New KSM-66 Study

Chefdeez said:
Ultimate T which has ksm-66 makes my eyes feel really tired almost as if I took Benadryl. Nothing a little caffeine can't fix for me.
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I've noticed this as well at times, both with KSM and higher doses of a less potent extract (500mg of a 1.5% extract). It doesn't last long, and doesn't make me tired/lethargic as long as I take some caffeine with it.
 
kisaj said:
You are comparing rhodiola to ashwagandha. Higher rosavins are serotonergic while higher salidrosides are dopaminergic. The 3:1 ratio has been found to be the favorable ratio and the standard. Altering these in either direction provides the effects sought after.

Withanolides are the active ingredient in ashwagandha.
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3:1 seems to be the standard for supplements, but isn't most of the research using SHR-5? It seems difficult to pin down exact specifications for that extract, but the studies I've seen often mention salidroside content between 2-3% and rosavin content at 3%+ (doesn't seem to be mentioned as often as salidroside content if I recall).
 
Most studies an rhodiola are done with 3:1 rosavin:salidroside and considered the standard and what I believe is naturally occurring. The only mention of SHR-5 I have come across is in the Examine article.
 
kisaj said:
Most studies an rhodiola are done with 3:1 rosavin:salidroside and considered the standard and what I believe is naturally occurring. The only mention of SHR-5 I have come across is in the Examine article.
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I've seen a handful of studies on healthy individuals using SHR-5 (military personnel, university students, physicians, etc).
 
kisaj said:
Most studies an rhodiola are done with 3:1 rosavin:salidroside and considered the standard and what I believe is naturally occurring. The only mention of SHR-5 I have come across is in the Examine article.
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There are good human studies on SHR-5.
From combating depression , stress related fatigue to boosting capacity for mental work
 
Danes said:
There are good human studies on SHR-5.
From combating depression , stress related fatigue to boosting capacity for mental work
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Yep. I just looked back through some more studies; one that concluded " Acute Rhodiola rosea intake can improve endurance exercise capacity in young healthy volunteers. This response was not altered by prior daily 4-week Rhodiola intake" used 200mg of a 3:1 rosavin:salidroside extract, so it's still good.

It seems that, based on many studies I've read, you don't need much rhodiola, as higher doses (double) have often failed to really outperform lower doses, and quite low doses have been shown to be effective as well.

I'm going to pick up a 3:1 extract and see how it compares to a 3% salidroside extract. I'm almost out of the SHR-5 caps I have now.
 
There is a point of diminished returns I have found with rhodiola. If I go too high, I get very tired.
 
kisaj said:
Most studies an rhodiola are done with 3:1 rosavin:salidroside and considered the standard and what I believe is naturally occurring. The only mention of SHR-5 I have come across is in the Examine article.
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One study noted:
However, a strongest effect was observed with fixed
combination of compounds 1–5, each at a dose of
0.26 mg/kg, reduced the immobility time compared with
the control by 81.08%, strongly indicating a synergistic
effect of the active ingredients in RR extract.
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So it seems that an extract with both salidroside and rosavins is best; I'm going to have to check the COA for the extract I use. If it's very low in rosavins, I may find another source.

Sorry for turning this into a Rhodiola thread.
 
It wouldn't be rhodiola without both. ;) But standard is 3:1 and depending on how it is swayed in ratio, alters the effect that it has.
 
First 2-3 days, KSM66 (500mg) made me soooo tired and lethargic. But it went away. Then I increased to 750mg and I got the same effect as when I began with 500mg. 2-3 days after, i did not felt lethargic anymore. I do prefer them 1-2 hours before bedtime
 
Danes said:
First 2-3 days, KSM66 (500mg) made me soooo tired and lethargic. But it went away. Then I increased to 750mg and I got the same effect as when I began with 500mg. 2-3 days after, i did not felt lethargic anymore. I do prefer them 1-2 hours before bedtime
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I had similar effects. Now I always dose it before bedtime and I sleep great. I notice the benefits of a better mood during the day as well. Dosing KSM in the morning made me feel like a sloth. A happy sloth, but a sloth nonetheless.
 
