now THIS is a lot of green

[CDB]

Evidently the majority of the citizens of the United Stated do not agree with you. We have elections and the "scumbags" in the White house and the Capital were all voted for by the majority.

Last time I checked voter turn out was pretty low and there's a good 30-50% of people whose 'votes' weren't counted at any given time. I would wonder what they have to say about agreeing with DC. Second to that, majority rule is stupid and I've said before I don't agree with it. That the left half of the bell curve plus one other person thinks something is a good idea doesn't make it so.

I vote in every election I can. The politician I vote for doesn't always win, but I don't feel like my government is out to get me...(Unless Hilary wins the Presidency...)

Or until you're busted with some 'roids and just enough for one cycle for you is, because of the way units are handled, deemed enough to qualify as intent to distribute, and your ass gets thrown in jail for a few decades. Which also makes me wonder, RE your above statement, how many of the disenfranchised in our country "agree" with out current leaders.

As a soldier, you do not question orders that are given to you. You do what you are told. It will save your life.

Okay, go cut that baby's head off then, or bomb that civilian facility. This is the BS I'm talking about in my other post. Questioning orders is what defines patriotism. Blindly doing something on order without regard to whether or not it is right or wrong is not patriotism or even duty, it's submission.

I don't understand how your freedom is in threat by our government. What are you doing that you feel this way?

Well, let's see...

There are certain substances I and others here occasionally use which, if the government knew about, would land us in prison. I wanted to cross the street the other day and you'd think as a grown adult I could judge for myself where and when to cross, but there was a cop there handing out jay walking tickets. I wanted to build a shed last year and gave up the idea because building it "to code" was beyond my means and I couldn't figure out how demonstrably safer the code was, especially the color restrictions. I wanted to start a business once and then saw the morass of red tape, fees, licensing requirements etc. that were necessary just to get the venture off the ground. Etc., etc.,

If you were in one of those countries that "hate" us, after writing what you have written, you would get a visit by your "government" tonight and be whisked away and never heard from again.

See previous post. Being the best out of a bunch of losers doesn't make one great. I think you people are so tied up in what little freedom there is left in this country, and yes it is more than most others, that you've lost sight of what's been lost and what could have been, and might still be if more than a few could realize it in their minds.

 

[CDB]

i think that youd have to look at the Orders that the military is given. Its not the soldier that is making the decision to do these things its the powers that be telling him or her how and when to execute. Some serve because they still believe in the nation and hold true the orders that are given and will follow with a giving heart, others do it because there only motivation to do so in through consequence. but please do not blame the people (soldiers) that are just simply carring out there orders (its there job just like if you had to fire somebody) you hate to do it but you have to feed your family.

I don't blame them. I do question them. I've talked to a lot of Vietnam vets who, after years of thinking on the matter and holding no dishonor about what they did in the past, think the objecters had the right idea in that war. I'll say it again, putting on a uniform does not excuse a person from making moral and ethical judgements. The military is not made up of mindless idiots or machines, if it were it would be easier for me to not question them. I'm of the opinion in fact that it's the suspension of moral and ethican judgement so often needed to be a soldier that causes a lot of the mental problems some soldiers suffer after action. They were conditioned to do things that were against their nature, and then have to square that for the rest of their lives.

 

[anabolicrhino]

I don't blame them. I do question them. I've talked to a lot of Vietnam vets who, after years of thinking on the matter and holding no dishonor about what they did in the past, think the objecters had the right idea in that war. I'll say it again, putting on a uniform does not excuse a person from making moral and ethical judgements. The military is not made up of mindless idiots or machines, if it were it would be easier for me to not question them. I'm of the opinion in fact that it's the suspension of moral and ethican judgement so often needed to be a soldier that causes a lot of the mental problems some soldiers suffer after action. They were conditioned to do things that were against their nature, and then have to square that for the rest of their lives.

You as a free citizen have the right to question the soldiers. You also have the right to questions authority without the risk of retribution. The soldier does not have those same rights. a soldier may question an order, but does not have the right to refuse to obey. This is insubordination, an offense that is punishable with death. A soldier who questions an order " under fire " can be accused of " cowardice in the face of the enemy " this is another executable offense. A soldier who questions the motives of high command can be accused of " treason ", another executable offense. You can question the soldier's reason for enlistment, but it is unfair to question the motives of a soldier who dutifully follows orders. You can fairly question the motives of civilians, who support politicians who put soldiers in " harms way " for their own agenda!

 

[delta314]

You as a free citizen have the right to question the soldiers. You also have the right to questions authority without the risk of retribution. The soldier does not have those same rights. a soldier may question an order, but does not have the right to refuse to obey. This is insubordination, an offense that is punishable with death. A soldier who questions an order " under fire " can be accused of " cowardice in the face of the enemy " this is another executable offense. A soldier who questions the motives of high command can be accused of " treason ", another executable offense. You can question the soldier's reason for enlistment, but it is unfair to question the motives of a soldier who dutifully follows orders. You can fairly question the motives of civilians, who support politicians who put soldiers in " harms way " for their own agenda!

