Obama

Clemenza said:
I think politicians ask God for guidance. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I just watched the short version film of what you just posted... and the pastor mentions "witchcraft" one time. All he says in the prayer is basically keep evils away from Palin and guide her towards righteousness so she can better serve the people in the political arena. Your headline "PALIN WITCHCRAFT" really misconstrues what went on in that video, and I believe you did that intentionally.

I'll take Palin's church over Obama's church(es)? any day of the week.
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The religion thing...Im not going to say right or wrong, people will interpret in different ways...generally atheists look at witchcraft or "evil," or them asking for guidance (some do claim they talk to god) is quite a bit foreign to us. I will respect your feelings and interpretation towards that though thanks for the response.
 
ax1 said:
The religion thing...Im not going to say right or wrong, people will interpret in different ways...generally atheists look at witchcraft or "evil," or them asking for guidance (some do claim they talk to god) is quite a bit foreign to us. I will respect your feelings and interpretation towards that though thanks for the response.
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I respect that.

However, what atheists need to respect is that America was founded on Judeo Christian values and laws. And in fact, atheists are actually somewhat foreign to Americans, as they only make up about 1% of the population.

I do not go to church btw.
 
Clemenza said:
I respect that.

However, what atheists need to respect is that America was founded on Judeo Christian values and laws. And in fact, atheists are actually somewhat foreign to Americans, as they only make up about 1% of the population.

I do not go to church btw.
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Thats subject to debate. Jesus, Christianity, Bible, Creator, God are not words found in our constitution.

Also its quite specific, [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]
"no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3)[/FONT]

So there is an apparent effort not to make America bound to any religious laws. This was to provide equal values for both religious and non-religious people, which in my opinion is a very good thing.
 
Clemenza said:
Whoa whoa whoa... take a look at your post. You started in with the "BUSH/PALIN ARE IDIOTS BC OF SPEAKING GAFTS". That's straight out of the democrat party/left wing handbook. To say Bush is an idiot bc he mumbles his words, is a little shallow. Call him an idiot because he spent billions of dollars bailing out banks that should have gone under.

You want to take religion out of politics? Then you're going to have to change the constitution. Good luck.
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Bush is an idiot because of his policies and the millions of speaking gaffes (not gafts FWIW). Palin is an idiot because her words paint her as an idiot. Her lack of foreign policy knowledge was scary when she could have been one step away from commander in chief. I don't see how anyone could think otherwise. A simple google search will bring up countless "does she have a clue when it comes to anything foreign policy?" Side-stepping that with anything from "but the left, the left, the left!" won't change my opinion.

As for religion we have a separation of church and state established in the Constitution and yet every politician wants to talk about how "faith" will guide their policies. We have no official religion and faith ideally would play no role in politics. Obviously many might disagree with that, but in my opinion that would be ideal.
 
ax1 said:
Thats subject to debate. Jesus, Christianity, Bible, Creator, God are not words found in our constitution.

Also its quite specific, [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]
"no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3)[/FONT]

So there is an apparent effort not to make America bound to any religious laws. This was to provide equal values for both religious and non-religious people, which in my opinion is a very good thing.
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Spot on sir.
 
Palin is a moron who appeals to, never mind, not even going to state it because it will come off as elitist. But you can see where I'm going with that.
 
ax1 said:
Thats subject to debate. Jesus, Christianity, Bible, Creator, God are not words found in our constitution.

Also its quite specific,
"no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3)

So there is an apparent effort not to make America bound to any religious laws. This was to provide equal values for both religious and non-religious people, which in my opinion is a very good thing.
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The right to LIFE. Found in constitution. Thou shall not kill/God gives life, in the bible. The Declaration of Independence DOES mention Creator. So the founding fathers intentions regarding law did in fact stem from religion. I don't know how anyone can deny that.
 
Geoforce said:
Bush is an idiot because of his policies and the millions of speaking gaffes (not gafts FWIW). Palin is an idiot because her words paint her as an idiot. Her lack of foreign policy knowledge was scary when she could have been one step away from commander in chief. I don't see how anyone could think otherwise. A simple google search will bring up countless "does she have a clue when it comes to anything foreign policy?" Side-stepping that with anything from "but the left, the left, the left!" won't change my opinion.

