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New KSM-66 Study

kisaj said:
For those looking for an extra relaxation boost, try rhodiola/KSM/relora with a cup of coffee. Real nice synergy there and you'd need to get punched in the face to be bothered.
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Closest I've done to that is Caff tabs, KSM+Rhodiola. Haven't tried Relora with that.
 
ma70 said:
Closest I've done to that is Caff tabs, KSM+Rhodiola. Haven't tried Relora with that.
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Relora can be a bit much for some and I like it later in the day as I need some edge in the day. But that stack (minus the coffee, that is for earlier) at about 4:30-5 sets me so nice to unwind in the evening, yet not crash out. I can get dinner going, help my kids with homework, finish up some work, etc and never feel end of day stress.
 
kisaj said:
Relora can be a bit much for some and I like it later in the day as I need some edge in the day. But that stack (minus the coffee, that is for earlier) at about 4:30-5 sets me so nice to unwind in the evening, yet not crash out. I can get dinner going, help my kids with homework, finish up some work, etc and never feel end of day stress.
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I've been really meaning to buy some relora to try again, really enjoyed the original Nimbus Nutrition Reform.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Have you tried taking theanine with your caffeine?

There are less potent extracts (1.5-2.5% withanolide as opposed to the 5% in KSM) that you could look into, either as capsules or a powder if you have a scale.
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Tried theanine with caffeine and it did help. However, just seemed a little crazy to take caffeine to counter the side effects of ashwagabdha and theanine to counter the side effects of caffeine. I'll give ashwagandha and rhodiola a try tomorrow and see if that works without the caffeine.
 
jarrellt67 said:
Tried theanine with caffeine and it did help. However, just seemed a little crazy to take caffeine to counter the side effects of ashwagabdha and theanine to counter the side effects of caffeine. I'll give ashwagandha and rhodiola a try tomorrow and see if that works without the caffeine.
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Theanine and caffeine are synergistic with each other. In my opinion, that's what ingredients in a stack should do; compliment each other and/or lessen the negatives without reducing the benefits. They're all pretty affordable as well, and have their own benefits.
 
It seems like all you guys are interested in adaptogens like Ashwagandha and the like. I made a post a week or two ago about the science behind rhodiola titled "Speedy Science with hbspeed88: Rhodiola Rosea"

I tried to make it as laymen's as possible without leaving behind some of the more interesting science at the biochemical level.
 
jarrellt67 said:
Tried theanine with caffeine and it did help. However, just seemed a little crazy to take caffeine to counter the side effects of ashwagabdha and theanine to counter the side effects of caffeine. I'll give ashwagandha and rhodiola a try tomorrow and see if that works without the caffeine.
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I personally get a different feeling from taking a 2:1 theanine/caffeine supp than just caffeine alone. I love it, and it's super cheap. You can pick pre-made caps up from Powder City for a few bucks. I HIGHLY recommend taking rhodiola and ashwagandha...so much data and hard science behind them.
 
hbspeed88 said:
It seems like all you guys are interested in adaptogens like Ashwagandha and the like. I made a post a week or two ago about the science behind rhodiola titled "Speedy Science with hbspeed88: Rhodiola Rosea"

I tried to make it as laymen's as possible without leaving behind some of the more interesting science at the biochemical level.
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Read that one. Great stuff.
 
hbspeed88 said:
It seems like all you guys are interested in adaptogens like Ashwagandha and the like. I made a post a week or two ago about the science behind rhodiola titled "Speedy Science with hbspeed88: Rhodiola Rosea"

I tried to make it as laymen's as possible without leaving behind some of the more interesting science at the biochemical level.
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Yeah, it was a good read. I compiled a bunch of studies (on healthy human subjects) for reference in the Nootropics section, and included adaptogens like rhodiola and ashwagandha. I didn't really go into why the supplements work though; just more of a resource for people to see what supplements have evidence for being effective for healthy people, what the supplements have been shown to do, and how to dose them.

