Not really politics, but Evolution... (cont. a thread)

Whiskey Steve

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What's the evidentiary basis for that statement?

Any one here ever see what they would describe as a UFO? I have. Anyone ever seen the supposedly Space Shuttle videos of craft/lights flying back and forth from the surface and earth orbit? Weird and interesting stuff, but I'm not qualified to properly assess either my sighting or the vids that are out but it does make me go hmmm......
where have you heard this.......links?


anywho, i have read some stuff about that. I've read some Christian sites that think it is Archangels who may be good or evil. But that these angel have a greater understanding of physics and dimension then us.....
and it talked about crop circles and how many of them must have appeared in just minutes.... i mention this because it talked about the machines that must have been used to create the pattern in such a precise and rapid fashion without making any noise.
Also mentioned some stone that was placed on the top of the tower of babel that had some meaning related to ufo's. I don't know what i think about it.
I'm trying to eliminate the word "quack" from my vocabulary because often enough people like this will end up having some shocking truth to their stories/theories.
hmmmmm
 
kwyckemynd00

kwyckemynd00

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You do not explode and your blood does not boil because of the containing effect of your skin and circulatory system. You do not instantly freeze because, although the space environment is typically very cold, heat does not transfer away from a body quickly. Loss of consciousness occurs only after the body has depleted the supply of oxygen in the blood. If your skin is exposed to direct sunlight without any protection from its intense ultraviolet radiation, you can get a very bad sunburn.

At NASA's Manned Spacecraft Center (now renamed Johnson Space Center) we had a test subject accidentally exposed to a near vacuum (less than 1 psi) in an incident involving a leaking space suit in a vacuum chamber back in '65. He remained conscious for about 14 seconds, which is about the time it takes for O2 deprived blood to go from the lungs to the brain. The suit probably did not reach a hard vacuum, and we began repressurizing the chamber within 15 seconds. The subject regained consciousness at around 15,000 feet equivalent altitude. The subject later reported that he could feel and hear the air leaking out, and his last conscious memory was of the water on his tongue beginning to boil.
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

You'd think it would be easier to find information on vacuum chambers and how NASA uses them, geez. This is all I've come up with, and I'm getting nowhere fast, so I'm done with the vacuum chamber stuff. lol.
 

Whiskey Steve

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who is Fox Mulder?

and sorry for posting such out there stuff..... i'm just seems like people like CDB always have something intersting to add to ideas like this so i just figured id throw them out there
 

Whiskey Steve

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Am I correct in assuming Whiskey Steve aka Fox Mulder, that I should never buy a tinfoil hat from a factory because it will be bugged? Can you make me a clean one with your ultra secret super tech Reynold's Wrap?
why the attacks

did i offend you?
 
kwyckemynd00

kwyckemynd00

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Fox Moulder is the guy on the X-Files who was the 'believer'. He believe in UFO's and paranormal activity, etc. His partner was the skeptic.
 

Rogue Drone

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I'm just messing with Old Bourbon breath for the fun of it. In all seriousness, I've known a couple of people that were on the operational fringes of DARPA, they have some damn interesting things to say about weapon and mind control technologies in development.
 

Whiskey Steve

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Fox Moulder is the guy on the X-Files who was the 'believer'. He believe in UFO's and paranormal activity, etc. His partner was the skeptic.
got ya....

i just find this stuff interesting......


i'm not one to accept things easily.... that why i have been disclaiming all of this and saying that these are simply things i have heard, and that i dont know how credible the sources are.
 
kwyckemynd00

kwyckemynd00

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got ya....

i just find this stuff interesting......


i'm not one to accept things easily.... that why i have been disclaiming all of this and saying that these are simply things i have heard, and that i dont know how credible the sources are.
I think it was your wording that stirred us up. You said "Can't tell ya, sorry" as if it were some big secret....Area 51 style, lol.

But, everyone's just playin' around man. No worries.
 

Rogue Drone

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About a year ago, I downloaded a file on the net that was supposedly Space Shuttle video of unknown space craft that were flying from the earth into orbit, it was supposedly intercepted by someone in a TV station and released by them.

I'm just Fing with you Steve, You know I'm a member of the borderline Paranoid Conspiracy Club myself.
 

Whiskey Steve

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I'm just messing with Old Bourbon breath for the fun of it. In all seriousness, I've known a couple of people that were on the operational fringes of DARPA, they have some damn interesting things to say about weapon and mind control technologies in development.
I don't understand why "they" (whoever the hell that is) doesn't use this technology for peace.
Why do they alway use their understanding of molecular structure and energy to make weapons.
We as human beings can radiate feelings and energy to effect others. Why hasn't science found a way to duplicate this on a high intensity level.

I know that the movie "what the bleep do we know" is outdated but still.... the experiment they did in DC (i think) with a mass group of people meditating did in fact lower the crime rate due to the positive energy they were sending out.
I would not be suprised if their is a machine in existance that can create this type of energy.
 