:clap2: :goodpost:

 

[delta314]

Last time I checked voter turn out was pretty low and there's a good 30-50% of people whose 'votes' weren't counted at any given time. I would wonder what they have to say about agreeing with DC. Second to that, majority rule is stupid and I've said before I don't agree with it. That the left half of the bell curve plus one other person thinks something is a good idea doesn't make it so.

Too bad. If you don't want to get out and vote, shut up. You have no right to speak. I vote. I guess we should go with the minority vote....I guess because you think it's stupid, it must be wrong.

Or until you're busted with some 'roids and just enough for one cycle for you is, because of the way units are handled, deemed enough to qualify as intent to distribute, and your ass gets thrown in jail for a few decades. Which also makes me wonder, RE your above statement, how many of the disenfranchised in our country "agree" with out current leaders.

I don't do AAS because they are illegal. If they weren't, I would. I obey the law, and enforce it, regardless of my personal views.

Okay, go cut that baby's head off then, or bomb that civilian facility. This is the BS I'm talking about in my other post. Questioning orders is what defines patriotism. Blindly doing something on order without regard to whether or not it is right or wrong is not patriotism or even duty, it's submission.

Don't be a fool. No American officer is going to tell his soldiers to cut off a babies head. You are just babbling.

Well, let's see...

There are certain substances I and others here occasionally use which, if the government knew about, would land us in prison. I wanted to cross the street the other day and you'd think as a grown adult I could judge for myself where and when to cross, but there was a cop there handing out jay walking tickets.

Cross at the designated crosswalk.

I wanted to build a shed last year and gave up the idea because building it "to code" was beyond my means and I couldn't figure out how demonstrably safer the code was, especially the color restrictions.

Move to a neighborhood that doesn't have those restrictions.

I wanted to start a business once and then saw the morass of red tape, fees, licensing requirements etc. that were necessary just to get the venture off the ground. Etc., etc.,

Blah blah blah....who cares that you don't want to do what every other business owner has to do.

See previous post. Being the best out of a bunch of losers doesn't make one great. I think you people are so tied up in what little freedom there is left in this country, and yes it is more than most others, that you've lost sight of what's been lost and what could have been, and might still be if more than a few could realize it in their minds.

No losers here sport. Maybe you consider yourself a loser, but I don't. If you are so dis-content living here, move. You sound like everyone that gets arrested. "Why you picking on me....blah, blah, blah......"

 

[CDB]

You as a free citizen have the right to question the soldiers. You also have the right to questions authority without the risk of retribution. The soldier does not have those same rights. a soldier may question an order, but does not have the right to refuse to obey. This is insubordination, an offense that is punishable with death. A soldier who questions an order " under fire " can be accused of " cowardice in the face of the enemy " this is another executable offense. A soldier who questions the motives of high command can be accused of " treason ", another executable offense. You can question the soldier's reason for enlistment, but it is unfair to question the motives of a soldier who dutifully follows orders. You can fairly question the motives of civilians, who support politicians who put soldiers in " harms way " for their own agenda!

True, that is the set up of the military. I'm in no position to say whether it is necessary for it to be like that either. I do think though that the "support the troops" or "thank every soldier" mentaliy has gone way too far, to the point for example where one of the main costs of war, the human cost of some of our best young people being maimed or killed, is excluded to a point from the debate over the war when it should be one of the front a center issues.

 

[CDB]

Too bad. If you don't want to get out and vote, shut up. You have no right to speak. I vote. I guess we should go with the minority vote....I guess because you think it's stupid, it must be wrong.

There is a substantial amount of history on my side, for example the tendency of democratic republics like Rome, ancient Greece, Sweden for a time, Cromwell's time in Europe, France during the Napoleonic wars, etc., towards massively brutal and often unnecessary wars. All voted for and supported with great enthusiasm by the publics of their time.

I don't do AAS because they are illegal. If they weren't, I would. I obey the law, and enforce it, regardless of my personal views.

So you'd lock people up for the breaking of any law, regardless of whether or not the law is just? That's mindlessness of an extreme nature. To so totally disregard any questioning of the state is the hallmark mentality of a zombie, not a human being.

Don't be a fool. No American officer is going to tell his soldiers to cut off a babies head. You are just babbling.

Obeying orders without question was your point, not mine. I used an extreme example to point out the fact that not all orders should be followed.

Cross at the designated crosswalk. Move to a neighborhood that doesn't have those restrictions. Blah blah blah....who cares that you don't want to do what every other business owner has to do.

This, more than anything, is the mentality that's killing this country. Obey the rules, and never question whether those rules are necessary, or worse inherently wrong. Just obey. Obey the state. They know best.

No losers here sport. Maybe you consider yourself a loser, but I don't. If you are so dis-content living here, move. You sound like everyone that gets arrested. "Why you picking on me....blah, blah, blah......"

I never wish bad on anyone, but there will come a day where you or someone you love breaks one of those arbitrary and senseless laws, knowingly or unknowingly, and when the punishment comes down on their head you will be singing a much different song. But I guess it's okay to destroy as many lives as possible so long as you're generally happy with the world, now isn't it?