It's nice to see more interest in nootropics and adaptogens.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Yeah, it was a good read. I compiled a bunch of studies (on healthy human subjects) for reference in the Nootropics section, and included adaptogens like rhodiola and ashwagandha. I didn't really go into why the supplements work though; just more of a resource for people to see what supplements have evidence for being effective for healthy people, what the supplements have been shown to do, and how to dose them.

It's nice to see more interest in nootropics and adaptogens.
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I've looked through your posts on nootropics and it seems like you're quite interested in adaptogens and nootropic use, as am I. Being a biochemistry guy, I'm extremely interested in understanding mechanisms of action at the molecular and biological level. I like to share science with people to help them better understand the power of supplements and mystery of the human body.
 
hbspeed88 said:
I personally get a different feeling from taking a 2:1 theanine/caffeine supp than just caffeine alone. I love it, and it's super cheap. You can pick pre-made caps up from Powder City for a few bucks. I HIGHLY recommend taking rhodiola and ashwagandha...so much data and hard science behind them.
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When taking a 2:1 theanine/caffeine ratio all I noticed was that I wanted to take a nap. However, that was taken at the same time as ashwagandha. A 1:1 ratio was better but even then I didn't notice that much of a difference. Just less tired from the ashwagandha and not as shaky/stimulated as when l-theanine wasn't added.

I started rhodiola and ashwagandha this morning. So, we'll see how it goes. If it's a good combo, I noticed Terry Naturally makes a product called Adaptra which includes both ashwagandha (ksm-66 extract) and rhodiola (5% rosavins and 1.8% salidrosides...according to their website). So, I may just pick that up. I like to keep my stacks as simple (and cheap) as possible. The only problem I really noticed with rhodiola in the past was being over-stimulated and my anxiety (and insomnia) issues getting worse. Otherwise, it was great at reducing fatigue and putting me in a good mood.
 
jarrellt67 said:
When taking a 2:1 theanine/caffeine ratio all I noticed was that I wanted to take a nap. However, that was taken at the same time as ashwagandha. A 1:1 ratio was better but even then I didn't notice that much of a difference. Just less tired from the ashwagandha and not as shaky/stimulated as when l-theanine wasn't added.

I started rhodiola and ashwagandha this morning. So, we'll see how it goes. If it's a good combo, I noticed Terry Naturally makes a product called Adaptra which includes both ashwagandha (ksm-66 extract) and rhodiola (5% rosavins and 1.8% salidrosides...according to their website). So, I may just pick that up. I like to keep my stacks as simple (and cheap) as possible. The only problem I really noticed with rhodiola in the past was being over-stimulated and my anxiety (and insomnia) issues getting worse. Otherwise, it was great at reducing fatigue and putting me in a good mood.
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Hmm...interesting. For me, I don't particularly take ashwagandha and rhodiola for the supposed anxiety-reducing effects, rather for the stuff you can't necessarily "feel". There's some fascinating and solid data out there on the bioactives in ash and rhodiola working at the molecular level. Some quite intriguing stuff on the genes they regulate/deregulate, promotion of neurogenesis, dendrite branching increases, decreased neural inflammation, stopping and reversing beta-amyloid peptide plaque growth (main cause of Alzheimer's disease), healing of neurons and cells after oxidative damage...the list goes on and on with this stuff. I came across a study that looked at hundreds of genes and the effects that rhodiola extract had on them.
 
bioman said:
Will probably switch to Swanson KSM-66 instead of the NutriGold brand due to the fact the latter has the most overkill packaging I've ever seen..ie a 1liter box for a tiny bottle.