Rogue Drone

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Most of the claims of Psychics have been disproven by guys like the magician skeptic James Randi, but I did see a Discovery Channel show a while back where the researchers, seemingly credible scientists from a university, had statistically proven that people could influence the behavior of Computer logic gates and rolled dice with their thoughts.

IMO, there's some reality to "Magic" , which could be described as just presently unknown science, and there's so much deception to get through to find this reality.
 

Whiskey Steve

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Most of the claims of Psychics have been disproven by guys like the magician skeptic James Randi, but I did see a Discovery Channel show a while back where the researchers, seemingly credible scientists from a university, had statistically proven that people could influence the behavior of Computer logic gates and rolled dice with their thoughts.

IMO, there's some reality to "Magic" , which could be described as just presently unknown science, and there's so much deception to get through to find this reality.
I absolutly believe that.....but in a religious path of thought.
but how it happens may still be explained by science. that would shake my belief. i would just understand how it is taking place.
 

Whiskey Steve

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I'm just messing with Old Bourbon breath for the fun of it. In all seriousness, I've known a couple of people that were on the operational fringes of DARPA, they have some damn interesting things to say about weapon and mind control technologies in development.
ya but you don't blab it all over the internet.....
and im not either. thats why i said what i did earlier
 

Rogue Drone

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I believe we are on the verge of being able to understand and then manipulate the fundamental mechanics of our world, and that does'nt mean we cast aside the belief in god, it's just that we may soon learn to use some of his tools and techniques.

The problem appears to be that we can make enormous strides in technology, but our development of wisdom and the accompanying emotional maturity has not kept pace. Humans are still ruled by our primal biology and I don't see us progressing here fast enough to properly use these tools, our evolutinary successors, the sentient computers, may be the salvation of our species.
 

Rogue Drone

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I don't know anything that's not already been disclosed on the net already by others.Secrets don't remain so as long as they once did.
 
Grunt76

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LOTS of stuff is kept hyper-secret. Anti-Gravity is one, mass mind control another, etc. BTW, a second-generation mass mind control was developed by Hitler, who had some pretty good teachers. It has evolved humongously since then and is IMO the most important threat to mankind at this point. What good is "freedom" when ONE way to think is forced upon you without your knowledge? The enemy of freedom is MUCH more subtle than one might believe.

The problem appears to be that we can make enormous strides in technology, but our development of wisdom and the accompanying emotional maturity has not kept pace. Humans are still ruled by our primal biology and I don't see us progressing here fast enough to properly use these tools, our evolutinary successors, the sentient computers, may be the salvation of our species.
EXACTLY. Other intelligences in the Universe, wether you call them god, angels, demons, little people, pixies, aliens or whatever, will only make themselves seen when mankind is grown up enough to either be able to deal with them with some kind of maturity OR become a serious threat to the local structure of the universe.

I do believe that Evolution is something a race must do by itself and that this is a very very fundamental LAW of evolution. This ties in perfectly with religion, whereby God the Almighty doesn't intervene even when men do something He "doesn't want us to", like murder, rape, genocide, etc. BTW I am not religious in any way.
 

Rogue Drone

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I have read that within 50? years, we may be able to incorporate other animal, insect and/or plant DNA into our own, to give us ability to do things like live in the Sea.

I've also read that it's theoritically possible to transfer the conciousness of a human being through nanotechnology into a machine.

I obviously need someone's good spelling gene, anyone got an extra?
 
Grunt76

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Yeh, I've read of plans to have carbon-fiber bones, diamond teeth, muscles 100x as powerful, replacing most membranes with spider silk, etc.

I'm keeping my genes just the way they are, thank you.
 

Rogue Drone

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I'll take the new teeth,IMO, that's one sorry area of human physiology, no matter how conciousness you are in their care, they will rot away anyway.
 

Whiskey Steve

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I've also read that it's theoritically possible to transfer the conciousness of a human being through nanotechnology into a machine.
My religious beliefs prevent me from thinking this will evercome about.
 
Grunt76

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I'll take the new teeth,IMO, that's one sorry area of human physiology, no matter how conciousness you are in their care, they will rot away anyway.
Just eat with silver cutlery and you'll keep your teeth 1500 years. Anything else I can do for you? :)
 

Whiskey Steve

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Yeh, I've read of plans to have carbon-fiber bones, diamond teeth, muscles 100x as powerful, replacing most membranes with spider silk, etc.

I'm keeping my genes just the way they are, thank you.
hmmmm.
i wonder how this could be done....
maybe in steps...
i doubt you can transfer the consciousness (i call it the soul) of a human being into something.
but then again, i believe in things like astro projection so maybe we could just create a "perfect" or super body and then choose to enter it.
 

