silver is far more stable and least likely to ever collapse into 0 value. You can buy a gallon of gasoline today with a silver dime, its worth between $3-$4. Having an unstable currency and consistently destroying its value (by printing it out of thin air, bailing out the mega-rich and artificially pumping it into the economy) as the Federal Reserve does always makes the poor and middle class less wealthy, and the wealthy wealthier.
Thats a start, a real good start....there are far more things that can be done without mandating everybody and having goverment grow and expand dangerous powers which in turn it becomes a practice of unethical social engineering. Id like to get into auditing the Federal Reserve which had been shown after a big fight for a partial tiny audit after the financial collapse to have over 16 trillion dollars in secret overseas transactions and bailouts, but thats a talk for another day.
thebigt
Legend
beau, it sounds like you are what back in the day was called a 'fortunate son' all the pieces came together for you, caught a few breaks, were born with above average inteligence and most likely had good parents as role models...you should consider yourself blessed, it sounds like you are living the good life...
i too consider myself a 'fortunate son', having been a drunken alcoholic for most of my life i was able to turn it around and find sobriety and a much better life...do i look down on those less fortunate who have not been able to find the path to sobriety, no... i feel it is my obligation and duty to help those who have not been so blessed as i have...i don't know why i was able to obtain something other's who are much brighter, better educated, and wealthier have not been able to find....i just consider myself blessed, and try to do anything i can to help those who may not be so fortunate as i am....
but for the grace of GOD there go i.....i feel sorry for those who would look down on those less fortunate!!!
texastea
New member
Amen!
Beau
Well-known member
I came from a very middle class family. My parents loved me. For both of those reasons, I am indeed very fortunate.
But, I have also worked my butt off for everything else that I have been blessed with. I refused financial help from my parents while in college; thinking that was my price to pay. I completed graduate school while working full time, with two little kids and remodeling a house.
After my ex-wife of 27 years had her first affair, I went through all the hard work to try to make it work. I gave my vow, even if she crapped on hers. And, I sure as hell did not want another man raising MY kids.
After her 2nd affair (get this, she was the Director of Contemporary Praise Music at our church and was having an affair with the Choir Director), I divorced her and had to rebuild myself financially after having to give her half of EVERYTHING and having to put my two two sons through college (since the inheritance left for my wife, that specifically included amounts to support the college tuition for my sons was withheld from my sons by my ex-wife, their so-called mother).
I can legitimately say, I have busted my ass.
What I do not respect is those that aren't willing to bust their ass, and then expect hand outs.
And not all misfortuned people fall into that group.
I do not look down on those less fortunate than me. In fact, through church and other ventures I try to help those that want to improve themselves.
As to God; yes, I agree 100%. I could not have gone through all of this and would not be where I am without God -- and I KNOW that.
thebigt
Legend
but you don't think people working at walmart for minimum wage bust their ass.....and are still below poverty level...c'mon man, you have to admit there is something inherintly wrong when the wealthiest nations largest employeer pays a wage that is FAR below poverty level.
Beau
Well-known member
If the best a person can do is work at Walmart, then - yes - they can bust their butt working at Walmart.
But, I believe they need to take inventory of why working at Walmart was the best they can do.
This may have been because they got a really raw deal. But it may have been because they were lazy and did not prepare (either to learn a good paying trade or by going to college).
Its the latter group I have an issue with.
Oh, and I do not see a Walmart job as being worth $14 an hour; I just don't. That someone can do very basic tasks, usually means they can earn a very basic wage. I believe it is wrong to overly reward under-performance. That is the "every kid gets a trophy" mentality that is driving us to not be able to compete in the world.
I am sure the corporate staff at Walmart do not earn minimum wage, because of their relative contribution to the bottom line.
ax1
Legend
You got a good heart bigt...always knew, and still do know.
thebigt
Legend
lol...you think in this economy $14 is 'overly rewarding'?
relative contribution to the bottom line...geez, let corporate staff try overnight stocking, or running a cash register...i bet walmart would survive with half as many corporate staff...try taking away half the hourly employees, who actually make walmart run. but i forgot you don't think hourly workers contibute to bottom line.
here is a clue for you...improving the bottom line starts with making the workers at the bottom feel like their contibution is important...something henry ford pioneered.
american business is run like a police state at the bottom. business looks to cut jobs at the bottom 1st instead of overpaid redundant corporate staff, even though 1 overpaid corporate staffer is worth a hundred or more workers salaries. mistrust between houly workers and business is at an all time high. business looks at workers as dispendable throw aways with little to no value, much like you stated...and workers look at business as trying to screw them every chance they get.
this is the problem...thinking that hourly workers contribution to the bottom line is insignificant to the bottom line is counterproductive to the bottom line, imo.