 

[Grunt76]

vBulletin Message

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CDB again.
​

 

[delta314]

So you'd lock people up for the breaking of any law, regardless of whether or not the law is just? That's mindlessness of an extreme nature. To so totally disregard any questioning of the state is the hallmark mentality of a zombie, not a human being.

If you don't like the laws, become pro-active and do something to try and change them. There must be a degree of order in society. Everyone cannot just do what they want because they think that it is right.

Obeying orders without question was your point, not mine. I used an extreme example to point out the fact that not all orders should be followed.



This, more than anything, is the mentality that's killing this country. Obey the rules, and never question whether those rules are necessary, or worse inherently wrong. Just obey. Obey the state. They know best..

Rules must be followed. Here again, if you are not happy with the rules, do something pro-active to change them. Don't whine about it.

I never wish bad on anyone, but there will come a day where you or someone you love breaks one of those arbitrary and senseless laws, knowingly or unknowingly, and when the punishment comes down on their head you will be singing a much different song. But I guess it's okay to destroy as many lives as possible so long as you're generally happy with the world, now isn't it?
.

I don't wish bad on anyone either. And the day has come and past when something has happened to one of my loved ones. I had an 18 year old son that went to prison for for six years. Yes, it ate me up inside, but he f'cked up. I did the best to could to steer him in the right direction, but there comes a time when you have to take responsibility for your own action. I don't destroy peoples lives, they do. I go to bed each night knowing that I've done the best I can to help people and live a good life. I also take great pride in what in I do, and what I have done in the past, whether it was my time in the military, or in law enforcement, or as a father and a husband.

 

[Grunt76]

When was the last time the people were actually asked to vote on a law? Then it isn't the people's law, it's the lawmakers' law. These lawmakers supposedly represent the people, who aren't actually asked and actually couldn't answer intelligently, things are so complex. Not that generally people have any idea what they really want in the first place but that's another matter entirely.

In an election, there isn't an endless spectrum of possibilities representing every possible combination of rules, laws and policies. Republican or democrat. That's pretty much it. So in actuality, the power of the people is very very limited in such a system where politicians can exchange votes among themselves for any reason.

The ones with the biggest interest in any law are the ones who will exert the most pressure. And who has big interests? Big money, big business. Not Joe and his hardware store, good citizen and all. Raytheon. Exxon. Merck. They're the deciders, not the people. Yeh the people get to cast a ballot and then the politicians just play around with senatorial votes until each gets enough of what he wants to call it a good deal. For himself.

Then the people have to abide by these laws, and to endure any consequences they might have on their lives. They're unhappy? They'll vote for the other side next time, but the only thing they'll get is a different set of disappointments. That's why political disenfranchisement is so rampant in these so-called democracies.

 

[Grunt76]

LOL rogue drone and I posted what boils down to the same thing at the same time

 

[delta314]

Is the voting choice between bad cantidate A or B a real choice? Would you be satisfied as a consumer if only the purchase of GM and Ford cars were permitted as options? Would'nt you question why alternative products aren't being offered?

Many people don't participate in voting because they view it as a rigged game between competing crooks with the same narrow range of solutions that did'nt work well the last time around.

Look at state election regs sometime, you'll see how difficult it is for third party cantidates to even get on the ballot. Alternative platforms are being repressed here and in the news rooms, how often do you see analysis and debate of other than Democratic and Republican strategy on TV?

I do see your point. But what can we do to fix it? It seems everyone wants to complain and identify all the problems, but no one comes up with any real solutions.

 

[delta314]

Yeah, birds of a feather........

It astounds me how quickly and vehmently Americans will demand alternatives and bitch about bad private service, and are so complacent when it comes to the public.

I haven't seen any other country that has anything better to offer. Seems like all the little fellas get off on bashing the US. You point out all our faults, and tell us how bad we have it. It's really amusing. Tell us again about how good you have it? I missed that part.

 

[delta314]

Lp.org, bro, the Liberatarian party. Most people can understand why competitive and balancing market forces improve products and services from private companies, the same improvements can be applied to what has been traditionally public ones.

Some good points and some that I don't agree with. I have always voted for the person I thought felt like I do. I never vote just because of party affiliation.

 

[delta314]

To say that no other country is doing better so why should we is logically comparable to saying that I drink less whiskey than the other drunks so I must be a healthy person.

I'm hardly a little guy, I'm in the upper 20% of income in the US, I have lots of toys and tools and they were'nt provided to me by anyone else, they were the product of the high standards of performance I set and attain for myself. Much is expected of me, and I expect much from the supposed leadership I financially and occupationally support.

So then you are the big business that Grunt says is making all the decisions? They should be the people that you want leading us, correct? I doubt I am in the upper 20% of income, but I'll match my standards against anyones. I have met my personal and spiritual goals, and I am very satisfied with the life I lead. I hope you are getting your moneys worth from the leaders you support. Although from your previous posts, it doesn't sound like you are very happy with them.

 

[Grunt76]

Big business isn't who makes in the upper 20%. Big business is who makes in the upper 0.0001% with just the income they're not able to successfully hide from said government.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

Get some President Bush.

I'd like a peice of bush...