Whiskey Steve

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Re: Matter, thought and science

and second it was all information I had known since at least 7th grade (or had a sense of).
lets not lie just to make friends.........jk




(when we reply now it says "Re: Matter, thought and science")
 
Aeternitatis

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Re: Matter, thought and science

And because time doesn't exist, evolution isn't really evolution. Because time doesn't exist, evolution simply CANNOT be a process of random mutation, trial and error, etc. There is much more order to it than that. There are organizational forces at work along the axis of what we call "time" that we simply cannot understand but are nonetheless absolutely real, as proven by pure science. This means that there is a balance between "now" and "then" that we cannot understand but is ruled by laws every bit as real as the currently recognized laws of physics.
Ahh, I like that idea. It's so mind boggling. For example, I was reading about how God exists outside of time. Well, that would mean that to him time is not a linear chain but a single point. In others words, all that happened, is happening or will happened occurs all at once. Mind boggling.

I've personally never believed in time. Even since I was a child I didn't believe in it. I remember arguing about it to some adult when I was in the 4th grade. Time just never made any sense.
 
Grunt76

Grunt76

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The movie "What the bleep do we know?".

Well I don't think it was a dumbass movie at all. I rather liked it, it was explaining some rather arcane developments of science in a way that was pretty understandable for most people.

Most people aren't terribly science-inclined. A lot are rather porn-and-beer inclined. Which isn't that WRONG per se, but does diminish the mental horizons when such remains the focus of one's life for too long. In that aspect, the Bleep was a GREAT movie.

To me, the science in there was obviously dated, but I sure was GLAD that the information was made available to most people. Talk to joe average about other dimensions and you'll see a thick glaze over his eyes or ask me if I'm in a religious sect or somesuch nonsense. Now that they can see in a movie that it's real science, this might cause an incremental change in the masses' mind.
 

Whiskey Steve

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The movie "What the bleep do we know?".

Well I don't think it was a dumbass movie at all. I rather liked it, it was explaining some rather arcane developments of science in a way that was pretty understandable for most people.

Most people aren't terribly science-inclined. A lot are rather porn-and-beer inclined. Which isn't that WRONG per se, but does diminish the mental horizons when such remains the focus of one's life for too long. In that aspect, the Bleep was a GREAT movie.

To me, the science in there was obviously dated, but I sure was GLAD that the information was made available to most people. Talk to joe average about other dimensions and you'll see a thick glaze over his eyes or ask me if I'm in a religious sect or somesuch nonsense. Now that they can see in a movie that it's real science, this might cause an incremental change in the masses' mind.
:goodpost:
 

Whiskey Steve

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Re: Matter, thought and science

Ahh, I like that idea. It's so mind boggling. For example, I was reading about how God exists outside of time. Well, that would mean that to him time is not a linear chain but a single point. In others words, all that happened, is happening or will happened occurs all at once. Mind boggling.

I've personally never believed in time. Even since I was a child I didn't believe in it. I remember arguing about it to some adult when I was in the 4th grade. Time just never made any sense.
In religion we always think in terms of from "eternity to eternity"...
And we say that God has the past present and future in one eternal round.
I think our definition of eternity is wrong. I dont think it is a word to describe limitless time. I think it is a word that should encompass our perceptions of past, present, and future. There is no such thing as time.
The best definition i can come up with for eternity would be: the growing account of percieved happenings.
(but even that doesn't really work)
 

Whiskey Steve

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I saw a spirit/ghost/???!!! once.

It was a child sized black shape in a partially lit room that walked. Scared the piss outta me.

I know what I perceived, my question has always been wether it was just a abberent malfunction in my brain, I'll never know, I guess. Very, very odd occurance.
I wouldn't be so quick as to throw it out.
if it had no purpose (did not speak to you ect.) then it was probably a halucination.

I have never seen anything like that while healthy. One time as a child i had a fever of 104+ and saw some elves in my bathroom on my way to go hurl. Seemed very real, but it is obvious it was a malfunction. Also what helps me know that i was halucinating was the fact that it was the rice crispy elves. So just they just popped out of my memory just like they could if i was dreaming.


yours does sound scary and possible real though.
Was there anything going on at the time that could have affected your brain function (fever, medication, drugs, starvation, sleep deprivation, excessive physical activity, played on the swingset to long lol)
 
Grunt76

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I saw a spirit/ghost/???!!! once.

It was a child sized black shape in a partially lit room that walked. Scared the piss outta me.

I know what I perceived, my question has always been wether it was just a abberent malfunction in my brain, I'll never know, I guess. Very, very odd occurance.

I've also meditated in my bedroom, walked out and then walked back into a invisible wall that knocked me back, again maybe a brain malfunction.
You know, there is absolutely nothing new about "communicating with spirits". All the ancient civilizations did it and most of the religions speak of "angels" which by all accounts are also non-solid beings.

Of course this modern world will retort "yeah, but they were all just superstitious savages so of COURSE they were making **** up". But then again, the great pyramids and the science represented in the Maya temples and their advanced knowledge of the solar system doesn't make them terribly savage and ignorant...
 

Whiskey Steve

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Nothing going on physically, mentally or chemically at the time that I can define.