Took a break from the KSM and could definitely tell the difference. Goes well with CBD.
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CBD?
 
hbspeed88 said:
Hmm...interesting. For me, I don't particularly take ashwagandha and rhodiola for the supposed anxiety-reducing effects, rather for the stuff you can't necessarily "feel". There's some fascinating and solid data out there on the bioactives in ash and rhodiola working at the molecular level. Some quite intriguing stuff on the genes they regulate/deregulate, promotion of neurogenesis, dendrite branching increases, decreased neural inflammation, stopping and reversing beta-amyloid peptide plaque growth (main cause of Alzheimer's disease), healing of neurons and cells after oxidative damage...the list goes on and on with this stuff. I came across a study that looked at hundreds of genes and the effects that rhodiola extract had on them.
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Of the two (ashwagandha and rhodiola) which have you found based on your research to have the better long-term effects? After another very limited night of sleep (my toddler has decided I'm the only one that can comfort him every night for the last two weeks when he wakes multiple times each night from bad dreams or something), I'm wondering if maybe I should just stick with rhodiola to help with energy levels (even if it does increase anxiety some) so I can actually get something done at work.

edit: Sorry, please ignore my question. I just realized it's very vague and would be difficult to answer without specifying which long-term effects a person was wanting.
 
jarrellt67 said:
When taking a 2:1 theanine/caffeine ratio all I noticed was that I wanted to take a nap. However, that was taken at the same time as ashwagandha. A 1:1 ratio was better but even then I didn't notice that much of a difference. Just less tired from the ashwagandha and not as shaky/stimulated as when l-theanine wasn't added.

I started rhodiola and ashwagandha this morning. So, we'll see how it goes. If it's a good combo, I noticed Terry Naturally makes a product called Adaptra which includes both ashwagandha (ksm-66 extract) and rhodiola (5% rosavins and 1.8% salidrosides...according to their website). So, I may just pick that up. I like to keep my stacks as simple (and cheap) as possible. The only problem I really noticed with rhodiola in the past was being over-stimulated and my anxiety (and insomnia) issues getting worse. Otherwise, it was great at reducing fatigue and putting me in a good mood.
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Seems a bit expensive to me.
 
jarrellt67 said:
Of the two (ashwagandha and rhodiola) which have you found based on your research to have the better long-term effects? After another very limited night of sleep (my toddler has decided I'm the only one that can comfort him every night for the last two weeks when he wakes multiple times each night from bad dreams or something), I'm wondering if maybe I should just stick with rhodiola to help with energy levels (even if it does increase anxiety some) so I can actually get something done at work.

edit: Sorry, please ignore my question. I just realized it's very vague and would be difficult to answer without specifying which long-term effects a person was wanting.
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Studies are still ongoing with the seemingly infinite world of adaptogens and natural medicine. From all the data I've seen, it seems to me that taking ashwagandha and rhodiola are both great for long-term effects and health benefits. These aren't necessarily things that help you 30 mins after ingestion (say, like caffeine). I would classify adaptogens as "alternative medicine" or "preventative medicine"; they are things you take over periods of time to help prevent ailments and health issues and put more life in your years as well as some years in your life. They are both safe and have tons of data behind them.
 
just picked up some NOW Rhodiola and Equivalent Pharmaceuticals KSM. Looking forward to these becoming staples
 
cubs1987 said:
just picked up some NOW Rhodiola and Equivalent Pharmaceuticals KSM. Looking forward to these becoming staples
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I recommend rhodiola and ashwagandha to nearly everyone I know. IMO, they should be a staple in anyone looking to improve overall health. Bodybuilder, businessman, mother, father, student, engineer...they're something everyone can use. There's absolutely no reason people shouldn't use them. You can pick up bottles of 60 caps of standardized extracts for under $10 in most cases, no adverse side effects, etc.
 
