Need some brutally honest advice. Debating UGL trt

[Cjvikings24]

For some background when I was 18 (now 20 almost 21) I messed around and stupidly did a couple of prohormone cycles of something INCREDIBLY weak, and yet my test hasn’t been over 385 since. I have done multiple bloods and at the lowest it was 218. I was idiotic and didn’t take PCT because you know I was 18 and invincible… 2-3 months after getting off I had a noticeable amount of fat gain around my waist despite my weight only going up 3-4 lbs. I looked watery everywhere and felt weak. I couldn’t put on mass or lose any fat (currently still struggling with this). Anyways 5 months after I got prescribed TRT (How? **** if I know) and felt incredibly better after 2 months and lost most of the fat around my waist and remained the same weight. After 4 months my doctor “left” the clinic and the new doc came in and told me they were taking me off of it, understandably so. The protocol was good and I felt fine for a few months after due to HCG and chlomid. And actually impregnated my girlfriend while on those doses. My test was around 500 and I felt fine. A few months goes by and I’m right back to where I was. My test has fluctuated from 266-385 ever since I got off. Mentally I’m “okay” I have my ups and downs. Physically I could be WAY better. I get a little stronger but it feels as if all of my efforts go to waste. Keep in mind it’s been about a year and 8 months since getting off TRT. I’ve tried all the vitamins in the world and my diet is good. Any advice on what to do?

 

[Cjvikings24]

And I didn’t list all of the symptoms because you could probably guess… Fatigue, brain fog, ED, yadayadayada

 

[Rad83]

Seems like you were legitimately prescribed….Did your new doctor even consult with you/do bloodwork?

I wouldn’t have put up with that shitt.

 

[Cjvikings24]

Seems like you were legitimately prescribed….Did your new doctor even consult with you/do bloodwork?

I wouldn’t have put up with that shitt.

Nope. He thought it was unethical to continue giving me testosterone at my age which if judging a book by it’s cover I completely understand. Any doctor I go to now won’t even give it a thought. If I go to a doc I know they’ll say “didn’t you just have a child?” Yep Sherlock Holmes I did. But now my test is below baseline and has been so idk what they’re thinking by not even going alternative routes

 

[Rad83]

…I’d look for a new doc. Keep searching til you find someone that understands you…I would want to try another ‘re-start’
21 is very young to be on TRT and then to have to rely on ugl….

 

[PhantomReaper]

I'd do everything humanly possible to get your Natural levels back up...
Age is on your side..!!
Research the Hell out of it before committing to lifetime TRT at your age...
I'm just not up on all the PCT stuff anymore..
Z...

 

[Cjvikings24]

…I’d look for a new doc. Keep searching til you find someone that understands you…I would want to try another ‘re-start’
21 is very young to be on TRT and then to have to rely on ugl….

I understand the risks involved and I’d like to think I’m not one of these 21 year olds who wants to start because “they’re fatigued” I made mistakes I regret and simply want to feel normal. I could give a **** less about getting jacked out of my mind I just higher quality of life and to be able to enjoy the process without second guessing myself. I’ve put on zero muscle since I got off and I’ve busted my ass. And UGL is not something I want to rely on, I just don’t know where to turn. Thanks for your input!

 

[Cjvikings24]

I'd do everything humanly possible to get your Natural levels back up...
Age is on your side..!!
Research the Hell out of it before committing to lifetime TRT at your age...
I'm just not up on all the PCT stuff anymore..
Z...

I hear ya. I’ve tried every single goddamn vitamin you could think of, every diet, training method, lifestyle changes (Andrew Hubermans stuff). Chlomid and HCG obviously worked for me but that’s only short term and not something I can rely on. Thanks for your response!

 

[Rad83]

Low T is a lot more common now in younger generations….I’m not convinced at all that a couple ‘weak ph’ cycles are the root of your situation

 

[Cjvikings24]

Low T is a lot more common now in younger generations….I’m not convinced at all that a couple ‘weak ph’ cycles are the root of your situation

It may not be. But the timing is undeniable. If anything I’m just a horrible responder or it kickstarted underlying issues

 

[EpiStrong]

Enclom for a few months then cycle off back on. Its clomid without the emotional sides. Personally I'd take this approach first before delving into a lifetime of injections.