I was a beat cop in Suburban Detroit, doing my normal rounds in an old industrial area, walked into a old factory storeroom, and it was there. It stood there looking at me for a moment, I froze instead of properly shining my maglight on it, and it walked out of the room. I fled, my partner and I went back, nothing to be found. Still gives me the creeps as I type this.
oddly enough its giving me the creeps too...

sometimes when i am driving at night is will go around a corner and as my lights illuminate mailboxs in my peripheral vision it will apear as a child running away from me.....


yours sound very real though. did your partener see it?
i think it sounds like you looked too long for it to just be a halucination.
 

Whiskey Steve

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You know, there is absolutely nothing new about "communicating with spirits". All the ancient civilizations did it and most of the religions speak of "angels" which by all accounts are also non-solid beings.

Of course this modern world will retort "yeah, but they were all just superstitious savages so of COURSE they were making **** up". But then again, the great pyramids and the science represented in the Maya temples and their advanced knowledge of the solar system doesn't make them terribly savage and ignorant...
I believe (from my religious books) that their are Angels that have bodies and those that do not.

Speaking of ancient civilizations being more advanced...
according to some stuff i read on the web (maybe all a lie); i think it was 3 hundreds years ago in the middle east a valley was found that was completely covered in glass. And every stone was burnt on the side of it that faced toward the center of the valley. They did not know what is was at the time so they (cant remember who it said "they" were) got spooked and left. But now they think it is the result of an atomic bomb....
 

Whiskey Steve

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The meditation episode was about five years ago, I was using a binaural sound frequency tape for about 30 minutes on my bed, finished and went to make a cup of coffee, walked back into the bedroom and bam, it was like walking into a wall I could not see and knocked the cup out of my hand. I have no explanation.
I have had some similar experiences...
 

Whiskey Steve

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Do you guys ever watch Ghosthunters? The American team with AV equipment, not the stupid british one with "Psychics".They've caught some credible evidence with their equipment.
I haven't..... but i dont know if i care to

I scare the fucking **** out of myself without outside info about this subject matter.

The times I have been most scared in my life are when i have been "safely" in my room by myself.......i get praying for protection real quick.


they dont really have to go "hunting"......evil spirits will gladly come to you... just buy a weegy board.
 

Whiskey Steve

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There was nothing to be found when we returned, and we looked hard.

This was a very distinct child sized black shape that walked, what was so weird was that a child should have had visible distinctions in that level of light, and made sound when it walked. Neither was there. It was a solid black soundless form. I've had drug and sleep deprivitation hallucinations, this was very different, a fully cognicent experience of ?
sounds to real to be a hallucination...
and to wierd to be a real child...

I'll pray that it doesn't happen to you again (seriously).
 

Whiskey Steve

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You're a Christian, I'm a Pagan, neither black nor white, it's the lukewarm who god spits from his mouth. Just my belief, works for me.
I'm not too familiar with Paganism.... multiple Gods?
if you don't care to explain then thats fine


i'm lds'ish
 
Grunt76

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Rogue Drone, you and me might have things in common, bro.
 

Whiskey Steve

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Sorry, Steveo, some things are better left unsaid.
I respect that.......
probably more than if you would have explained it.

I get trampled on so friggin much here its rediculous


well done Rogue Drone :thumbsup:
 
CDB

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who is Fox Mulder?

and sorry for posting such out there stuff..... i'm just seems like people like CDB always have something intersting to add to ideas like this so i just figured id throw them out there
I've never seen a hint that there's anything more destructive to be found in our arsenal than nukes. The possibilities of nukes are insane enough to humble most people. Unless of course you're talking bioweapons, which I don't doubt we have a decent stock of.
 
CDB

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I saw a spirit/ghost/???!!! once.

It was a child sized black shape in a partially lit room that walked. Scared the piss outta me.
I've seen more than one 'ghost' in my time, some as yours where I couldn't really be sure, some majorly clear for long enough to not have any doubt. Whatever ghosts are I do think they're real.
 
Grunt76

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I've never seen a hint that there's anything more destructive to be found in our arsenal than nukes. The possibilities of nukes are insane enough to humble most people. Unless of course you're talking bioweapons, which I don't doubt we have a decent stock of.
No stock, but the means to develop them almost overnight. Bioweapons aren't useful though. Ever hear of HAARP? It's the technology to create earthquaques at will. Now THAT is destructive, because when you're done levelling a whole region, it's still inhabitable, whereas with nuke you have to wait 500 years at least...
 
CDB

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No stock, but the means to develop them almost overnight. Bioweapons aren't useful though. Ever hear of HAARP? It's the technology to create earthquaques at will. Now THAT is destructive, because when you're done levelling a whole region, it's still inhabitable, whereas with nuke you have to wait 500 years at least...
Sounds like something from either Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins or Under Seige 2. I seriously doubt our government has much if anything beyond nukes.
 
TheCrownedOne

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Speaking of nukes...

The bomb is 100 times more powerful than the one dropped on Hiroshima, and it lies off the coast of Georgia. Lucky for us, it lacks the plutonium trigger needed for a nuclear explosion. How fortunate :rolleyes:
 
Grunt76

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What? There's only 50 nukes lost in the oceans. Does that make you feel safe? How long until someone finds one and recovers it?
 