I cant wait till that sick **** is out of office.
too bad he will probably be replaced by another duesh.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

Is the voting choice between bad cantidate A or B a real choice? Would you be satisfied as a consumer if only the purchase of GM and Ford cars were permitted as options? Would'nt you question why alternative products aren't being offered?

Many people don't participate in voting because they view it as a rigged game between competing crooks with the same narrow range of solutions that did'nt work well the last time around.

Look at state election regs sometime, you'll see how difficult it is for third party cantidates to even get on the ballot. Alternative platforms are being repressed here and in the news rooms, how often do you see analysis and debate of other than Democratic and Republican strategy on TV?

:goodpost:

 

[Rogue Drone]

I have always voted for the person I thought felt like I do. I never vote just because of party affiliation.

You may vote for an individual, but that individual will vote 95% of the time with his party. Look at the votes on most large issues, the most recent notable one would be the Alito confirmation, how many Senators crossed party lines? The individual congressman may have differing opinions from the party they are in, but they almost always obey the dictates of their leadership, a vote for the individual is tacit approval of the party's entire agenda that's controlled by a select few.

 

[delta314]

You may vote for an individual, but that individual will vote 95% of the time with his party. Look at the votes on most large issues, the most recent notable one would be the Alito confirmation, how many Senators crossed party lines? The individual congressman may have differing opinions from the party they are in, but they almost always obey the dictates of their leadership, a vote for the individual is tacit approval of the party's entire agenda that's controlled by a select few.

RD, You make some excellent points, and I agree with many of them. But again, so far all I see is identification of problems with no solutions offered. I will be looking at the Libertarians more closely, but I don't think they are the entire answer.

 

[DAdams91982]

RD, You make some excellent points, and I agree with many of them. But again, so far all I see is identification of problems with no solutions offered. I will be looking at the Libertarians more closely, but I don't think they are the entire answer.

One of the fundamentals of the military. Don't go at anyone with a problem, unless you also carry a solution.

Im pretty much done with this thread, its a quite usless thread. When we get to the point where lawful orders are being correlated to chopping off a babies head, the whole sight of this discussion has been lost.

Adams

 

[CDB]

If you don't like the laws, become pro-active and do something to try and change them. There must be a degree of order in society. Everyone cannot just do what they want because they think that it is right.

No one is saying they should. If you come up with a way to stop the flood of legislation year after year, thousands upon thousands of laws, let me know. Democracy seems to have encouraged it over time.

Rules must be followed. Here again, if you are not happy with the rules, do something pro-active to change them. Don't whine about it.

Do you honestly think I'm not politically active? :blink: I write letters when appropriate, talk to the people I can still stand in my local and state government. You're assuming quite a bit. That, however, isn't the best way of doing things. Unlike most others I'm not interested in forcing my views down other's throats. The best thing I can do then is convince as many people as possible that my views are right, so they voluntarily take them on.

I had an 18 year old son that went to prison for for six years. Yes, it ate me up inside, but he f'cked up. I did the best to could to steer him in the right direction, but there comes a time when you have to take responsibility for your own action.

If you can give more details, please do. If not I understand. Perhaps any point I could make is already made below.

I don't destroy peoples lives, they do.

That's arbitrary and disconnected at best. These laws do destroy people's lives by arbitrarily throwing people in prison who do not belong there. What you're basically saying is if the government passes a law banning blonde hair, any blonde who doesn't dye their hair belongs in prison. At what point did the holocaust or any other government sponsored butchery cross the line, in your opinion, between legitimate exercise of law and order and being criminal?

Some laws simply are not just. Breaking them isn't relevant, they shouldn't be on th books to begin with, and any enforcement of those laws makes the government an agent of injustice, not the other way around. Are you honestly telling me that a successful lawyer with a healthy family who depends on his support deserves to be thrown in prison for a ridiculous amount of time because an arbitrary amount of some banned drug was found on his person or property? The seeming disconnection you have between laws, their enforcement and whether or not they are just is very disturbing. When you suspend moral and ethical conscience on that level you get a police state; ultimate government power and control with no justification needed or given for any exercise of authority.

I go to bed each night knowing that I've done the best I can to help people and live a good life. I also take great pride in what in I do, and what I have done in the past, whether it was my time in the military, or in law enforcement, or as a father and a husband.

And I would not presume to tell you any different, only ask that you question.

Say your house needs to be painted. You've got this neighbor whose will and intention are unquestionably good. He sees you've got a problem with your house and proceeds to paint it for you. Bright pink. You don't have to doubt his motives or hate him to want to sit him down and expain that while you are very thankful for his efforts, he might want to think a bit more about his color choice before acting next time. Nor would you be out of line in getting a little pissed if the pink color saddled you with a fine for some arcane zoning violation, because no matter your neighbor's intentions it was his actions that ended up screwing you.

 

[CDB]

I do see your point. But what can we do to fix it? It seems everyone wants to complain and identify all the problems, but no one comes up with any real solutions.

I didn't bother posting because they already hit the nail on the head. Would you accept that perhaps there is no solution?

 

[CDB]

I'd like a peice of bush...

Who wouldn't...