 

[Cjvikings24]

Enclom for a few months then cycle off back on. Its clomid without the emotional sides. Personally I'd take this approach first before delving into a lifetime of injections.

Dosage? Cycle off for how long and then how long should I stay back on? Thanks for the advice!

 

[EpiStrong]

I'd gauge it on your past labs. How long until the clomid stopped working for yourself. I've seen a few others report similar experiences of it putting them at higher reference but slowly, over time returning to base. It may work for you, it may or not be not be a permanent fix. hrt is a lifelong decision and if I was just trying to be an average Joe I would try other routes before making the jump... also finding another doctor like said should be a priority

 

[Cjvikings24]

I'd gauge it on your past labs. How long until the clomid stopped working for yourself. I've seen a few others report similar experiences of it putting them at higher reference but slowly, over time returning to base. It may work for you, it may or not be not be a permanent fix. hrt is a lifelong decision and if I was just trying to be an average Joe I would try other routes before making the jump... also finding another doctor like said should be a priority

Appreciate it

 

[Dustin07]

If I go to a doc I know they’ll say “didn’t you just have a child?”

how recently ? your newborn can effect your hormones too, any change in E?

maybe try a natty booster like XPG Alpha Gel until you can get back on TRT. ?

 

[Stacks1]

Did you have your test checked before you started using PHs? If so, what was it? You're very young to be on TRT. Not saying you can't or shouldn't but I would want to explore my other options first to see if I can get my test up. If not, then it is what it is.

 

[Smont]

Hcg and enclomiphene

 

[BCseacow83]

1. How long were you on actual TRT? Doses?

2. How long were you on the Dr. prescribed "pct" of clomid and hcg? Doses of those two used?

3. How long has it been since you stopped the TRT?

4. How long has it been since you stopped the hcg/clomid?

 

[Cjvikings24]

1. How long were you on actual TRT? Doses?

2. How long were you on the Dr. prescribed "pct" of clomid and hcg? Doses of those two used?

3. How long has it been since you stopped the TRT?

4. How long has it been since you stopped the hcg/clomid?

1. I was on TRT for 4 months starting at 100mg/wk and bumped it to 140 after the first month.

2. I was on chlomid for 2 1/2 months and I believe it was 25 mg every 3 days. I was weened off of HCG.

3. I have been completely off since late January of 2022. This last year I’ve tried remaining positive thinking about my age and that I’ll be able to recover.

4. Officially off of the chlomid/HCG since late April of 2022

 

[Cjvikings24]

how recently ? your newborn can effect your hormones too, any change in E?

maybe try a natty booster like XPG Alpha Gel until you can get back on TRT. ?

She is 6 months old. Symptoms have been consistent since last July when we found out. I’ve done every natural “test booster” you can think of. And my estrogen is has fluctuated from 13-29 in every lab I’ve done. I am still looking for doctors and getting opinions.

 

[Cjvikings24]

Hcg and enclomiphene

Could you elaborate or give suggested dose and/or length of using?

 

[Cjvikings24]

Did you have your test checked before you started using PHs? If so, what was it? You're very young to be on TRT. Not saying you can't or shouldn't but I would want to explore my other options first to see if I can get my test up. If not, then it is what it is.

I had never gotten them checked before. I was too stupid to know what to do properly. I’ve tried everything to get my test back up. This isn’t a mere attempt to get higher test to get jacked. Thanks for the response!

 

[MrKleen73]

So what are your current levels? If 266 shouldn't be that hard to find someone to give you TRT, and even easier to get them to get you on an enclomiphene regiment. My TRT Dr wanted to put me on it and remove me from my injections and just leave me on the enclomiphene permanently, so that might be a good option for you as opposed to testosterone injections. Seems something a doctor would be a lot more likely to be okay putting you on.