BigVrunga

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Wrap your mind around this one:)

IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS 0. AND THEN THERE WAS 1. A MIND-BENDING MEDITATION ON THE TRANSCENDENT POWER OF DIGITAL COMPUTATION.

By Kevin Kelly

At today's rates of compression, you could download the entire 3 billion digits of your DNA onto about four CDs. That 3-gigabyte genome sequence represents the prime coding information of a human body — your life as numbers. Biology, that pulsating mass of plant and animal flesh, is conceived by science today as an information process. As computers keep shrinking, we can imagine our complex bodies being numerically condensed to the size of two tiny cells. These micro-memory devices are called the egg and sperm. They are packed with information.

That life might be information, as biologists propose, is far more intuitive than the corresponding idea that hard matter is information as well. When we bang a knee against a table leg, it sure doesn't feel like we knocked into information. But that's the idea many physicists are formulating.

The spooky nature of material things is not new. Once science examined matter below the level of fleeting quarks and muons, it knew the world was incorporeal. What could be less substantial than a realm built out of waves of quantum probabilities? And what could be weirder? Digital physics is both. It suggests that those strange and insubstantial quantum wavicles, along with everything else in the universe, are themselves made of nothing but 1s and 0s. The physical world itself is digital.

The scientist John Archibald Wheeler (coiner of the term "black hole") was onto this in the '80s. He claimed that, fundamentally, atoms are made up of of bits of information. As he put it in a 1989 lecture, "Its are from bits." He elaborated: "Every it — every particle, every field of force, even the space-time continuum itself — derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely from binary choices, bits. What we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes/no questions."

To get a sense of the challenge of describing physics as a software program, picture three atoms: two hydrogen and one oxygen. Put on the magic glasses of digital physics and watch as the three atoms bind together to form a water molecule. As they merge, each seems to be calculating the optimal angle and distance at which to attach itself to the others. The oxygen atom uses yes/no decisions to evaluate all possible courses toward the hydrogen atom, then usually selects the optimal 104.45 degrees by moving toward the other hydrogen at that very angle. Every chemical bond is thus calculated.

If this sounds like a simulation of physics, then you understand perfectly, because in a world made up of bits, physics is exactly the same as a simulation of physics. There's no difference in kind, just in degree of exactness. In the movie The Matrix, simulations are so good you can't tell if you're in one. In a universe run on bits, everything is a simulation.

An ultimate simulation needs an ultimate computer, and the new science of digitalism says that the universe itself is the ultimate computer — actually the only computer. Further, it says, all the computation of the human world, especially our puny little PCs, merely piggybacks on cycles of the great computer. Weaving together the esoteric teachings of quantum physics with the latest theories in computer science, pioneering digital thinkers are outlining a way of understanding all of physics as a form of computation.

From this perspective, computation seems almost a theological process. It takes as its fodder the primeval choice between yes or no, the fundamental state of 1 or 0. After stripping away all externalities, all material embellishments, what remains is the purest state of existence: here/not here. Am/not am. In the Old Testament, when Moses asks the Creator, "Who are you?" the being says, in effect, "Am." One bit. One almighty bit. Yes. One. Exist. It is the simplest statement possible.

All creation, from this perch, is made from this irreducible foundation. Every mountain, every star, the smallest salamander or woodland tick, each thought in our mind, each flight of a ball is but a web of elemental yes/nos woven together. If the theory of digital physics holds up, movement (f = ma), energy (E = mc²), gravity, dark matter, and antimatter can all be explained by elaborate programs of 1/0 decisions. Bits can be seen as a digital version of the "atoms" of classical Greece: the tiniest constituent of existence. But these new digital atoms are the basis not only of matter, as the Greeks thought, but of energy, motion, mind, and life.

From this perspective, computation, which juggles and manipulates these primal bits, is a silent reckoning that uses a small amount of energy to rearrange symbols. And its result is a signal that makes a difference — a difference that can be felt as a bruised knee. The input of computation is energy and information; the output is order, structure, extropy.

Our awakening to the true power of computation rests on two suspicions. The first is that computation can describe all things. To date, computer scientists have been able to encapsulate every logical argument, scientific equation, and literary work that we know about into the basic notation of computation. Now, with the advent of digital signal processing, we can capture video, music, and art in the same form. Even emotion is not immune. Researchers Cynthia Breazeal at MIT and Charles Guerin and Albert Mehrabian in Quebec have built Kismet and EMIR (Emotional Model for Intelligent Response), two systems that exhibit primitive feelings.

The second supposition is that all things can compute. We have begun to see that almost any kind of material can serve as a computer. Human brains, which are mostly water, compute fairly well. (The first "calculators" were clerical workers figuring mathematical tables by hand.) So can sticks and strings. In 1975, as an undergraduate student, engineer Danny Hillis constructed a digital computer out of skinny Tinkertoys. In 2000, Hillis designed a digital computer made of only steel and tungsten that is indirectly powered by human muscle. This slow-moving device turns a clock intended to tick for 10,000 years. He hasn't made a computer with pipes and pumps, but, he says, he could. Recently, scientists have used both quantum particles and minute strands of DNA to perform computations.