hbspeed88 said:
I recommend rhodiola and ashwagandha to nearly everyone I know. IMO, they should be a staple in anyone looking to improve overall health. Bodybuilder, businessman, mother, father, student, engineer...they're something everyone can use. There's absolutely no reason people shouldn't use them. You can pick up bottles of 60 caps of standardized extracts for under $10 in most cases, no adverse side effects, etc.
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Btw just looked at Perform Kinetics... big fan of the profile (and it includes rhodiola).
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Seems a bit expensive to me.
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It's not too bad if you don't buy it from their website. I found it online last night for about $0.45/capsule. For me, that's about the same cost as taking both rhodiola ($0.25/capsule for Gaia Herbs) and ashwagandha ($0.15/capsule for Jarrow's KSM-66) with an assumed similar dosage (hard to say for sure with it being a proprietary formula).
 
cubs1987 said:
Btw just looked at Perform Kinetics... big fan of the profile (and it includes rhodiola).
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Glad to hear bud! We love the profile as well; we worked hard on it to have it be a solid, comprehensive pre. We have some exciting things in the works, so be on the lookout.

Also, we are running a special where if you buy one Perform Kinetics on our website, we'll send two prototype tubs along with it. Profile is exactly the same in prototypes, but the taste is a bit off from the final version.
 
hbspeed88 said:
Glad to hear bud! We love the profile as well; we worked hard on it to have it be a solid, comprehensive pre. We have some exciting things in the works, so be on the lookout.

Also, we are running a special where if you buy one Perform Kinetics on our website, we'll send two prototype tubs along with it. Profile is exactly the same in prototypes, but the taste is a bit off from the final version.
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Well sh!t. I will be making a purchase today. Sorry for derail
 
avega17 said:
hbspeed88

What are your thoughts on cycling ash and rhodiola?
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I haven't come across any data that suggests that you should cycle these two adaptogens. As far as I have read (which is a lot), you can safely take these every day or as needed for preventative measures and optimizing health. One particular study showed neuronal cell growth increases after 7 days of continued use of ashwagandha, suggesting that effects take place after optimal dosing for longer periods of time.

These adaptogens are being heavily studied as treatments for a variety of diseases, and are showing a TON of promise.
 
avega17 said:
kisaj

You smoke/eat edibles of marihuana with a high CBD %, or you get some sort of extract?
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Typically it will be an edible or vaped since it is being used for medicinal purposes. Depending on the desired outcome, there are strains that are modified for higher cbd levels, or you can get pure oil.
 
bb333 said:
HANOJU
Ashwagandha Organic Powder

The brand is good?
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Never heard of that brand before.

I would just stick with a reputable, patented, standardized ashwagandha extract like KSM-66® or Sensoril®. You can pick up a bottle of 60 caps from Jarrow formulas (uses KSM-66) or Life Extension (Sensoril) for ~$10.
 
hbspeed88 said:
Never heard of that brand before.

I would just stick with a reputable, patented, standardized ashwagandha extract like KSM-66® or Sensoril®. You can pick up a bottle of 60 caps from Jarrow formulas (uses KSM-66) or Life Extension (Sensoril) for ~$10.
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Brand AMAZON SEEDS ?
 
hbspeed88 said:
I haven't come across any data that suggests that you should cycle these two adaptogens. As far as I have read (which is a lot), you can safely take these every day or as needed for preventative measures and optimizing health. One particular study showed neuronal cell growth increases after 7 days of continued use of ashwagandha, suggesting that effects take place after optimal dosing for longer periods of time.

These adaptogens are being heavily studied as treatments for a variety of diseases, and are showing a TON of promise.
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As far as tolerance build up though, is there any data?
 
avega17 said:
kisaj

You smoke/eat edibles of marihuana with a high CBD %, or you get some sort of extract?
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Tinctures with at least 250mg CBD/bottle are decent but the oral bioavailability is said to be low. I find they work pretty well but CBD vaping seems to be the best, IMO, as you can get the highest CBD blood levels..but then you are inhaling questionable substances which I am a little uneasy about. The pain relief effects are more profound with vaping in my experience.