 

[Cjvikings24]

So what are your current levels? If 266 shouldn't be that hard to find someone to give you TRT, and even easier to get them to get you on an enclomiphene regiment. My TRT Dr wanted to put me on it and remove me from my injections and just leave me on the enclomiphene permanently, so that might be a good option for you as opposed to testosterone injections. Seems something a doctor would be a lot more likely to be okay putting you on.

Levels are 385 last time I got checked

 

[MrKleen73]

Levels are 385 last time I got checked

Yeah that is within the reference range, so it is going to be very hard to get on TRT of any kind especially at your age.

You should be able to get a good Dr to put you on enclomiphene to try to improve your levels. If not, then try to get it elsewhere. I am with everyone else here in the thought you should do your best to actually recover your HPTA at your age.

 

[PhantomReaper]

TRT at your age..will neither be fun or good for you..!!
Z...

 

[Smont]

So what are your current levels? If 266 shouldn't be that hard to find someone to give you TRT, and even easier to get them to get you on an enclomiphene regiment. My TRT Dr wanted to put me on it and remove me from my injections and just leave me on the enclomiphene permanently, so that might be a good option for you as opposed to testosterone injections. Seems something a doctor would be a lot more likely to be okay putting you on.

If a Dr. Tried to put me on a serm permanently I'd find a new dr. I know enclomiphene is supposed to be the improved version and so far I'm starting to be persuaded that enclo might be very valuable to a lot of ppl for various things above and beyond clomid and nolva, but we still don't know what the effects of long-term enclo use are. We know the other serms all carry a risk of blood clots and strokes. Enclo very well may be just the same amongst other things. Maybe I'm just to opinionated on the topic but I don't feel like anything besides testosterone is a long term solution for low test. At least not yet I'm not convinced

 

[Smont]

Could you elaborate or give suggested dose and/or length of using?

1st. I'm not a doctor and this is not a suggestion to you. It's just what I would do.

The reason you conceived on hcg and clomid is because there also fertility drugs. If I was self treating this situation and wanted to avoid testosterone (which I'd just use the testosterone personally) I'd do a high frequency hcg injection schedule. Eod with 500-1000iu and then follow that up with 25mg enclomiphene daily for 2 weeks and then 12.5 for another month. I'd get bloodwork and reasses.


Here's the problem. When I originally made the post I didn't see that you did pct, I thought you said you didn't. So what doses of hcg and clomid did you use and for how long. If you tried did a restart or pct and you couldn't Maintain those numbers then you might be pissin in the wind

 

[Cjvikings24]

1st. I'm not a doctor and this is not a suggestion to you. It's just what I would do.

The reason you conceived on hcg and clomid is because there also fertility drugs. If I was self treating this situation and wanted to avoid testosterone (which I'd just use the testosterone personally) I'd do a high frequency hcg injection schedule. Eod with 500-1000iu and then follow that up with 25mg enclomiphene daily for 2 weeks and then 12.5 for another month. I'd get bloodwork and reasses.


Here's the problem. When I originally made the post I didn't see that you did pct, I thought you said you didn't. So what doses of hcg and clomid did you use and for how long. If you tried did a restart or pct and you couldn't Maintain those numbers then you might be pissin in the wind

That last sentence you typed is the reason I’m considering TRT again. I’ve tried everything and I don’t see it getting better. Thanks for the response

 

[Cjvikings24]

TRT at your age..will neither be fun or good for you..!!
Z...

It’s never crossed my mind as being fun. It wasn’t fun the last time I was on it. I’m not doing this just for the hell of it

 

[Smont]

TRT at your age..will neither be fun or good for you..!!
Z...

What about being on trt is (not good for you???) Because I highly disagree, that doesn't mean trt will make you more healthy (but it probably will make him more health). Having low test levels like a 70 year old when your in your 20's is not fun or good for you.