A third postulate ties the first two together into a remarkable new view: All computation is one.

In 1937, Alan Turing, Alonso Church, and Emil Post worked out the logical underpinnings of useful computers. They called the most basic loop — which has become the foundation of all working computers — a finite-state machine. Based on their analysis of the finite-state machine, Turing and Church proved a theorem now bearing their names. Their conjecture states that any computation executed by one finite-state machine, writing on an infinite tape (known later as a Turing machine), can be done by any other finite-state machine on an infinite tape, no matter what its configuration. In other words, all computation is equivalent. They called this universal computation.

When John von Neumann and others jump-started the first electronic computers in the 1950s, they immediately began extending the laws of computation away from math proofs and into the natural world. They tentatively applied the laws of loops and cybernetics to ecology, culture, families, weather, and biological systems. Evolution and learning, they declared, were types of computation. Nature computed.

If nature computed, why not the entire universe? The first to put down on paper the outrageous idea of a universe-wide computer was science fiction writer Isaac Asimov. In his 1956 short story "The Last Question," humans create a computer smart enough to bootstrap new computers smarter than itself. These analytical engines recursively grow super smarter and super bigger until they act as a single giant computer filling the universe. At each stage of development, humans ask the mighty machine if it knows how to reverse entropy. Each time it answers: "Insufficient data for a meaningful reply." The story ends when human minds merge into the ultimate computer mind, which takes over the entire mass and energy of the universe. Then the universal computer figures out how to reverse entropy and create a universe.

Such a wacky idea was primed to be spoofed, and that's what Douglas Adams did when he wrote The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. In Adams' story the earth is a computer, and to the world's last question it gives the answer: 42.

Few ideas are so preposterous that no one at all takes them seriously, and this idea — that God, or at least the universe, might be the ultimate large-scale computer — is actually less preposterous than most. The first scientist to consider it, minus the whimsy or irony, was Konrad Zuse, a little-known German who conceived of programmable digital computers 10 years before von Neumann and friends. In 1967, Zuse outlined his idea that the universe ran on a grid of cellular automata, or CA. Simultaneously, Ed Fredkin was considering the same idea. Self-educated, opinionated, and independently wealthy, Fredkin hung around early computer scientists exploring CAs. In the 1960s, he began to wonder if he could use computation as the basis for an understanding of physics.

Fredkin didn't make much headway until 1970, when mathematician John Conway unveiled the Game of Life, a particularly robust version of cellular automata. The Game of Life, as its name suggests, was a simple computational model that mimicked the growth and evolution of living things. Fredkin began to play with other CAs to see if they could mimic physics. You needed very large ones, but they seemed to scale up nicely, so he was soon fantasizing huge — really huge — CAs that would extend to include everything. Maybe the universe itself was nothing but a great CA.

The more Fredkin investigated the metaphor, the more real it looked to him. By the mid-'80s, he was saying things like, "I've come to the conclusion that the most concrete thing in the world is information."

Many of his colleagues felt that if Fredkin had left his observations at the level of metaphor — "the universe behaves as if it was a computer" — he would have been more famous. As it is, Fredkin is not as well known as his colleague Marvin Minsky, who shares some of his views. Fredkin insisted, flouting moderation, that the universe is a large field of cellular automata, not merely like one, and that everything we see and feel is information.

Many others besides Fredkin recognized the beauty of CAs as a model for investigating the real world. One of the early explorers was the prodigy Stephen Wolfram. Wolfram took the lead in systematically investigating possible CA structures in the early 1980s. By programmatically tweaking the rules in tens of thousands of alterations, then running them out and visually inspecting them, he acquired a sense of what was possible. He was able to generate patterns identical to those seen in seashells, animal skins, leaves, and sea creatures. His simple rules could generate a wildly complicated beauty, just as life could. Wolfram was working from the same inspiration that Fredkin did: The universe seems to behave like a vast cellular automaton.

Even the infinitesimally small and nutty realm of the quantum can't escape this sort of binary logic. We describe a quantum-level particle's existence as a continuous field of probabilities, which seems to blur the sharp distinction of is/isn't. Yet this uncertainty resolves as soon as information makes a difference (as in, as soon as it's measured). At that moment, all other possibilities collapse to leave only the single yes/no state. Indeed, the very term "quantum" suggests an indefinite realm constantly resolving into discrete increments, precise yes/no states.

For years, Wolfram explored the notion of universal computation in earnest (and in secret) while he built a business selling his popular software Mathematica. So convinced was he of the benefits of looking at the world as a gigantic Turing machine that he penned a 1,200-page magnum opus he modestly calls A New Kind of Science. Self-published in 2002, the book reinterprets nearly every field of science in terms of computation: "All processes, whether they are produced by human effort or occur spontaneously in nature, can be viewed as computation." (See "The Man Who Cracked the Code to Everything," Wired 10.6.)

