Nutraplanet ATD Dosing
- Thread starter Hitstick
- Start date
Hitstick
Member
Yeah, ive done Novedex XT before and i saw decent gains with that. Ive read up on Trione and Formestane, but im a college student on a budget so they were too expensive. I am looking pretty tight because i had to reorder multi, creatine, protein, i was out of everything.
Plus, Formestane and E-form have a mild Ph in them im pretty sure. I read Neoborn's FAQ and i believe thats what he said, and id like to stay as natural as possible. Im only going to resort to Ph's after my body refuses to make gains and i dont see that happening for a long time.
Plus, Formestane and E-form have a mild Ph in them im pretty sure. I read Neoborn's FAQ and i believe thats what he said, and id like to stay as natural as possible. Im only going to resort to Ph's after my body refuses to make gains and i dont see that happening for a long time.
heebs10
Well-known member
ATD is a steroidal AI. just putting that out there. also going to add that 3 caps (75mg) is going to really drop your libido, not exactly what you want while in collage IMO.
Hitstick
Member
Yeah, i do know that is is steroidal but not to the point of calling it a prohormone or AAS. Like i said i took novedex up to 4 pills and they both have 3, 17-keto in them, and i didnt notice a huge dip in libido. Some of the times i think its nice to not think about sex 24/7 and maybe an exam or two.
poopypants
Banned
I personally always experience a RISE in libido with RXT and NP generic ATD both... even juggs Test drive did it... it just effects everyone differently, people need to realize this is true with almost any supplement, mileage may vary.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
You really only need to take a suicidal AI once per day. After dinner with some oil and you're golden.
Start with one cap, and if you're up for it, move up to 2. I really don't see much benefit in going higher. Estrogen has a synergistic anabolic effect that works with testosterone; hence, the ideal of using a suicidal AI is to tweak the testosterone:estrogen ratio just enough to still maintain a high enough estrogen concentration to keep this synergy.
Start with one cap, and if you're up for it, move up to 2. I really don't see much benefit in going higher. Estrogen has a synergistic anabolic effect that works with testosterone; hence, the ideal of using a suicidal AI is to tweak the testosterone:estrogen ratio just enough to still maintain a high enough estrogen concentration to keep this synergy.
machine528
Member
I took Giant ATD about a year back and when i got up to 75 mg's a day my joints were destroyed, i was lethargic and my libido had been completly executed. If i run it at 25mg a day i feel great, notice myself leaning out, joints are fine and libido seems to greater.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
This is what I came in here to write.
thundergod
Well-known member
Right on sinner! We all need to realize that more is NOT always better! You can't go butt-crazy on AI's. Moderation is the key. I also agree ATD can drop the libido and I suggest switching to a low dose transdermal formestane. It's no more "prohormone" than Novedex XT.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
There's actually quite a few drugs (Piracetam comes to mind) which clinical evidence shows their benefits to operate on a "bell curve", meaning there's a "sweet spot" to shoot for to have good results.
I think ATD is another good example. A little bit goes a long way, and a lotta bit brings you down a long way.
I think ATD is another good example. A little bit goes a long way, and a lotta bit brings you down a long way.
Al Shades
Member
Trione (6-oxo) is an evolutionary step backwards from ATD (triene).
How is it better? I have heard the opposite.
Does anyone know the mechanism of action by which AI's decrease libido?
This effect would not seem to be desireable given their usage and marketing as post cycle therapy aids.
Learning this bit of information makes me feel like skipping PCT altogether for my epistane pulse.
However, I will still go with a solid test booster and transdermal AI, either E-form or Dermacrine Sustain.
Why would something that supposedly elevates test levels through the roof (Gaspari NXT) kill libido?
poopypants
Banned
I probally wouldnt run it for longer then 60 days jsut so you can give your body a break for a little bit, then start again in 30 days if you like.