As for religion we have a separation of church and state established in the Constitution and yet every politician wants to talk about how "faith" will guide their policies. We have no official religion and faith ideally would play no role in politics. Obviously many might disagree with that, but in my opinion that would be ideal.
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Lol you really do take language GAFFES seriously.

I'm not going to sit here and defend Palin and Bush and the GOP. But to make fun of them because of word slips and their churches is VERY juvenile and falls right into the "dem vs. repub" BS. Like a Hannity argument. Shallow and short sighted. No thanks.

Which of our politicians in your opinion is NOT an idiot?
 
Clemenza said:
The right to LIFE. Found in constitution. Thou shall not kill/God gives life, in the bible. The Declaration of Independence DOES mention Creator. So the founding fathers intentions regarding law did in fact stem from religion. I don't know how anyone can deny that.
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The whole abortion debate boils down to the argument of when does life begin?

And the Bible was not the first book/system to have not committing murder as a guideline. Suggesting the founding fathers took all their thoughts on laws from the Bible is simply impossible to prove.
 
Clemenza said:
The right to LIFE. Found in constitution. Thou shall not kill/God gives life, in the bible. The Declaration of Independence DOES mention Creator. So the founding fathers intentions regarding law did in fact stem from religion. I don't know how anyone can deny that.
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Atheist can believe in the right to life and not killing too, dont you think? Were Christians wrong? Of course not, but it doesnt make the right to life and not killing exclusive to a particular religion.

We also have the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 which wanted to specifically clarify that the US was not funded by religion.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

You can account for the Declaration of Independence, but its a historical document, not constitutional document. We follow laws of the constitution not a historical document.

Also Jefferson's original quote was, "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable."

Congress later on changed the phrase to make it sound more religious. It was changed to, ""All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights."
 
Clemenza said:
Lol you really do take language GAFFES seriously.

I'm not going to sit here and defend Palin and Bush and the GOP. But to make fun of them because of word slips and their churches is VERY juvenile and falls right into the "dem vs. repub" BS. Like a Hannity argument. Shallow and short sighted. No thanks.

Which of our politicians in your opinion is NOT an idiot?
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Oh it's not a dem vs. repub thing, I think trying to argue which side is crappier is futile. I don't see how it's a word slip when every time Palin was asked a question she failed basic social studies skills. That's a slippery slide apparently. I have no idea which of our politicians is not an idiot. Even the intelligent ones end up getting bought and paid for with corporate money and fall slave to the prison complex, war machine, etc.
 
Clemenza said:
They look Christian to me...

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Plenty of evidence exists that many of them may not have been. And that list has deists on that who likely did not believe in a Christian god. Not to mention many people on that list have said some pretty damn negative things about faith.

This has been argued many times and we could both find ammo for our arguments. Invalid Link Removed

It is really irrelevant to me. We have a separation of church and state and no official religion by design. What our founders believed does not change this since they were the ones who put that separation and distinctions in.
 
ax1, I have a serious question...

It honestly seems to me that atheists fear the idea of religion. Why is this? Why does it offend atheists when they see a cross or star of david in a public place? I am not Jewish and a star of david does not bother me. I live next door to hasidic jews and I am very close with them and respect their religion and their devotion to their religion, even though I do not believe in their theology.

I do not believe in Mormonism but I respect the strict moral code true Mormon's follow. I've actually never met a Mormon I did not like.

I have no problem with atheists being atheists and not wearing a cross.

And this "atheist" I am speaking of may not be you exactly, but being an atheist what do you think the reason is for this?
 
Geoforce said:
Plenty of evidence exists that many of them may not have been. And that list has deists on that who likely did not believe in a Christian god.

This has been argued many times and we could both find ammo for our arguments. Invalid Link Removed

It is really irrelevant to me. We have a separation of church and state and no official religion by design. What our founders believed does not change this since they were the ones who put that separation and distinctions in.
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I agree. But I do not believe any of them were complete atheists.