Wolfram's key advance, however, is more subtly brilliant, and depends on the old Turing-Church hypothesis: All finite-state machines are equivalent. One computer can do anything another can do. This is why your Mac can, with proper software, pretend to be a PC or, with sufficient memory, a slow supercomputer. Wolfram demonstrates that the outputs of this universal computation are also computationally equivalent. Your brain and the physics of a cup being filled with water are equivalent, he says: for your mind to compute a thought and the universe to compute water particles falling, both require the same universal process.

If, as Fredkin and Wolfram suggest, all movement, all actions, all nouns, all functions, all states, all we see, hear, measure, and feel are various elaborate cathedrals built out of this single ubiquitous process, then the foundations of our knowledge are in for a galactic-scale revisioning in the coming decades. Already, the dream of devising a computational explanation for gravity, the speed of light, muons, Higgs bosons, momentum, and molecules has become the holy grail of theoretical physics. It would be a unified explanation of physics (digital physics), relativity (digital relativity), evolution (digital evolution and life), quantum mechanics, and computation itself, and at the bottom of it all would be squirming piles of the universal elements: loops of yes/no bits. Ed Fredkin has been busy honing his idea of digital physics and is completing a book called Digital Mechanics. Others, including Oxford theoretical physicist David Deutsch, are working on the same problem. Deutsch wants to go beyond physics and weave together four golden threads — epistemology, physics, evolutionary theory, and quantum computing — to produce what is unashamedly referred to by researchers as the Theory of Everything. Based on the primitives of quantum computation, it would swallow all other theories.

Any large computer these days can emulate a computer of some other design. You have Dell computers running Amigas. The Amigas, could, if anyone wanted them to, run Commodores. There is no end to how many nested worlds can be built. So imagine what a universal computer might do. If you had a universally equivalent engine, you could pop it in anywhere, including inside the inside of something else. And if you had a universe-sized computer, it could run all kinds of recursive worlds; it could, for instance, simulate an entire galaxy.

If smaller worlds have smaller worlds running within them, however, there has to be a platform that runs the first among them. If the universe is a computer, where is it running? Fredkin says that all this work happens on the "Other." The Other, he says, could be another universe, another dimension, another something. It's just not in this universe, and so he doesn't care too much about it. In other words, he punts. David Deutsch has a different theory. "The universality of computation is the most profound thing in the universe," he says. Since computation is absolutely independent of the "hardware" it runs on, studying it can tell us nothing about the nature or existence of that platform. Deutsch concludes it does not exist: "The universe is not a program running somewhere else. It is a universal computer, and there is nothing outside of it."

Strangely, nearly every mapper of this new digitalism foresees human-made computers taking over the natural universal computer. This is in part because they see nothing to stop the rapid expansion of computation, and in part because — well — why not? But if the entire universe is computing, why build our own expensive machines, especially when chip fabs cost several billion dollars to construct? Tommaso Toffoli, a quantum computer researcher, puts it best: "In a sense, nature has been continually computing the 'next state' of the universe for billions of years; all we have to do — and, actually, all we can do — is 'hitch a ride' on this huge, ongoing Great Computation."

In a June 2002 article published in the Physical Review Letters, MIT professor Seth Lloyd posed this question: If the universe was a computer, how powerful would it be? By analyzing the computing potential of quantum particles, he calculated the upper limit of how much computing power the entire universe (as we know it) has contained since the beginning of time. It's a large number: 10120 logical operations. There are two interpretations of this number. One is that it represents the performance "specs" of the ultimate computer. The other is that it's the amount required to simulate the universe on a quantum computer. Both statements illustrate the tautological nature of a digital universe: Every computer is the computer.

Continuing in this vein, Lloyd estimated the total amount of computation that has been accomplished by all human-made computers that have ever run. He came up with 1031 ops. (Because of the fantastic doubling of Moore's law, over half of this total was produced in the past two years!) He then tallied up the total energy-matter available in the known universe and divided that by the total energy-matter of human computers expanding at the rate of Moore's law. "We need 300 Moore's law doublings, or 600 years at one doubling every two years," he figures, "before all the available energy in the universe is taken up in computing. Of course, if one takes the perspective that the universe is already essentially performing a computation, then we don't have to wait at all. In this case, we may just have to wait for 600 years until the universe is running Windows or Linux."

The relative nearness of 600 years says more about exponential increases than it does about computers. Neither Lloyd nor any other scientist mentioned here realistically expects a second universal computer in 600 years. But what Lloyd's calculation proves is that over the long term, there is nothing theoretical to stop the expansion of computers. "In the end, the whole of space and its contents will be the computer. The universe will in the end consist, literally, of intelligent thought processes," David Deutsch proclaims in Fabric of Reality. These assertions echo those of the physicist Freeman Dyson, who also sees minds — amplified by computers — expanding into the cosmos "infinite in all directions."