CBD seems to work nicely with KSM-66...nice pain relief and anxiety reduction without any sort of mental impairment.
 
avega17 said:
As far as tolerance build up though, is there any data?
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As far as I have seen, there isn't any data indicating that people build a tolerance. These aren't like stimulants or anything like that. It's kind of like taking a fish oil, there's not really a "tolerance" curve there. You just take the same dosages every day as a preventative measure and to optimize health. You don't have to up the dosage on fish oils per se. Same goes here
 
kisaj said:
Oddly enough, going with a higher salidroside (dopamingeric) made me uncomfortable, yet l-tyrosine sets me perfect.
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I've found that high percentage of salidrosides is better for me when looking for a more immediate boost, but even then, it's a very clean energy for me. Otherwise 3% rosavins 1% salidrosides is the highest ratio of rosavins to salidrosides I can tolerate before it just makes me want to nap. Equal amounts of both seems best of both worlds, IME.
 
hbspeed88 said:
Hmm...interesting. For me, I don't particularly take ashwagandha and rhodiola for the supposed anxiety-reducing effects, rather for the stuff you can't necessarily "feel". There's some fascinating and solid data out there on the bioactives in ash and rhodiola working at the molecular level. Some quite intriguing stuff on the genes they regulate/deregulate, promotion of neurogenesis, dendrite branching increases, decreased neural inflammation, stopping and reversing beta-amyloid peptide plaque growth (main cause of Alzheimer's disease), healing of neurons and cells after oxidative damage...the list goes on and on with this stuff. I came across a study that looked at hundreds of genes and the effects that rhodiola extract had on them.
Click to expand...

I think the ksm-66 extract is just too strong for me at the regular 300 mg doses found in supplements. Not even rhodiola can overpower the sedative/lethargic effects. I'll need to either split the ksm-66 dose in half or find a weaker extract. Hopefully a lower dose or weaker extract will be just as effective on my social anxiety (300 mg, twice a day, of ksm-66 is awesome for that...I feel no stress or anxiety in social situations when I take it).
 
Ive been taking ashwaghanda for a few months now. Mine is extracted for 2.5% withanolides. I don't see that extract being mentioned. Should i find a different brand?
 
jarrellt67 said:
I think the ksm-66 extract is just too strong for me at the regular 300 mg doses found in supplements. Not even rhodiola can overpower the sedative/lethargic effects. I'll need to either split the ksm-66 dose in half or find a weaker extract. Hopefully a lower dose or weaker extract will be just as effective on my social anxiety (300 mg, twice a day, of ksm-66 is awesome for that...I feel no stress or anxiety in social situations when I take it).
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Ultimate T which has ksm-66 makes my eyes feel really tired almost as if I took Benadryl. Nothing a little caffeine can't fix for me.
 
jswain34 said:
Ive been taking ashwaghanda for a few months now. Mine is extracted for 2.5% withanolides. I don't see that extract being mentioned. Should i find a different brand?
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That is just a common ashwagandha extract. If it is working for you, then that's great. I used 2.5% for many years and then moved over to KSM66. For me, the effect is subtle, but I do notice a difference, mainly in length of time. I can take 1 KSM66 in the morning and be great all day.
 
kisaj said:
That is just a common ashwagandha extract. If it is working for you, then that's great. I used 2.5% for many years and then moved over to KSM66. For me, the effect is subtle, but I do notice a difference, mainly in length of time. I can take 1 KSM66 in the morning and be great all day.
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Thanks.

What is the difference in effects you guys are experiencing with the salidrosides and rosavins? What's the difference in those vs the withanolides mine contains? I'll google too, just wondering you guys' opinions. If you can refer to a post where this was already covered id be happy to just go back and read that too.
 
You are comparing rhodiola to ashwagandha. Higher rosavins are serotonergic while higher salidrosides are dopaminergic. The 3:1 ratio has been found to be the favorable ratio and the standard. Altering these in either direction provides the effects sought after.

Withanolides are the active ingredient in ashwagandha.
 
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