Danes said:
First 2-3 days, KSM66 (500mg) made me soooo tired and lethargic. But it went away. Then I increased to 750mg and I got the same effect as when I began with 500mg. 2-3 days after, i did not felt lethargic anymore. I do prefer them 1-2 hours before bedtime
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Wish it went away for me. I'd been taking 300 mg, twice each day for weeks and the lethargy never decreased or went away. If anything, I became more tired and demotivated. Made getting anything done at work very difficult...I just didn't seem to care and would often just space out for long periods of time. On the positive side, I didn't have any problems with social anxiety (such as giving a presentation at work). Normally something like that would have my heart pounding and I'd get very shaky/sweaty. However, while taking ksm-66 I didn't feel any of that.
 
Hmm, people really feel tired from ashwaganda?

I do feel maybe a little more calm but never drowsy from it.

Maybe I'll feel it a little bit when I try KSM-66.
 
Insomnia from KSM-66 for me. No pre-bed dosing.
 
Danes said:
First 2-3 days, KSM66 (500mg) made me soooo tired and lethargic. But it went away. Then I increased to 750mg and I got the same effect as when I began with 500mg. 2-3 days after, i did not felt lethargic anymore. I do prefer them 1-2 hours before bedtime
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Got the same effect. Took one cap the first time (ksm66 300mg) and got very calm and lethargic. Actually enjoyed it. It went away though.
Is it wise to take a break from ashwagandha? 2-4 weeks?
 
Pec.Major said:
Got the same effect. Took one cap the first time (ksm66 300mg) and got very calm and lethargic. Actually enjoyed it. It went away though.
Is it wise to take a break from ashwagandha? 2-4 weeks?
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I am running KSM66 3months, takkng a 4 weeks break and then begin with Schisandra
 
Danes said:
First 2-3 days, KSM66 (500mg) made me soooo tired and lethargic. But it went away. Then I increased to 750mg and I got the same effect as when I began with 500mg. 2-3 days after, i did not felt lethargic anymore. I do prefer them 1-2 hours before bedtime
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I'm switching to before bedtime too, Only started a a few days ago and have felt tired and a little sick.
 
Danes said:
I am running KSM66 3months, takkng a 4 weeks break and then begin with Schisandra
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I'm thinking of running ashwagandha for a while (probably about 4 months), and perhaps rotating between rhodiola and schisandra every few (4-8) weeks. Based on the research I've done, it seems like the effects of schisandra are more similar to rhodiola than ashwagandha.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I'm thinking of running ashwagandha for a while (probably about 4 months), and perhaps rotating between rhodiola and schisandra every few (4-8) weeks. Based on the research I've done, it seems like the effects of schisandra are more similar to rhodiola than ashwagandha.
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I do like anabolic/anti catabolic properties of schisandra (with the right dose ofcourse).
 
Danes said:
Nice :)
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Yeah, but to be fair, I take a ton of sh&t :) - the GABA/5-HTP/ZMA/Melatonin at bed time could be masking something, etc... :) So could my PrWO Ephedrine Hydrochloride :) We are all probably pretty crappy "testers" of this stuff - with all the pills/powders we take, which is why I'm obsessed with research.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Yeah, but to be fair, I take a ton of sh&t :) - the GABA/5-HTP/ZMA/Melatonin at bed time could be masking something, etc... :) So could my PrWO Ephedrine Hydrochloride :) We are all probably pretty crappy "testers" of this stuff - with all the pills/powders we take, which is why I'm obsessed with research.
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Hahah understand.
I know for sure how KSM66 works for me. :) its the only adaptogen I am running at the moment.
 