We're men, men function best on testosterone because it's our body's natural hormone. If your test was 200 and you take testosterone to get it to 700 or 900 ect, what's unhealthy about that?

 

[Cjvikings24]

What about being on trt is (not good for you???) Because I highly disagree, that doesn't mean trt will make you more healthy (but it probably will make him more health). Having low test levels like a 70 year old when your in your 20's is not fun or good for you.

We're men, men function best on testosterone because it's our body's natural hormone. If your test was 200 and you take testosterone to get it to 700 or 900 ect, what's unhealthy about that?

Thank you. I’m tired of hearing that’s it’s gonna kill me to go up 600 points in test

 

[Smont]

It’s never crossed my mind as being fun. It wasn’t fun the last time I was on it. I’m not doing this just for the hell of it

What were the problems you had on testosterone? I'm still in favor of exploring other routes and not being on trt for life at 20, but it may be a necessity and your issues might have been as simple as dialing everything ib which can take months and months to do.

Even 100mg 1x a week should put most ppl in range with test and estrogen

Thank you. I’m tired of hearing that’s it’s gonna kill me to go up 600 points in test

You know what the health concerns of low testosterone are.....

Prostate cancer
Erectile dysfunction
Diabetes/insulin resistance
Muscle loss
Fat gain
Depression
And there's 100 more.

Trt can eliminate many of the issues

 

[Cjvikings24]

TRT at your age..will neither be fun or good for you..!!
Z...

To second Smont’s reply. How is it considered horrible compared to taking at least double if not more of T on a cycle not including everything else. If I wanted to do steroids… I would do steroids. I’m interested in feeling better physically and mentally so I can be the best version of myself, especially for my daughter

 

[Smont]

There's a massive difference between trt and steroid abuse. But lots of ppl like to lump trt and blasting steroids into the same category and its not. That's like comparing someone who has a glass or 2 of wine on a Friday night to a someone who has 20 drinks a day. One is irrelevant and possibly has a few benifits, even if only just mentally a benifit from unwinding at the end of the day and the other is a unhealthy habit

 

[Cjvikings24]

What were the problems you had on testosterone? I'm still in favor of exploring other routes and not being on trt for life at 20, but it may be a necessity and your issues might have been as simple as dialing everything ib which can take months and months to do.

Even 100mg 1x a week should put most ppl in range with test and estrogen

You know what the health concerns of low testosterone are.....

Prostate cancer
Erectile dysfunction
Diabetes/insulin resistance
Muscle loss
Fat gain
Depression
And there's 100 more.

Trt can eliminate many of the issues

Those are typically the risks involved with taking Testosterone too according to my doctors. I personally didn’t have any issues…. When my doctor left and the other doctor stepped in he thought it was unethical to continue to treat me so he pulled me off

 

[Smont]

Those are typically the risks involved with taking Testosterone too according to my doctors. I personally didn’t have any issues…. When my doctor left and the other doctor stepped in he thought it was unethical to continue to treat me so he pulled me off

It's nonsense for the most part. There's literally millions and millions of very happy healthy people on trt. Sounds like your letting a primary care Dr. Handle trt and that's usually a flop because they don't actually teach you anything about testosterone in med school, at least not anything important. You need to see endo or someone more fitting to handle the problem. You wouldn't go to a lawyer for nutrition advice so why go to primary physician for trt.

 

[Cjvikings24]

There's a massive difference between trt and steroid abuse. But lots of ppl like to lump trt and blasting steroids into the same category and its not. That's like comparing someone who has a glass or 2 of wine on a Friday night to a someone who has 20 drinks a day. One is irrelevant and possibly has a few benifits, even if only just mentally a benifit from unwinding at the end of the day and the other is a unhealthy habit

It’s very infuriating. I know that most people don’t get shutdown from prohormones long term but I truly believe I am a **** responder. I’ve done everything right in order to fully reco

What were the problems you had on testosterone? I'm still in favor of exploring other routes and not being on trt for life at 20, but it may be a necessity and your issues might have been as simple as dialing everything ib which can take months and months to do.