 

[CDB]

Im pretty much done with this thread, its a quite usless thread. When we get to the point where lawful orders are being correlated to chopping off a babies head, the whole sight of this discussion has been lost.

Adams

So there are orders that either can't or won't be issued/obeyed because they are recognized as criminal. Now why is it such a stretch from admitting that distinction to admitting perhaps the difference between the two types isn't exacly locked down yet?

 

[anabolicrhino]

:run:

So there are orders that either can't or won't be issued/obeyed because they are recognized as criminal. Now why is it such a stretch from admitting that distinction to admitting perhaps the difference between the two types isn't exacly locked down yet?

IF cutting a baby's head off helps protect the freedoms of the US, then that baby's head is an obsticale to the main objective. Soldiers need not make such moralistic decisions. The commander who gives the order will face murder charges, if he does not have an acceptable reason. There are however acceptable reasons( What if the baby is being tortured and cutting off its head prevents further suffering?) It is not the soldier's duty to make that decision. The duty is to follow the order because he has been trained to follow orders. There is no acceptable option for the soldier. War and armed combat are filled with many horrible realities, but failure to follow orders will not result in victory. Successfully completing the mission is the only objective worth debating.

 

[Grassroots082]

It's mostly red, mostly money the Treasury will borrow against our future. Add some of that to the ~$8,100,000,000,000 dollars in the hole already, that's 8.1 trillion, ~$27,346 in debt for every American and deepening daily.

We're modern day Rome, only the Legions get a full allotment of funds.

I thought this thread was about marijuana at first :blink:. I agree with you RD, so have some rep points brother. Rome had one of the best militaries in the world, but they still fail . Either way Im down to fight.

 

[CDB]

:run:
IF cutting a baby's head off helps protect the freedoms of the US, then that baby's head is an obsticale to the main objective. Soldiers need not make such moralistic decisions. The commander who gives the order will face murder charges, if he does not have an acceptable reason. There are however acceptable reasons( What if the baby is being tortured and cutting off its head prevents further suffering?) It is not the soldier's duty to make that decision. The duty is to follow the order because he has been trained to follow orders. There is no acceptable option for the soldier. War and armed combat are filled with many horrible realities, but failure to follow orders will not result in victory. Successfully completing the mission is the only objective worth debating.

To a certain point I understand and agree with the necessity of this reality. To another point I don't. It doesn't change the reality that if soldiers are being ill used, while the vast majority of the blame falls on the heads of the users in DC because of what you say above, the soldiers are still willingly taking part in the action. That the stakes are high and their lives are at risk gets soldiers a lot of leeway that I do feel they deserve. I just don't think the idea is completely black and white, nor do I think every soldier deserves profuse thanks specifically speaking, but that thanks should be based on the totality of the effort in question. Thanks are always due for the willingess and courage to die to protect our country, but not every operation soldiers participate in serves that end which greys the matter for me. And I do get very sick and tired of neoconservative/nationalist rhetoric that implies or outright states that if you don't agree with the operation, somehow you don't support or even hate the troops. That's just BS, and it's used rhetorically way too much by supporters of American interventionist military policies to try and stifle debate.

 

[wildman536]

You cannot expect to fight a war without casualties. The US has the best equipment, bar none. And we are a "top Superpower", regardless of your view. You are not the only one that has seen the ravages of war. If you don't like the way our country is being run, vote for someone else. It's the American way. If you are the majority, then your candidate will win, and we will see if he/she can do it better.

i understand that you will have casualties, but fighting to better the American way of life is one thing, but losing Soldiers lives for this cause is another.

You can say that we are a top superpower all you want but like i said in reality our forces are streched so thin that were really not anymore. Id vote but i dont think my opinion has much influence on the subject, (just ask floridians)

 

[wildman536]

the soldiers are still willingly taking part in the action. .

i wouldnt say too much on the willingly side of that fence, moreso "made to" do it for some (MOST)

 

[delta314]

i understand that you will have casualties, but fighting to better the American way of life is one thing, but losing Soldiers lives for this cause is another.

You can say that we are a top superpower all you want but like i said in reality our forces are streched so thin that were really not anymore. Id vote but i dont think my opinion has much influence on the subject, (just ask floridians)

I am a Floridian, and I vote in every election. I think the biggest problem is some politicians will bus in every idiot (and I do mean IDIOT) and expect them to be able to correctly fill in the spot when they are just too ignorant to do so. (they put X's, check marks, circle the frigin circle.......)
Your opinion will mean much more on a ballot than it will ever mean in this forum, trust me. Losing soldiers is the worst thing possible. And it will never change. I do believe that most soldiers do what they are told to do willingly, but I'm sure some feel "forced". They should feel that way, as that is part of a soldiers duty. To follow lawful commands without question. Unfortunately there are always the ones that will question their superior officers. They end up getting themselves or their platoon members killed.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

Soldiers need not make such moralistic decisions. The commander who gives the order will face murder charges, if he does not have an acceptable reason. There are however acceptable reasons( What if the baby is being tortured and cutting off its head prevents further suffering?) It is not the soldier's duty to make that decision. The duty is to follow the order because he has been trained to follow orders. There is no acceptable option for the soldier. War and armed combat are filled with many horrible realities, but failure to follow orders will not result in victory. Successfully completing the mission is the only objective worth debating.