Danes said:
I do like anabolic/anti catabolic properties of schisandra (with the right dose ofcourse).
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The research on schisandra seems a bit strange to me. Here are some excerpts from an overview of Russian research:
In a study of the effect of SSP on highly qualified gymnasts,
it was established that although initial administrations resulted
in a decrease in working capacity and intensity of training, further
doses significantly increased these capabilities compared with
the initial values (Korolevich and Lupandin, 1967; Lupandin and
Lapajev, 1981). Moreover, the level of intensity of training attained
during SSP treatment remained the same even after administration
of the phytoadaptogen had ceased. Comparable results
were obtained when groups of highly qualified athletes (62 oarsmen)
and non-trained subjects (58 solders) were treated with
SSE (2 g/day). Although physical working capacity (as measured
by the PWC170 test) was augmented in both groups, the increase
in the group of non-trained subjects was observed during the
first days of the study whereas in the group of well-trained athletes
it was observed only after 7 or more days of drug uptake
(Lupandin, 1990a). Similarly, a placebo-controlled study involving
the treatment of a group of basketball players (n = 30) with
SSP (0.5 g/day) revealed that during the first 3 days of drug
administration, the coordination of the movements of the trained
athletes temporarily decreased, but after 6 days their physical
endurance had increased (Levchenko, 1971). Thus, when athletes
were given 90 s to cover as much ground as possible followed
by throwing the ball from under the ring, the distances run
after treatment increased significantly (p < 0.001) by 7 and 13.4 m
versus control in the first and second attempts, respectively. Moreover,
the differences in distance covered between the first and
second attempts decreased from 6.9 m prior to treatment to
0.5 m following administration of SSP. Apparently, no statistically
significant effect was observed with respect to the accuracy of the
throws.
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It almost sounds like what you said you experienced with ashwagandha; negative effects for a few days until your body adjusts.

Improved mental performance with schisandra, especially during times of fatigue/exhaustion (similar to rhodiola) is also interesting.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
The research on schisandra seems a bit strange to me. Here are some excerpts from an overview of Russian research:

It almost sounds like what you said you experienced with ashwagandha; negative effects for a few days until your body adjusts.

Improved mental performance with schisandra, especially during times of fatigue/exhaustion (similar to rhodiola) is also interesting.
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Yea thats very typical with adaptogens. The body need a period Of adjustment before you get most benefits of it
 
I've run schisandra several times solo and it is not bad, but I just feel its not something I'm going to ever keep in rotation.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Haha, of course you were.

20mg schizandrin is the most that the summary of Russian research mentions (3.6, 5, 10, and 20mg schizandrins); what dose are you thinking?
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I am thinking of 3×600mg caps (9% schisandrins) that means 162mg schisandrins :)
 
Danes said:
I am thinking of 3×600mg caps (9% schisandrins) that means 162mg schisandrins :)
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That's quite a dose! There was a study on HORSES that noted improved recovery with 60mg schizandrins:
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With that said, there was also another study on horses that noted some pretty incredible acute effects with a much higher dose (after several calculations, averages, conversions, etc, I think it ended up being about 1.3g schizandrins!) Anyway, in that study, schisandra supplementation decreased (improved) the time of race horses needed complete the 800m by 1.8 seconds, or about 6 horse lengths. Additionally, schisandra reduced heart rate of the horses, as well as accelerated the recovery of respiratory frequency after the race.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
That's quite a dose! There was a study on HORSES that noted improved recovery with 60mg schizandrins:
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With that said, there was also another study on horses that noted some pretty incredible acute effects with a much higher dose (after several calculations, averages, conversions, etc, I think it ended up being about 1.3g schizandrins!) Anyway, in that study, schisandra supplementation decreased (improved) the time of race horses needed complete the 800m by 1.8 seconds, or about 6 horse lengths. Additionally, schisandra reduced heart rate of the horses, as well as accelerated the recovery of respiratory frequency after the race.
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Impressive!

I find this to be very impressive too :)

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So would any of the three interfere with each other if one was to take all of them(rhodiola, schisandra, and ashwaganda)?
 
I've taken KSM-66 for over a year now, been wonderful addition. I cycled off of it for a month just to be safe, but while on it my sleep was wonderfully majestic. KSM-66 + ZMA = GOAT
 
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