Yet while there is no theoretical hitch to an ever-expanding computer matrix that may in the end resemble Asimov's universal machine, no one wants to see themselves as someone else's program running on someone else's computer. Put that way, life seems a bit secondhand.

Yet the notion that our existence is derived, like a string of bits, is an old and familiar one. Central to the evolution of Western civilization from its early Hellenistic roots has been the notion of logic, abstraction, and disembodied information. The saintly Christian guru John writes from Greece in the first century: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Charles Babbage, credited with constructing the first computer in 1832, saw the world as one gigantic instantiation of a calculating machine, hammered out of brass by God. He argued that in this heavenly computer universe, miracles were accomplished by divinely altering the rules of computation. Even miracles were logical bits, manipulated by God.

There's still confusion. Is God the Word itself, the Ultimate Software and Source Code, or is God the Ultimate Programmer? Or is God the necessary Other, the off-universe platform where this universe is computed?

But each of these three possibilities has at its root the mystical doctrine of universal computation. Somehow, according to digitalism, we are linked to one another, all beings alive and inert, because we share, as John Wheeler said, "at the bottom — at a very deep bottom, in most instances — an immaterial source." This commonality, spoken of by mystics of many beliefs in different terms, also has a scientific name: computation. Bits — minute logical atoms, spiritual in form — amass into quantum quarks and gravity waves, raw thoughts and rapid motions.

The computation of these bits is a precise, definable, yet invisible process that is immaterial yet produces matter.

"Computation is a process that is perhaps the process," says Danny Hillis, whose new book, The Pattern on the Stone, explains the formidable nature of computation. "It has an almost mystical character because it seems to have some deep relationship to the underlying order of the universe. Exactly what that relationship is, we cannot say. At least for now."

Probably the trippiest science book ever written is The Physics of Immortality, by Frank Tipler. If this book was labeled standard science fiction, no one would notice, but Tipler is a reputable physicist and Tulane University professor who writes papers for the International Journal of Theoretical Physics. In Immortality, he uses current understandings of cosmology and computation to declare that all living beings will be bodily resurrected after the universe dies. His argument runs roughly as follows: As the universe collapses upon itself in the last minutes of time, the final space-time singularity creates (just once) infinite energy and computing capacity. In other words, as the giant universal computer keeps shrinking in size, its power increases to the point at which it can simulate precisely the entire historical universe, past and present and possible. He calls this state the Omega Point. It is a computational space that can resurrect "from the dead" all the minds and bodies that have ever lived. The weird thing is that Tipler was an atheist when he developed this theory and discounted as mere "coincidence" the parallels between his ideas and the Christian doctrine of Heavenly Resurrection. Since then, he says, science has convinced him that the two may be identical.

While not everyone goes along with Tipler's eschatological speculations, theorists like Deutsch endorse his physics. An Omega Computer is possible and probably likely, they say.

I asked Tipler which side of the Fredkin gap he is on. Does he go along with the weak version of the ultimate computer, the metaphorical one, that says the universe only seems like a computer? Or does he embrace Fredkin's strong version, that the universe is a 12 billion-year-old computer and we are the killer app? "I regard the two statements as equivalent," he answered. "If the universe in all ways acts as if it was a computer, then what meaning could there be in saying that it is not a computer?"

Only hubris.
 

Whiskey Steve

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Wrap your mind around this one:)
oh i'm wrapped.......


there are many ways of looking at this...
you can look at it in the yes/no mode that the article speaks of. or take it from the other infinite aspects. Though i have to say im a fan of this proposed solution/explanation/formula (im not sure what word im searching for)
Everything is the same...
we talked earlier about if time exists or not. We can each decide for ourselves if it does or not. And I don't mean decide on the reality or inexistence of time; i mean whether you will allow its existence.
You can throw out your conceptions of time and let everything collapse into one moment. Yet the term moment cannot exist if you throw out time so I really ment for everthing to collapse into one. As soon as It is one It is everything.
I like how that scientist developed that theory of ressurection... And yes information and thoughts are all that are real.

Thoughts are all we have. They are the base of existence. They are the simplest "form". When you see something new you think about it. When you are reading this post right now, the farthest down you can take this is to think about it.
When you consider existence or " "(yes that's a blank) you can only think. That is "all".



btw, with the time thing. i really dont believe time exists. There are just alterations of the one.

EXODUS 3:14 (by the way i flipped my bible right open to this page....not by coincidence)
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
That is the most/only correct thing He could have said to Moses.


....and its my new sig
 

Whiskey Steve

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Also I thought I would post the beginning verses of ST JOHN so that those who do not have a Bible can see what that article was referring too.
ST JOHN
1 IN the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning
with God.
3 All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing
made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was
the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in dark-
ness; and the darkness compre-
hended it not.

ect...

also in verse 14 it says
14 And the Word was made flesh,
and dwelt among us, (and we be-
held his glory, the glory as of the
only begotten of the Father,) full
of grace and truth.

think about that phrase: and the Word was made flesh.
beautiful


btw that used to be my sig....
as you can see i share a very similar view to that of the article
 

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