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NO or Glutamine?

SonicSWOLE said:
Yeah, I see your point. Damn, I don't buy this hype over testosterone either. But, if someone posted some CURRENT studies on testosterone.....that must be the only way to prove it truly does increase LBM.
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I see the bounds of a scientific discussion are over your head. Which is why I didn't address the question to you.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Ok, please post the CURRENT studies showing oral arginine increases NO at relevant doses in humans.
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post your studies and i'll post mine.
this is not some tactic, i just want you to do work too, sick of ppl asking for things, then discrediting things.
i want to see where you are getting your info and i'll show my info
 
Bnatural said:
post your studies and i'll post mine.
this is not some tactic, i just want you to do work too, sick of ppl asking for things, then discrediting things.
i want to see where you are getting your info and i'll show my info
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how mature we are . . . I'll cover coop.

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^^ There are multiple studies in there, hope its enough 'proof' for ya.
 
AndrewNico said:
how mature we are . . . I'll cover coop.

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^^ There are multiple studies in there, hope its enough 'proof' for ya.
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thanks man, was out all day today.

Bnatural said:
let him do his own work
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Come on dude. You don't know how much time I put into this job. Good info is good info. Here's a more recent one:

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This examines more than just NO, and the parameters are extremely relevant. And it's also from 2011.

Bnatural said:
there's a few studies cited in here
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Will read now. As I mentioned earlier, there are always studies with conflicting reports on a topic. What's important is the general consensus from the most recent, best-constructed, and most relevant studies.
 
In your link,

Citation 1: Dose is absurdly high
Cit 2: Intravenous 30g
Cit 3: 3g arginine every hour for 10 hours is a bit excessive

Quote highlighting discrepancies in research, from your link: We believe that the doses, routes (oral vs. intravenous), duration of treatment, and disease states in these studies may be contributing factors to this discrepancy.

Couldnt agree more with that quote. In terms of relevance for healthy trainees dosing arginine at a couple grams orally on a daily basis, it's a waste. but anyway, that sums up your link's mini-review of the effects of arginine on NO. I'm not convinced...
 
Here's a good one, regarding a relevant preworkout dose

J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2010 Mar;50(1):52-6.
Olek RA et al.
A single oral intake of arginine does not affect performance during repeated Wingate anaerobic test.

Abstract
AIM: The ergogenic effect of arginine has been demonstrated in research focusing on its intake before exercise. However, in these studies, the effect of arginine in combination with other various metabolites were assessed. The aim of this study was to determine whether a single oral intake of arginine, without any other compounds, 60 minutes prior to exercise, modifies performance and exercise metabolism during a repeated Wingate anaerobic test. METHODS: Six healthy, active, but not highly trained volunteers participated in the study. Subjects performed three 30s all-out supramaximal Wingate Anaerobic Tests (WAnTs) with 4 minute-interval rest periods between WAnTs. RESULTS: Arginine ingestion before exercise did not influence physical performance. Triple WAnTs resulted in a marked increase in white blood cell (WBC) count, lactate and ammonia concentrations, however there were no differences between arginine and the placebo trials. CONCLUSION: Our data indicated that 2 g of arginine ingested in a single dose, neither induced nitrite/nitrate (NOx) concentrations changes, nor improved physical performance.


inb4 2g is obviously not enough
 
mr.cooper69 said:
In your link,

Citation 1: Dose is absurdly high
Cit 2: Intravenous 30g
Cit 3: 3g arginine every hour for 10 hours is a bit excessive

Quote highlighting discrepancies in research, from your link: We believe that the doses, routes (oral vs. intravenous), duration of treatment, and disease states in these studies may be contributing factors to this discrepancy.