They wrote of Freedom OF Religion. Not Freedom FROM Religion.
 
Clemenza said:
They look Christian to me...

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Thats an interesting link. They refer to 95 senators and representatives, but our "key" founding fathers are regarded as 7 people who are,


  • John Adams
  • Benjamin Franklin
  • Alexander Hamilton

  • John Jay
  • Thomas Jefferson

  • James Madison
  • George Washington

Out of our 7 founding fathers, only John Jay was a Orthodox Christian. He actually even fought to have Catholics barred from holding office, although unsuccessful.
 
Clemenza said:
I agree. But I do not believe any of them were complete atheists.

They wrote of Freedom OF Religion. Not Freedom FROM Religion.
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I'm not sure why you're making this strawman argument. Atheists or not is irrelevant. It was and still is my opinion that politics would be better off without people making "faith" based decisions. Personally I don't want my President saying "I prayed to God and he told me we need to bomb XXX." I would rather my leaders made decisions based on logic, reason, and rational argument. This is what I mean when I say I want religion out of politics. It does not bother me one bit what someone believes, but ideally I think our leaders should make decisions based on reason. I don't want my leader saying "we're going to quit doing XXX and put it in God's hands." If that makes me weird or going against what you think the founders thought so be it.
 
Clemenza said:
ax1, I have a serious question...

It honestly seems to me that atheists fear the idea of religion. Why is this? Why does it offend atheists when they see a cross or star of david in a public place? I am not Jewish and a star of david does not bother me. I live next door to hasidic jews and I am very close with them and respect their religion and their devotion to their religion, even though I do not believe in their theology.

I do not believe in Mormonism but I respect the strict moral code true Mormon's follow. I've actually never met a Mormon I did not like.

I have no problem with atheists being atheists and not wearing a cross.

And this "atheist" I am speaking of may not be you exactly, but being an atheist what do you think the reason is for this?
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I dont know why atheists have a fear of the idea or religion. I prefer unity and respect over division.

I think this is more of a matter of an individual to individual opinion rather than judging by categorizing as a whole and their train of thought.

Personally, when I get to know people I dont care what their religion is, or if they are more into it than others.

When it comes to people who have political influential decisions on war and claim they talk to someone that I cant see or hear, I have concerns.

If a politician is simply praying for basic guidance that they succeed and have the intellegence to make good decisions on their own that doesnt bother me one bit.

Thats just me though, I dont speak for any group as a whole, but I think its important to judge people as an individual rather than group/affiliation when it comes to both religion and politics. We do have the kkk, thats a bit different, lol
 
Geoforce said:
I'm not sure why you're making this strawman argument. Atheists or not is irrelevant. It was and still is my opinion that politics would be better off without people making "faith" based decisions. Personally I don't want my President saying "I prayed to God and he told me we need to bomb XXX." I would rather my leaders made decisions based on logic, reason, and rational argument. This is what I mean when I say I want religion out of politics. It does not bother me one bit what someone believes, but ideally I think our leaders should make decisions based on reason. I don't want my leader saying "we're going to quit doing XXX and put it in God's hands." If that makes me weird or going against what you think the founders thought so be it.
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This is what I mean when I say I do not understand why atheists or whoever else FEAR religion.

Would you prefer a law banning all politicians from praying, going to church, saying "God" in public?

Strawman argument. What you "WANT" is freedom FROM religion. That is exactly what the founding fathers were trying to prevent. And the reason the law states Freedom OF Religion.

Not to mention Freedom OF Speech.

Sounds like you're not in favor of the two.
 
Clemenza said:
This is what I mean when I say I do not understand why atheists or whoever else FEAR religion.

Would you prefer a law banning all politicians from praying, going to church, saying "God" in public?

Strawman argument. What you "WANT" is freedom FROM religion. That is exactly what the founding fathers were trying to prevent. And the reason the law states Freedom OF Religion.

Not to mention Freedom OF Speech.

