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NO products = COMPLETE SCAM

NO HYPE said:
Most people are under the impression that the entire reason for the increase in blood flow, is the release of NO. What they are not aware of, is that increases in blood flow actually stimulate flow-dependent NO formation.
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Socrates44 said:
...which would actually decrease the bodies natural ability to produce NO. If you are taking in exogenous NO, your body will respond with upregulating arginase and down regulation cGMP binding sights on the arteriole muscle.
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What most people (NO marketing included) are unaware of, is the fact that cGMP is the key factor in NO-mediated vasodilation.

This is why compounds like Viagra, utilize phosphodiesterase inhibitors to inhibit the deterioration of cGMP.... thereby improving dysfunctional NO-mediated vasodilation.
 
NO HYPE said:
What most people (NO marketing included) are unaware of, is the fact that cGMP is the key factor in NO-mediated vasodilation.

This is why compounds like Viagra, utilize phosphodiesterase inhibitors to inhibit the deterioration of cGMP.... thereby improving dysfunctional NO-mediated vasodilation.
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exactly, and it really urks me when people praise l-norvaline. All you are doing is spending money on a product that is going to harm yourself.
 
How is it a scam when there is research indicating that it increases blood flow?

There is a difference between making claims that are too bold and being an outright scam.
 
Sir Savage said:
How is it a scam when there is research indicating that [highlight]it[/highlight] increases blood flow?
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Arginine is not in question here.... it's the two letters "NO" in the phrase "NO products" that's a scam, and all the BS hype that accompanies it.
 
You keep saying that, but you've made posts about how bad you think NO is.

If it's just about the hype that accompanies NO products, then why go out of your way to try to show that NO is bad, knowing full well that "NO products" will be associated with arginine?
 
I never liked NO products until I tried superpump 250. Its great, and it makes my johnson rock solid. Needless to say the gf loves superpump as well.
 
Sir Savage said:
You keep saying that, but you've made posts about how bad you think NO is.
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Where did I suggest that "I think NO is bad"?

I made my opinion on the matter, clear from the opening paragraph that NO was beneficial.

NO HYPE said:
Most of us are well aware of the beneficial mechanisms of nitric oxide however.... this thread is in response to all of the hype that accompanies these so-called.... "NO" products, and adresses the reasons why I feel that the hype is complete BS. It also nullifies the entire logic behind NO up-regulation in healthy adults. :D

In healthy adults (provided there is no shortage of the NO substrate), there is no need for NO up-regulation, and if there were a need.... it would not be possible to significantly up-regulate via the oral arginine-based "NO products", due to the p53-mediated, regulatory negative feedback loop.

I would not want to inhibit iNOS-derived, high-output NO (as it can be beneficial as well as detrimental).... I would just rather not have it up-regulated.
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NO HYPE said:
Supplemental arginine's role as the one and only NO substrate, is not in question here.... it's the hype that accompanies the claims of the NO products.
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I also indicated that the cytotoxic properties of NO overproduction, were not acheivable via arginine or the so-called NO products.

NO HYPE said:
Supplemental arginine is a great addition for maintaining it's endogenous role as a NO substrate however, these NO products (as much as the hype indicates otherwise), do not even aquire the ability to significantly up-regulate NO.
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NO HYPE said:
Where did I suggest that "I think NO is bad"?

I made my opinion on the matter, clear from the opening paragraph that NO was beneficial.
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But you followed that up with out of context research, without adequate explanation as to how they relate to "NO products", a term that you know people are going to associate with arginine, so it seemed as though you were trying to generate hype.

Plus, you're maintaining the blanket statement that they are all a scam.

If you're not saying NO is bad in normal physiological levels, nor is arginine supplementation, then cool. I just think you could have explained what exactly you were getting at a little better.
 
Sir Savage said:
If it's just about the hype that accompanies NO products, then why go out of your way to try to show that NO is bad, knowing full well that "NO products" will be associated with arginine?
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I'm not going out of my way, and overproduction of NO is bad.