This reminds me of the movie Kingdom of Heaven.
"Kings may be the keeper of your body; but you are the keeper of your soul. When you stand before God you cannot say: "I was told to do otherwise", or, "virture was not convenient at the time", for this will not suffice."


Claming that you where just following orders is what hitlers officials tried to claim.... and we killed them for "following orders".

 

[DAdams91982]

This reminds me of the movie Kingdom of Heaven.
"Kings may be the keeper of your body; but you are the keeper of your soul. When you stand before God you cannot say: "I was told to do otherwise", or, "virture was not convenient at the time", for this will not suffice."


Claming that you where just following orders is what hitlers officials tried to claim.... and we killed them for "following orders".

Oh my fucking God this is pissing me the **** off.

QUIT correlating me, or delta, or any other service member to hitler, or any of his army. I follow orders, because I swore to GOD (And yes GOD), that I would stand and protect the constitution from all threats, foreign, OR DOMESTIC. And that I WILL follow the orders of the officers appointed above me.

I am only an E-5, and havent been around long enough to question what is done... NOR do I ever even want to. DOing so is what will get soldiers killed.

Yes I do follow orders without question.. and I always will till they kick me out of the damn military for being to old. I am part of something bigger than your comprehension, and will not tolerate being compared to anything or anyone associated with Adolf Hitler.


Adams

Mods... I am sorry for the rant, and if you feel the need to close this because of so, I understand and apologize. But we all have our triggers, and this one is hitting mine.

 

[delta314]

Oh my fucking God this is pissing me the **** off.

QUIT correlating me, or delta, or any other service member to hitler, or any of his army. I follow orders, because I swore to GOD (And yes GOD), that I would stand and protect the constitution from all threats, foreign, OR DOMESTIC. And that I WILL follow the orders of the officers appointed above me.

I am only an E-5, and havent been around long enough to question what is done... NOR do I ever even want to. DOing so is what will get soldiers killed.

Yes I do follow orders without question.. and I always will till they kick me out of the damn military for being to old. I am part of something bigger than your comprehension, and will not tolerate being compared to anything or anyone associated with Adolf Hitler.


Adams

Mods... I am sorry for the rant, and if you feel the need to close this because of so, I understand and apologize. But we all have our triggers, and this one is hitting mine.

Stand down Adams. Remember that you will fight to the death so that everyone in the US can have their own opinion. That is one of the great things about our country. You will protect everyones rights, regardless.
These discussions are so you can hear different views on many different subjects. Every now and then someone here enlightens me to an idea or view that really makes sense. Sometimes the views are so rediculous that they are almost humerous. But you and Nate and all the other active members of the US Military have not a damn thing to be sorry for. You keep doing what you're doing and may G'd bless all our soldiers, regardless where they may be. This thread could be the same name as another one on the board right now; "Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one"

 

[DAdams91982]

Stand down Adams. Remember that you will fight to the death so that everyone in the US can have their own opinion. That is one of the great things about our country. You will protect everyones rights, regardless.
These discussions are so you can hear different views on many different subjects. Every now and then someone here enlightens me to an idea or view that really makes sense. Sometimes the views are so rediculous that they are almost humerous. But you and Nate and all the other active members of the US Military have not a damn thing to be sorry for. You keep doing what you're doing and may G'd bless all our soldiers, regardless where they may be. This thread could be the same name as another one on the board right now; "Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one"

Roger that delta.

And yes I believe in each and every persons opinion. And Yes I shouldnt have flown off the handle. But to publicly compare me to a Nazi, is completely rediculous. I shouldnt have stepped back in this tread.

You are completely RIGHT, I am not sorry for anything I do. I take pride in EVERYTHING I do.

Adams

 

[lifter2005]

i understand that you will have casualties, but fighting to better the American way of life is one thing, but losing Soldiers lives for this cause is another.

You can say that we are a top superpower all you want but like i said in reality our forces are streched so thin that were really not anymore. Id vote but i dont think my opinion has much influence on the subject, (just ask floridians)

I dont think you are giving out military the credit it deserves. We have the overwhelming capability to fight more than one war and do it without hesitation. Despite the fact that our military is spread out through the world, we still remain a military superpower. China and a few other countries may have more soldiers in their military, but they and other countries cannot match our military technology and overwhelming firepower.

 

[lifter2005]

Oh my fucking God this is pissing me the **** off.

QUIT correlating me, or delta, or any other service member to hitler, or any of his army. I follow orders, because I swore to GOD (And yes GOD), that I would stand and protect the constitution from all threats, foreign, OR DOMESTIC. And that I WILL follow the orders of the officers appointed above me.

I am only an E-5, and havent been around long enough to question what is done... NOR do I ever even want to. DOing so is what will get soldiers killed.

Yes I do follow orders without question.. and I always will till they kick me out of the damn military for being to old. I am part of something bigger than your comprehension, and will not tolerate being compared to anything or anyone associated with Adolf Hitler.


Adams

Mods... I am sorry for the rant, and if you feel the need to close this because of so, I understand and apologize. But we all have our triggers, and this one is hitting mine.