Even 100mg 1x a week should put most ppl in range with test and estrogen

You know what the health concerns of low testosterone are.....

Prostate cancer
Erectile dysfunction
Diabetes/insulin resistance
Muscle loss
Fat gain
Depression
And there's 100 more.

Trt can eliminate many of the issues

I never got bloods done before I used PH’s but I have had my finger pricked for glucose levels and I always ranged in the high 70’s low 80’s. Since I took that stuff my levels have been no lower than 95. When I was on TRT my levels went back to 76-87 and then skyrocketed again coming off

 

[Cjvikings24]

It's nonsense for the most part. There's literally millions and millions of very happy healthy people on trt. Sounds like your letting a primary care Dr. Handle trt and that's usually a flop because they don't actually teach you anything about testosterone in med school, at least not anything important. You need to see endo or someone more fitting to handle the problem. You wouldn't go to a lawyer for nutrition advice so why go to primary physician for trt.

I needed a referral to an endo from my PCP…. Wouldn’t write me a referral

 

[Smont]

It’s very infuriating. I know that most people don’t get shutdown from prohormones long term but I truly believe I am a **** responder. I’ve done everything right in order to fully reco

I never got bloods done before I used PH’s but I have had my finger pricked for glucose levels and I always ranged in the high 70’s low 80’s. Since I took that stuff my levels have been no lower than 95. When I was on TRT my levels went back to 76-87 and then skyrocketed again coming off

The stuff your saying above dosent really make sense, you don't quite understand how things work. Being a **** responder to gear means you don't grow, it has nothing to do with recovering testosterone. If a cycle or some prohormone shut you down and you can't recover then yiu were already on your way to low t at a young age.

 

[Smont]

I needed a referral to an endo from my PCP…. Wouldn’t write me a referral

Tell them you want a referral or you will be finding a new pcp

 

[Cjvikings24]

The stuff your saying above dosent really make sense, you don't quite understand how things work. Being a **** responder to gear means you don't grow, it has nothing to do with recovering testosterone. If a cycle or some prohormone shut you down and you can't recover then yiu were already on your way to low t at a young age.

That’s what I was getting at. Wrong way of saying it lol

 

[Cjvikings24]

Tell them you want a referral or you will be finding a new pcp

Guess that’s my only option

 

[Stacks1]

The stuff your saying above dosent really make sense, you don't quite understand how things work. Being a **** responder to gear means you don't grow, it has nothing to do with recovering testosterone. If a cycle or some prohormone shut you down and you can't recover then yiu were already on your way to low t at a young age.

We can't really say with 100% certainty it was even the PH that was the root cause of his low T since he didn't have bloods done before it. Very possible... but cannot say with certainty. So, you're right. I think he was likely on his way... but who knows now.

Nevertheless, it doesn't change the actual issue at hand right now. Like I said, at 20 years old, I would want to explore whatever options I can to get my test up without having to go straight to TRT. But like I said... if it doesn't work then it is what it is.

OP - while you might be infuriated with your physician, I do not believe it is that uncommon for a doctor to refuse a 20 year old TRT with test of 385. Like I said in another thread, I know of a TRT clinic who refuses anyone under the age of 30 or 35 (can't remember which it was). Your other option is to simply find another doctor.

 

[Cjvikings24]

We can't really say with 100% certainty it was even the PH that was the root cause of his low T since he didn't have bloods done before it. Very possible... but cannot say with certainty. So, you're right. I think he was likely on his way... but who knows now.

Nevertheless, it doesn't change the actual issue at hand right now. Like I said, at 20 years old, I would want to explore whatever options I can to get my test up without having to go straight to TRT. But like I said... if it doesn't work then it is what it is.

OP - while you might be infuriated with your physician, I do not believe it is that uncommon for a doctor to refuse a 20 year old TRT with test of 385. Like I said in another thread, I know of a TRT clinic who refuses anyone under the age of 30 or 35 (can't remember which it was). Your other option is to simply find another doctor.