Sounds like you're not in favor of the two.
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The leaps you make from what I'm saying to what you want me to be saying are shocking and signs of poor arguing technique. What Ax and I are saying is virtually the same thing. If you want to pretend it's me saying politicians shouldn't be allowed to pray, that I want freedom from religion, or that I'm anti-free speech have at it. It's hard to discuss things if you're going to make strawmen every time I post and force me to defend positions I'm not taking.

Reread my post, read Ax's post. We are saying the same thing. And neither of us are saying anything close to what you wrote here. I have no problems with what someone believes, atheist, agnostic, muslim, jew, etc. I would prefer our elected leaders made decisions based on logic and reason. This doesn't mean they can't be religious by any means.
 
It's actually impossible to tell if that audio is genuine to that video. And for that matter, it's impossible to tell if the woman is actually even Sarah Palin.
 
southpaw23 said:
Religion should be RESPECTED but kept "personal" and entirely out of policy making decisions, period.
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Why do you hate Christians, Muslims, Jews, kids, George Washington, free speech, the right to bear arms, rainbows, and the elderly?
 
Clemenza said:
They look Christian to me...

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They are actually pagan, many of which were Egyptian. Take a look at the oath of clearance in the book of the dead.

Also, our founding fathers were predominantly deists not judeo-Christian. Just an FYI
 
powerman2000 said:
Isn't that what the founding fathers wanted?
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Except, it's always being dragged into the discussion. See above. My point is religion all too often permeates itself into political discourse. Whatever beliefs this country was founded on, remember this, times evolve and so has the populous of this country.
 
Geoforce said:
The leaps you make from what I'm saying to what you want me to be saying are shocking and signs of poor arguing technique. What Ax and I are saying is virtually the same thing. If you want to pretend it's me saying politicians shouldn't be allowed to pray, that I want freedom from religion, or that I'm anti-free speech have at it. It's hard to discuss things if you're going to make strawmen every time I post and force me to defend positions I'm not taking.

Reread my post, read Ax's post. We are saying the same thing. And neither of us are saying anything close to what you wrote here. I have no problems with what someone believes, atheist, agnostic, muslim, jew, etc. I would prefer our elected leaders made decisions based on logic and reason. This doesn't mean they can't be religious by any means.
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What elected leaders made decisions based on what "God told them to do"?

What exactly am I missing? I'm reading your posts over and over. You said it bothers you that politicans make faith based decisions. But it's okay for them to be religious...

So what's the point of being religious if you don't use those religious teachings in decisions you make in your every day life?
 
Clemenza said:
What elected leaders made decisions based on what "God told them to do"?

What exactly am I missing? I'm reading your posts over and over. You said it bothers you that politicans make faith based decisions. But it's okay for them to be religious...

So what's the point of being religious if you don't use those religious teachings in decisions you make in your every day life?
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I understand your confusion a it is a thin line. A good example is George W. saying
God told h to invade Iraq. Wtf? That is a scary proposition for the leader of the free world.
 
Clemenza said:
What elected leaders made decisions based on what "God told them to do"?

What exactly am I missing? I'm reading your posts over and over. You said it bothers you that politicans make faith based decisions. But it's okay for them to be religious...

So what's the point of being religious if you don't use those religious teachings in decisions you make in your every day life?
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It's one thing to use religious teaching in YOUR own life, however, the lines get blurred when you begin to use them to craft policies that impact other peoples' lives, therein lies the difference.
 
AE14 said:
They are actually pagan, many of which were Egyptian. Take a look at the oath of clearance in the book of the dead.

Also, our founding fathers were predominantly deists not judeo-Christian. Just an FYI
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Deists believe in one God. The idea of ONE God came from Judaism did it not?

There are actually Christian Deists which don't necessarily believe in the exactly divine intervention and miracles of Jesus, but believe in his moral teachings.
 
southpaw23 said:
It's one thing to use religious teaching in YOUR own life, however, the lines get blurred when you begin to use them to craft policies that impact other peoples' lives, therein lies the difference.
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I agree 100%. But can't every policy brought forth, whether religious based or not, be perceived to be "religious"?

It's a fine line.
 
Clemenza said:
Deists believe in one God. The idea of ONE God came from Judaism did it not?