Thank God our military has people like you. You and millions of others are the reason why we live totally free and will continue to do so forever.
God Bless.

 

[CDB]

I dont think you are giving out military the credit it deserves. We have the overwhelming capability to fight more than one war and do it without hesitation. Despite the fact that our military is spread out through the world, we still remain a military superpower. China and a few other countries may have more soldiers in their military, but they and other countries cannot match our military technology and overwhelming firepower.

If a few thousand Arabs are giving us such a hard time in the Middle East, a few million Chinese won't be easier, even if they have muskets.

 

[wildman536]

I am a Floridian, and I vote in every election. I think the biggest problem is some politicians will bus in every idiot (and I do mean IDIOT) and expect them to be able to correctly fill in the spot when they are just too ignorant to do so. (they put X's, check marks, circle the frigin circle.......)
Your opinion will mean much more on a ballot than it will ever mean in this forum, trust me. Losing soldiers is the worst thing possible. And it will never change. I do believe that most soldiers do what they are told to do willingly, but I'm sure some feel "forced". They should feel that way, as that is part of a soldiers duty. To follow lawful commands without question. Unfortunately there are always the ones that will question their superior officers. They end up getting themselves or their platoon members killed.

so how did you feel when your vote diddnt count?? (unless youre a rep.)

like i said in my first post on here i dont usually get into these political issues on a fitness forum but thought that this one was going in the wrong direction and had to get my 2 cents in. i can assure you that most Soldiers (and you see that i capitalized it for a reason) are following there orders because of a fear, not because they truely believe that its the right thing to do, i hear EVERYDAY about how much people hate the Military we are in not just on my level but on a much MUCH higher one, and how they do not believe that we are fighting for a justified cause, The Military is not the same now as when i joined just 5 yrs ago, so i can imagne how it was in vietnam.

 

[lifter2005]

If a few thousand Arabs are giving us such a hard time in the Middle East, a few million Chinese won't be easier, even if they have muskets.

Hypothetically speaking, a war with China would be more conventional. Military vs. Military.
What were doing in Iraq doesnt compare. Putting a bomb under some trash on the side of the road and hoping a U.S convoy strikes it is what coward terrorists do. There are no military targets for the U.S bombers and tanks to target. The terrorists hide in homes and wait to strike at a tank or at individual soldiers.
Atleast in China, we would have massive military sites to target and destroy.

p.s I see what your saying, though. Nation building is a bitch.

 

[wildman536]

I dont think you are giving out military the credit it deserves. We have the overwhelming capability to fight more than one war and do it without hesitation. Despite the fact that our military is spread out through the world, we still remain a military superpower. China and a few other countries may have more soldiers in their military, but they and other countries cannot match our military technology and overwhelming firepower.

i understand that we have the items needed to be a superpower but you still need the qualified people to use them, not just some joe off the street that you have drafted or lowered the standard to get in just to get your numbers for the year. our technology is advanced but the people are not~~ sadly, times have changed if i knew now what i diddnt know then i wouldnt have joined.

I WILL SAY THIS THOUGH, I WILL ALWAYS----ALWAYS SUPPORT MY FELLOW SOLDIERS NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!!!

 

[wildman536]

If a few thousand Arabs are giving us such a hard time in the Middle East, a few million Chinese won't be easier, even if they have muskets.

this is VERRRRRY TRUE. Strength in numbers, especially with the Laws of War. good luck with China.

 

[lifter2005]

i understand that we have the items needed to be a superpower but you still need the qualified people to use them, not just some joe off the street that you have drafted or lowered the standard to get in just to get your numbers for the year. our technology is advanced but the people are not~~ sadly, times have changed if i knew now what i diddnt know then i wouldnt have joined.

I WILL SAY THIS THOUGH, I WILL ALWAYS----ALWAYS SUPPORT MY FELLOW SOLDIERS NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!!!

I see what your saying. We have lowered standards, like taking highschool dropouts, etc. However, has the training suffered? Arent they still committed to the highest standards when it comes to training?
How many more years you got? You plan on getting out, or sticking it out?
Good Luck with whatever you choose.

 

[wildman536]

I see what your saying. We have lowered standards, like taking highschool dropouts, etc. However, has the training suffered? Arent they still committed to the highest standards when it comes to training?
How many more years you got? You plan on getting out, or sticking it out?
Good Luck with whatever you choose.

thanks,

yes the standards have been lowered in most areas (the needed areas) as far as the training goes id have to say that its predominantly the same things just lowered in favor of the "less intelligent" so to say, i have about 6 months left.

id have to compare my experience to that movie King Arthur, when i joined i thought that i was going to be fighting for a noble cause, but instead i am fighting for something that i cannot even tell you what it is. I will do what i am told for the next 6 mos and get out, i will not cower down and get kicked out just because i am not wanting to be in (like alot are doing), i will hold up my end of the deal and go on until my contract is up. I have a new baby and would like to spend every minute i can with her and not have to go to a war for a yr or two and maybe have something done to where i couldnt hold her or play with her (i have seen this and its not good ~~i have been stationed at a few big hospitals the last couple yrs) and seen the worst effects of this war, i know that alot of these people that come back arent happy with what theyve done and are horrified at what they have seen. If somebody says that they are "Gung Ho" Etc i feel that they just need to spend a day where i work and then they will lose that feeling.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

Speaking of china...
I have heard that if you lined them up in one mile wide lines and had them march at you. And if they would just disapear when they got shot. And you where shooting them as fast as you could with a machine gun; you would never win..... they have so many people over there that they would keep reproducing at and equal if not faster rate than you could shoot them.:jaw:

 

[somewhatgifted]

Armed with nothing but the weight of their corpses the chinese are still formidable foes. As long as they dont have the means to transport their troops....