I actually did a solo run of RXT (first ATD product) at 75mg ed and had really positive effects strength wise, I felt great. Wasnt paying attention to libido back then since I lived In AZ and my girly at the time lived in CA.... but i do remember the weekends i visited her I had no problem with hittin home runs...
I dosed it 25mg ed with a TRN cycle also, a compound some say lowers libido as well, and definately had an increase in libido with random uncontrolable wood sometimes... felt like i was 13 again going through puberty.
thundergod
Well-known member
It's like you have said before poopy, everybody reacts differently to different compounds. I think one should start ATD at 50 mg. per day in 2 divided doses of 25 mg. each dose. Then if you feel the libido going "down" then lower the dosage. If you feel great, go up to 75 mg. per day in 3 divided doses. I would NOT run any higher however. Strong stuff!
wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
I'm currently 190 lbs and 25mg is too much for me. I take it 4-5 days a week to let some estrgen come back. Zits like crazy too.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
I would take it every other day.
One question I have been asking for years is "What is the resynthesis time for aromatase enzyme, given the use of a suicide inhibitor?"
I would love to be able to run a study to answer that question.
thundergod
Well-known member
I would love to see a study on this also. We all may be taking more aromatase inhibitors than we actually need to do the job we want it to. I've heard differing opinions on this ranging from days to weeks. I even read somewhere like 22 weeks! That is very improbable. But we would ALL save money if we were to find out that less is neeeded than what we are taking. Somebody, do a study!!!
thundergod
Well-known member
Weakpoint---I wouldn't consider divanil an AI at all. It binds to SHBG(sex hormone binding globulin) to free up testosterone to do its anabolic job. I have personally stacked 2 AI's with good success, Transdermal formestane and transdermal androstenetrione. Myself and others find these 2 work well together. Take each in lesser doses than you would using only 1 of the 2.
thundergod
Well-known member
They go together like chocolate and peanut butter! Oh, this diet is killing me!!!
WeakPoint
Member
I'm guessing thats a good thing? I personally HATE peanut butter for some reason with jelly...its delic.
thundergod
Well-known member
Yeah, it's a great thing! You would love divanil plus ATD!!
poopypants
Banned
it would actually be agreat stack at maximizing natty test utilization.
Divanil will free up bound test so it can be used (as free test) but once its unbound from the SHBG then its sucseptible to aromitization into estrogen making it not only useless again but the exact oppisite of what you want. so taking ATD an Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) is exactly what you want to take. This is exactly why Designer Supplements has the NHA stack of Rebound (atd) and Activate Extreme (divanil and other stuff) and also Anabolic Xtreme has the Mass Stack with Mass FX (divanil and 25rdiol, plus in the new one 11-alpha ecdysterone) and Hyperdrol X2 (6-Bromo wich is another AI one that doesnt cause a loss in libido like ATD can).
So obviously these companies know exactly what they are doing by offering these stacks, and with the added ingredients along with the base AI and Divanil they are just that much more effective, although you can def achieve a similar but less potent result using your own bulks as you were planning.
motiv8er
Well-known member
I get a temporary rise (no pun intended) then a great drop off at normal doses.
poopypants
Banned
ya I went back and looked and realized that at a 50mg dose the same thing happened, for a while I had a big rise in libido, then it leveled off, not really fropping below norm, but then once I discontinued it again it skyrocketed again!
My guess is that there is a "just right" balance of slightly lowered est taht brings a boost in libido but too much est suppresion spells disaster for the libido.
poopypants
Banned
agreed, even more so I quite like 6-Bromo.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
This is kind of what I was getting at.
Say it takes 3 weeks for aromatase enzyme to be "resynthesized" once knocked out. If, say, 50mg of ATD knocks out 20% of aromatase then after a week or so at this dosing you will be near zero enzyme activity (disaster for libido).
What I want to figure out is the perfect dosing scheme...,maybe 50mg every 3-4 days.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Taking once or twice per week does not sound like a bad idea, but your rationale is a little iffy.