The marketing campaigns behind NO products will not reveal the truth about excessive NO production.... it would defeat the entire logic behind their claims.

NO products are just vasodilators. They are incapable of significantly upregulating endogenous concentrations of NO, and they are especially incapable of causing detrimental damage via excessive NO production.

The claims behind NO products are a complete joke.... not arginine.
 
I dont even know how they can make the "perpetual pump" claim. Like I stated before, as exogenous NO intake increases, so do the enzymes that degredate them (arginase). The feeling of the "perpetual pump" is that of being a dumb-@$$ in my opinion. The mind is a powerful thing, and if you give it a little, it will run.

However, I have had great gains using Arginine, Lysine and Co-Q10 at night to raise GH and test.
 
I forgot to mention those, I take ornithine because it is in White Blood. Honestly, white blood by controlled labs is the best NO i have come across. They really considered the anti-oxidants with the NO. I have been very pleased, instead of GABA i take 5-HTP which helps with serotonin and catecholamine life-expectancy.
 
Socrates44 said:
I forgot to mention those, I take ornithine because it is in White Blood. Honestly, white blood by controlled labs is the best NO i have come across. They really considered the anti-oxidants with the NO. I have been very pleased, instead of GABA i take 5-HTP which helps with serotonin and catecholamine life-expectancy.
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Nice.
 
NO HYPE said:
.... Oh, the humor.
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Is that dry-wit something you practice? Because the last few days I have been trying in vain to match, or possibly succeed, your level of wit, but it's damn near impossible.

I just figure my diet and wit training is not "in the zone" enough. I think adding some NO may give me that boost I need. Increase blood flow.
 
Mulletsoldier said:
Is that dry-wit something you practice? Because the last few days I have been trying in vain to match, or possibly succeed, your level of wit, but it's damn near impossible.

I just figure my diet and wit training is not "in the zone" enough. I think adding some NO may give me that boost I need. Increase blood flow.
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Wow.... Thanks for your invaluable input to this thread. I was hoping someone of your stature might grace us with his presence, and straighten everything out. I actually had trouble sleeping at night, just thinking about it, but thanks to you Mulletsoldier.... my worries are now over.

Thanks again for your input.
 
NO HYPE said:
Do you mean the other side of the argument that every company uses to promote NO products?:D
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LOL That's one hell of a [sensible] way to look @ it :goodpost:

poison said:
I never got endurance from arginine. Citrulline is another story.
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I'm assuming you're talking about [citrulline] malate. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on CM? It's been recommended to me recently and I've been wanting to look into trying it out sometime in the near future. I train for boxing so I feel something like that would do nothing but benefit my training. I would really appreciate your feedback on CM and if anything, feel free to PM me in spite of the potential thread jack :)

This is a great thread no doubt. I think the bold and colored lettering from NO HYPE make him - unique. LOL:icon_lol: I can deal with it....just him though.
 
Citrulline Malate can be used for two different effects.

1.) using the similarity between citrulline and arginine for NO potentiating effects

2.) the malate portion of the compound is an intermediate of the TCA (krebs), which will help with NADH and over ATP production for longer endurance.


I have personally had great results with CM. Anavol by Nxlabs, formerly Nxcare is one of my all-time favorite products.
 
let me help ya a lil.....
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one face in the middle spanning the rainbow(with mouth in the red stripes of rainbow) and touching both skulls.... the inverse of both skulls and the sides of the center face are also faces (in the blue stripe of the rainbow) not to mention the faces on both fetuses that are what at first apear to be the brains of both skulls.... totalling

3 reg faces
2 skull faces
2 fetus faces....

and ya hallucinagens aint my thing either, i still very much apreciate trippy art, salvador dali is an altime fav. and classic artist
 
As far as the research goes, there is nothing to show that it does anything to contribute to muscle growth or increased performance. As far as the science goes, it’s no better than a capsule full of dirt. There is no evidence at all showing this no type product imparts any of the effects claimed. If you read the ads, you’ll see that they never reference a single research study. Why is that? Because there is no research. None whatsoever. The marketers of NO2 also claim that NO2 increases nitric oxide levels within muscle and this causes a dramatic increase in muscle size, strength, endurance, power output and load capacity. Why didn't they just say it would increase wealth, fame, sexuality, intelligence, and looks. They might as well have, they would have just as much research to support these claims. Which happens to be none.