 

[delta314]

so how did you feel when your vote diddnt count?? (unless youre a rep.)

like i said in my first post on here i dont usually get into these political issues on a fitness forum but thought that this one was going in the wrong direction and had to get my 2 cents in. i can assure you that most Soldiers (and you see that i capitalized it for a reason) are following there orders because of a fear, not because they truely believe that its the right thing to do, i hear EVERYDAY about how much people hate the Military we are in not just on my level but on a much MUCH higher one, and how they do not believe that we are fighting for a justified cause, The Military is not the same now as when i joined just 5 yrs ago, so i can imagne how it was in vietnam.

Who says my vote didn't count? I really don't think that "most" Soldiers are following orders out of fear. Due to the job that you have, I can see why you have the views you have expressed. As a combat vet, I think your job is much harder on the mind. I just worried about my guys and my ass when the **** hit the fan. You see the worst of it every day, all day.
I wont answer each of your posts individually, but I appreciate some of the other things you stated in them, especially the part about always supporting your fellow Soldiers. There were plenty of times that I hated being in the military. I don't think I really appreciated it until I had been separated for awhile. I'm sure down the road when you are out and spending time with your family that you will think about some of your experiences and they will bring you piece of mind for a job that you performed well, under pressure and even duress.
Stay safe these next few months and get your ass home to that little baby girl!

 

[wildman536]

Who says my vote didn't count? I really don't think that "most" Soldiers are following orders out of fear. Due to the job that you have, I can see why you have the views you have expressed. As a combat vet, I think your job is much harder on the mind. I just worried about my guys and my ass when the **** hit the fan. You see the worst of it every day, all day.
I wont answer each of your posts individually, but I appreciate some of the other things you stated in them, especially the part about always supporting your fellow Soldiers. There were plenty of times that I hated being in the military. I don't think I really appreciated it until I had been separated for awhile. I'm sure down the road when you are out and spending time with your family that you will think about some of your experiences and they will bring you piece of mind for a job that you performed well, under pressure and even duress.
Stay safe these next few months and get your ass home to that little baby girl!

yeah i love her!! like i said i may not be in favor of the orders that we are given but i will always support our Soldiers simply because we do a self-less job. and Thank You for bieng a Vet!!

 

[The Experiment]

Keep in mind this defense budget includes all the no-bid contracts, padded deals, and all that. Who knows how much is actually going into the military itself.

I disagree about being the world's police. As a superpower, we have an obligation to but America has a lot of problems of its own that should be addressed.

Right now, America is slipping in just about every category. Why is it that other than Switzerland, we spend more money on health care than anyone? Why has spending for education doubled but we keep failling behind?

The answer isn't clear but the picture is getting pieced together: the money being spent is put into the wrong hands.

I have a lot more to comment on the comments about dissenting the US government.

 

[The Experiment]

First off, its our right as a people to question the government. Its what keeps the governments honest, which is probably why the Bush Administration is as corrupt as it is. Too many people become yes-men for their parties, which is why politics in America sucks so much today.

You all need to read The Federalist Papers and pretty much everything written by the Founders. Not only is it great to read, it points out why politics in America are terrible.

James Madison feared the tyranny of the majority. In fact, the purpose of Representation and the Democratic Republic is because they knew there would be idiots who would vote. The Representatives were to be enlightened and therefore not **** things up. He called these tyrannies "factions" that were self-serving and self-interest only. Today, people only give a **** what matters to them, not for the good of the nation. The founders strongly believed in the public greater good.

Another thing Madison stressed was having a large, diverse nation. Now all it is here anymore is Red vs. Blue.

Big Business and lobbyists are pretty much evil but they're allowed by the Consitution because banning them is banning liberty. The founders hoped that people would be smart enough to not let it happen by electing Representatives who acted on behalf of the people, not acting on behalf of Merck or Wal-Mart.

There is a huge backlash by everyone for multi-parties. The media (another serious problem in American society) has a lot of money invested in both political parties and the parties depend on the media. Both will fight tooth and nail to undercut alternative parties. Ross Perot gave a good fight but only because he spent lots of money. Compare this to Jimmy Carter who, when running as Governor of Georgia, went on his bike and campaigned himself.

People don't trust politicians for good reason.

Libertarianism isn't the right answer because its never actually worked unless self imposed egalitarianism occurs.

I have several friends and two uncles in the military. The friends came back from Iraq at various times for a couple weeks and go back in. Man, have they changed. None of them really care too much for the war.