If 50mg hypothetically knocks out 20% of aromatase after the first dose, it will knock out <20% the second dose, <<20% the third dose, and so on and so forth until it's eliminating aromatase as fast as it is reforming.
This is because as the total amount of enzyme decreases, the concentration decreases; therefore, the likelihood of ATD to come in contact with the enzyme greatly decreases.
It is easier to hook up with a lady when there's 500 women at the club than when there's 5.
Hank Vangut
Well-known member
for some reason it's just as hard for me when there are 500 women.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Agreed...that is why I try not to post when I an in a hurry.
You are absolutely correct, though. I am leaning towards the twice a week, 50mg dose, which I will be trying as soon as I reorder the ATD.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
In chemistry, however, the forces of attraction obey Coulomb's law. Carbon and Oxygen, lemme tell ya, these guys got game.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Sounds like a decent plan. 1 thing of NP's ATD will freaking last you forever, if you do it that way.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Well THAT will never do....we have to buy MORE MORE MORE and SPEND SPEND SPEND...god forbid we figure a way to maximize benefit at a super low cost.
Guest
Guest
Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
Kaplan ME, McGinnis MY.
Department of Anatomy, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, CUNY, New York 10029.
The aromatization hypothesis asserts that testosterone (T) must be aromatized to estradiol (E2) to activate copulatory behavior in the male rat. In support of this hypothesis, the aromatization inhibitor, ATD, has been found to suppress male sexual behavior in T-treated rats. In our experiment, we first replicated this finding by peripherally injecting ATD (15 mg/day) or propylene glycol into T-treated (two 10-mm Silastic capsules) or control castrated male rats. In a second experiment, we bilaterally implanted either ATD-filled or blank cannulae into the medial preoptic area (MPOA) of either T-treated or control castrated male rats. With this more local distribution of ATD, a lesser decline in sexual behavior was found, suggesting that other brain areas are involved in the neurohormonal activation of copulatory behavior in the male rat. To determine whether in vivo ATD interacts with androgen or estrogen receptors, we conducted cell nuclear androgen and estrogen receptor binding assays of hypothalamus, preoptic area, amygdala, and septum following treatment with the combinations of systemic T alone. ATD plus T, ATD alone, and blank control. In all four brain areas binding of T to androgen receptors was significantly decreased in the presence of ATD, suggesting that ATD may act both as an androgen receptor blocker and as an aromatization inhibitor. Competitive binding studies indicated that ATD competes in vitro for cytosol androgen receptors, thus substantiating the in vivo antiandrogenic effects of ATD. Cell nuclear estrogen receptor binding was not significantly increased by exposure to T in the physiological range. No agonistic properties of ATD were observed either behaviorally or biochemically. Thus, an alternative explanation for the inhibitory effects of ATD on male sexual behavior is that ATD prevents T from binding to androgen receptors.
PMID: 2925181 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androge...[Horm Behav. 1989] - PubMed Result
Kaplan ME, McGinnis MY.
Department of Anatomy, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, CUNY, New York 10029.
The aromatization hypothesis asserts that testosterone (T) must be aromatized to estradiol (E2) to activate copulatory behavior in the male rat. In support of this hypothesis, the aromatization inhibitor, ATD, has been found to suppress male sexual behavior in T-treated rats. In our experiment, we first replicated this finding by peripherally injecting ATD (15 mg/day) or propylene glycol into T-treated (two 10-mm Silastic capsules) or control castrated male rats. In a second experiment, we bilaterally implanted either ATD-filled or blank cannulae into the medial preoptic area (MPOA) of either T-treated or control castrated male rats. With this more local distribution of ATD, a lesser decline in sexual behavior was found, suggesting that other brain areas are involved in the neurohormonal activation of copulatory behavior in the male rat. To determine whether in vivo ATD interacts with androgen or estrogen receptors, we conducted cell nuclear androgen and estrogen receptor binding assays of hypothalamus, preoptic area, amygdala, and septum following treatment with the combinations of systemic T alone. ATD plus T, ATD alone, and blank control. In all four brain areas binding of T to androgen receptors was significantly decreased in the presence of ATD, suggesting that ATD may act both as an androgen receptor blocker and as an aromatization inhibitor. Competitive binding studies indicated that ATD competes in vitro for cytosol androgen receptors, thus substantiating the in vivo antiandrogenic effects of ATD. Cell nuclear estrogen receptor binding was not significantly increased by exposure to T in the physiological range. No agonistic properties of ATD were observed either behaviorally or biochemically. Thus, an alternative explanation for the inhibitory effects of ATD on male sexual behavior is that ATD prevents T from binding to androgen receptors.