The “active” ingredient in NO2 that is supposed to produce these effects is arginine alpha-ketogluterate. Once the marketing smoke screen is swept aside, you’ll find there is no scientific evidence that even remotely substantiates these claims. None, zero, nada, zilch.

Nitric oxide is a colorless, free radical gas commonly found in tissues of all mammals (it’s also prepared commercially by passing air through an electric arc). Biologically, nitric oxide has been shown to be an important neuro-messenger in many vertebrate signal transduction processes. Nitric oxide is considered a natural vasodilator of smooth muscle (not skeletal muscle). While nitric oxide acts as a cell-to-cell communicator for certain metabolic functions, muscle growth is not one of them. No research anywhere indicates that increasing nitric oxide levels plays a part in increasing protein synthesis, contractile strength or any other biochemical pathway that may lead to net gains in muscle mass.

While there is a lot of research on the effects of nitric oxide, there is no evidence that arginine alpha-ketogluterate supplementation will increase or sustain nitric oxide levels in skeletal muscles. There is also no evidence that increasing nitric oxide levels will enhance muscle growth or any metabolic pathway that may enhance muscle growth. There is no evidence to suggest that increasing nitric oxide levels may improve any other parameter of athletic performance.
 
My philosophy has always been to research a product to try to be sure it is reasonably safe, then try it.

I have used many NO products at varying dosages up to very high. My results have been next to nothing.

My point is, I think it is great to see all of these studies saying it is effective, etc, etc. But at the end of the day, it falls flat (for me at least) in the trenches.

The outrageous claims only make it worse. They set expectations that aren't even close to attainable and then many of us are sitting around feeling like we got used and abused like in the good old days (Cybergenics anyone?).

I just dated myself, but it makes me want to Bruce Lee somebody just thinking about it.:bruce1:
 
djbombsquad said:
As far as the research goes, there is nothing to show that it does anything to contribute to muscle growth or increased performance. As far as the science goes, it’s no better than a capsule full of dirt. There is no evidence at all showing this no type product imparts any of the effects claimed.
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Um, yeeeaaah, I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there, mmmkay?

It is one tool out of many that bodybuilders can use to help them achieve their goals. Furthermore, it is beneficial for some disease states.

I plan on posting more research, but for now, take a look at stuff I posted on page one, plus this one. As soon as Medline stops acting ghey, I'll post more.

1: Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Nov;291(5):E906-12. Epub 2006 Jun 13. Links
Beneficial effects of a long-term oral L-arginine treatment added to a hypocaloric diet and exercise training program in obese, insulin-resistant type 2 diabetic patients.Lucotti P, Setola E, Monti LD, Galluccio E, Costa S, Sandoli EP, Fermo I, Rabaiotti G, Gatti R, Piatti P.
Diabetology, Endocrinology and Metabolic Disease Unit, Fondazione Centro San Raffaele del Monte Tabor, Milan, Italy.