Couldnt agree more with that quote. In terms of relevance for healthy trainees dosing arginine at a couple grams orally on a daily basis, it's a waste. but anyway, that sums up your link's mini-review of the effects of arginine on NO. I'm not convinced...
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I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just showing what I've found. As far as arginine goes, I don't use it exclusively and if it's in my pre-workout powder, I don't have issue with that. I agree with your statement here:
As I mentioned earlier, there are always studies with conflicting reports on a topic. What's important is the general consensus from the most recent, best-constructed, and most relevant studies.
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which is more or less of what I was getting at.
I have no direct beef with you as I stated. I can put 30 smilies in a post to show my tone, but that only goes so far. There's emphasis on different words and each person will emphasize words differently to draw whatever conclusions they wish regarding a statement.
I'll read through the study, and as far as it goes, I enjoy reading studies, but don't want to log on here to see if you made a jab at me and I don't want you doing the same. When I saw your post and it seemed as though you wanted me to fix my attitude, it just pissed me off, so I went on a tangent. So far things have stayed pretty relevant to the topic at hand, but to keep the thread informative, I'll keep finding studies, you can do the same, but know I don't have direct beef with you and my statements aren't made to piss you off.
 
At doses that high, I would think most people's mouths would be infested with cold sores, no? Supplemental lysine and ornithine would most likely come into the picture as well.
 
Bnatural said:
I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just showing what I've found. As far as arginine goes, I don't use it exclusively and if it's in my pre-workout powder, I don't have issue with that. I agree with your statement here:

which is more or less of what I was getting at.
I have no direct beef with you as I stated. I can put 30 smilies in a post to show my tone, but that only goes so far. There's emphasis on different words and each person will emphasize words differently to draw whatever conclusions they wish regarding a statement.
I'll read through the study, and as far as it goes, I enjoy reading studies, but don't want to log on here to see if you made a jab at me and I don't want you doing the same. When I saw your post and it seemed as though you wanted me to fix my attitude, it just pissed me off, so I went on a tangent. So far things have stayed pretty relevant to the topic at hand, but to keep the thread informative, I'll keep finding studies, you can do the same, but know I don't have direct beef with you and my statements aren't made to piss you off.
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Dont worry I will not make jabs at you. I have nothing against you personally and am glad you are engaging in a scientific discussion. I do, however, lack any sort of respect for SonicSwole and his immaturity ITT.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion thus far, and I really recommend reading the one study I posted. Obviously Nico's are great as well, but the 2011 study is as fresh as they come.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
I see the bounds of a scientific discussion are over your head. Which is why I didn't address the question to you.
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I have a lot more paper on my wall........so, your inaccurate insults don't bother me. You also are not the OP, so don't act like this is your thread. You can dig up your own research, I don't feeel like doing it for you, but don't just pick and choose what fits your argument. Also pay close attention to the actual parameters and use your own head. Aside from being judgmental and argumentative (and overtly myopic), you do seem to have a higher quotient the some others. Really look at the parameters.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Dont worry I will not make jabs at you. I have nothing against you personally and am glad you are engaging in a scientific discussion. I do, however, lack any sort of respect for SonicSwole and his immaturity ITT.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion thus far, and I really recommend reading the one study I posted. Obviously Nico's are great as well, but the 2011 study is as fresh as they come.
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I appreciate the mention. I do believe everything I have stated has been mature. You are the only poster in this thread of whom an insult has come from. So maybe you should re-evaluate that statement. Also, it seems that asl I previously mentioned that you are very myopic, this is not an insu;t or negative banter, just simply an observation. As far as whether I hold your respect or not.....well, that just doesn't matter to me. Just like any positive or negative reps. I can tell you I have wasted far too much time in this thread.
 
SonicSWOLE said:
I have a lot more paper on my wall........so, your inaccurate insults don't bother me. You also are not the OP, so don't act like this is your thread. You can dig up your own research, I don't feeel like doing it for you, but don't just pick and choose what fits your argument. Also pay close attention to the actual parameters and use your own head. Aside from being judgmental and argumentative (and overtly myopic), you do seem to have a higher quotient the some others. Really look at the parameters.
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A bit late are we? The research has already been posted AND I commented on the other party's research. Again, I am speaking to the MST rep and Aleksander, yet you are, in fact, the one that is coming in here and acting like this is your own thread while still offering no scientific validation of your viewpoints. I've provided mine. Care to comment on them?
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Dont worry I will not make jabs at you. I have nothing against you personally and am glad you are engaging in a scientific discussion. I do, however, lack any sort of respect for SonicSwole and his immaturity ITT.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion thus far, and I really recommend reading the one study I posted. Obviously Nico's are great as well, but the 2011 study is as fresh as they come.
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I read through the study.
I'll continue to look, and not that it has much bearing for science as the search engines aren't very "smart" as they go for keywords, but when you search arginine and nitric oxide, you get quite a bit of info, none really scientific, but just google it and you'll see what I mean.
It's something that kind of ingrains the relation between arginine and NO boosting, similar to how glutamine has such a huge bearing on recovery and being the "king" of amino acids, notice king being in quotes.
 