PMID: 2925181 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androge...[Horm Behav. 1989] - PubMed Result
poopypants
Banned
that study matches exactly with what was being discussed in this thread a while back....
Invalid Link Removed
I wonder if a study can be found regarding the resynthisizing time of Aromatase :think:
I guess the biggest thing though in our case would be just how often to dose the ATD to maintain a slightly lower then norm level....
well I still have a bottle here next to me of at least 60pills of nutra ATD that i actually split into half size ~12.5mg just by volume(dont know exact due to fillers) just cause I wanted to be able to dose a continuosly lower dose in an attempt to achieve this very thing. Didnt notice much from it at 12.5mg/ed but I did notice nipple sensativity drop with no negative effect on libido.... might just be too often still or instead be too small an amount to make it through the gut and liver to really get enough aromatase to boost libido.... thoughts on this method?
Invalid Link Removed
I wonder if a study can be found regarding the resynthisizing time of Aromatase :think:
I guess the biggest thing though in our case would be just how often to dose the ATD to maintain a slightly lower then norm level....
well I still have a bottle here next to me of at least 60pills of nutra ATD that i actually split into half size ~12.5mg just by volume(dont know exact due to fillers) just cause I wanted to be able to dose a continuosly lower dose in an attempt to achieve this very thing. Didnt notice much from it at 12.5mg/ed but I did notice nipple sensativity drop with no negative effect on libido.... might just be too often still or instead be too small an amount to make it through the gut and liver to really get enough aromatase to boost libido.... thoughts on this method?
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Sx/y, the selectivity term, is expressed as rx/ry; where rx and ry are reaction rates.
reaction rates in this case are one to one, making their case simple to go about.
rx = kx[ATD]*[Aromatase]
ry= ky[ATD]*[AR's]
*note: [AR's] doesn't really work like this, but for simplicity's sake, since a small few are still with me anyhow, we'll pretend it's a liquid phase reaction.
It is known that ATD has an affinity for AR's; however, it has a greater affinity for aromatase, thus Sx/y>1.
Let it also be known that the inhibition of aromatase leads to an increase in free testosterone. Sy/t is also greater than one, meaning that testosterone is more likely to bind to the AR's than ATD is.
Blah blah blah, theoretical blah, point where two differential curves meet, blah blah blah; therefore, this further supports the idea of taking ATD 2-3x per week.
reaction rates in this case are one to one, making their case simple to go about.
rx = kx[ATD]*[Aromatase]
ry= ky[ATD]*[AR's]
*note: [AR's] doesn't really work like this, but for simplicity's sake, since a small few are still with me anyhow, we'll pretend it's a liquid phase reaction.
It is known that ATD has an affinity for AR's; however, it has a greater affinity for aromatase, thus Sx/y>1.
Let it also be known that the inhibition of aromatase leads to an increase in free testosterone. Sy/t is also greater than one, meaning that testosterone is more likely to bind to the AR's than ATD is.
Blah blah blah, theoretical blah, point where two differential curves meet, blah blah blah; therefore, this further supports the idea of taking ATD 2-3x per week.
Guest
Guest
This was posted over at bb.com from another member so not sure what the full text states but just putting it out there so you guys can make good decisions..
take care