Beau
Well-known member
Yes, for those basic jobs whose primary qualification is a heartbeat.
thebigt
Legend
geez....thats ok, those people think you are very overly paid, i am sure, lol.
your company could probably survive without you...it couldn't survive without those 'heartbeats'. but at least they have a heart...j/k couldn't resist it
Touey
Well-known member
what a post what a thread learn more about everyone then most time here
ax1
Legend
My last low paying job was back in 04 at $7.50 an hour. It sucked, I couldnt get everything I wanted but I managed well to at least pay my rent, get enough food in to eat and a little more and I was generally probably happier back then than I am now. Life was so much more simpler.
thebigt
Legend
lol....$7.50 an hour is not paying for performance....it is telling that person that they don't give a crap about them and that they are an expendable piece of trash to be trown to the curb if they don't meet a standard reserved for a much higher rate of pay.
we need a modern day henry ford who realizes paying a fair wage and treating employees with respect is the best way to run a business.
ax1
Legend
The problem with many jobs such as wallmart is that they dont offer any incentive to work harder.
In my experience its very demotivating that your working twice as hard, and twice as fast as the guy next to you, and the most you get is a .35 cent annual raise...and the guy next to you gets the same thing.
I guarantee you will find people really working hard in retail if they cut out hourly pay and changed it to contract pay.
If you can get cashiers to work twice as fast, they can make twice as much money for example. I used to clear out people 3-4 times faster at register than some people next to me...but no reward, just a pat on the back.
There is alot of issues I have with the work model that make the quality of work and care far less efficient than it should.
thebigt
Legend
i agree...for management a lot of their salary is incentive based bonuses and meeting production goals, i don't understand why this hasn"t made it down to the employees who actually do the work...it just doesn't make sense to keep rewarding upper management, and not reward the people working harder and smarter to make it happen...it's kinda dumb, truthfully!!!
ax1
Legend
Thats why people form Union's so they can negotiate for their share. Any whispers of Union at Wallmart will probably get you terminated there, and they are not legally obligated to keep employees who do form a Union.
The Union has its own major drawbacks though as Ive seen first hand from personal experiences. Can backfire in many ways.
thebigt
Legend
yeah, lot of good being a union shop did me and my co-workers, lol.
i really think it has to be voluntary on the part of employers to once again recognise employees as assets rather than liabilities....with the influx of technology in the last few decades employers have put too much emphasis on machines and not enough on those who make the machines run, imo.
ax1
Legend
This is another factor to worry about...with increasing demands in wages, big companies will invest more in more robotic innovation to replace the workers.
thebigt
Legend
ax1
Legend
Is tech really getting more and more expensive? If you look at Apple, they are revolutionizing robotic manufacturing and have become one of the biggest, or officially biggest buyers of these types of robotic technology investing about 7 billion+ to get a competitive advantage over their adversaries. This is only going to trigger a domino effect throughout the industry and the rest of manufacturing as a whole as naturally this successful formula will be mimicked in all types of manufacturing industry.
If you ever looked at DARPA's (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) robotics and technology, your mind will be completely blown. Scary thing is that on average the goverment is between 25-50 years ahead of what they leak out to the public. Anyways point being is tech is going to get very very advanced in the next couple of decades, and get cheaper with time as we use advancing tech to advance itself. If people dont keep up with the times, many more are going to be left out.
Its going to get to the point where tech will be so advanced robots will have the ability to do just about everything on their own and people will not need to work the way we know it today. We are getting closer to a cusp of a complete civilization change.
Touey
Well-known member
one good thing on technology maybe they take notice of thread here and learn err of their way when they see everyone is on to now the shyster dealing and thieving
thebigt
Legend
wrong...the BAD thing about technology is they have the capacity to squash anyone or thing that gets in their way, they no longer care if we know they are up to no good!!! there is no way any kind of mass protest can happen without their knowing about it way before it happens, all the forms of communication are being monitored....we are living in an orwellian world!!!
Touey
Well-known member
I think that say sadly more about us then they