I’m not infuriated. I was upset that he wouldn’t refer me to an endo. I totally understood why my trt doc pulled me off

 

[PhantomReaper]

Smout...
I'm not disagreeing with You...
But, my take is this..for the OP..
At 21...
He will have major changes at 40,45 and 50..
We know how that works..lol
He will have to stay on top of things during those major changes..
Prostate will enlarge..
Scar tissue WILL be a huge issue..
Medical..constant battle with PCP...on TRT
Donating Blood..high RBC..
Heart will probably be enlarged..

I mean at 21...
Damn that a lot of pins and decades on Test...
Chances of infections, PIP...
Do I really need to continue...???
There WILL be problems...Period..!!
That's why I suggested doing everything humanly possible to restore his natural levels..

The good thing about Forum's..and different Opinions...
Mature guys like You and I...
Can disagreeing without getting pissy..
Agree to Disagree..
Different view points..

Nothing But Respect for You..Smout..!!
Z...

 

[Cjvikings24]

Smout...
I'm not disagreeing with You...
But, my take is this..for the OP..
At 21...
He will have major changes at 40,45 and 50..
We know how that works..lol
He will have to stay on top of things during those major changes..
Prostate will enlarge..
Scar tissue WILL be a huge issue..
Medical..constant battle with PCP...on TRT
Donating Blood..high RBC..
Heart will probably be enlarged..

I mean at 21...
Damn that a lot of pins and decades on Test...
Chances of infections, PIP...
Do I really need to continue...???
There WILL be problems...Period..!!
That's why I suggested doing everything humanly possible to restore his natural levels..

The good thing about Forum's..and different Opinions...
Mature guys like You and I...
Can disagreeing without getting pissy..
Agree to Disagree..
Different view points..

Nothing But Respect for You..Smout..!!
Z...

Thanks for your honest opinion! I’m currently trying to see if my doc will prescribe HCG to see how that works

 

[PhantomReaper]

Thanks for your honest opinion! I’m currently trying to see if my doc will prescribe HCG to see how that works

Just want you to see both perspectives..
TRT is better than low T..but comes with it's share of problems too..
Z...

 

[Rad83]

For ‘shitz and giggles’ I wanted to put myself in op’s shoes for a second…I looked at the endocrinology department of the health coverage I belong to.

…Yeah, they say “don’t judge a book by it’s cover” but I could not imagine a single one of these people knowing fukk all about testosterone. (Yeah I know endocrinology entails more than just hypogonadism and optimizing men isnt their priority in todays world….) The male doctors were either skinny, skinny-fat, and a couple obese. None of their bios mentioned weightlifting, training or anything similar,…in their hobbies/interests section.

It reminded me of when I was 34 and was assigned an upright Indian woman as my doc. in a different practice….I had to plead just to have my total test included on that bloodwork. (I thought theyd at least include free’ too but didn’t) She said, “ok fine, but I’m not prescribing hormones”

 

[PhantomReaper]

For ‘shitz and giggles’ I wanted to put myself in op’s shoes for a second…I looked at the endocrinology department of the health coverage I belong to.

…Yeah, they say “don’t judge a book by it’s cover” but I could not imagine a single one of these people knowing fukk all about testosterone. (Yeah I know endocrinology entails more than just hypogonadism and optimizing men isnt their priority in todays world….) The male doctors were either skinny, skinny-fat, and a couple obese. None of their bios mentioned weightlifting, training or anything similar,…in their hobbies/interests section.

It reminded me of when I was 34 and was assigned an upright Indian woman as my doc. in a different practice….I had to plead just to have my total test included on that bloodwork. (I thought theyd at least include free’ too but didn’t) She said, “ok fine, but I’m not prescribing hormones”

The Best Option for the OP..
Self administration of TRT,but whenever a Dr. pulls Test Levels..Red Flag is coming..!!
I'm about to have that problem myself..
But, I'm 57...
Imagine having to go through this for 40 yrs..!!
Z...