Because chronic L-arginine supplementation improves insulin sensitivity and endothelial function in nonobese type 2 diabetic patients, the aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of a long-term oral L-arginine therapy on adipose fat mass (FM) and muscle free-fat mass (FFM) distribution, daily glucose levels, insulin sensitivity, endothelial function, oxidative stress, and adipokine release in obese type 2 diabetic patients with insulin resistance who were treated with a combined period of hypocaloric diet and exercise training. Thirty-three type 2 diabetic patients participated in a hypocaloric diet plus an exercise training program for 21 days. Furthermore, they were divided into two groups in randomized order: the first group was also treated with L-arginine (8.3 g/day), and the second group was treated with placebo. Although in the placebo group body weight, waist circumference, daily glucose profiles, fructosamine, insulin, and homeostasis model assessment index significantly decreased, L-arginine supplementation further decreased FM (P < 0.05) and waist circumference (P < 0.0001), preserving FFM (P < 0.03), and improved mean daily glucose profiles (P < 0.0001) and fructosamine (P < 0.03). Moreover, change in area under the curve of cGMP (second messenger of nitric oxide; P < 0.001), superoxide dismutase (index of antioxidant capacity; P < 0.01), and adiponectin levels (P < 0.02) increased, whereas basal endothelin-1 levels (P < 0.01) and leptin-to-adiponectin ratio (P < 0.05) decreased in the L-arginine group. Long-term oral L-arginine treatment resulted in an additive effect compared with a diet and exercise training program alone on glucose metabolism and insulin sensitivity. Furthermore, it improved endothelial function, oxidative stress, and adipokine release in obese type 2 diabetic patients with insulin resistance.

PMID: 16772327 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Sir Savage said:
Um, yeeeaaah, I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there, mmmkay?

It is one tool out of many that bodybuilders can use to help them achieve their goals. Furthermore, it is beneficial for some disease states.

I plan on posting more research, but for now, take a look at stuff I posted on page one, plus this one. As soon as Medline stops acting ghey, I'll post more.

1: Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Nov;291(5):E906-12. Epub 2006 Jun 13. Links
Beneficial effects of a long-term oral L-arginine treatment added to a hypocaloric diet and exercise training program in obese, insulin-resistant type 2 diabetic patients.Lucotti P, Setola E, Monti LD, Galluccio E, Costa S, Sandoli EP, Fermo I, Rabaiotti G, Gatti R, Piatti P.
Diabetology, Endocrinology and Metabolic Disease Unit, Fondazione Centro San Raffaele del Monte Tabor, Milan, Italy.

Because chronic L-arginine supplementation improves insulin sensitivity and endothelial function in nonobese type 2 diabetic patients, the aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of a long-term oral L-arginine therapy on adipose fat mass (FM) and muscle free-fat mass (FFM) distribution, daily glucose levels, insulin sensitivity, endothelial function, oxidative stress, and adipokine release in obese type 2 diabetic patients with insulin resistance who were treated with a combined period of hypocaloric diet and exercise training. Thirty-three type 2 diabetic patients participated in a hypocaloric diet plus an exercise training program for 21 days. Furthermore, they were divided into two groups in randomized order: the first group was also treated with L-arginine (8.3 g/day), and the second group was treated with placebo. Although in the placebo group body weight, waist circumference, daily glucose profiles, fructosamine, insulin, and homeostasis model assessment index significantly decreased, L-arginine supplementation further decreased FM (P < 0.05) and waist circumference (P < 0.0001), preserving FFM (P < 0.03), and improved mean daily glucose profiles (P < 0.0001) and fructosamine (P < 0.03). Moreover, change in area under the curve of cGMP (second messenger of nitric oxide; P < 0.001), superoxide dismutase (index of antioxidant capacity; P < 0.01), and adiponectin levels (P < 0.02) increased, whereas basal endothelin-1 levels (P < 0.01) and leptin-to-adiponectin ratio (P < 0.05) decreased in the L-arginine group. Long-term oral L-arginine treatment resulted in an additive effect compared with a diet and exercise training program alone on glucose metabolism and insulin sensitivity. Furthermore, it improved endothelial function, oxidative stress, and adipokine release in obese type 2 diabetic patients with insulin resistance.

PMID: 16772327 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Not arguing with the science at all (although I have a lot of hands on experience with medical studies and realize how results can be manipulated). My concern with NO has always been that it either doesn't deliver, or I am a "non responder".

As for treatment of clinical conditions, not really my focus in using in the first place.

Could just be an unfortunate case for me and others may get great results, just seems like as time goes no more people are saying no mas.
 
Well keep in mind that product formulations can have a lot to do with your experience. One product is formulated sometimes much differently than others.