There are actually Christian Deists which don't necessarily believe in the exactly divine intervention and miracles of Jesus, but believe in his moral teachings.
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Actually no...not
Judaism. Monotheism goes back to atenism in Egypt under Akhenaton at the end of the 18th dynasty.

Also a deist believes in an impersonal god, "the great architect" who created the universe etc.. And left us to our devices.
 
AE14 said:
I understand your confusion a it is a thin line. A good example is George W. saying
God told h to invade Iraq. Wtf? That is a scary proposition for the leader of the free world.
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lol I honestly don't remember his saying that.

I do remember him saying he prayed a lot.
 
AE14 said:
I understand your confusion a it is a thin line. A good example is George W. saying
God told h to invade Iraq. Wtf? That is a scary proposition for the leader of the free world.
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That's scary as **** and honestly I can't see how anyone religious or non religious could disagree. Another example is what Santorum said about Kennedy recently. I don't think it's weird for people to want leaders to make decisions based on logic and reason. I'd think that's something people of all faiths and non faiths could agree with.
 
Clemenza said:
lol I honestly don't remember his saying that.

I do remember him saying he prayed a lot.
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Freaked me out as well. He was 1 of a kind...unless Santorum somehow won. Lol
 
powerman2000 said:
It's actually impossible to tell if that audio is genuine to that video. And for that matter, it's impossible to tell if the woman is actually even Sarah Palin.
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Thats true. Her husband is there next to her though, as well as head of the AIP. I do think with confident certainty its does look like Palin.

I did first see this years ago on that Keith Olberman show...he also reported how the minister went to africa to find out why someone died. He accused some lady of a village of being a witch and the entire village rebelled and drove her out. Do I think its true? Certainly cannot conclude on that.

Anyways you bring up a point I agree with, skepticism is good.
 
AE14 said:
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I believe this is the one
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Come on. You can't be serious posting this like it's legit.

"One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it." "

This is nothing more than hearsay from someone who obviously thinks Bush is anti Palestinian.

Come on guys.
 
Clemenza said:
It's not just where it comes from...

It quotes one Palestinian QUOTING Bush.
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It's a first hand account being told to the BBC. Again, as has been discussed in this thread, it truly does depend on what you consider reputable news
 
It's amazing that the past few pages of this thread were based on whether or not a politician should be allowed to make decisions based on faith. A few of you actually quoted Bush saying that he bombed a country because God talks to him and told him to. With all the media, youtube, video phones etc etc and I still have not seen or heard Bush ever say that. And trust me if he did, it would have been all over the media. AE, if the BBC article you posted had the slightest bit of credibility, trust me we would have seen it all over MSNBC/CNN years ago.

Low fear tactics from the non religious it seems.

If a politician wishes to pray in public or speak of his faith in public or even make decisions with the help of his faith, then the constitution allows for it. If it scares you that a politician would make decisions in his life based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, then you should read up on Jesus Christ's teachings and you'll probably find they are very peaceful to say the least.
 
What I always ask is....Has there ever been a true to faith Christian president?

What would Jesus do if he was in office, bomb Iraq?
 
ax1 said:
What I always ask is....Has there ever been a true to faith Christian president?

What would Jesus do if he was in office, bomb Iraq?
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Good point. And that's a whole seperate issue based on the interpretation of the religion. And as we can see every religion can be interpreted differently. This however does not debase these religious, but I think for the most part if the religious teaches peace then it is good.
 
Geoforce said:
So hypothetically speaking, real or not we completely agree. A politician using faith for a decision like this is scary.
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Faith to guide him is not scary at all. IMO it is comforting.

A politician saying God speaks directly to him and tells him to drop a bomb should be in a straight jacket.

lol like I said I've never heard Bush say anything like that. That article is hearsay and not conclusive, I think you'd agree.
 
Clemenza said:
I. AE, if the BBC article you posted had the slightest bit of credibility, trust me we would have seen it all over MSNBC/CNN years ago.

Low fear tactics from the non religious it seems.

.
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Surprised ax hasn't jumped in on this comment.
 
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