Bnatural said:
I read through the study.
I'll continue to look, and not that it has much bearing for science as the search engines aren't very "smart" as they go for keywords, but when you search arginine and nitric oxide, you get quite a bit of info, none really scientific, but just google it and you'll see what I mean.
It's something that kind of ingrains the relation between arginine and NO boosting, similar to how glutamine has such a huge bearing on recovery and being the "king" of amino acids, notice king being in quotes.
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I know what you mean, but I also feel like a line must be drawn.

Arginine is the precursor to NO, there is no debate about this. The question becomes, how do we increase the arginine/NO pool of the body in the most efficient manner possible? I am not debating that arginine supplementation SHOULD increase NO...it absolutely should. However, studies show that something about the dosing protocol, delivery method, etc of arginine supplements prevents it from doing so.

Glutamine is another animal of course, and we can debate that another time. Glutamine should also theoretically aid in recovery, but being a non-essential amino acid, I feel like you would either need to megadose it (which seems wasteful for a nonessential amino) or be in a state where you are wasting away, as per the studies. A far more beneficial alternative to glutamine for muscle retention is Leucine.
 
Again, if a study is not being posted in the defense of arginine then saying arginine increase NO is like saying the sky is green. We all know the sky is blue b/c we SEE the proof day in and day out.

Let the board see the proof and this discussion can either end or progress. Frankly, it's become a pissing match at this point.
 
purebred said:
Again, if a study is not being posted in the defense of arginine then saying arginine increase NO is like saying the sky is green. We all know the sky is blue b/c we SEE the proof day in and day out.

Let the board see the proof and this discussion can either end or progress. Frankly, it's become a pissing match at this point.
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the pissing match has been settled. studies will be posted.
 
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btw if you do your studies glutamine does have times when it is useful..not all the time if you train hitt-dc type stuff or getting ready for a show -severe overload -yes

or sick

btw Ive used Mst glutamine getting ready for a contest last year and its by favorite right now-the ajomoto or whatever-I used to use the gl3 by ast religiously-
 
id do both op. glutamine is a great supp for recovery. my clients all use it and take in about 30g a day and theyr results have been much better than the ones who dont. it truly has tremendous anabolic effects as glutamine substrate pools are severely depleted after a workout and restoration of them surely helps everyone
 
I've been using arginine for over 10 years. Recently, I've found that 3g of arginine preworkout gives me a crazier pump than 1g arginine nitrate.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Sigh to #74 and #75. The discussion will have to wait, I take the MCAT in 3 days :( :(
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#74 is a bit over the top, and I hate seeing those recommendations, as the placebo effect has to be absolutely crazy. A product that I am consuming by the truckload better do something.

#75 is a personal opinion, and this is why arginine sticks around, there is the "feel it" factor, and the nitrate portion doesn't surprise me as it is hit or miss, esp. dependent on which company is providing the nitrates. I used CM2 and didn't see JACK, but I enjoyed Pumpbol and Power Shock.
 
Bnatural said:
#74 is a bit over the top, and I hate seeing those recommendations, as the placebo effect has to be absolutely crazy. A product that I am consuming by the truckload better do something.

#75 is a personal opinion, and this is why arginine sticks around, there is the "feel it" factor, and the nitrate portion doesn't surprise me as it is hit or miss, esp. dependent on which company is providing the nitrates. I used CM2 and didn't see JACK, but I enjoyed Pumpbol and Power Shock.
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he was sighing for a different, far less important reason
 
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