Also, other things you're taking can interfere with your experience.

But I think saying that it's no better than eating a capsule of dirt is a little much, don't you think?
 
Sir Savage said:
Well keep in mind that product formulations can have a lot to do with your experience. One product is formulated sometimes much differently than others.

Also, other things you're taking can interfere with your experience.

But I think saying that it's no better than eating a capsule of dirt is a little much, don't you think?
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No doubt. I agree, that is saying a bit much.

I think that comment was probably driven by frustration with some of the crazy claims that some companies make.

I think you would probably agree that all the 1000% increase in test levels after one use bs has gotten a bit dated.

I understand the goal of marketing is to move units, but I think a lot of companies do themselves and the entire industry a disservice by using that dated approach.

I am not talking about your company, or any one company in particular.

I think right now we are sorely in need of realistic expectations by consumers and realistic claims by the companies. Just my opinion.
 
Yeah, I hear ya'.

And I'll be honest here- we've decided to do an "NO" product. But since we're nothing like most other companies, we're not going to be making ridiculous statements or give y'all a BS formula.

It's just going to help you achieve excellent pumps, muscle fullness, muscle hardness, and ultimately, anabolism. No more, no less. An L-arginine derivative will indeed be in there, but there are many other mechanisms we're going through using other ingredients, as well.

Basically, we're going to show how to do "NO" correctly- as one tool of many to help you achieve better performance and muscle mass- not the end-all, be-all that some companies make it out to be.
 
Sir Savage said:
Yeah, I hear ya'.

And I'll be honest here- we've decided to do an "NO" product. But since we're nothing like most other companies, we're not going to be making ridiculous statements or give y'all a BS formula.

It's just going to help you achieve excellent pumps, muscle fullness, muscle hardness, and ultimately, anabolism. No more, no less. An L-arginine derivative will indeed be in there, but there are many other mechanisms we're going through using other ingredients, as well.

Basically, we're going to show how to do "NO" correctly- as one tool of many to help you achieve better performance and muscle mass- not the end-all, be-all that some companies make it out to be.
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I respect the fact that you brought that up. I really think NO is one of those products that you have to take into consideration other variables. Meaning, if you are doing a lot of stims, it will offset the effects, etc.

I actually own part of a supplement company as a silent investor (If you have ever seen UFC, you've seen us), and I constantly try to drive home the moderation point in advertising. It is the only way any company will ever appeal to the masses. I'm not saying sell out on the die hards, but some of the same claims that the die hards bite on, scare the **** out of the average joe.

I've aways had very good success with your products. I feel like you advertising is reasonable and I have nothing against anyone getting excited about their products, they should! I personally and I think many others are just tired of the b**** nutty claims. Major deterent for me to buy anything from anyone who does it.
 
Ah, cool, I think I know exactly who you're part owner of.

Yeah, I hear you on the nutty claims. We've always been against that and we're about to make a big push into the mainstream to bring our message of "science first" to the masses.
 
Sir Savage said:
Ah, cool, I think I know exactly who you're part owner of.

Yeah, I hear you on the nutty claims. We've always been against that and we're about to make a big push into the mainstream to bring our message of "science first" to the masses.
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Good luck my man.
 
NO products seem to be just like everything else in the supplement industry in my opinion. They all 'do something' to varying degrees. It's just the effect, and potency of this effect that is to be argued. Most of the time they have varying amounts of truth to the hype. If it made everyone that took it sick and weak, they wouldn't sell much at all would they?

Besides, snake oil vendors have been around since long before there was the scientific efforts to prove or disprove their products.

If it works for you, that's good enough right? If it doesn't, then don't buy it again. Most products won't stick around long if it doesn't do much of anything. Although if it's sold at Wal-mart, and is marketed during Nascar and NFL games, it may have a bit more staying power.

But in the realm of people who care about such things, fads come and die VERY quickly. If NO is just a fad and has no real benefits whatsoever, it'll die just like everything else that is sugar in a pill.

If it works, it will have some staying power. Time will tell.
 
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